Author Topic: Where Are All the Crappy Assault Mechs?  (Read 57312 times)

Dayton3

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Re: Where Are All the Crappy Assault Mechs?
« Reply #30 on: 14 January 2012, 20:59:56 »
The 3025 assault mechs to me for the most part aside from the Awesome and Stalker don't seem to have any particular role in mind.   They're just loaded with whatever variety of weapons the designer fancied.

While I was fond of the Victor for its "more humanoid" look,  it did look hideously underarmed for my taste.     

I think you can't really consider the later variants of the Charger and Banshee as even being the same mech because in many ways, they are completely different aside from the basic external structures.

I've got a question regarding assault mechs and I'll bring it up here instead of starting another thread.

A common thought of mine is "how many energy weapons does an assault mech need to have to make it worth keeping in a battle?"

I know that it was said about the King Crab was that despite having its large laser,  once it ran out of AC ammunition that it was best to retire from the battle.

willydstyle

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Re: Where Are All the Crappy Assault Mechs?
« Reply #31 on: 14 January 2012, 21:27:43 »
I think one of the problems with assault mechs of the era (leaving the Banshee and Charger out of it, since they're *designed* to be crappy by having way too big of an engine for the frame), is that they don't take advantage of the AC10 enough.  It's a weapon that gains a lot as you approach your heat sink limit, and can make it difficult for light mechs to rush you (due to no minimum range) or 5/8 or 4/6 mechs from staying outside the range for an AC20.  Give me a Victor, Atlas, or Banshee with an AC10 and a few other upgrades instead of the AC20, and you're looking at a really solid "mid range brawler" as the AC10 in particular can work well with both the LRM20 and the shorter range complement on the Atlas, for example.

Dayton3

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Re: Where Are All the Crappy Assault Mechs?
« Reply #32 on: 14 January 2012, 21:30:40 »
I think one of the problems with assault mechs of the era (leaving the Banshee and Charger out of it, since they're *designed* to be crappy by having way too big of an engine for the frame), is that they don't take advantage of the AC10 enough.  It's a weapon that gains a lot as you approach your heat sink limit, and can make it difficult for light mechs to rush you (due to no minimum range) or 5/8 or 4/6 mechs from staying outside the range for an AC20.  Give me a Victor, Atlas, or Banshee with an AC10 and a few other upgrades instead of the AC20, and you're looking at a really solid "mid range brawler" as the AC10 in particular can work well with both the LRM20 and the shorter range complement on the Atlas, for example.

Good point.

I think there was a real tendency to put the "really big cannon" on the assault mechs of that era (Atlas, Victor, Cyclops) rather than look at more common sense options.

SteelRaven

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Re: Where Are All the Crappy Assault Mechs?
« Reply #33 on: 14 January 2012, 21:40:39 »
Good point.

I think there was a real tendency to put the "really big cannon" on the assault mechs of that era (Atlas, Victor, Cyclops) rather than look at more common sense options.
Best way I made sense of this was that the machines where geared to close quarters City fighting during the 1st-2ed SW, why cities where being nuked in the first place.

In realty, it was just a big mech= big guns formula
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willydstyle

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Re: Where Are All the Crappy Assault Mechs?
« Reply #35 on: 14 January 2012, 22:12:33 »
The Striker wasn't all that hot, either. A contemporary of the Banshee, it's write-up didn't show up until half a dozen TROs later.
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willydstyle

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Re: Where Are All the Crappy Assault Mechs?
« Reply #36 on: 14 January 2012, 22:17:20 »
The Striker wasn't all that hot, either. A contemporary of the Banshee, it's write-up didn't show up until half a dozen TROs later.

Looking at it, I'd say it's a really decent 80-tonner.

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Re: Where Are All the Crappy Assault Mechs?
« Reply #37 on: 14 January 2012, 22:27:33 »
Looking at it, I'd say it's a really decent 80-tonner.

Its all subjective.
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willydstyle

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Re: Where Are All the Crappy Assault Mechs?
« Reply #38 on: 14 January 2012, 22:39:53 »
Its all subjective.

Well, I think people expect too much out of any mech labeled "assault mech."  The Striker is pretty comparable in capability to intro-tech 75 tonners, and since it is only 5 tons more this should really be the expectation.  To be clear, I'm looking at the -2S variant in SSW, and it seems like it's pretty capable at medium and short ranges, fairly heat efficient, decently armored, its ammo is well crit-packed, and doesn't waste any space with the rear-firing weapons that plague intro-tech designs.

Fear Factory

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Re: Where Are All the Crappy Assault Mechs?
« Reply #39 on: 14 January 2012, 22:51:57 »
It's all a matter of preference, that and working with whatever you have.

There's a ELH Thunderbolt variant from 3050 for example, on paper it looks
relatively rubbish.  In practice i found it usually superb, and insanely solid.

But i digress, half the beauty of the game is in triumphing with whatever you
can get/or can legitimately field.  People seldom remember that, it seems many
people think only in terms of raw power or flaws that they percieve.

More fool them.

Well said.
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Re: Where Are All the Crappy Assault Mechs?
« Reply #40 on: 15 January 2012, 00:05:47 »
One man´s "crazy number of weapons" is the other´s "good firepower over all ranges".

and a third's "I will alpha strike your 'mech so hard it vaporizes!"  :D
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Re: Where Are All the Crappy Assault Mechs?
« Reply #41 on: 15 January 2012, 02:18:22 »
Quote
Well, I think people expect too much out of any mech labeled "assault mech."

I think it has less to do with that and more to do with looking at the 'Mech and its cost in mass, BV, or C-Bills as compared to what it actually brings to the table. Particularly when you put it beside the better-designed machines in the class, even at that era.

The Striker or Charger, and even the "improved" Charger in the Hatamoto-Chi, for example, are up against the Awesome in 3025.

One of those designs is clearly making good use of the available technologies, and it's not the Charger.
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Demos

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Re: Where Are All the Crappy Assault Mechs?
« Reply #42 on: 15 January 2012, 02:27:28 »
Here is the Atlas AS7-D done right
You need to take a look at the canon AS7-RS. Supports your petition for AC/10, but I like the additional two LL more than your ML battery.
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willydstyle

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Re: Where Are All the Crappy Assault Mechs?
« Reply #43 on: 15 January 2012, 05:43:27 »
I think it has less to do with that and more to do with looking at the 'Mech and its cost in mass, BV, or C-Bills as compared to what it actually brings to the table. Particularly when you put it beside the better-designed machines in the class, even at that era.



If you're balancing by mass (which is a horrible idea anyways) the Striker is not much different than a Marauder -3D, but has significantly more armor, similar firepower, and better physicals.  Balancing by BV the Striker -2S is similar to the Warhammer 6D or the Marauder 3D, with similar firepower, better physicals, and slightly less armor than the Warhammer, and because the AC10 is so much more heat efficient than PPCs, a pretty similar heat curve. Sure, it costs significantly more C-bills, but if you're not playing a game that cares (which I often do, and I'm sure many others do as well), it is very similarly costed to mechs with similar capabilities, despite those mechs being on one side of the arbitrary 80-ton line.

Greywind

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Re: Where Are All the Crappy Assault Mechs?
« Reply #44 on: 15 January 2012, 06:12:33 »
Balancing by tonnage is for quick and dirty pick-up games.

Balancing by BV is more for tournaments.

C-Bill cost only seems to come into it during campaigns.

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Re: Where Are All the Crappy Assault Mechs?
« Reply #45 on: 15 January 2012, 06:20:13 »
Good point.

I think there was a real tendency to put the "really big cannon" on the assault mechs of that era (Atlas, Victor, Cyclops) rather than look at more common sense options.

You've apparently never encountered a military full of lobbyists and procurement offices promised wunder waffen. Just because it "doesn't make sense" for these armies to put units into production that obviously shouldn't have been (The original Charger and Banshee, spring, nay leap to mind) doesn't mean someone didn't throw a good pitch to the Quartermaster Corps, or caught a procurement officer while he was totally blitzed and got him to sign a bunch of orders for a mech.
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Fear Factory

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Re: Where Are All the Crappy Assault Mechs?
« Reply #46 on: 15 January 2012, 12:17:00 »
I think it has less to do with that and more to do with looking at the 'Mech and its cost in mass, BV, or C-Bills as compared to what it actually brings to the table. Particularly when you put it beside the better-designed machines in the class, even at that era.

Well yeah.  If you're constantly playing people who have to field nothing but the best variants of course the "crappy" variants are going to look bad.  If someone spams the good stuff you have to do the same thing or you will be bitter about them.
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willydstyle

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Re: Where Are All the Crappy Assault Mechs?
« Reply #47 on: 15 January 2012, 13:43:06 »
Well yeah.  If you're constantly playing people who have to field nothing but the best variants of course the "crappy" variants are going to look bad.  If someone spams the good stuff you have to do the same thing or you will be bitter about them.

Or you could just use BV2 :D I know it's not perfect, but it lets you take the cappy stuff without being at a huge disadvantage, generally.

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Re: Where Are All the Crappy Assault Mechs?
« Reply #48 on: 15 January 2012, 15:04:36 »
Of course the stalker is incredibly flawed in that it looks like a turd on legs (literally).

We used to call it the Homewrecker in my group...

IMHO you're absolutely correct though, other than its appearance the Stalker is a great assault machine in the Succession Wars era.
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snewsom2997

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Re: Where Are All the Crappy Assault Mechs?
« Reply #49 on: 15 January 2012, 18:40:15 »
Here is the way I kook at it, the SL would have had regiments upon regiments of Long Range specialists designs, Archer, Longbow, Rifleman, Bombardier, Galahad. Designs like the Altas, Battlemaster, Victor, and other designs with sparse long range weaponry would be supported. Battlemechs were designed to be composes of at companies. Not the Lance on Lance play that most players do. When you have a Company of Atlases, and a Company of Archers, it makes more sense, while you can get sort of the same effect by 1 Atlas and 1 Archer, it isn't quite the same. So most designs are specialized in one way or another and crippled in one way or another. The Cyclops was a command mech, not intended to wade in the midst of battle so it sacrificed armor for comms equipment. Also in my opinion pre SW that DHS were the front line standard, and not SHS, that alone fixes almost all problems in 3025 mechs, with few notable examples, Charger cannot be fixed without XL Engines, and in my opinion quad designs are more suited 60 tons or less because of space restrictions. The Atlas was designed to wade into battle, and can shoot on its way there with its LRM, the Stalker and Awesome are the best 3025 Stock Assault Mechs, with the Battlemaster near the top. But take into account these were the Mad Max Mechs from Pre Core, and post 3rd SW, Not the Star League versions, which would have been the standard at manufacture, not after 250 years of war. Most of the 3025 mechs would have been in militias at the time of the Star League, These are Reunification Wars Designs for the most Part, but the 2750, 3050, and 3055 mechs would have been in front line units House, and House SL Units.

Dayton3

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Re: Where Are All the Crappy Assault Mechs?
« Reply #50 on: 15 January 2012, 19:03:03 »
I think the early assault mech designers much have figured that assault class machines would be prone to engage in physical attacks.

Because they have two fully manipulative hands on the Atlas,  Battlemaster,  Cyclops,  Banshee, and Charger and one on the Victor.     I think the Zeus and Awesome have what amounts to fists for punching as well.

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Re: Where Are All the Crappy Assault Mechs?
« Reply #51 on: 15 January 2012, 19:09:36 »
The Zeus, no but the Awesome 8q did have a battlefist/clubfist

There is a great pick of a Zeus face to face Hunchback, to bad I can't find the pick anywhere.
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willydstyle

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Re: Where Are All the Crappy Assault Mechs?
« Reply #52 on: 15 January 2012, 19:10:43 »
the charger is missing a hand actuator for basically no reason as well.

Dayton3

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Re: Where Are All the Crappy Assault Mechs?
« Reply #53 on: 15 January 2012, 19:13:00 »
The Zeus, no but the Awesome 8q did have a battlefist/clubfist

There is a great pick of a Zeus face to face Hunchback, to bad I can't find the pick anywhere.

I was thinking about the "armored core" on the Zeus's hand that sticks out ahead of the LRM-15 tubes.   According to TRO:3025 it is supposed to be used for "bludgeoning" smaller mechs.

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Re: Where Are All the Crappy Assault Mechs?
« Reply #54 on: 15 January 2012, 20:22:26 »
I was thinking about the "armored core" on the Zeus's hand that sticks out ahead of the LRM-15 tubes.   According to TRO:3025 it is supposed to be used for "bludgeoning" smaller mechs.

While nice writing, the rules are no different from any other 'Mech without a hand actuator.
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Re: Where Are All the Crappy Assault Mechs?
« Reply #55 on: 15 January 2012, 20:39:57 »
I think the Zeus and Awesome have what amounts to fists for punching as well.

Zeus has  that club thing that's just treated as a normal fist in the rules, but the Awesome has one of the rare clamp-looking manipulators.
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Re: Where Are All the Crappy Assault Mechs?
« Reply #56 on: 16 January 2012, 01:30:11 »
The Zeus, no but the Awesome 8q did have a battlefist/clubfist

There is a great pick of a Zeus face to face Hunchback, to bad I can't find the pick anywhere.

The original fluff for the Zeus mentions the LRM-15 is mounted back on the core to allow the Zeus to engage in physical combat without damaging the launch tubes.

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Re: Where Are All the Crappy Assault Mechs?
« Reply #57 on: 16 January 2012, 01:39:15 »
Like the battering rams that were supposed to slide down over the Behemoth's lasers, they don't have any in game effect.
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Re: Where Are All the Crappy Assault Mechs?
« Reply #58 on: 16 January 2012, 06:11:31 »
They look good in the fluff.

Sir Chaos

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Re: Where Are All the Crappy Assault Mechs?
« Reply #59 on: 16 January 2012, 08:42:13 »
I think one of the problems with assault mechs of the era (leaving the Banshee and Charger out of it, since they're *designed* to be crappy by having way too big of an engine for the frame), is that they don't take advantage of the AC10 enough.  It's a weapon that gains a lot as you approach your heat sink limit, and can make it difficult for light mechs to rush you (due to no minimum range) or 5/8 or 4/6 mechs from staying outside the range for an AC20.  Give me a Victor, Atlas, or Banshee with an AC10 and a few other upgrades instead of the AC20, and you're looking at a really solid "mid range brawler" as the AC10 in particular can work well with both the LRM20 and the shorter range complement on the Atlas, for example.

You make a good point. See, for example the Banshee -3S - in my opinion, it´s right up there with the Awesome and Stalker as the holy trinity of well-designed assaults.

I think it is the misfortune of the AC/10 that, in many designers´ minds, it falls victim to the "for just two more tons I can get twice the firepower" lure of the AC/20.
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