Author Topic: EotW repost: Bearhunter Superheavy AC  (Read 18380 times)

jymset

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EotW repost: Bearhunter Superheavy AC
« on: 23 February 2012, 04:53:07 »
Originally posted on August 27th, 2010. At the time I had labelled it Equipment of the Year, as it was the first article of its kind in 2010. Though the EotW series is currently defunct, I owe it to my associate sillybrit and his brilliant BAotW series to put this back online in ways of support.


This is a special one-time EotW article is a quick-n-dirty write-up. Its intention is merely to raise awareness of a few parameters pertaining to a rather eclectic weapon. Maybe it can serve as a starting point for discussion?

Today, I want to look at a contentious piece of equipment, the Bearhunter Superheavy AC. It is known to us foremost as a rather unwieldy Battle Armor weapon that often incorrectly described as a “Heavy Machine Gun, but with +1 to hit” – indeed, it is actually worse than that, yet has a few other minor differences and only truly comes into its own in roles other than a standard BattleTech play Battle Armor weapon.


History

The Bearhunter was first seen both as a game weapon and an in-universe piece of equipment in Combat Equipment, or early 3060s. First created as a triple support AC for conventional troops by the Hell’s Horses, their disastrous showing against the Ghost Bears during the Horses' first stay in the Inner Sphere immediately spread the weapon amongst its intended target. Indeed, the weapon was first employed by a canon unit on the scary Ghost Bear Golem Battle Armor in the same publication.

Since then, it has been a weapon associated more closely with the Horses, as they fielded it on their own Gnome Upgrade (TRO 3058U), Afreet suit (TRO 3075) and in their heavy jump infantry (TRO 3085). It also remains a Ghost Bear weapon as their assault infantry at least are illustrated with it (they don't actually use it in their canon stats). The Bearhunter never became a 'Mech-grade weapon and hence its appearances, while prominent on Battle Armor, are few and far between.

Side note 1: yes, I am aware of the infantry only being examples, their stats' intended use being generic; nevertheless an image is created in TRO 3085 which is what I was commenting on above. Side note 2: it is ironic that the Golem suit itself spread back to the Horses and their own versions are noticeably lacking the Bearhunter. This may be a prudent reflection on their utterly lacklustre game performance, which brings me neatly to…


Stats

The Bearhunter is all about damage at the expense of everything else, which holds true for all incarnations of the weapon, even at its most displaced. Fatefully, this displaced usage is also the most common one: as a Battle Armor weapon in standard BT play. As such, let’s look at this not-an-HMG.

The similarities compared to the HMG are manifest, both weapons doing 3 damage, causing burst damage against infantry, weighing 150 kgs and having a maximum range of only 2 hexes. The difference lies in the detail:

The Bearhunter has a +1 modifier to hit, representing the heavy recoil (game rule – refer to table in TW, p. 305).

The ranges are fundamentally different. The HMG has a short range of 1, medium range of 2 and no long range. The Bearhunter has a vastly inferior range bracket of 0/1/2. Now add to that the fact that TW, p. 218 states "All weapon attacks against units in the same hex as the battle armor unit are considered to be at Range 1, except anti-personnel weapons, which are at Range 0." and we have a problem. Effectively, what this translates to in terms of to-hit modifiers is:

Weapon              Range 0   Range 1   Range 2   Range 3

HMG                 +0        +0        +2        –
Bearhunter          +3        +3        +5        –


Clearly, the Bearhunter is vastly inferior.

On top of that, the Bearhunter takes up 2 slots vs the HMG's 1 slot on a Battle Armor.

Finally, proving my "damage above anything else" point, there is a tiny redeeming feature of the Bearhunter. The specific footnote on the table, TW p. 305 states that the weapon should be treated as a Flamer vs infantry. Turning back to page 217 then clearly shows us that the Bearhunter does 3D6 vs the HMG’s 2D6 damage (both are BA grade).

So in summary, the weapon's range and to-hit modifiers suck, but it is the only one to combine 3 conventional damage with 3D6 anti-infantry damage. No, it is not worth it, but this is the slight caveat to calling it 100% outclassed by the HMG.

Surely this cannot be it, right?

Right!

Even Combat Equipment way back when was mostly concerned with the RPG aspect of the game (back then MW3) – the Support Vehicle construction rules that were first released in that book were focused on enriching the RPG aspect of the universe, too.

Thus, it is with great satisfaction that I can confirm that the Bearhunter is the true buzzsaw of AToW. Actually, I cannot, I am not well-versed in the RPG. Still, it takes a fool not to realise that the Bearhunter is vastly superior to anything else in terms of armor penetration and pure damage (and fire rate, if I interpret the data correctly, but feel free to jump in here) both in the BA (pp. 215 & 403) and conventional (p. 273) versions.

And this is translated directly into the conventional infantry version. Have a look at the tables in TM, pp. 349-352. There is nothing, I repeat nothing there that comes close to the Bearhunter’s damage. Forget its lacklustre range and to-hit modifiers. It is the supreme damage multiplier for conventional infantry. Sure, it can only be fielded in lots of 1-per-squad, but look at what it does to the jump infantry in TRO: 3085, p. 211. That is some scary stuff.


Usage

This is where I ask for your own takes.

As a huge Battle Armor fan, I personally like the weapon for its added in-universe flavour, but cannot really abide it for its stats. While it has the nice option of high-level damage vs both armoured and conventional targets, its intrinsic negative traits are an instant disqualifier. The unit carrying it needs to close and suffer return fire. As such, it needs to be both tough and quick; the three canon units carrying it (Afreet, Gnome, Golem) only do one of the two.

There is no situation in which I would not rather have an HMG. But mentioning this, I would correct myself and then choose the Flamer over either weapon. I am gladly prepared to drop 1 point of anti-armour damage to gain a hex of range and have the fire options at my disposal. Right now, without additional, optional rules, the Bearhunter cannot really compete with other Battle Armor weaponry of the 150 kg weight bracket.

Further factors are covered above, such as damage multiplier for PBI and fearsome RPG equipment - I'll stop now and let you do the rambling!


So there you have it. The RPG weapon that translates as "lacklustre" for BA and "scary" for infantry; feared in-universe, scorned by casual gamers and ultimately, a very interesting and colourful addition to the BT universe. I hope this quick write-up has piqued your interest and more importantly – made you check you used it accurately when fielding it.


One thing that did not survive the forum transition was an additional section on how to counter the Bearhunter. IIRC, it went like this: "Shoot at BA fielding the Bearhunter with anything that has a 3+ range. The end."
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Re: EotW repost: Bearhunter Superheavy AC
« Reply #1 on: 23 February 2012, 06:48:12 »
Idle thought: considering the FedSuns love for auto cannons, how long before they try to duplicate this themselves?

Hmm, already adjusting stats for this.....
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Re: EotW repost: Bearhunter Superheavy AC
« Reply #2 on: 23 February 2012, 08:56:17 »
There are alot of quirks I'll tolerate in the name of fluff, variety, and new things to try on the table top, but the Bearhunter is just too terrible for me to countenance. I assume the scientists that developed it must have been Society members working to further cripple the warrior caste.

Idle thought: considering the FedSuns love for auto cannons, how long before they try to duplicate this themselves?

Hmm, already adjusting stats for this.....
If the FS got a hold of a Bearhunter and improved upon it the same way they improved on other IS BA Gauss weapons with the Magshot, then the IS will have their answer to the APGR.

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Re: EotW repost: Bearhunter Superheavy AC
« Reply #3 on: 23 February 2012, 12:53:05 »
The APGR is the Clan answer to the Magshot, the result of having better hardware in most respects.  I don't see the IS meeting Clantech on even terms there for quite a while but they can get reasonable performance out of recoilless rifles or Magshots depending on what you're trying to do.

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Re: EotW repost: Bearhunter Superheavy AC
« Reply #4 on: 23 February 2012, 14:41:40 »
There is a problem here, in the rules somehow.

The Bearhunter is supposed to be a desirable weapon, the product of advanced clan technology.

Yet, something a periphery nation designed is far superior.

--------------------------

I don't know who to talk to about errata, but I think the real solution here is simple. Adapt the rules for Armor-Piercing AC/2 ammo to the Bearhunter. It gives it fearsome capabilities that make it meet it's in-universe hype, without being so overpowering as to break the game.

I'd further adapt it with a special rule that it does normal damage vs armored PBIs (normally take 2 pts to kill, but a bearhunter's AP nature should be able to pierce through simple infantry heavy armor.

The only issue I can see is if you had to apply this to swarming attacks, but you could do fine giving it's AP ability the same yes/no on whether Rifle Cannon's do their full or reduced damage.

What do you guys think about that?
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Re: EotW repost: Bearhunter Superheavy AC
« Reply #5 on: 23 February 2012, 15:21:28 »
Well, vs conventional infantry, the 3D6 damage kinda takes care of business.

As for armored targets, I agree that there should be some kind of bonus at least vs targeted battle armor.
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Re: EotW repost: Bearhunter Superheavy AC
« Reply #6 on: 23 February 2012, 16:09:08 »
This is a weapon I want to love, and it gets the job done...in the RPG.  But as a tabletop weapon, which could fit on Toad suits, its awful.  I'll just take a micro pulse for the TH bonus and be done with it.  I can find the 10 kilos somewhere. 

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Re: EotW repost: Bearhunter Superheavy AC
« Reply #7 on: 23 February 2012, 20:40:56 »
Well, vs conventional infantry, the 3D6 damage kinda takes care of business.

As for armored targets, I agree that there should be some kind of bonus at least vs targeted battle armor.

Maybe having it inflict +1 damage vs battle armor only, but normal damage to heavier armor like tanks and mechs?
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Re: EotW repost: Bearhunter Superheavy AC
« Reply #8 on: 23 February 2012, 21:32:35 »
The Bearhunter is without a doubt one of the best 150kg clubs that you can use to whomp an enemy on the back of the head. It also makes for an excellent paperweight or emergency anchor, although for the latter I must admit I prefer to instead use PA(L)s and quad Battle Armor when possible.

With all its faults, unless playing purely in the RPG environment, the Bear-in-the-woods is on my Do Not Want list. Even with its high anti-infantry damage - that, as jymset noted, is matched by the much superior flamer - it is so lacking in the BattleTech tactical game that players typically use it just for flavor, canonicity, giggles or similar reasons.

Personally, I think the BH is so bad that it really wouldn't be unbalancing for the Suns - naming them purely because they're nuts about both Battle Armor and autocannon - to field it without change, and I can think of only one other Clantech weapon (the ER Micro) that I'd include in that list. For me, that is the most damning comment possible.

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Re: EotW repost: Bearhunter Superheavy AC
« Reply #9 on: 24 February 2012, 00:12:17 »
While this article is about its godawful what-were-they-thinking performance (Seriously, they should've changed it to 4d6 per shot per Bearhunter vs Battlearmor and Infantry. That would've made it a superlative weapon against Infantry and Battlearmor where you have instagib territory against the heaviest suits in the game.), I do remember someone playing out average rolls with a Golem vs Kanazuchi. After one round of combat, the Golem pilot was miserable but alive and alert while the Kanazuchi pilot was passing out and short an arm. 

Though that was under MW3's rules. Still completely vicious against suits.


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Re: EotW repost: Bearhunter Superheavy AC
« Reply #10 on: 24 February 2012, 00:58:57 »
If you want to have the crunch match the fluff, giving it an Ultra-like effect of multiple shots rolled on the missile table would match the massive recoil description as well as giving it a bit of a firepower boost. You could probably do away with the jamming effect too since it needs quite a bit of help to overcome the extreme TH numbers. It still wouldn't make it great since it would only be about another 25% damage, and even then, 2 x 3 damage isn't going to be the be all and end all of BA combat, but it would certainly be better than what it is now.

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Re: EotW repost: Bearhunter Superheavy AC
« Reply #11 on: 24 February 2012, 05:02:30 »
The Bearhunter certainly seems to win out in the RPG much more than in the boardgame for various reasons. When used on Battle Armor, the design has the best AP of all the Battle Armor Weapons, and one of the highest Base Damages. The rate of fire is also incredible, allowing you to cover 18 square meters of terrain in suppression fire attacks. Against single targets, its almost overkill. You're throwing so many bullets at your target that you'll never get a Margin of Success big enough to utilize the entire damage bonus that those bullets could provide (of course, with its AP and Base damage, you don't NEED to utilize the entire bonus).

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Re: EotW repost: Bearhunter Superheavy AC
« Reply #12 on: 25 February 2012, 05:26:39 »
Maybe having it inflict +1 damage vs battle armor only, but normal damage to heavier armor like tanks and mechs?
Double-damage vs. BA would fit better.
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Re: EotW repost: Bearhunter Superheavy AC
« Reply #13 on: 14 April 2012, 02:30:31 »
Looks like Tac Ops has introduced a Battle Armor vs Battle Armor table. 3d6 for a Bearhunter shooting a battle suit. And flamers get bonuses too. Okay, its still short short ranged and inaccurate, but there is something to be said for lobbing 10 point shots.

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Re: EotW repost: Bearhunter Superheavy AC
« Reply #14 on: 14 April 2012, 06:08:21 »
There is.  I'm really not sure how I feel about that, personally, but the fact that most of the modern generation of suits can plink a Bearhunter-armed unit to death outside its own range settles my nerves significantly.

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Re: EotW repost: Bearhunter Superheavy AC
« Reply #15 on: 14 April 2012, 09:47:30 »
The Bearhunter got an upgrade?  Hallelujah.  Now it can actually do something an HMG can't do better.
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Re: EotW repost: Bearhunter Superheavy AC
« Reply #16 on: 14 April 2012, 10:02:19 »
This makes sense to me. The Horses did develop it specifically to take down battlesuits, after all.

I wonder if there's a way for conventional infantry to get the anti-BA bonus. That is where they were first deployed, after all.
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jymset

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Re: EotW repost: Bearhunter Superheavy AC
« Reply #17 on: 14 April 2012, 10:42:18 »
Well, to be fair, the Bearhunter already is a durned good infantry weapon, or was, comparatively speaking. The new rule seems to stress the special attribute of the cannon to go through BA armour.

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Re: EotW repost: Bearhunter Superheavy AC
« Reply #18 on: 14 April 2012, 12:46:41 »
This makes sense to me. The Horses did develop it specifically to take down battlesuits, after all.

I wonder if there's a way for conventional infantry to get the anti-BA bonus. That is where they were first deployed, after all.
The platoons using it in TRO3085 are scary enough. Also, as the BH (infantry version) got the magical range upgrade - using only one as support weapon per squad, of course  - there is no need for more omprovement. IMHO.  ;)
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Re: EotW repost: Bearhunter Superheavy AC
« Reply #19 on: 14 April 2012, 12:53:29 »
Makes it much more useful in built up and urban environments.  Can't wait for MM to implement it.

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Re: EotW repost: Bearhunter Superheavy AC
« Reply #20 on: 14 April 2012, 13:22:49 »
Holy crap, I just realized how much damage 3d6 is. 10.5 damage on average, so a good amount of the time it will one-shot an Elemental. Sure, the range is quite poor, but those two hexes went from "try to stay away so they can't hit me" to "stay away under any and all circumstances because I will DIE if I go near them." 

Even the basic flamer got its damage more than doubled vs. BA. The Salamander is even more of a monster and the Rabid looks a little better.

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Re: EotW repost: Bearhunter Superheavy AC
« Reply #21 on: 14 April 2012, 16:14:53 »
There is.  I'm really not sure how I feel about that, personally, but the fact that most of the modern generation of suits can plink a Bearhunter-armed unit to death outside its own range settles my nerves significantly.
I can think of two concepts that nullify the range issue. Before they were not worth the effort because the concepts chewed up too much mass to carry useful weapons. But if the Bearhunter can OSK an Elemental both of these suits become the BA equivilants of Firemoth Hs.

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Re: EotW repost: Bearhunter Superheavy AC
« Reply #22 on: 14 April 2012, 16:17:47 »
Speed/combat drops and/or city fights?
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Re: EotW repost: Bearhunter Superheavy AC
« Reply #23 on: 14 April 2012, 16:35:35 »
I can think of two concepts that nullify the range issue. Before they were not worth the effort because the concepts chewed up too much mass to carry useful weapons. But if the Bearhunter can OSK an Elemental both of these suits become the BA equivilants of Firemoth Hs.

So can I, which is why I'm not entirely sanguine about it.  But I'm not inclined to argue the point excessively.

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Re: EotW repost: Bearhunter Superheavy AC
« Reply #24 on: 14 April 2012, 17:02:11 »
Very much agreed. It's all be done by someone.

Speed/combat drops and/or city fights?
One of the few downsides of having a Battlemaster icon is you can't post anything any more for fear of it getting used one day. Lets say that speed is inherent and cities are optional. Of course these are nearly pure hunter/killer options nearly useless for anything else.

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Re: EotW repost: Bearhunter Superheavy AC
« Reply #25 on: 14 April 2012, 17:10:36 »
Ah.
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Re: EotW repost: Bearhunter Superheavy AC
« Reply #26 on: 17 April 2012, 11:08:03 »
I can think of two concepts that nullify the range issue. Before they were not worth the effort because the concepts chewed up too much mass to carry useful weapons. But if the Bearhunter can OSK an Elemental both of these suits become the BA equivilants of Firemoth Hs.

They're also one of the few suits that can take out things like a Kanazuchi squad efficiently, or that IS suit that can shrug off pretty much anything short of an AC/20. Never mind the stuff that doesn't go for really thick armor- a Bearhunter will generally shred one on a hit.

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Re: EotW repost: Bearhunter Superheavy AC
« Reply #27 on: 17 April 2012, 15:43:43 »
I'm pretty sure you're thinking of Ravagers.

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Re: EotW repost: Bearhunter Superheavy AC
« Reply #28 on: 17 April 2012, 20:04:04 »
So, just so I get this straight, against BA and infantry the Bearhunters do 3d6 damage - is the BA damage 3d6 per gun?  Because dear god a point of Golems is putting out a minimum of 30 damage like that and averaging 105 - it's a 3/4 chance of putting out enough firepower even to kill other Golem points in a single round...
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Re: EotW repost: Bearhunter Superheavy AC
« Reply #29 on: 17 April 2012, 20:36:26 »
Gunnery 3. Be generous and say you are fighting Warg's Defensive Mod 1. +1 for being a Bearhunter

0 Hex Range = 3 + 1 + 2 +1 = 7 to hit
1 Hex Range = 3 + 1 + 2 +1 = 7 to hit
2 Hex Range = 3 + 1 + 4 +1 = 9 to hit

Make that Gnomes and you have to deal with a Defensive Mod of 2.

0 Hex Range = 3 + 2 + 2 +1 = 8 to hit
1 Hex Range = 3 + 2 + 2 +1 = 8 to hit
2 Hex Range = 3 + 2 + 4 +1 = 10 to hit

Against an Elemental

0 Hex Range = 3 + 3 + 2 +1 = 9 to hit
1 Hex Range = 3 + 3 + 2 +1 = 9 to hit
2 Hex Range = 3 + 3 + 4 +1 = 11 to hit

Yeah, 3D6 is brutal. At one hex range. Even against a stationary target there is a 50% chance of a miss. Against more mobile or stealthy suits you are looking at 1:3 type chances.

From the opening page we have this
Weapon              Range 0   Range 1   Range 2   Range 3

HMG                 +0        +0        +2        –
Bearhunter          +3        +3        +5        –


At say 2 hexes against a Gnome a HMG needs

2 Hex Range = 3 + 2 + 2 = 7 to hit

So at 2 hexes a HMG has a 58% chance of a hit while a BH has a 17% chance of a hit.
0.58 x 3 damage = 1.75 average damage.

The average roll for 3D6 is 10.5.
0.17 x 10.5 = 1.75 average damage.

Against an Elemental it becomes HMG 1.25, BH 0.875.
Against the Warg its HMG 2.17, BH 2.91

At 1 and 0 hex ranges the the BH pulls away heavily doing two to three times the damage.

Simply, very few weapons match the BH for its weight, under 2 hexes. Ideally you want to be fighting near stationary targets at 1 hex or less. Thats not easy to achieve.