Building a non-crummy noble Character in AToW... Possible?

[Lagomorph]

Hey all. I've been trying to build a hereditary noble character in AToW and have discovered that I can't find a way to adhere to the rules and not make them, well, suck. Between pre-requisites for a noble, the cap on negative traits you're allowed to purchase outside of your life paths and the inability to shave XP points in the optimization phase below a skill's/trait's nearest lower level, there just aren't enough points to go around for pesky things like decent attributes, vehicles or traits for fluff (like attractive or fast learner). Has anyone been able to square-the-circle with this and make a hereditary noble character who's actually a reasonably playable character? The only way I can see is to bend the rules (with the GM's permission, of course) and take on more negative traits that the rulebook allows... And that's WITH some pretty middling attributes.

[Deathknight69]

From my exp., Not really. I'm making a set of pc's for a 3067/Jihad era merc unit. The older the character, the more bad stuff you have to take to get something of what you want. Or re-work the system with your gm. Have you tried the points build system yet?? Me, No but will take a shot on it soon.

[Jackmc]

Has the noble actually inheireted the title yet?  If not, then they don't have to pay for it, all they have to do is take the Noble lp. 

If they have inheirted it, then they don't suck, they are just powerful in a different way.  I can drop 1600 points into skills, Vehicle and Custom Vehicle and end up as a veteran MW who owns a very choice assault mech or I can drop 1600 points into Title, Property and Connections and end up as a Baron who is escorted by a bodyguard lance of /Elite/ MW's in equally choice assault mechs and be secure with the knowledge that in a pinch I can call up at least another company of household guard and probably more like a combiend arms regiment. 

-Jackmc

[Lagomorph]

Has the noble actually inheireted the title yet?  If not, then they don't have to pay for it, all they have to do is take the Noble lp. 

Alas, you still have to pay for it if the character is heir to a title. It's just 100 XP less than the standard cost to that title. The lowest "heirable" title is Baronet, which is 500 XP on its own. Thus, you still have to sink 400 XP into it.

[Lagomorph]

Have you tried the points build system yet?? Me, No but will take a shot on it soon.

Not yet. Life paths offer the XP rebates though for skills gained in academy courses, which make it more attractive, even if character creation is a pain.

I've been pretty okay with AToW, needlessly complicated character creation aside BUUUUT.... This snag with the Noble is kind of making me miss 2nd edition, as least from a character creation standpoint. Back then, you could have a noble who was decent. I think the Young Noble archetype in the 2nd edition rule book is one of the most playable pre-generated characters from that book.

[E. Icaza]

The point buy system is far superior to the Life Paths, IMO.  The lifepath system in AToW feels like one of those compromises forced into the system to appease the players who wanted lifepaths, but the end result was less than ideal. 

[Cannon_Fodder]

The issue with the Life Modules is you also end up with skills you may not need. Those points can be better spent where you need them. I like the Life Modules because you end up with a slightly more rounded character. But the Points Buy may be the solution to your character issue.

[monbvol]

Maybe my notion of crummy is way off but I've managed to make a few respectable nobles as far as killing things skills go.

One of the tricks is to remember that the 5 trait points required by the Noble Stage 1 Module can be any combination of Wealth, Title, or Property.  Wealth 5 with the Equipped that a Noble tends to wind up with can be a very potent combination.

Also keep an eye on the aging rules.  I know not everyone uses the +100 per year past 21 for an Inner Sphere character and 18 for a Clan character but if it is in use it can help.  Even if it is not the table on page 333 is intended to be in use.  That can free up a lot of XP from your character's attributes.

As far as the Modules versus Point Buy, each has their advantages.  There is a lot more freedom of choice in the Modules than it may seem and sometimes those useless skills can suddenly become quite useful.  Point Buy I find to be an absolute advantage for Clan Affiliation characters.

[Jackmc]

OK, just rans the paths to be sure:

5000 pt build

Paths

S1: Nobility
S2: Prep School
S3: Academy + OCS

What I ended up with is what I'd expect at the end of Stage 3:

a Green MW in a Lt. Mech with all atts at 4 except for a 2 in EDG; however, this particular mechawarrior was a Lt & Baronet with gregarious and 2 TP in Wealth, 1 TP In conenctions and +3 TP in Rep.  I also only used 400 of the 500 elective negative traits so I could easily make him a 4/5 if I wanted to.

If I chose to age him to 25, i'd have 700 more poitns to play with which would easily allow him to be a veteran in a medium or heavy mech.  So, i got to say, I'm realyl not seeing it.


-Jackmc

[Lagomorph]

One of the tricks is to remember that the 5 trait points required by the Noble Stage 1 Module can be any combination of Wealth, Title, or Property.  Wealth 5 with the Equipped that a Noble tends to wind up with can be a very potent combination.

But are they still a noble if you don't actually buy the Title trait?

OK, just rans the paths to be sure:

5000 pt build

What I ended up with is what I'd expect at the end of Stage 3:

a Green MW in a Lt. Mech with all atts at 4 except for a 2 in EDG; however, this particular mechawarrior was a Lt & Baronet with gregarious and 2 TP in Wealth, 1 TP In conenctions and +3 TP in Rep.  I also only used 400 of the 500 elective negative traits so I could easily make him a 4/5 if I wanted to.

Again, I'm not seeing any XP put towards the title trait. What's the total trait load out of your build?

[monbvol]

At least in Battletech it does seem possible for someone to be Nobility even without what AToW considers the Title trait.

Though to be fully honest a lot of that mess is why I created a few of my house rules.

[Cannon_Fodder]

I agree that you can nobility without a title trait. But without the trait you do not have nor immediate heir to a title.

[Jackmc]

Again, I'm not seeing any XP put towards the title trait.

Baronet = 5 TP in title


What I ended up with was:

Aff: FWL/Oriente
S1: Nobility
S2: Prep School
S3: Mil. Acad
S3b: OCS

Atts: all 4 (except EDG)
EDG: 2

Rep: 3
Equipped: 2
Enemy: 2
Glass Jaw: 3
Wealth: 2
Connections: 1
Gregarious: 1
Rank: 4
Title: 5
Vehicle: 2
Unspecified Neg Traits: 4

Lang/English: +1
Lang/Greek: +0
Lang/Spanish: +1
Perception: +1
Art/Drawing: +0
Appraisal: +0
Negotiation: +0
Tech/Mechanic: +1
Interest/Cartography: +1
Protocol/FWL: +4
Archery: +0
Computers: +0
Interest/Star League History: +0
Interest/Disasporas +0
Med Tech: +1
Melee Weaps: +2
Interest/Mil. History: +0
Leadership: +2
Swimming: +0
Career/Soldier: +1
Martial Arts: +1
Nav/Ground: +1
Small Arms: +1
Gun/Mech: +3
Pilot/Mech: +2
Sensor Ops: +1
Tactics/Ground: +1
Training: +1
Admin: +2



-Jackmc

[Lagomorph]

Baronet = 5 TP in title


What I ended up with was:

Aff: FWL/Oriente
S1: Nobility
S2: Prep School
S3: Mil. Acad
S3b: OCS

Atts: all 4 (except EDG)
EDG: 2

Rep: 3
Equipped: 2
Enemy: 2
Glass Jaw: 3
Wealth: 2
Connections: 1
Gregarious: 1
Rank: 4
Title: 5
Vehicle: 2
Unspecified Neg Traits: 4

Lang/English: +1
Lang/Greek: +0
Lang/Spanish: +1
Perception: +1
Art/Drawing: +0
Appraisal: +0
Negotiation: +0
Tech/Mechanic: +1
Interest/Cartography: +1
Protocol/FWL: +4
Archery: +0
Computers: +0
Interest/Star League History: +0
Interest/Disasporas +0
Med Tech: +1
Melee Weaps: +2
Interest/Mil. History: +0
Leadership: +2
Swimming: +0
Career/Soldier: +1
Martial Arts: +1
Nav/Ground: +1
Small Arms: +1
Gun/Mech: +3
Pilot/Mech: +2
Sensor Ops: +1
Tactics/Ground: +1
Training: +1
Admin: +2



-Jackmc

Thanks! Gives me something to work around and is very similar to what I had in mind. But a question: Does topping off the Glass Jaw trait not count from your negative XP cap? The life path gives you -100. I figured that the other -200 had to come from the -500 you're allowed, thus leaving you with a max of another -300 XP for negative traits. Is that not the case?

[Cannon_Fodder]

No. topping off a partial negative trait does not count towards the 10% extra negative traits you can buy.

[Jackmc]

No. topping off a partial negative trait does not count towards the 10% extra negative traits you can buy.

This.  A cunning player will research the possible lifepath combinations for LP's that only give a few points in a negative trait.  With a little planning, it's fairly easy to rack up 500+ points from filling out those negative traits.



-Jackmc

[Lagomorph]

double post

[Lagomorph]

No. topping off a partial negative trait does not count towards the 10% extra negative traits you can buy.

This.  A cunning player will research the possible lifepath combinations for LP's that only give a few points in a negative trait.  With a little planning, it's fairly easy to rack up 500+ points from filling out those negative traits.
-Jackmc

AHHhh.... That makes quite a difference! I had that all wrong. That gives me some more points to play with.

Jackmc, thanks again for the example. It's really helped me get a sense of how to lay out the character and make me really think about needs vs. wants. When I say it's pretty close to what I had in mind, I mean it, right down to the stopping after life-path 3. I'm trying to make a fresh out of the academy greenhorn. There are a few differences, but it's close enough to be a big help for me.

Also, I'd assume a tiered trait, like Enemy, can't be bulked up beyond what the life path gives you without drawing from the -500 XP cap. Correct?

[Jackmc]

Jackmc, thanks again for the example. It's really helped me get a sense of how to lay out the character and make me really think about needs vs. wants.

No problem.  One thing I did think of last night is that it depends on what type of game you are playing.  ATOW is designed to be an acutal RPG not just a addon to the BT board game which means that things that have little to no effect on the board game can still be very expensive in ATOW and since you only have one set of points, you can end up with a character that's powerful in roleplaying that actually has little utility in a game that is focused heavuly on standard BT mech combat.  If playing in a game like that, I'd suggest raising the character's age to 25.  That move automatically generates 400 more points plus you'll get 300 more points thanks to the aging table.  If you dump all 700 of those into board game-related skills/ traits, you'll be much happier.

-Jackmc

[Jackmc]

Also, I'd assume a tiered trait, like Enemy, can't be bulked up beyond what the life path gives you without drawing from the -500 XP cap. Correct?

Yeah.  unfortunately, the Nobility Lifepath assigns the enemy at an even -200 which means upping it comes out of your -500 cap.

-Jackmc

[Lagomorph]

No problem.  One thing I did think of last night is that it depends on what type of game you are playing.  ATOW is designed to be an acutal RPG not just a addon to the BT board game which means that things that have little to no effect on the board game can still be very expensive in ATOW and since you only have one set of points, you can end up with a character that's powerful in roleplaying that actually has little utility in a game that is focused heavuly on standard BT mech combat.  If playing in a game like that, I'd suggest raising the character's age to 25.  That move automatically generates 400 more points plus you'll get 300 more points thanks to the aging table.  If you dump all 700 of those into board game-related skills/ traits, you'll be much happier.

-Jackmc

Good suggestion. I'll go that route for other characters for sure, but this particular one I want minty fresh to the battle field. Her ride will even have that new mech smell. ;-)

[Tslammer]

The standard ATOW in mech system is designed around 4 being the ideal budget attribute. +4 is also the highest skill level for your Piloting and Gunnery and you Ignore link. Out of mech your stats and skill levels mean more which is quite broken.

I have always envisioned mech warriors like fighter pilots driving tanks. In mech combat the ATOW system makes Steve Urkel and Bruce Lee feel the same.

[monbvol]

To head off some miss-information from adding attributes and the box on Page 40:

Skill Checks: Trained Skill Checks automatically apply the Skill
Level, any relevant Linked Attribute modifiers, and any conditional
modifiers the gamemaster sees fit.

“Superhuman” Skills: Because Total Warfare does not recognize Skills
with a TN of less than 0, any Skills converted from A Time of War that fall
below a TN of 0 must be treated as 0 in Total Warfare game play (unless all
players agree to allow such “superhuman” abilities in the game).

So attribute modifiers to Piloting and Gunnery can be applied.

Even if not the Mechwarrior character should still pay attention to their Will and Bod scores.  Go too low on those and a single hit to the Mech's Head and the pilot could out like a light for the rest of the fight.

And of further advantage are the Special Pilot Abilities.  Many require attribute minimums on top of skill minimums.  Some of those can be quite broken in their own right.

So I'd say there is a huge difference between a Steve Urkel and a Bruce Lee in AToW for Mechwarrior qualification.

[Onisuzume]

Alas, you still have to pay for it if the character is heir to a title. It's just 100 XP less than the standard cost to that title. The lowest "heirable" title is Baronet, which is 500 XP on its own. Thus, you still have to sink 400 XP into it.

Actually, that'd only be the case if the PC is indeed the heir apparent or heir presumptive.
If your character is neither, you don't have to take the title/heir traits.
After all, there's plenty of nobles on our planet which have neither title nor heir traits.
Probably exactly the reason why wealth is one of the possible requirements for the noble lifepath.

[massey]

I built a Duke the last time I looked at playing AToW.  1000 points in title and 1000 points in property.  He's a 4/4 mechwarrior in a light mech, but with like a 2 Str, 3 Body/Will/Cha and a 1 Edge.  Absolutely not gonna set the world on fire with his warrior skills, but he's a friggin' Duke.

House Marik, Noble, Military School, Family Training, Tour of Duty.  The trick with the lifepath is to carefully pick disadvantages that you can live with, and then let the end of character creation top them off for you so you get a ton of extra points.  It allows you to create much more powerful characters than the point-buy system.  I ended up with 3 compulsions and a 700 point enemy.

[Blacksheep]

Bookmarked O0

[DelevanGuardsCO]

This old thread seemed like a really good place to ask this.

If a noble character is an heir to someone with multiple titles. Do you take the heir trait and treat them as holding their parents secondary title? For instance the Duke of Koln married the daughter of the Count of Brass and as a child. Child is heir to Koln and Brass, parents of Duke/Duchess of Koln and at his majority child is Count of Brass. Is that TP for a County or for heir to Duchy?

[Tai Dai Cultist]

This old thread seemed like a really good place to ask this.

If a noble character is an heir to someone with multiple titles. Do you take the heir trait and treat them as holding their parents secondary title? For instance the Duke of Koln married the daughter of the Count of Brass and as a child. Child is heir to Koln and Brass, parents of Duke/Duchess of Koln and at his majority child is Count of Brass. Is that TP for a County or for heir to Duchy?

There's so many "it depends" to that example, it's best answered as "whatever the GM says".

[Nebfer]

Well not being very familiar with the Nobility and Titles, I'm wondering how dose it work for a untitled nobility?  From what I can read, most of the basic titles are also a sort of "rank", so how dose it work if one dose not exactly have a "rank"?

AFAIK Most Titles confer a specific "job" or position in life, IIRC most Dukes in B-tech run planets (not all AFAIK), Counts seem to run large sub areas of a world (I.e. Counties), ect.

How dose it work for the family's of said titled nobility, say the Count has a number of children obviously one is going to be the heir, but what dose this make the rest of the kids? Particularly if one of them is say a player character? 

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Well not being very familiar with the Nobility and Titles, I'm wondering how dose it work for a untitled nobility?  From what I can read, most of the basic titles are also a sort of "rank", so how dose it work if one dose not exactly have a "rank"?

AFAIK Most Titles confer a specific "job" or position in life, IIRC most Dukes in B-tech run planets (not all AFAIK), Counts seem to run large sub areas of a world (I.e. Counties), ect.

How dose it work for the family's of said titled nobility, say the Count has a number of children obviously one is going to be the heir, but what dose this make the rest of the kids? Particularly if one of them is say a player character?

One would call such personages petty scions.  Of which there would be tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands in each successor state.  Since ATOW only tracks titles and not social class, one can easily be of the uppity upper crust (even a relation to a House Lord, if the GM allows) for free, stats wise.. so long as you're not bearing any actual titles (or the heir-apparent of a title).  If you use the life path system, taking Nobility in stage 1 and something suitably highbrow in stage 2 should satisfy any fluffy requirements to be a non-titled noble/petty scion.  (I posted an example some time ago of how one might make something like this)

If you're using point buy, then it's even easier.  Just put in your backstory that you're a petty scion :)