RATs v the MUL

[Blacknova]

Not being a big table top player, more a fluff junky, I was wondering what the opinion of dedicated table top players is to the following question:

Are Random Aassignment Tables now outdated due to the existence of the Master Unit List?

My thoughts being that the MUL is far more comprehensive and updateable compared to the RATs.  Additionally, it would free up page count in products for other information, or enough work from various books to allow for work on additional products.

Being completely ignorant of the use of RATs I am interested to see other people's views.

[Stormlion1]

I generally use the MUL, I find RAT's to be limiting. If I want to field a design I'll field a design and just say if asked-hey they captured it, happens all the time. With the RAT I can't do that.

[martian]

RATs aren't outdated. They are quick tool for selecting units when preparing game.
Have you noticed that each regiment has different equipment rating (A,B,C,D,E)? Militia uses different 'Mechs than Knights of the Inner Sphere. RATs will tell you which obsolete 'Mechs you should took in the first case, and which cutting edge machines in the second. That's information you can't find in the MUL.

[Blacknova]

Good point, not something I had even remotely considered. Perhaps a fuyure feature of the MUL - Type in a unit name and date and away you go.

[Ghostbear_Gurdel]

In my opinion the RATs are the base. They are the first step. I will roll up my entire force with the RAT, but this may get a little repetitive. With a front-line Clan unit that is fine, I am hoping for a lot of Omnimechs (and a star of 4 Mad Dogs is fine by me) but if i am rolling an IS faction that can be a problem. If I want more variety I can then consult the MUL and replace some duplicate mechs with mechs off the MUL that fit the unit and need. I find the MUL to be a little too broad though.

If I am understanding the MUL right, if a faction uses a mech even if there are only 10 mechs of a given chassis in the entire Military, it gets access. That is just to broad, so I use the MUL to flesh out a unit rolled up with a RAT.

[foxbat]

I am more of a MUL type myself, BV being the balancing tool. I like the idea of having a random force assigned though, but it's just that what we seem to get with the RATs is not as fun as forces picked from the MUL...

[Charlie Tango]

The RATs are a quick way of determining a force for a fight, given:  "I have a unit of X quality from Y house versus a unit of P quality from Q house". 

Now,  what is on the RAT at each level can be used as a good guideline for then choosing forces from the MUL; it gives a good idea of what quality of "equivalent" units would be available to a unit at each given level.

[Stormfury]

The problem with the Field Manual RATs is that they suffer from a bad case of codex creep; the Free Worlds League and Draconis Combine are heavily outclassed by the remaining Houses, so using those RATs to determine forces puts them at a serious disadvantage. Several units are also at too low (much more rarely, too high) a supply rating to obtain machines they are supposed to deploy in numbers- the Legions of Vega, for example, cannot generate the No-Dachi they are supposed to have in the greatest concentration at the time.

The RATs in FM: U are even worse, with the Federated Suns' chart being massively superior to everyone else's, to the point that an AFFS militia-grade unit is statistically likely to generate units of a mass and technology rating equivalent to or better than what is offered by the best-supplied elite formations of other Houses. The discrepencies between better-supplied AFFS units and those of other nations is even more glaring. Until ColBosch issued an errata ruling to remove the text from Total Warfare referring to it, the Field Manuals were advised in favour of the RAT presented therein. TW's RAT should statistically generate forces that are reasonably close in technology levels and mass*.

Then there's the tables in the new FM: 3085, which has things like the Morgenstern fighter on the WIE charts but not on those of the LAAF which commissioned the design.

Obviously there are only so many slots to go around, but...

I would be happier with RATs if units from the same supply rating generated similar results for technology level and mass, ie an A-Rated DCMS unit should have a reasonably similar level of technology deployment to a comparable one from the Capellan Confederation, Free Worlds League, or whatever. If you want to have underdog fights it is still then possible to use lower supply ratings, different experience levels, and so on. Admittedly Periphery and Mercenary lists will and should suffer in comparison.

That said, I can imagine the horrors of trying to set up tables that provide such a result.

Some RATs can be used as a good way to get a feel of what a faction or unit may be deploying on top of material in TRs or individual unit entries. Some RATs are also less than helpful in that regard, especially if you find yourself on the receiving end of the imbalance between factional RATs.

The MUL is a solid source, but it is ultimately a binary yes/no availablity list. On the one hand, that's exactly what it is for; on the other hand, a Common/Uncommon/Rare frequency entry beside the availabilities would be a good feature, one day.

*RAT analysis spreadsheet for FM: U and TW below.

[Frabby]

RATs and the MUL are two distinct things, working from a different angle to achieve different goals.

The MUL is an official and canonical unit list that provides availability, but not relative abundance, of individual designs for each faction. It is a very useful tool when you're writing a story or designing a scenario.

RATs are tailored tables included with a variety of products. They are official, but canon-wise they're expressly said to be inaccurate because they are tweaked for the specific product they're appearing in, to provide roughly balanced fights. They are a gaming tool more than a (reliable) in-universe data source.

[Kit deSummersville]

*RAT analysis spreadsheet for FM: U and TW below.

Note: The newest of these is a half-decade old and neither were designed by Catalyst, nor are they supposed to be finely balanced.

[MadCapellan]

For the the record, the Morgenstern doesn't appear on the Lyran ASF RAT because it doesn't exist until 3086.  The Wolves-In-Exile RAT includes it in error.

[Taharqa]

The RAT is an important first step for me, particularly in generating OpFors for my campaign. I just don't always trust myself too generate randomness correctly. Of course, sometimes the RATs are too random (e.g. rolling a lance of light mechs and getting movement profiles from 8/12/8 to 4/6/0). So I usually do a lot of post-roll tweaking and swapping to get something that seems a reasonable balance between planned organization and resource constraints. But I generally try to keep my tweaks and replacements within the same ballpark of equipment level and BV.

[Maniac Actual]

RATs and the MUL are two distinct things, working from a different angle to achieve different goals.

The MUL is an official and canonical unit list that provides availability, but not relative abundance, of individual designs for each faction. It is a very useful tool when you're writing a story or designing a scenario.

RATs are tailored tables included with a variety of products. They are official, but canon-wise they're expressly said to be inaccurate because they are tweaked for the specific product they're appearing in, to provide roughly balanced fights. They are a gaming tool more than a (reliable) in-universe data source.

+1

I like RAT's becuase I'm the guy who buys all the books, and thus I'm the one who generates all the OPFOR's.   The MUL is also only on-line in it's most recent version, a definite drawback for those of us in rural america.

The MUL, as Frabby said, provides availibilty, not abudance.  When creating an OPFOR, I wan't it to be "cannonical" (if that's a word) - something the OPFOR unit would really use.

For example, the OPFORunits that the next nearest group to me (better than an hour away) fields tend to be heavy on super cool new units and custom units, not the veritiable hodge-podge of not-so-new units that the 3085 RAT lists.

Are both battles fun?  Sure.  But I'm a purist, and so both the MUL and the RAT have their uses - as they were intended to.

Now, I would like the MUL to have a "presence" rating - i.e. "This varient is rare.  No more than 1 per battaltion." or "This unit is common.  1 per lance."  If tha MUL had that, AND generated OPFOR's in regiment size (needed to run the multi-scenarion campaigns we like), I'd say ditch the RAT's.  Maybe.  If it wasn't on-line only.

[Martius]

Both serve different purposes. RATs are nice for generating OPFORs quickly but I usually use the MUL as the random rolls and often strange unit selections of the RATs can mess up forces quickly.

[Blackjack Jones]

As most have said, they're two entirely different things.

The MUL is the outside boundary of canon, which is useful for constructing forces outside the RATs random average. 
In addition, the BV and BF stats, and the listing of variant models make it much more useful for force construction.

The RATs are exactly what they say they are, emphasis on Random. While having value for giving insight to general availability,
they also are a poor method of force generation by themselves, as they cannot apply logic to force construction like "The last
Mech in this lance needs to be some kind of scout/spotter for these LRM boats we have".

[willydstyle]

If you were attempting to use RATs for: these are all of the units available to a faction, then yes, RATs are outdated, because that was never the purpose for them in the first place.

However, they're still useful to make a quick force if that's what you prefer to do, or if it's what the style of game calls for, without choosing your own units.

[Martius]

To be honest I rarely rolled on the RATs. I see them more as a quick way to select units. A list of iconic units used by the faction would suffice for me.

[Fallen_Raven]

RATs are great for randomly assigning units (that is only partially a joke) for a generic force. Toss a few dice and you get a force that feels like a particular faction. On the other hand you end up with the same generic list of 'mechs (or tanks or fighters or whatever) whenever you use the RATs. A small bonus is that using RATs forces players to occasonally use equipment outside of their comfort zone, which can lead to a more interesting and exciting game.

On the other hand, the MUL gives you access to the entire listing of units for a faction, allowing you to tailor a force (and abuse the fact that you can use a Daishi) to your liking. It takes longer, and your biases come into play, so the MUL is less ideal for OPFORs, but it allows you to play the force you want to play.

Both are different tools for different uses, and both have times when they are valuable.

[shadow_walker]

RAT will scratch the itch. MUL are the cream to make it go away.

[willydstyle]

On the other hand, the MUL gives you access to the entire listing of units for a faction, allowing you to tailor a force (and abuse the fact that you can use a Daishi) to your liking. It takes longer, and your biases come into play, so the MUL is less ideal for OPFORs, but it allows you to play the force you want to play.

Both are different tools for different uses, and both have times when they are valuable.

The MUL is best used if you are trying to make a force with "faction flavor" within some sort of balancing mechanism, such as BV2.  If someone says "Oh, the MUL says I can use Daishis, so I'll use 5" without any sort of other balancing mechanism, it isn't going to work very well.

Of course, it's perfectly legit to play without any sort of faction flavor as well.

[Paul]

Then there's the tables in the new FM: 3085, which has things like the Morgenstern fighter on the WIE charts but not on those of the LAAF which commissioned the design.

They're enormous, of course there will be some errors.
The efforts involved with the RATs in FM3085 far exceed any that have come before. To look at a single mistake and presume them of equal quality can only be done in ignorance of that amount of effort.

Paul

[MadCapellan]

Double post, sorry!

[MadCapellan]

As I pointed out earlier, the Morgenstern shouldn't appear on ANY RATs for this product, as it debuts in 3086.  Minor mistakes will happen.  Post it to errata and we'll see it sorted out. :)

[MarauderD]

Random note:  MadCapellan should be happy, after a quick statistical analysis, the CCAF has an advantage in medium, heavy, and assault mechs over the AFFS on the new FM 3085 RATs. This advantage exists as an average over the whole weight class, and at the F priority (rolls 2-12) and A priority (rolls 10-20).

While BV2 is an imperfect creation (and I know MadCapellan uses Adjusted Tonnage as his measure) a 100 BV advantage (or more) over three weight classes is nice if you are a Janshi!

[Blacknova]

Thanks for the pointers and thoughts guys. 

From what you are saying then, Xotl's faction availability tables, tied into Bigduke66's unit generation tables are a good middle groud, at least for the 3025-3050 eras which have been completed?

[ANS Kamas P81]

the Free Worlds League and Draconis Combine are heavily outclassed by the remaining Houses

Let the dead horse alone please.  They're one single tool of many, and frankly the new RATs we get in 3085 are pretty freakin' sweet even just from the preview.  Everyone gets plenty of good toys.

[Blackjack Jones]

Random note:  MadCapellan should be happy, after a quick statistical analysis, the CCAF has an advantage in medium, heavy, and assault mechs over the AFFS on the new FM 3085 RATs. This advantage exists as an average over the whole weight class, and at the F priority (rolls 2-12) and A priority (rolls 10-20).

While BV2 is an imperfect creation (and I know MadCapellan uses Adjusted Tonnage as his measure) a 100 BV advantage (or more) over three weight classes is nice if you are a Janshi!

Given how BV tends to overcharge on some things, that actually maybe a 100 BV burden.

I will admit after having a look at a friend's copy this weekend, the Capellan list is a bit unusual. Somehow having the most Clantech and still being tied for the most Introductory
designs for the surviving houses. Most of the major powers seem to have solid lists this time out, with even the FWL fragments having surprisingly modern firepower (3 royal variants?).
Apparently all the Retrotech went in the recycling bin immediately after the shooting stopped.

[Xotl]

Random note:  MadCapellan should be happy, after a quick statistical analysis, the CCAF has an advantage in medium, heavy, and assault mechs over the AFFS on the new FM 3085 RATs. This advantage exists as an average over the whole weight class, and at the F priority (rolls 2-12) and A priority (rolls 10-20).

While BV2 is an imperfect creation (and I know MadCapellan uses Adjusted Tonnage as his measure) a 100 BV advantage (or more) over three weight classes is nice if you are a Janshi!

Interesting.  It's worth pointing out that known Capellan partisan MadCap successfully convinced me a couple of times to lower the weight of the AFFS table, at the time I thought for purely selfless game balance reasons.  Now I see he plays a longer game...

[MadCapellan]

Random note:  MadCapellan should be happy, after a quick statistical analysis, the CCAF has an advantage in medium, heavy, and assault mechs over the AFFS on the new FM 3085 RATs. This advantage exists as an average over the whole weight class, and at the F priority (rolls 2-12) and A priority (rolls 10-20).

While BV2 is an imperfect creation (and I know MadCapellan uses Adjusted Tonnage as his measure) a 100 BV advantage (or more) over three weight classes is nice if you are a Janshi!

If you're judging purely by BV, then I don't really consider that an imbalance.  Units using stealth armor in conjunction with energy weapons are so heftily overcharged for the "privilege" that it really doesn't reflect an imbalance.

I will admit after having a look at a friend's copy this weekend, the Capellan list is a bit unusual. Somehow having the most Clantech and still being tied for the most Introductory
designs for the surviving houses.

The CCAF, LCAF, & DCMS each have three Clan 'Mechs each on their RAT.  Last I saw the draft, the AFFS did too.  What happened to them I don't know, I didn't do the 'Mech tables.

Apparently all the Retrotech went in the recycling bin immediately after the shooting stopped.

Yep.  The House militaries started tossing them out as soon as they had regular access to standard factory lines again.  They were a desperate, stop-gap measure.

Interesting.  It's worth pointing out that known Capellan partisan MadCap successfully convinced me a couple of times to lower the weight of the AFFS table, at the time I thought for purely selfless game balance reasons.  Now I see he plays a longer game...

By the math I'm doing, the weight averages are coming up the same, if not slightly in the Davion's favor.  Any effect my suggestions had bv-wise wasn't deliberate - I don't play with bv.

[Xotl]

By the math I'm doing, the weight averages are coming up the same, if not slightly in the Davion's favor.  Any effect my suggestions had bv-wise wasn't deliberate - I don't play with bv.

That was a joke, MadCap. :)  Everyone knows you don't use BV.

For the record, I had cocked up and given the AFFS table a brace of 75 tonners right in the statistical sweet-spot, which meant that the average Davion force was going to wipe the floor with even Clan opposition.  What's worse is that, after I fixed the error, I made it again in a future revision and MC had to correct me again.