Author Topic: Large laser or Large pulse??  (Read 3855 times)

garhkal

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Large laser or Large pulse??
« on: 25 May 2012, 13:59:25 »
Similar to the above thread on 2 MLs vs 1 MPL..  which do you go with for the large laser versions??
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adamhowe

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Re: Large laser or Large pulse??
« Reply #1 on: 25 May 2012, 14:06:31 »
I personally like the Large Pulse Laser.

Ian Sharpe

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Re: Large laser or Large pulse??
« Reply #2 on: 25 May 2012, 14:12:39 »
LPL in space.  On the ground, it depends on the design in question, but generally I'd take a standard large.

billtfor3

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Re: Large laser or Large pulse??
« Reply #3 on: 25 May 2012, 14:28:47 »
Inner Sphere I choose LL.  Clan I choose LPL.
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Cybra

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Re: Large laser or Large pulse??
« Reply #4 on: 25 May 2012, 14:58:46 »
It depends on what role they are going to fill. For a main weapon, I'd choose the LL, unless the mech is meant to move, then I'd take the LPL. As a backup weapon, I'm more inclined to take the LPL, especially with short minimum ranges. My Marauder MAD-DC II mounts LPLs as backup for the HPPCs.

Fallen_Raven

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Re: Large laser or Large pulse??
« Reply #5 on: 25 May 2012, 15:01:38 »
Standard Large please. I save on heat and tonnage, while gaining range, which seems a rather simple choice to me.
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Thatguybil

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Re: Large laser or Large pulse??
« Reply #6 on: 25 May 2012, 16:07:37 »
Fast jumpers get pulse weapons.
Everything else ER lasers.

Nikas_Zekeval

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Re: Large laser or Large pulse??
« Reply #7 on: 25 May 2012, 16:18:38 »
Fast jumpers get pulse weapons.
Everything else ER lasers.

Being a fast jumper doesn't help so much if you have to crawl into the target's back pocket to get the advantage of your weapons.

The Inner Sphere LPL is only superior to the standard Large Laser at 1-3 hexes, plus hexes 6 and 7.  It is also heavier and a higher heat load than the standard Large.  Comparing it to the PPC which has the same mass and heat profile the LPL is only better at 7 hexes, and ranges 1 to 3.  The PPC in turn can reach out and touch you at nearly twice the range.  There is a reason I consider the LPL on the Manticore 'upgrade' to have ruined the tank.

In space, where range bands are different the LPL is a viable choice over the standard large if you can budget the extra mass and heat for one.  On the ground, it is an automatic downcheck.  Turn to your tech and ask "Can you rip that hunk of junk out of my ride and put in something useful?"

Orin J.

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Re: Large laser or Large pulse??
« Reply #8 on: 25 May 2012, 16:31:12 »
the large pulse is a frightening choice to hide in your rear arc if you can afford it but unless i'm compensating for a large compliment of of guns with minimum ranges or building a design with a mugging profile the vanilla LL is gonna get the nod for me.

really it's a wonderful weapon.
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Sandslice

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Re: Large laser or Large pulse??
« Reply #9 on: 25 May 2012, 17:30:05 »
The mandatory maths:

Range band / LL / LPL

1-3 / 0 / -2
4-5 0 / 0
6-7 +2 / 0
8-10 +2 / +2
11-15 +4 / NA

Like the medium pulse, the large pulse only "shines" in fairly narrow bands where both weapons are at the same range, while having only 2/3 the full range of the standard.  Also, not only is the standard 2 heat lower and 50% longer range, it's also two tons lighter: that's two one-ton items, which could be heat sinks, medium lasers, SPLs, etc.

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wundergoat

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Re: Large laser or Large pulse??
« Reply #10 on: 25 May 2012, 19:19:53 »
The problem with the ISLPL is that it ends up being a bit more of a semi-generalist niche weapon due to its range brackets.  In its optimal ranges, the MPL is superior damage:weight:heat, though the LPL has the advantage of damage concentration.  When range bands start to open up, the LPL can play bracket advantage versus traditional short range and older big guns, but falls versus contemporary ERLLs, ERPPCs, etc.  Therefore, it performs decently in its range, but its nothing game changing like the snubby.  If it had a 4/8/12 range it would be excellent, and I find the derivative X-LPL the best of the X-Pulse series precicely because it can play the bracket game effectively against most weapon loadouts.

The standard LL is a reliable and effective generalist weapon with reasonable fitting costs.  Its not sexy, its not high tech, but it gets the job done.  My vote goes to LL.

monbvol

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Re: Large laser or Large pulse??
« Reply #11 on: 25 May 2012, 19:53:26 »
On the ground I'll edge towards the standard if I can't have the SNPPC or ERLL instead.  In space I'll take a serious look at the LPL.  It really changes that much in terms of performance.
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willydstyle

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Re: Large laser or Large pulse??
« Reply #12 on: 25 May 2012, 20:05:10 »
Being a fast jumper doesn't help so much if you have to crawl into the target's back pocket to get the advantage of your weapons.

The Inner Sphere LPL is only superior to the standard Large Laser at 1-3 hexes, plus hexes 6 and 7.  It is also heavier and a higher heat load than the standard Large.  Comparing it to the PPC which has the same mass and heat profile the LPL is only better at 7 hexes, and ranges 1 to 3.  The PPC in turn can reach out and touch you at nearly twice the range.  There is a reason I consider the LPL on the Manticore 'upgrade' to have ruined the tank.

In space, where range bands are different the LPL is a viable choice over the standard large if you can budget the extra mass and heat for one.  On the ground, it is an automatic downcheck.  Turn to your tech and ask "Can you rip that hunk of junk out of my ride and put in something useful?"

What's good for the Manticore is not necessarily good for the Phoenix Hawk.  The large pulse has a place, and a good one, on fast jumpers that want to knife fight.

martian

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Re: Large laser or Large pulse??
« Reply #13 on: 25 May 2012, 20:34:49 »
  • Large Pulse laser is good when you expect that your fast 'Mech will spend most of the time in the vicinity of enemy (preferably in his rear arc). See Wraith, Lightray, Anvil, Berserker, etc.
  • Another reason why to use LPLs is when you will have worse pilots (such as in case of Gallant).
  • The third possibility is that you expect that from some reason you will get +1 to hit modifier (on +8 heat), such as with TSM-equipped 'Mechs - see OTL-8M Ostsol and similar designs. In this case LPLs +2 bonus compensates for heat.
  • Heavy and assault 'Mechs may be armed with LPLs for protection against fast movers, such as in case of Albatross or Grand Crusader. With some effort they can cover their back with it too. In this particular case you don't need longer reach of standard Large laser (because the enemy backstabber is usually just behind you), but the +2 to-hit bonus.

Kobold

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Re: Large laser or Large pulse??
« Reply #14 on: 25 May 2012, 23:29:38 »
The LPL is excellent on mechs fast enough to get into position where it is usefull.  The OTL-5M (when balanced by BV) and the WVR-7K are excellent LPL carrying mechs.  I also like the GRF-1DS.

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Re: Large laser or Large pulse??
« Reply #15 on: 26 May 2012, 04:50:51 »
For cheese's sake, I've been considering the value of a Wraith equipped with four MXPL, and making up the difference in extra heat sinks.

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Fireangel

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Re: Large laser or Large pulse??
« Reply #16 on: 26 May 2012, 05:37:19 »
The mandatory maths:

Range band / LL / LPL

1-3 / 0 / -2
4-5 0 / 0
6-7 +2 / 0
8-10 +2 / +2
11-15 +4 / NA

Like the medium pulse, the large pulse only "shines" in fairly narrow bands where both weapons are at the same range, while having only 2/3 the full range of the standard.  Also, not only is the standard 2 heat lower and 50% longer range, it's also two tons lighter: that's two one-ton items, which could be heat sinks, medium lasers, SPLs, etc.

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This pretty much says it all for IS versions.

When dealing with clan systems the LPL is king; known as the "magic PPC +2" 'round these parts.

In IS aero units I'll take the LPL over the LL unless tonnage is at a premium.

Nikas_Zekeval

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Re: Large laser or Large pulse??
« Reply #17 on: 26 May 2012, 07:30:25 »
  • Large Pulse laser is good when you expect that your fast 'Mech will spend most of the time in the vicinity of enemy (preferably in his rear arc). See Wraith, Lightray, Anvil, Berserker, etc.

Which requires you to assume you win initiative, to both get the back shot and control the range.  NOT something I want to count on in a fight.

Quote
  • Another reason why to use LPLs is when you will have worse pilots (such as in case of Gallant).
  • The third possibility is that you expect that from some reason you will get +1 to hit modifier (on +8 heat), such as with TSM-equipped 'Mechs - see OTL-8M Ostsol and similar designs. In this case LPLs +2 bonus compensates for heat.
  • Heavy and assault 'Mechs may be armed with LPLs for protection against fast movers, such as in case of Albatross or Grand Crusader. With some effort they can cover their back with it too. In this particular case you don't need longer reach of standard Large laser (because the enemy backstabber is usually just behind you), but the +2 to-hit bonus.

And the bonuses are mostly eaten up by the shorter range of the IS Pulse laser.  Compare to a standard PPC the LPL only gets the advantage at range 7, and once you crawl into the minimum range of the PPC.  Given the 'in your face' nature of the advantage go with a multiple MPLs if you want in close bonuses for offensive or defensive use.  7 tons is way too much for a niche weapon, use the mass to augment your primary armament instead.

Orin J.

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Re: Large laser or Large pulse??
« Reply #18 on: 26 May 2012, 07:41:29 »
Compare to a standard PPC-

Please. we are comparing the LL to the LPL and where each can find advantage. We are not talking about particle projection cannons. It is a great weapon, but it is not the matter of discussion. Let us focus on the matter at hand instead of creating strawmen to bash the pulse laser with.
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Nikas_Zekeval

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Re: Large laser or Large pulse??
« Reply #19 on: 26 May 2012, 07:52:41 »
Please. we are comparing the LL to the LPL and where each can find advantage. We are not talking about particle projection cannons. It is a great weapon, but it is not the matter of discussion. Let us focus on the matter at hand instead of creating strawmen to bash the pulse laser with.

I threw it in because in terms of mass and heat load it is an exact match to the LPL, and other than bulk nearly a straight swap out.  Which IMHO makes it a legitimate alternate investment for a combat unit's weapon.

Fallen_Raven

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Re: Large laser or Large pulse??
« Reply #20 on: 26 May 2012, 08:02:25 »
I threw it in because in terms of mass and heat load it is an exact match to the LPL, and other than bulk nearly a straight swap out.  Which IMHO makes it a legitimate alternate investment for a combat unit's weapon.

Which to me indicates another advantage to the standard Large Laser. It doesn't have as many direct competitiors.
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martian

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Re: Large laser or Large pulse??
« Reply #21 on: 26 May 2012, 08:33:10 »
Which requires you to assume you win initiative, to both get the back shot and control the range.  NOT something I want to count on in a fight.
With Wraith or Lightray you can actually control range quite easily. And even if you lose initiative.

And the bonuses are mostly eaten up by the shorter range of the IS Pulse laser.  Compare to a standard PPC the LPL only gets the advantage at range 7, and once you crawl into the minimum range of the PPC.
The whole point of 'Mechs armed with hatchet or TSM is to go under the minimum range of standard PPC, exactly where LPL is most effective. Have you ever tried OTL-8M Ostsol or NGS-6T Nightsky in your game? You really should ...

Given the 'in your face' nature of the advantage go with a multiple MPLs if you want in close bonuses for offensive or defensive use.  7 tons is way too much for a niche weapon, use the mass to augment your primary armament instead.

This discussion is about Large Laser vs. Large Pulse Laser, not about MPLs or PPCs ...

wundergoat

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Re: Large laser or Large pulse??
« Reply #22 on: 26 May 2012, 09:54:57 »
Performance against weapons contemporary to the LL and LPL are valid in determining which is better, unless we are looking at a vaccum.  Even if those weapons are not valid replacements for the lasers, we still need to consider someone else packing them.

Performance vs the common PPC or other long ranged heavy hitters is important.  Most such guns leave the LPL behind at most ranges for similar weight, so the LPL is at a disadvantage there.  The LPL can get into its short range, but then it competes with more efficient though less accurate and penetrating short range weapons.

LL has similar issues, but weighs less and performs similarly, so I consider it better in general.  I would still always go with a LPL on a wraith though, it functions as a can opener better than the LL in the role, while having damage concentration and better stand off functionality than MLs and MPLs.

Orin J.

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Re: Large laser or Large pulse??
« Reply #23 on: 26 May 2012, 10:04:09 »
Performance against weapons contemporary to the LL and LPL are valid in determining which is better, unless we are looking at a vaccum.

Yeah, we're looking at a vacuum. the discussion is in if you would choose large laser or a large pulse laser, full stop. i know the temptation to drag a thread off-topic is a mighty one, but let's save it for the next "why we need to fix autocannons!*" thread.

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mitchberthelson

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Re: Large laser or Large pulse??
« Reply #24 on: 26 May 2012, 16:22:04 »
This pretty much says it all for IS versions.

When dealing with clan systems the LPL is king; known as the "magic PPC +2" 'round these parts.

In IS aero units I'll take the LPL over the LL unless tonnage is at a premium.

This is why I have an NPC in an RPG game who "inverted" the weaponry on his Anvil, going for two standard LL's and 2 MPL's instead of the other way around. Still got the point blank nastiness for more range and the same damage output, with lighter weight and less heat. The two tons saved went to badly needed armor.

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Re: Large laser or Large pulse??
« Reply #25 on: 26 May 2012, 16:47:48 »
Which to me indicates another advantage to the standard Large Laser. It doesn't have as many direct competitiors.

yeah to me the large has always been a lightweight ppc
lighter, less heat, less damage, less limitations
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LastChanceCav

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Re: Large laser or Large pulse??
« Reply #26 on: 26 May 2012, 19:09:00 »
They each have their place, but I find more places for the LL than the LPL.

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monty

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Re: Large laser or Large pulse??
« Reply #27 on: 27 May 2012, 04:39:52 »
Straight choice between the weapons I would go with the standard LL. Shorter range cancels out the benefit of pulses far too often IMHO & the extra tonnage is too high a price for a tiny damage boost. However there are some designs where I love the LPL. The fast backstabbers like the Wraith are the best example, but close combat designs are another good place for the LPL. The LPL is also a good choice on bracket fire designs with LRM's.

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Re: Large laser or Large pulse??
« Reply #28 on: 27 May 2012, 05:38:53 »
Mostly LL, but the ISLPL has its place in some mechs. As said before, jumpers and assaults as heavy defense weapon.
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monbvol

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Re: Large laser or Large pulse??
« Reply #29 on: 27 May 2012, 07:33:53 »
As a standard general service weapon where I don't know what I'm going to be fighting or what terrain I'm going to be on I do favor the standard Large Laser greatly over the pulse version because it is easier to manipulate range in my favor while having the same net to hit number even for a jumper.  At least on the ground.  Space the range is the same, damage slightly greater, and accuracy is universally better for the pulse so if I have the 7 tons I will reach for it.
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