The M5 Drone WarShip

[tekteam26]

the Latter.  the entire point of any unmanned combat system is to make them cheap and in quantity.  though based off of the Lola III hull, I expect thier capabilities to be more in line with the Lola I or II more for the reason of cost cutting then anything else.

I also fail to see why Caspars would have to be "ammo independant"  these suckers would need to be pulled into dock and maintained more studiously then a warship with a crew, thus a autocannon and capital missle based armament would 1) be cheaper and 2) be realistic since you can just swap out rounds every time you bring a squadron in for maintenance.  these things are not meant to float out there for decades on end after all.

The canon said that Caspars used lasers and missiles. Actually, nothing was mentioned at all about the Caspars using NAC's, N-PPC's or N-Gauss Rifles either for that matter.

[Weirdo]

On the other hand, we also have nothing saying they never mounted such gear. Honestly, things like that are questions that won't be answered until the stats are released.

[Gaiiten]

I'm not sure that was the intent of the Caspar system. The huge cost of the system has been raised more than once and Johnathan Cameron wasn't exactly worried about manpower. He was terrified of invasion (the dreams) and wanted every advantage he could get.

But why did he want an automated system?

[Welshman]

But why did he want an automated system?

An open question that may never be answered. My personal opinion, which I've held for twenty years and is not in any way an official Catalyst statement, is that it was a matter of trust. Cameron wanted a system he had complete control over. After all the Hegemony began when the military got fed up with the Terran Alliance and started shooting up Terra from their WarShips.

Again, this is strictly a personal opinion which may or may not be reality. It is one I've held since first reading HBSL in the... whenever it came out.

[Stormfury]

But why did he want an automated system?

Because he was nuts.

And because the Caspar system ensured that every vessel and battle group would be commanded by an exceptionally skilled "individual" thanks to the whole affair being based on the neural patterns of an extremely good admiral. As a bonus, the Caspars could not be subverted if it came to that, unlike the regular fleet.

Besides, some people just get fixated.

[DarthRads]

An open question that may never be answered. My personal opinion, which I've held for twenty years and is not in any way an official Catalyst statement, is that it was a matter of trust. Cameron wanted a system he had complete control over. After all the Hegemony began when the military got fed up with the Terran Alliance and started shooting up Terra from their WarShips.

Again, this is strictly a personal opinion which may or may not be reality. It is one I've held since first reading HBSL in the... whenever it came out.

1988 I believe...

And I think that is a pretty good theory. Even if JCameron couldn't control the whole thing himself, he could limit control to just those he trusted.

[Hellraiser]

The canon said that Caspars used lasers and missiles. Actually, nothing was mentioned at all about the Caspars using NAC's, N-PPC's or N-Gauss Rifles either for that matter.

Negative.
  Canon has a description of lasers & missiles passing between 2 groups of ships.
  It in no way means that they HAD to come from the Caspars.
  Nor does it mean they are Capital Class weapons.
  Technically it could have been ML's and LRM5's for all we know.

[Khymerion]

Negative.
  Canon has a description of lasers & missiles passing between 2 groups of ships.
  It in no way means that they HAD to come from the Caspars.
  Nor does it mean they are Capital Class weapons.
  Technically it could have been ML's and LRM5's for all we know.

Humorously, that would be an interesting Caspar...  warship crews staring at this big warship cruising in, totally silent in terms of weapons till suddenly,  some kind of death star scale focusing laser array powers up as all the medium lasers open up at once.   Or the stars go dark and are replaced for a moment from all the LRM-5s being fired at once filling the void with missile contrails.

[tekteam26]

Negative.
  Canon has a description of lasers & missiles passing between 2 groups of ships.
  It in no way means that they HAD to come from the Caspars.
  Nor does it mean they are Capital Class weapons.
  Technically it could have been ML's and LRM5's for all we know.

Somehow, I really, really doubt that.....

[sillybrit]

It would be rather absurd to assume that Caspars only mounted lasers and missiles purely on the basis of the SLSB passage that describes the exchange of fire between the two fleets as "the flash of lasers and the angry exhausts of missiles". After all, that passage makes no mention of the NACs, NGRs and NPPCs that we know as a 100% fact were mounted on various SLDF WarShip classes. So are we to redesign the Aegis, Black Lion, McKenna, etc just because they're equipped with weapons whose effects aren't mentioned in that one sentence?

It's just the descriptive text the writer happened to use, probably without really thinking anything more of it, and certainly not intending it to set the armament limits of WarShips that were still as yet unpublished at the time SLSB was produced.

[tekteam26]

Actually, it makes a great deal of sense that the Caspars were primarily armed with capital lasers and missiles. The lasers give Caspars weapons that do not require ammunition, so when a Caspar is fighting guerilla-style, without access to ready supplies of ammunition, they can keep on fighting. The capital missiles make sense for two reasons.... to counter enemy fighters but even more importantly to launch nukes.

Yes, the WarShips being attacked carried NAC's and N-PPC's in many cases, but that's not what was mentioned being utilized in the canon quote. A Caspar could have more firepower per ton if it were to use primarily medium to heavy NAC's as their primary armament, of course.

[sillybrit]

But why not apply those same standards to NPPCs, which also have no need for ammo?

And even if guerilla style tactics were a concern, of which that is just purely speculation, then given that NAC and NGR ammo mass is so relatively tiny, the Caspars could easily be loaded with 100s of rounds per weapon. To forestall protests that it'd be an unnecessary or inefficient use of mass, I'd point out that the capital missiles you're suggesting for mere anti-fighter use are far heavier than NAC/NGR shells, and would be required in large numbers to be worthwhile given that ASFs are far more numerous than WarShips and DropShips. I'd say that stocking up for anti-fighter capital missile shots is inefficient, if streamlining for a guerilla role is a concern.

Besides which, while not as accurate as capital missiles when used against fighters and other small targets, the capital guns have the wonderful advantage that the fighters they hit typically die with a single hit for all but the weakest bays, instead of requiring multiple hits to kill or cripple. The Black Lion, for example, the archetypal NAC-boat, is a formidable anti-fighter platform. In addition to that, the Caspars would also be supported by Blackwasps, giving them their own fighter cover if they needed it.

[JPArbiter]

I should also point out another fallacy about the Caspar System.  yes it is true that the ships don't need a crew per say, but they will need a small crew and control compartment for one simple reason.  since "Monitors" (warships without FTL systems) do not exist, and control of the Caspar system would mean it would be important to build from a single well guarded location, that means that the Drones have to jump themselves to their designated systems.

Couple THAT with the fact that in J:FR it was stated that Caspar Drones AI could not cope with jumps (specifically disorientation from shifting locations in space so quickly) then the beasties would have to be moved out while the computers are shut down, THEN activated, go through shakedowns and cut loose.

this basically means that for an M5 Drone, in addition to the robotic control system, they will still need the "live" Control system as well, though no crew compartments.  or they handwave that an advanced dropship tethered to a drone guided it where it was supposed to go prior to activation

[Stormfury]

OTOH, which Caspar system was that referring to? The one the Star League had, or the flawed copy the Blakists managed to scrape together?

[DarthRads]

OTOH, which Caspar system was that referring to? The one the Star League had, or the flawed copy the Blakists managed to scrape together?

Will look for the exact quote, but n the write-up for Caspar IIIs in Final Reckoning I think t makes reference to this being a problem for M5s as well

[tekteam26]

OTOH, which Caspar system was that referring to? The one the Star League had, or the flawed copy the Blakists managed to scrape together?

I am hoping that the real Star League control system is much more advanced and smaller than the Blakist one because otherwise you can't get a Caspar to do all of the things described under the canon. If you look at the new illustrations of the Caspars and compare them to the original Lola images with the sensor towers forward, it is extremely clear that the drive sections have been significantly upgraded too.

[DarthRads]

Even the SL era Caspar system could not perform jumps without human crews. The AI would become disorientated according to Final Reckoning.

[Hellraiser]

Somehow, I really, really doubt that.....

I do to.
But the point still stands that making assumptions based on that tiny bit of fluffed out battle description would be foolish and unreliable.

NOW,  if that description was

The M5's gathered at extreme range from the incoming SLDF fleet & began to shell the enemy warships with Naval Gauss fire at long range

, then THAT, I would say, is worthy of making assumptions about armament.

But what we got ?
Well SB said it best, we aren't going out and assuming that the only incoming warships were armed with Naval Lasers & Missiles are we?

a Caspar is fighting guerilla-style, without access to ready supplies of ammunition, they can keep on fighting. 

I'm not seeing Caspars ever fighting Guerrilla style.  (Just my opinion)
They gather into a massive formation, we know this from both Brasso & the Terra invasion.
Then they pound the crap out of the enemy with high speed passes.
Either they win or they get wiped out.
Running off into the nether reaches of a system only to come back later & start raiding shipping lanes ?? 
Not unless the Humans in the ground bases are giving them those kinds of orders.
And really, if you have made the Caspars retreat, then you have already leared a path to drop divisions of troops onto the world.  Which means said ground bases are likely getting invaded soon and the next orders will be coming from Friendlies.

The capital missiles make sense ....  to launch nukes.

You think its a good idea to give Nukes to Robots ?
I'm having flashbacks to the Terminator series right now.....
Too much room for error there IMHO.  (The dang things already trashed merchants when they couldn't read the IFF codes right.)

I don't want them thinking my City is an "enemy ground troops concentration" and nuking civvies from orbit.  Not to mention there were rules about using Nukes close to the planet, and from what we have seen, the Caspars seemed to gather around the planet.

Caspars were deployed in large #s, they didn't need to depend on Nukes, they had Firepower, #'s, Speed, & Endurance on their side.  (Again, just my opinion)

[Hellraiser]

Even the SL era Caspar system could not perform jumps without human crews. The AI would become disorientated according to Final Reckoning.

Which makes total sense really.
Do you want them making jumps all by themselves ?
What happens when they misjump to the wrong system?
How do they transfer control to a new SDS base ?

We know they were deployed all over the TH.
It makes sense that fleets of them would be built/remodeled at/near Terran shipyards and then transferred (by human crews) out to wherever they were to be stationed at and then control transferred over to ground bases at the new planet.


I can even picture them being transferred in times of emergency.
Say the TH & House Liao start having a spat over some worlds.
The TH can move some M5 flotillas from the inner/opposite side of the TH out to the edges to reinforce neighboring systems to the invasion area.
Sure, they don't get deployed offensively but they have the ability to create a thicker band of defense in case the invaders keep moving deeper into your territory.

[I am Belch II]

I thought the M5 Drone's were more like what I would call Monitors. Size of a warship, but couldn't jump.

[sillybrit]

No such unit type in BattleTech. If it's WarShip-sized, then it has a KF Drive and thus can potentially jump; if it doesn't have a KF Drive, then it's a DropShip.

[DarthRads]

I thought the M5 Drone's were more like what I would call Monitors. Size of a warship, but couldn't jump.

This has been mentioned earlier, but the Nuke Lord has given us the word (before the boards got re-done) that Caspars are WarShips and therefore have a KF Drive

[Welshman]

This has been mentioned earlier, but the Nuke Lord has given us the word (before the boards got re-done) that Caspars are WarShips and therefore have a KF Drive

Correct. WarShip hulls require a KF drive as part of their base construction, whether or not they use them.

[Hellraiser]

I thought the M5 Drone's were more like what I would call Monitors. Size of a warship, but couldn't jump.

Negative, no such unit exists in any canon BT rules.

[DarthRads]

Correct. WarShip hulls require a KF drive as part of their base construction, whether or not they use them.

According to my own personnal fluff, the KF drive runs rhe length of the ship and serves as the 'spine' of large ships. Therefore vessels over 100kt cannot be built without them.

[glitterboy2098]

You think its a good idea to give Nukes to Robots ?
I'm having flashbacks to the Terminator series right now.....
Too much room for error there IMHO.  (The dang things already trashed merchants when they couldn't read the IFF codes right.)

I don't want them thinking my City is an "enemy ground troops concentration" and nuking civvies from orbit.  Not to mention there were rules about using Nukes close to the planet, and from what we have seen, the Caspars seemed to gather around the planet.

Caspars were deployed in large #s, they didn't need to depend on Nukes, they had Firepower, #'s, Speed, & Endurance on their side.  (Again, just my opinion)

Caspars were mobile deep space defenses for a space defense system. it wouldn't be hard to program them to ignore ground units entirely, since they generally fight in interplanetary space or near jump points. likewise it wouldn't be hard to program them to only use nukes against enemy warships if cleared by the ground station first.

and while caspars were deployed in large numbers, so were other warships. this was the age of actual fleets, when invasion forces often had scores of warships and hundreds of dropships. and as we see in the canon encounters with caspars, invasion forces against caspar defended systems had an order of magnitude more. even subject to 'standard issue stupid pills' the designers would have to be aware of how ther defenses could be swamped by a superior force, and at least plan for the option of issuing nuclear weapons to their defensive drones as a force modifier. after all, when it comes to war "if you aint cheating, you aint trying"

[Hellraiser]

Caspars were mobile deep space defenses for a space defense system. it wouldn't be hard to program them to ignore ground units entirely, since they generally fight in interplanetary space or near jump points. likewise it wouldn't be hard to program them to only use nukes against enemy warships if cleared by the ground station first. 

It shouldn't have been hard for them to be programed to not shoot up Merchant ships, but they still did.  Mistakes Happen, Computers aren't perfect.
Again, do you really want the fall out, literal & figurative, that comes from giving Nukes to Robots?

Note, the canon fluff has them gathering around the destination planet, not the jump points.

and while caspars were deployed in large numbers, so were other warships. this was the age of actual fleets, when invasion forces often had scores of warships and hundreds of dropships. and as we see in the canon encounters with caspars, invasion forces against caspar defended systems had an order of magnitude more. even subject to 'standard issue stupid pills' the designers would have to be aware of how ther defenses could be swamped by a superior force, and at least plan for the option of issuing nuclear weapons to their defensive drones as a force modifier. after all, when it comes to war "if you aint cheating, you aint trying"

And I can cheat very easily with my Maned Human Controlled non Robotic standard Issue Warships.
Or are you under the assumption that the 2000+ Warship SLDF Navy didn't still have Warships deployed in nearly every system.

I don't need to give nukes to my 50 Caspars, its a rare enough weapon that having them deployed on my "Insert Capital Missile or ASF carrying Warship here" should be enough.

The Caspars were damned effective when having to face the entire SLDF themselves after being taken over by Amaris, and unthinkable & unplanned for situation.
What chance did a single House Fleet have against a typical SLDF + Caspar defensive force ?
  (none)