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Author Topic: ATM Question  (Read 2206 times)

lonewolf0409

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ATM Question
« on: 15 July 2011, 00:15:52 »
Are ATMs capable of indirect fire or just direct fire?

DarkISI

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Re: ATM Question
« Reply #1 on: 15 July 2011, 00:29:26 »
Only direct fire
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Re: ATM Question
« Reply #2 on: 15 July 2011, 01:31:03 »
Only direct fire

Which is one of many reasons that I find the notion that they're "flexible" laughable. Short comparison between Clan LRMs and ATMs:

1) Roughly the same damage per ton of launcher at most ranges except 1-3 where ATMs and short range ammunition rule (and ranges so extreme that the ATM rarely hits anyway)

2) ATMs cannot fire indirectly; Clan LRMs can

3) Clan LRMs can achieve all the above with 1 ammo type; ATMs can only achieve half of the above with 3 ammo types

4) ATMs cannot fire special ammo (mines, smoke, etc.); Clan LRMs can

When you need 3 different tons of ammo to get less than half the job done...
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Jellico

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Re: ATM Question
« Reply #3 on: 15 July 2011, 02:26:40 »
But if you have the right card and pin, ATMs give you CBills.


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Re: ATM Question
« Reply #4 on: 15 July 2011, 05:48:01 »
Which is one of many reasons that I find the notion that they're "flexible" laughable. Short comparison between Clan LRMs and ATMs:

1) Roughly the same damage per ton of launcher at most ranges except 1-3 where ATMs and short range ammunition rule (and ranges so extreme that the ATM rarely hits anyway)

2) ATMs cannot fire indirectly; Clan LRMs can

3) Clan LRMs can achieve all the above with 1 ammo type; ATMs can only achieve half of the above with 3 ammo types

4) ATMs cannot fire special ammo (mines, smoke, etc.); Clan LRMs can

When you need 3 different tons of ammo to get less than half the job done...

All your points are extremely true. The one factor I see going for the ATM is that you can drop the hammer at close range, while still retaining some long range capacity. On a light mech it is an option, albiet a questionable one, to have some flexibility by changing how much of each missile type to take. But on a heavier mech that can mount multiple weapons or an Omni-mech (serioulsy, why change ammo when you can change out the whole gun) it is pretty much new toy syndrome all over again.
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vergaul

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Re: ATM Question
« Reply #5 on: 15 July 2011, 06:26:56 »
Don't forget the free Artemis IV on the ATMs.  That's gotta count for something.

Anyway, only freebirth scum fire weapons indirectly.  You aren't a freebirth, are you?
« Last Edit: 15 July 2011, 06:28:53 by vergaul »

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Re: ATM Question
« Reply #6 on: 15 July 2011, 06:30:31 »
All your points are extremely true. The one factor I see going for the ATM is that you can drop the hammer at close range, while still retaining some long range capacity. On a light mech it is an option, albiet a questionable one, to have some flexibility by changing how much of each missile type to take. But on a heavier mech that can mount multiple weapons or an Omni-mech (serioulsy, why change ammo when you can change out the whole gun) it is pretty much new toy syndrome all over again.

Anybody run a comparison lately on an ATM 12 running HE ammo versus a HAG 40 at close range?

Oh yea, how about the fact that the ATM 12 is going to weigh half what the HAG does, get very nearly the same damage values thanks to Artemis IV, and have the ability to at random pop standard or ER ammo?

I lurve me some ATMs.  They don't indirect fire.  Big whoop.  They can't carry specialized ammunition.  That's something to remember and keep in your mind so that your Touman doesn't get ATM happy, but saying it's not a useful weapon when you start dumping 20+ damage per launcher at point blank range with a crappy cluster hit roll is somewhat silly.


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Re: ATM Question
« Reply #7 on: 15 July 2011, 14:59:58 »
 [copper]

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Grave

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Re: ATM Question
« Reply #8 on: 15 July 2011, 15:38:24 »
Understood, just using a quick shorthand to point out damage potential.  Wouldn't have posted in the thread if it wasn't relevant to the discussion =)


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A. Lurker

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Re: ATM Question
« Reply #9 on: 15 July 2011, 17:46:56 »
For me ATMs highlight an issue with relying too much on mixed ammo loads: unless you're very good at arranging for the battle to go your way or just plain lucky, there's a real chance that you will run out of your "best" ammunition long before your bins in general run dry, leaving you to fend for yourself with sub-par ordnance for the job at hand from that point onward. With ATMs that can easily happen if you bring, say, a standard "one ton of everything" load and then end up having to fight primarily at very long or extremely close range -- you can run out of ER or HE respectively in an astonishingly short time especially with the larger racks, and after that you'd better be able to dictate range sufficiently to get into a good bracket for whatever's left or else.

The problem is a more general one, of course, but between relying on no less than three distinct ammo types to realize their full potential and not getting all that many shots per ton ATMs kind of are the poster child for it.

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Re: ATM Question
« Reply #10 on: 15 July 2011, 17:57:36 »
Most people I know use the ATMs for their close combat damage, taking 2t of HE and 1t ER ammo. I don't like that weapon at all, preferring the standard LRM.

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Re: ATM Question
« Reply #11 on: 15 July 2011, 17:57:59 »
I lurve me some ATMs.  They don't indirect fire.  Big whoop.

If you don't like indirect fire, then you've never parked a lance of Archers behind an impenetrable hill and annihilated 'Mech after 'Mech without a scratch to the Archers. (The spotters can get a little raw if they ain't speedy and steathy...)

Quote
but saying it's not a useful weapon when you start dumping 20+ damage per launcher at point blank range with a crappy cluster hit roll is somewhat silly.

It's not silly, it's keeping the ATM in context of other Clan short- and long-ranged weapons. The ATM has disadvantages at medium and long ranges compared to other Clan missile weapons and only an edge at 1-3 hexes over those weapons. However, if you want lots of firepower at 1-3 hexes the ATM is also a poor choice because there are much lighter weapons with great short ranged performance (like Clan pulse lasers). Ton for ton, a combination of Clan LRMs and pulse lasers are more versatile, adaptable, and capable than an equal tonnage of ATMs. And you only need one ammo type to make the former work, while ATMs have to tote around at least two ammo types.

Or, to put it another way, if you like heavy short ranged damage and don't care about indirect fire or speciality munitions, why are you wasting tonnage on ATMs? Get some Clan pulse lasers.



For me ATMs highlight an issue with relying too much on mixed ammo loads: unless you're very good at arranging for the battle to go your way or just plain lucky, there's a real chance that you will run out of your "best" ammunition long before your bins in general run dry,  leaving you to fend for yourself with sub-par ordnance for the job at hand from that point onward.

Thank you. That nicely sums up the problem of needing 2 ammo types to get the job done. (The mid-range ATM ammo isn't all that useful if you're carrying short and long ranged ammo.)

Anyway, only freebirth scum fire weapons indirectly.  You aren't a freebirth, are you?

Am I freebirth? Let me put it this way: I was extremely disappointed to see the WoB Grand Crusade diverted to ravage the Inner Sphere rather than drop all that nukey borgy warshipy pain on the Clans.  ;)

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Grave

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Re: ATM Question
« Reply #12 on: 15 July 2011, 18:16:04 »
Fair point; on the other hand, ATMs offer the ability to handle that Hunchback bearing down on you with an Ultra AC/20 without getting limbs removed; simultaneously, they give you the option to close to knife range on the missile boat sporting 2 LRM 20s, whereas having 2 SRM 6 launchers or 2 LRM 15s would limit you tactically quite a bit.

To me, different ATM ammunition variants are no different that dropping in with Thunder loads in your LRM launchers or Haywire/Nemesis pods in your NARC launchers.  Can improper planning or bad luck hurt you?  Absolutely, but so can rolling snake eyes on on those dice rolls at the wrong moment.


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Youngblood

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Re: ATM Question
« Reply #13 on: 15 July 2011, 18:25:54 »
Fair point; on the other hand, ATMs offer the ability to handle that Hunchback bearing down on you with an Ultra AC/20 without getting limbs removed; simultaneously, they give you the option to close to knife range on the missile boat sporting 2 LRM 20s, whereas having 2 SRM 6 launchers or 2 LRM 15s would limit you tactically quite a bit.

Clan LRMs don't have minimum range.  They do a ridiculous amount of damage for their tonnage and heat.

Quote
To me, different ATM ammunition variants are no different that dropping in with Thunder loads in your LRM launchers or Haywire/Nemesis pods in your NARC launchers.  Can improper planning or bad luck hurt you?  Absolutely, but so can rolling snake eyes on on those dice rolls at the wrong moment.

You get to do different amounts of damage with ER or HE.  Oooooooh.  Still all grouped into 5-point clusters.  No improvement in crit-seeking efficiency like switching to SRMs does.  No improvement in utility like Thunder, Inferno, Semi-guided, nothing.

You should really go watch a game of Mariks versus Lyrans, with Advanced rules.  Mines everywhere.  Fire everywhere.  Smoke everywhere.  TAGging everywhere.  Almost makes me wonder (aside from the usual reason) why the Commonwealth hasn't been beaten to a pulp down in the Cavanaugh Theater yet.

Grave

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Re: ATM Question
« Reply #14 on: 15 July 2011, 18:57:00 »
If you don't like indirect fire, then you've never parked a lance of Archers behind an impenetrable hill and annihilated 'Mech after 'Mech without a scratch to the Archers. (The spotters can get a little raw if they ain't speedy and steathy...)

Whoa, hoss.  I never said I don't like indirect fire.  Simply that I'm not all that concerned about ATMs not having the ability.  If you look at Force Lists I tend to generate, LRMs have a place. In all of them.

Quote from: cray
It's not silly, it's keeping the ATM in context of other Clan short- and long-ranged weapons. The ATM has disadvantages at medium and long ranges compared to other Clan missile weapons and only an edge at 1-3 hexes over those weapons.

Comparing the ATM against the SRM, you're correct that in terms of firepower the ATM only has advantages when comparing HE loads versus standard SRMs.  However, you're also assuming that no pilot would ever opt to stick with HE loads at medium range.  Quite frankly, if my modifier is 7 to hit or less, I don't mind risking using HE warheads at medium range.  The damage clusters dealt by massed ATM fire is heavy enough to take the gamble, at least for me.

Quote from: cray
However, if you want lots of firepower at 1-3 hexes the ATM is also a poor choice because there are much lighter weapons with great short ranged performance (like Clan pulse lasers). Ton for ton, a combination of Clan LRMs and pulse lasers are more versatile, adaptable, and capable than an equal tonnage of ATMs. And you only need one ammo type to make the former work, while ATMs have to tote around at least two ammo types.

On the other hand, you're predicating your weapons loadouts on pulse laser and LRM combinations; the advantage ATMs have, of course, is being able to produce a much greater damage curve at shorter range and a comparable damage curve at medium ranges.  You're also forgetting that there's nothing that precludes ATM equipped 'Mechs from mounting pulse lasers, which quite a few of mine do.

As for why use ATMs instead of pulse lasers? How about both, because ATMs produce less heat per point of damage.

Let's compare. A Clan Large Pulse Laser weighs 6 tons, produces 10 Heat per shot and does 10 damage.

An ATM 6 launcher using HE loads produces 18 damage for 4 Heat and 3.5 tons.  Granted, the pulse laser gets a -2 to hit, but generally speaking Clan units have better to-hit modifiers than Spheroid units and also keep in mind that an ATM 6 gets pretty good love on the cluster hits table - onboard Artemis IV means that a 6 or better gets 5 missile hits (for a 50% chance at 15 damage or more) and a 9 or better gets a full spread.

Considering that one of the biggest problems with Clan Mechs is that they have serious heat issues, that's a tradeoff I'm absolutely willing to make on a case by case basis.  Are ATM's the answer during a grasslands campaign? Probably not - but claiming they are useless on the battlefield is a mistake, to say the least.


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Grave

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Re: ATM Question
« Reply #15 on: 15 July 2011, 19:01:34 »
Clan LRMs don't have minimum range.  They do a ridiculous amount of damage for their tonnage and heat.

I'll take an ATM 12 versus your LRM 20 at short range any day, man.

Quote from: Youngblood
You get to do different amounts of damage with ER or HE.  Oooooooh.  Still all grouped into 5-point clusters. 

Uhmm.

4 ATM-6 launchers produces an average of 60 damage or better if they all hit. Considering that's 12 different dice rolls in one damage determination round, please explain how that's not the definition of a crit seeker.

Quote from: Youngblood
You should really go watch a game of Mariks versus Lyrans, with Advanced rules.  Mines everywhere.  Fire everywhere.  Smoke everywhere.  TAGging everywhere.  Almost makes me wonder (aside from the usual reason) why the Commonwealth hasn't been beaten to a pulp down in the Cavanaugh Theater yet.

ATM's don't need Advanced rules.  Sure, advanced rules are fun, but there's that caveat that everyone has to agree to them all, beforehand.

You and cray have this mistaken impression that the ATM should be evaluated as if it were an attempt to be the replacement for LRMs.  They're not, and never could be.  However, they do fill a niche role that can be exploited, extremely effectively, by players who know what they're doing.
« Last Edit: 15 July 2011, 19:05:20 by Grave »


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DarkISI

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Re: ATM Question
« Reply #16 on: 15 July 2011, 19:04:24 »
Turkina D! Nuff said.
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Youngblood

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Re: ATM Question
« Reply #17 on: 15 July 2011, 19:33:25 »
I'll take an ATM 12 versus your LRM 20 at short range any day, man.

Short range for Clan tech is really 7 hexes, not 3.

Your ATM-12 also weighs 10 tons with 3 tons of that for ammo.  For the same weight, I can fit in two LRM-15s with 3 tons of ammo, -plus- I don't have to worry about specific types of that 3 tons of ammo being useless at extreme range.  If I wanted something for short range, I'd take ERPPCs and UAC/20s (but aside from the point, I guess).

Quote
Uhmm.

4 ATM-6 launchers produces an average of 60 damage or better if they all hit. Considering that's 12 different dice rolls in one damage determination round, please explain how that's not the definition of a crit seeker.

Same thing again.  For the same tonnage as 4 ATM-6 launchers with 4 tons of ammo (5 salvos of ER and 5 salvos of HE), I've got 3 LRM-20s with 3 tons of ammo (6 salvos) and maximum ammo effectiveness all the way to 7 hexes, so I don't have to pack more ammo than I need.  At 7 hexes you're either wasting your space with Standard or ER ATM ammo or you're whiffing like mad.  In addition, averaging 12 damage per launcher means the same number of clustered hits as an ATM-6 with HE ammo, -more- if using ER or standard.

Quote
ATM's don't need Advanced rules.  Sure, advanced rules are fun, but there's that caveat that everyone has to agree to them all, beforehand.

Everyone also has to agree to play a game in the first place in order to have Tournament-level fun.  Anyways, my opinion?  ATMs don't really add to the amount of fun in a Clan tech game (what little of it there is ;)).

Quote
You and cray have this mistaken impression that the ATM should be evaluated as if it were an attempt to be the replacement for LRMs.  They're not, and never could be.  However, they do fill a niche role that can be exploited, extremely effectively, by players who know what they're doing.

ATMs aren't really a niche so much as they are an alternative way of doing direct-fire damage.  And BattleTech has quite enough weapons that do direct-fire damage.  Preeeeetty boring as a FASA Field Manual expansion weapon, if you ask me.

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Re: ATM Question
« Reply #18 on: 15 July 2011, 20:11:02 »
Short range for Clan tech is really 7 hexes, not 3.

Mounted on a sufficiently mobile mech, you're probably not going to be able to really hang out in hexes 4 to 7.  And as previously stated, unless the modifier is extreme, I really don't have a problem firing HE loads out to medium range, so your real sweet spot is exactly 1 hex wide.  That's depending a lot on having more mobile Mechs than I do (rare with big box missile boats) and maintaining Initiative at all times.

Quote from: Youngblood
Your ATM-12 also weighs 10 tons with 3 tons of that for ammo.  For the same weight, I can fit in two LRM-15s with 3 tons of ammo, -plus- I don't have to worry about specific types of that 3 tons of ammo being useless at extreme range.

Okay.  I'm going to clarify this, so that you can quit beating the dead horse.

If I have ATMs, and you have LRMs, I am not going to shoot you at long range.  It's not going to happen.  If anything I will be closing as rapidly as possible, using terrain to drive your modifier up as much as possible.  When I run ATM launchers, I include mostly HE ammo with at most one or two tons of ER or Standard ammo.

Quote from: Youngblood
If I wanted something for short range, I'd take ERPPCs and UAC/20s (but aside from the point, I guess).

And ATMs beat the crap out of the first option in the heat department and the same applies to the second in the weight department.  All three have very similar damage profiles but vary in how damage is applied, all three of which have legitimate and tactically useful applications.

Quote from: Youngblood
Same thing again.  For the same tonnage as 4 ATM-6 launchers with 4 tons of ammo (5 salvos of ER and 5 salvos of HE), I've got 3 LRM-20s with 3 tons of ammo (6 salvos) and maximum ammo effectiveness all the way to 7 hexes, so I don't have to pack more ammo than I need.

Quote from: Youngblood
At 7 hexes you're either wasting your space with Standard or ER ATM ammo or you're whiffing like mad.

Let's challenge that assumption, shall we?  We'll use standard ammo for comparison.  Medium range 10, so I get a plus 2.  We'll go ahead and calculate my pilot versus your pilot, and assume that both pilots are 3/4.  I'm at medium range and in a 5/8 mech, walking.  That puts me at a base modifier before your movement and any intervening terrain at 6.  That's not really all that bad.  If you have a similar movement profile and are attempting to keep me at range, you're either making facing changes or backing up, one or the other.  If you're making facing changes, you're running, so you're automatically at a 7 to hit (3 base + 2 for run +2 for the fact that I walked 5 hexes).

If you're backing up, then you're moving a limited number of hexes and my base to hit modifer doesn't go up all that much, and you're going to have a harder time keeping me from bringing HE ammo in to play.

Additionally, I get more to hit rolls with the 4 launchers than you do with the 3, placing the law of averages firmly on my side.  Beyond that, as previously shown it's a lot easier for me to get my full complement of missiles to hit.  Assuming an 80% spread, every other turn I will hit you with all four launchers for about 40 damage, while you will miss at least once with the third LRM launcher and you will average ~45 missiles hit when all three hit, while only averaging 30 or so if one launcher misses.

Quote from: Youngblood
ATMs aren't really a niche so much as they are an alternative way of doing direct-fire damage.  And BattleTech has quite enough weapons that do direct-fire damage.  Preeeeetty boring as a FASA Field Manual expansion weapon, if you ask me.

You're welcome to that opinion, but it does nothing to negate the fact that ATMs can be quite effective.
« Last Edit: 15 July 2011, 20:13:58 by Grave »


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Youngblood

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Re: ATM Question
« Reply #19 on: 15 July 2011, 21:11:37 »
So, sterilized challenge comparisons aside, what you're saying is that ATMs should only be used for HE ammo?  I see.  Given that I don't really care about arguing for whether or not Clan weapons are maximized for one job or another, I might have to adapt your tactics sometime.

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Re: ATM Question
« Reply #20 on: 15 July 2011, 21:15:38 »
So, sterilized challenge comparisons aside, what you're saying is that ATMs should only be used for HE ammo?  I see.

We're on the internet.  I'd love to play an in person game with you and have a bit more decisive conclusion to the discussion, but I somehow suspect that's less than feasible.

Look, let's dial it back a few notches.

From my personal perspective, ATMs are very useful at short ranges (short ranges in terms of absolute distance, not short ranges defined by a given weapon) with the ability to apply tactical advantages at other ranges.  Not all Mechs should carry ATM launchers and not all Mechs should carry LRM launchers.  As with everything, moderation is key.

Edit for updated post: 
Quote from: Youngblood
Given that I don't really care about arguing for whether or not Clan weapons are maximized for one job or another, I might have to adapt your tactics sometime.

You might discover what I did - that it can be a rather nasty surprise :]

To give you an idea, 2 custom designs of mine in a cityscape rolled 9 criticals on a previously pristine assault mech using 4 ATM 6 launchers a piece.  In one turn.  Out of 13 possible critical rolls.  And the assault mech had about 14 tons of armor.
« Last Edit: 15 July 2011, 21:25:50 by Grave »


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Re: ATM Question
« Reply #21 on: 15 July 2011, 21:23:49 »
Speaking of moderation... calm it down guys. It's a game.
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Grave

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Re: ATM Question
« Reply #22 on: 15 July 2011, 21:26:19 »
Trying to do that, realized we were getting a tad heated :)


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Re: ATM Question
« Reply #23 on: 15 July 2011, 21:29:15 »
The best ATM ammo choice can depend of the 'Mech's other weapons layout.

For example, I use ER ammo for both tons of ATM ammo on the Dire Wolf C because its short range firepower is already considerable with the two ER PPCs and four MPLs. I find it lacks in the long range and so use ER ATM ammo because that is a better balance of its firepower.
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Re: ATM Question
« Reply #24 on: 15 July 2011, 21:53:27 »
Hmm.  Other than sticking to an established canon variant and slightly better range, (with the drawback of a minimum range) any particular reason for sticking with the ATM launcher as opposed to an LRM launcher at that point?


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Re: ATM Question
« Reply #25 on: 16 July 2011, 07:14:36 »
To me, the big advantage of ATMs is that they are very low BV for a clan weapon of their performance and weight (ATM12 ~ cLRM20  IIRC).  cLRMs end up being pretty pricy because they keep their damage over their whole range, while ATM minimum ranges on the long range ammo and short ranges on the high damage ammo keep this in check.

ATMs are also 'flexible' in that you can theretically exploit range brackets with ER and then hammer with HE, but standard rounds really suck for this type of strategy.

Really, outside of the BV reason I don't think ATMs will really be popular until new ammunition comes out.  I've got a few homebrews that trade the artemis bonus for things like different damage clusters and special effects a la the various IS munitions.  Idea is that the missiles can rely on the AIV system to better coordinate spread or get away with smaller targeting systems.

Hawktel

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Re: ATM Question
« Reply #26 on: 16 July 2011, 15:37:28 »




BirdofPrey

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Re: ATM Question
« Reply #27 on: 17 July 2011, 17:09:11 »
Which is one of many reasons that I find the notion that they're "flexible" laughable. Short comparison between Clan LRMs and ATMs:

1) Roughly the same damage per ton of launcher at most ranges except 1-3 where ATMs and short range ammunition rule (and ranges so extreme that the ATM rarely hits anyway)

2) ATMs cannot fire indirectly; Clan LRMs can

3) Clan LRMs can achieve all the above with 1 ammo type; ATMs can only achieve half of the above with 3 ammo types

4) ATMs cannot fire special ammo (mines, smoke, etc.); Clan LRMs can

When you need 3 different tons of ammo to get less than half the job done...
Two problems with that.  The first being that you are using Inner sphere doctrine for the comparison.   They make more sense with the Clan military doctrine.  First of all, clan warriors are taught to win their own fights; they aren't very big on team work, so indirect fire isn't something they use because it would require one warrior to help another by spotting; it's the same reason Streak LRMs work for Clan machines since the trade off is something not often used anyways.  Second, the Clans aren't too big on the alternate munitions and some are even actively shunned, so no big loss there either.  Another thing to consider is that the clans shun physical attacks unless you have no other weapons at your disposal, so ATMs at point blank range make a decent substitute for fists.

The other thing to think of is that LRMs are great long range weapons.  MMLs don't have the raw damage/ton ability of IS LRMs either, would you also recommend we not use those?  Obviously there's no substitute for LRMs.  ATMs compare a bit better to SRMs.  They are slightly heavier and a bit larger, but they can do SRM level damage at a bit under twice the range.  They also do higher damage at SRM ranges.  Against LRMs, they might not have the damage/ton ability, but they do have a longer max range.  They also have integral Artemis IV, so more missiles hit than regular SRMs or LRMS.


They aren't the best weapons, but they aren't that horrible if you aren't trying to use them like a different weapon.

Youngblood

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Re: ATM Question
« Reply #28 on: 17 July 2011, 17:30:49 »
Two problems with that.  The first being that you are using Inner sphere doctrine for the comparison.   They make more sense with the Clan military doctrine.  First of all, clan warriors are taught to win their own fights; they aren't very big on team work, so indirect fire isn't something they use because it would require one warrior to help another by spotting; it's the same reason Streak LRMs work for Clan machines since the trade off is something not often used anyways.  Second, the Clans aren't too big on the alternate munitions and some are even actively shunned, so no big loss there either.  Another thing to consider is that the clans shun physical attacks unless you have no other weapons at your disposal, so ATMs at point blank range make a decent substitute for fists.

Irrelevant, especially during the Jihad.  Very soon after contact with the Inner Sphere (and I suspect, the War of Reaving), Clan honor becomes quite the ambiguous concept in-universe.  Out-of-universe, I see -very- few Clan players play with honor, rather, they only bid to win and they immediately throw out all honor rules as soon as someone throws a punch, as if they were just waiting for it to happen.

BirdofPrey

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Re: ATM Question
« Reply #29 on: 17 July 2011, 17:59:13 »
They may have dropped Zel when fighting IS forces and they are a bit more flexible than they used to be, but their culture hasn't done a 180.  They are still just as stubborn and caught up on honor (even if they may have redefined the term in light of not using Zelbringen in most battles.)  Warriors grudgingly work together because they have to, but that hasn't changed the fact that a warrior is supposed to rely on himself alone on the battlefield.

Players fighting dirty in clan machines is a different thing entirely.  Fluff comes into play when the machines were designed.  Why do you think so many of the front line mechs don't have fists?