Choices of cargo DropShips to accompany Military DropShips?

[sillybrit]

Also the Vengeance is mentioned twice in SLDF era fluff that implies it is actually older than the intro date given that is right around the exodus.

I know I asked that question once before and the answer was that the name Vengeance has been used for multiple classes, akin to the two Riga classes of WarShip, the multiple use of Centurion, Lightning, etc.

[Lyran Archer]

It sounds like what we really need is a dropship that carries a regiment of BA with something else (Bn of vees or whatever).

While this set meets the tactical profile I'm trying to get at, it doesn't have anywhere near sufficient cargo for resupply operations.

For the first point, the Assault Triumph might fit your bill. It is one of the most well rounded DropShips out there - it carries 24 vehicles, 6 ASFs, 6 BattleMechs, 6 BA points, and 550 tons of cargo, on top of being very well armoured and incredibly well armed. It's one of the most well designed DropShips ever.

For the second point, this is a lament of mine. There are not many military-grade cargo carriers out there, like the Rose, for example. Napoleon once said that an "An army marches on its stomach", underscoring the absolute vitality of logistics in a war. In the latter stages of WW II, for every one Allied soldier fighting at the front there were ten non-combat personnel in the rear lines. You'd never know logistics existed looking at DropShips - the 9700-ton Overlord has just 31 tons of cargo space to support a battalion of BattleMechs and a squadron of ASFs!

[Belisarius]

I hear you, brother. I think I'm going to end up having to justify two Invaders and a Merchant with the Merchant's whole job in life to haul around a Mule (or some such) and an infantry carrier.

I really don't see how the LCTs do it unless they do use cargo dropships. At which point, if they're serious about transporting with as few docking collars as possible, then they could probably fit the whole organization in an Invader.

[Jackmc]

I really don't see how the LCTs do it unless they do use cargo dropships. At which point, if they're serious about transporting with as few docking collars as possible, then they could probably fit the whole organization in an Invader.

If you're using civvie hulls than you can easily haul a LCT with a Scout/Mammoth pair.

-Jackmc

[Lyran Archer]

If you're using civvie hulls than you can easily haul a LCT with a Scout/Mammoth pair.
-Jackmc

The only problem being that a single pilot in a single ASF, even a medium one, could easily tear the 52 000-ton Mammoth apart, causing the loss of an expensive DropShip, the equipment of the entire LCT, and killing the thousands of personnel inside. 

I would have liked to see a military grade Mammoth: heavily armed and armoured, able to launch three squadrons of ASFs, and still having room for about 20 000 tons of cargo. A true military-grade cargo landing craft.

[Hellraiser]

My only issue with BA as cargo is the 'why not the whole thing?' 

Because you still need an actual combat transport to deploy mechs from orbit & tanks/infantry on the ground to quickly secure the LZ.

If part of your force takes longer, so be it, that is likely the situtation already since there is nothing in canon to effectively move 5 regiments of infantry for a FS-RCT w/o using up 15 colars just for the infantry alone.  Just look at all the fluff battles of "ABC orbital drop to secure LZ for XYZ to unload".

It sounds like what we really need is a dropship that carries a regiment of BA with something else (Bn of vees or whatever).

Or even a Battalion. 
As I mentioned a coverted Condor can move the entire regiment.
A converted Triumph can move it and have some room for the tanks as well.

[Hellraiser]

I know I asked that question once before and the answer was that the name Vengeance has been used for multiple classes, akin to the two Riga classes of WarShip, the multiple use of Centurion, Lightning, etc.

And I'd be cool with that.......provided we actually had some stats of what it was.
And that fact that it is known to be a Fighter Carrier based on the 2 mentions.
I'd rather just see a retcon of the date, especially since the Vengeance now shows up in the Klondike RATs.
But maybe we will eventually get a smaller ship that only carries 18 fighters or something like that.

[Greyhind]

Realistically, to use the minimum amount of ships without being suicidal, you need three things: Cargo space, an ASF screen, and a quick deployment force for when you are on the dirt before you unload the units carried as cargo. Points two and three can be carried by the same ship (for raids with surprise on their side, a heavy attack may need extra fighters) and all three can be condensed down into two dropships (A Conquistador and a Mammoth) if you go big enough. Which an LCT, by definition, would be capable of. There is after all no point in an offensive unit that can't offend.

But I doubt that LCT transportation is uniform. While a Merchant/Conquistador/Mammoth combination would be nice. I have no doubt that Invaders and Tramps (LCTs would love Tramps) would carry such units as well with the load spread over three lighter dropships. For Heavy assaults, where the enemy is known to have more than the usual number of fighters a Vengeance could be attached to the task force on a jumpship that has an extra collar such as a Star Lord or Monolith or by using only two big dropships.

I'd like to note that since it would be unlikely for another dropship to want to jump into a war zone, even if the military would let it, an LCT would likely have full use of every collar on their jumpship and it would make sense for that jumpship to be as efficient as possible. So in that regard I'd say that twin collar jumpships and twin transports would make up at least 50%.

[Hellraiser]

Came up w/ some variants for the Condor, Triumph, & Mule and posted them here..
http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,11414.0.html
Check them out, let me know what you think.

I think some of them would make pretty nice options as canon variants of dropships for BA movement in the 3060+ era.

[Jackmc]

The only problem being that a single pilot in a single ASF, even a medium one, could easily tear the 52 000-ton Mammoth apart, causing the loss of an expensive DropShip, the equipment of the entire LCT, and killing the thousands of personnel inside. 

Only if it's unescorted.  I figure a LCT has at least two squadrons attached.  Plus the Mammoth already has space for 4 gunships/escorts.

I would have liked to see a military grade Mammoth: heavily armed and armoured, able to launch three squadrons of ASFs, and still having room for about 20 000 tons of cargo. A true military-grade cargo landing craft.

Heavily armoring a dropship is almost always a losing proposition.  it's just far to easy to gut one with a cap bay or a fighters using the squadron rules.

-Jackmc

[Hellraiser]

Heavily armoring a dropship is almost always a losing proposition.  it's just far to easy to gut one with a cap bay or a fighters using the squadron rules.

While I'm not opposed to armor, I have to agree, an ASF squadron can pretty much kill one in a pass.
In the end I think Armor just adds more BV to a ship.
I'd rather stick it into more ASF to clear my path so even a tissue paper hulled ship can pass through like they were in the safety of the New Avalon system.

[sillybrit]

I'd rather just see a retcon of the date, especially since the Vengeance now shows up in the Klondike RATs.

Vengeance introduction: 2782
Exodus: 2784

Why would a retcon be required?

[Hellraiser]

Why would a retcon be required?

As stated above, its also listed as being in use either Pre or Mid SLDF era. (I forget the actual date)
Showing up w/ the Clans when before they only listed the Titan is just one more thing that points to a possible earlier intro date.
So we can get a whole different ship class that also happens to be a CV, or, we can change one # from a 7 to a 5/6.
Which is easier ?

[sillybrit]

The pre-/mid-Star League references only matter if they refer to the modern Vengeance presented in DS & JS through to TRO3057R. If those references are for an extinct design that shares the name - and perhaps was even the inspiration for the modern design's name - the need for a retcon goes away and it'll hardly be the first time a design is mentioned where we lack any stats.

Previously, we have only been aware of Titans in the Clans, because that was the only design seen in the modern era until they fielded the Miraborg. With the dates of the Vengeance's introduction and the Exodus allowing the time for Kerensky to have obtained some Vengeances prior to fleeing the Inner Sphere, as indicated by the Klondike RATs. The lack of Clan Vengeances seen in the modern era equally indicates that none survived the Clans early years and so were quite probably originally few in number compared to the Titan.

The SLDF had operated the Titan for more than two centuries by the time the Star League fell, with probably hundreds in service at that time, and even after the losses suffered to remove Amaris plenty would have remained to join the Exodus given their continued service. In comparison, the Vengeance would have been a new and relatively untested design, probably available in limited numbers given that the Houses were grabbing everything they could, with the SLDF also probably unwilling to pursue obtaining large numbers due to its unfamiliarity.

Given that the early Vengeance no longer exists and is only known from obscure passing references in a sourcebook about a historical faction that also no longer exists, it's even easier to just ignore it and let the BattleTech universe continue moving forward. The simplest explanation about the SLSB's Vengeance references is that it's yet another failure of FASA's fact checking, a problem that was rife back then.

[Hellraiser]

The simplest explanation about the SLSB's Vengeance references is that it's yet another failure of FASA's fact checking, a problem that was rife back then.

The SLSB & TRO2750 both are both 4-5 years before BS which gave us the DS intro dates IIRC.
So I'd say that BS is where the problem occured, not in the SLSB.


Your line of theory is certainly possible, I don't disagree with any of it, that IS a possible outcome.
That said, it requires for everything to fall into that perfect scenario & still leaves us w/ a missing ship which no one likes and which Catalyst is currently trying to fluff-stat out all those missing units.
OR, we could correct 1 # in a date & walla, everything works fine as well.
Its certainly NOT the 1st intro date that ever needed correcting, TRO 3025 was filled with them, and they got corrected, and the universe didn't change any.

[sillybrit]

The SLSB & TRO2750 both are both 4-5 years before BS which gave us the DS intro dates IIRC.

The introduction date of 2782 for the Vengeance is first given in DropShips and JumpShips, which precedes the SLSB by six months and TRO2750 (which doesn't even contain the Vengeance) by over a year and a half.

[Cerberus_02]

For the first point, the Assault Triumph might fit your bill. It is one of the most well rounded DropShips out there - it carries 24 vehicles, 6 ASFs, 6 BattleMechs, 6 BA points, and 550 tons of cargo, on top of being very well armoured and incredibly well armed. It's one of the most well designed DropShips ever.

As an aerodyne-type, it requires a prepared landing strip; it has no VTOL capability.

Not disputing that it's a good Dropship, though.

[Colt Ward]

Eh, when your bringing in conventional forces, or doing anything more than the quick and dirty raid you want to control a landing strip.  Or better yet, a class 1/a/whatever spaceport which will have all the support infrastructure you will need for dropship, ASF, conventional fighter and VTOL operations.  The facility will also give you a semi-secure HQ for initial phases, and will offer your ground forces a lot of support like it does to your aero forces.  The same hangers that house ASF can also be used as mech and vehicle repair depot.  The machine shops that crank out refurbished or customized parts for aero forces can also do that for ground forces . . . besides building RL pods if you can come up with the explosive.