Author Topic: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank  (Read 62201 times)

Moonsword

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Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« on: 29 May 2012, 16:02:49 »
Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank

Sorry about the delay - I'd forgotten about this over the weekend holiday until I was literally turning out the lights to go to sleep.

The Manticore is one of the oldest vehicles in BattleTech and one of the most popular, with an enduring legacy in and out of character and the distinction of not just making it onto a lot of people's lists of the best Intro hardware in the game but spawning one of the designs that's right there with it.  Beyond that, over seven years ago, this was the very first vehicle covered by Vehicle of the Week, the first article published by the first of the authors to write this column, my fellow moderator JadeHellbringer.  The Manticore was also a vehicle that emerged at a critical time in BattleTech's history, during the bloody transition from the end of the Age of War into the Star League that was marked by the bitter Reunification War, in an age where many of the old standbys we take for granted like the Vedette, the Demolisher, the Scorpion, and the Bulldog were decades or centuries away from being introduced.  Designed by TechniCorps for the Star League's member states, the Manticore proved itself as an infantry support weapon, and through the Star League and the Succession Wars, the design endured, with six manufacturers constructing it in 3039, most prominently Defiance Industries of Hesperus II but also Bulldog Enterprises on Proserpina.  Filling in from later publications such as the newer handbooks and Objective Raids, we can tentatively name the others with at least a little confidence: Quikscell on Ares, Panpour's Jalastar Aerospace, New Earth Trading Company on New Earth, and Majesty Metals and Manufacturing in Dunianshire.  After the Succession Wars, production continued, with every site but NETC and MMM apparently continuing to build them in at least the immediate aftermath of the Jihad based on the Objectives series.  NETC was practically gutted during the fighting to liberate New Earth and while we do know from FM3085 that the Canopian military-industrial complex is largely intact, specific confirmation of the Manticore's continued production hasn't been given.

The classic Manticore is one of the gold standards for heavy tanks, a design that's still brought up in comparison (sometimes favorably) to modern units and one that's still as relevant now as it was back when it was first released.  Those of you who are looking at Reunification War's primitive 'Mech-rich tables, remember, sometimes those 'Mechs got to fight our friend here.  At 60 tons, this is on the small end of the heavy tank continuum, but the 240 Pitban fusion engine gave it a lot of effectiveness in a time when Vedettes and Scorpions were de rigeur, enough that the Manticore survived an age of bitter war and technological decline with a good reputation and solid population size.  With a tracked chassis, that works out to 65 kph for a flank speed, respectable enough.  11 tons of ArcShield Maxi II armor is pretty solid for a tank this size, arranged 42/33/26/42, and is probably a significant relief to anyone used to Bulldogs or, worse, LRM carriers.  The main gun in the turret is a Parti-Kill Heavy Cannon PPC, supplemented by two missile racks, a FarFire LRM 10 and a SureShot Mk VI SRM 6, with both launchers only having a single ton of ammunition.  The front has an OMI HighBurn medium laser.  You need heat sinks, which isn't great, but it does cover the PPC's range minimum acceptably.  The lack of anti-infantry capabilities is a bit of a loss under Total Warfare but then, you've got Bulldogs, Scorpions, Goblins, and various other cheaper units you can attach to do that.  Or Infernos if you're feeling mean.  (Or Capellan, but I repeat myself.)  TechniCorp's policies regarding end-user modifications, a policy manufacturers like Defiant Industries continued, meant no major variants emerged until after the Clan Invasion.

The 3055 variant covered in TRO3058U is one of those 3050s variants that makes you wonder if the engineers quite understood what they were doing when they sat down at the CAD station.  You'll know it when you see it but I'll start with one of the good points, replacing the tank's armor with ten tons of  Durallex Superferro-fibrous arranged 43/34/26/42, actually marginally increasing total protection.  The PPC was replaced by a Thunderbolt-12 large pulse laser.  I've had some success with the LPL on the Grand Titan and the Anvil, but those are 'Mechs used to bully and harass smaller or slower 'Mechs, not tanks that relied on their PPC for a large chunk of their effectiveness, and I'm not sold on the change here.  I'm not alone in that, either - Hellbie was even less impressed than I was, for instance - but I'll note that if you're in a position where you've got to get into close quarters, this variant is a little better, and you can also use it to blunt fast-moving lights which typically don't enjoy a 9 point hit.  The rest of the changes are a little less oddball.  The laser was removed for a Streak SRM 2 rack, freeing up tonnage for additional changes.  That one I'm pretty inclined to shrug off - the reduced tonnage is noticeable and useful, the spread of hits vs. the increased damage can be argued either way, and the single ton of ammo won't make any noticeable difference if it cooks off considering how many other missiles are already stuffed in the chassis.  Finally, Artemis IV was added to the existing SRM and LRM launchers.  Whether any of the other manufacturers converted to this variant and when is one of those little tidbits no one's bothered to release.

During the Civil War, two new variants turned up, both of them incorporating C3 technology.  The equipment on there suggests that they're Kuritan in origin but remember, check the MUL for current availability.  Anyway.  The Master variant is slightly more heavily armored (44/38/26/42) but retained the PPC.  The laser was swapped for a Streak 2 launcher and you've got Artemis on the LRM 10.  The SRM rack was dropped for a C3 master computer, which also adds TAG (pro tip: if you care enough to run some smart aleck harassing your master off, you care enough to do it with a half-dozen homing Arrows).  The slave variant has, well, just a C3 slave, but it also has a Streak SRM 4 rack to occupy those four tons as well as armor as heavy as the 3055 model's - 43/34/26/42.  Personally, I'd have gone ahead and pulled the Streak 2, consolidated on a Streak 6, and put a machine gun, TAG, or something in the ton saved by not hauling two separate tons of Streak ammo, but that's personal preference.  Overall, it's a solid enough performer, and tying it into a C3 network is nice.

The LB-X model is a serviceable enough platform - it's hard to go wrong with an LB 10-X - but lacks a little of the punch at long range.  Of course, it doesn't lose any of it at short range and there's always the LRM carrier for your distance fire needs, so an LB 10-X and Streak SRM 6 in the turret and a forward-fixed MPL are pretty respectable.  The armor is the same 43/34/26/42 mix.  Three tons of LB 10-X ammo and a ton of Streaks give you quite acceptable combat endurance.

The Jihad era RAC variant - known to be built by Jalastar Aerospace from a mention in the Myrmidon fluff in TRO Prototypes - has that same armor level and is apparently the end stage of someone or other's desperate desire to build a close fighting Manticore.  Towards that end, the weapons load is a class 5 rotary autocannon (which is better than the alternative) and an SRM 6 with Artemis in the turret, with two ERMLs in the forward mount.  Only two tons of RAC ammo is a little limited but the targeting computer should keep it from being wasted too much.

The final variant is also from the Jihad.  Exactly who's manufacturing them hasn't been specified at this point but whoever the builder might be, they weren't messing around when they designed it.  A 240-rated light fusion engine is a little costly but the tonnage is used very well in my opinion.  The armor is the same as many of the other modern Manticores - 43/34/26/42.  What makes this one so special is the armament.  The AMS is useful - it can blunt LRMs or, more importantly, SRMs - but the heavy particle cannon used as the main gun marks the first Manticore to mount a headcapper.  It's also the second variant with a targeting computer.  Yep, that's right, an HPPC linked to a targeting computer.  Remember how I said that tonnage was used well?  This is what I was talking about.  They still had to remove the traditional forward weapon mount and pare the missiles down to a single launcher.  Since it's an MML 7, that's not so bad - you've actually gained a missile up close and farther out, the loss of LRM damage is more than offset by the increased accuracy and power of the big gun.  Two tons of ammunition give you enough to carry the basic ammo types but unless you want to sacrifice one or the other, you won't be carrying any special munitions.

Probably the weirdest model to date is “The Ballista”, a unique example from XTRO: Gladiators.  Powered by an XLFE with a supercharger, it's faster than most but also more expensive than any other Manticore variant.  It's unambiguously intended as a C3 sniper.  The only weapons on here are an HVAC/5 and an extended LRM 10, each with two tons of ammo and both on the turret.  A C3 slave system lets you feed off of targeting data from other units.  Perhaps recognizing the inherent dangers of a vehicle where the main gun has a 1 in 36 chance of exploding any time you pull the trigger (haven't these people ever heard of an LGR?) and the odds of a supercharger mishap, someone also stuck a crew escape pod on here.  Fortunately, the armor is tougher at 9.5 tons of heavy ferro-fibrous arranged 50/38/30/42 and there's even CASE!  You'll need it if anyone ever gets an idea where you are and sends a couple of lights out to deal with you.  Or just decides to paste your location with some artillery.  (Hint: Don't sit still and let them.)  Looking at this design, I'm not surprised no one picked it up for refinement, but then, I'm not a fan of HVACs to begin with.

Operating Manticores depends a bit on the variant.  The HPPC, C3, and stock variants can all do a bit of in-fighting if they need to but they really benefit from standing off and pounding someone as they close, preferably in groups.  The RAC model is more of a mid-range bruiser while the 3055 LPL variant needs to charge straight into the fire, using its LPL and SRMs to carry the day while the LRMs are used to cover your advance.  One thing you might want to give a bit of thought to is what else you're fielding.  These days, Manticores are pretty vulnerable to infantry unless they're sacrificing their SRM load to carry frag or Inferno rounds (assuming they can - the C3 models can't), so something reasonably proficient in that sort of work isn't a bad idea.  Strikers with a ton of Infernos work.  So will Bulldogs or Tigers.  They're fast enough to keep pace with the Manticores, which can screen them until the other tanks are in a position to engage at medium to short range for their own weapons.  Goblins don't have the same firepower but they can also act in that role.  So can light SRM carriers.

Killing Manticores is a little more easily said than done.  They're not cast-iron ferro-fibrous bricks the way, say, the AC/10 Alacorn is, but they're still pretty comfortably armored, especially against Spheroid opponents.  Bring weapons to disable them (the LB 10-X, for instance) and weapons to pound through the armor and kill them in a reasonably expedient manner.  Other than that, try to pay attention to which variant(s) you're dealing with and respond accordingly.  The stock, C3, “Ballista”, and HPPC models don't really want to fight you point blank, especially the latter.  (Keep in mind that getting point blank with an unjammed C3 unit carries its own risks, of course.)  That being the case, get right in the phone booth, preferably out of the front arc.  “The Ballista” has problems even engaging a target at that range and its ELRMs are the next best thing to useless.  But if you're dealing with the RAC or LPL models, that's the last thing you want to do.  Stand off, preferably out of the reach of their main guns entirely (or at least far enough back the RAC fire rate is kept low to avoid jamming), and pound them to scrap.

References: The Master Unit List is somewhere I recommend examining if you're planning to field some of these fine, fine machines.  There's a few examples over at CamoSpecs you may want to take a look at, too.
« Last Edit: 29 May 2012, 16:14:51 by Moonsword »

Weirdo

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #1 on: 29 May 2012, 16:12:39 »
So wait, that one Manticore has a C3M and a TAG? Screw the data links, this thing just became one of my favorite linebreakers, because nobody but NOBODY will keep their formation intact if they see a platoon of double-TAG MBTs charging at them... >:D

Also, H-PPC Manty. Win. That is all.
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Moonsword

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #2 on: 29 May 2012, 16:13:43 »
No.  It has C3M.  C3Ms have TAG by default.  There's not another TAG on there.

I figured you'd like the idea of homing Arrows as... encouragement not to annoy C3 masters, though.
« Last Edit: 29 May 2012, 16:15:33 by Moonsword »

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #3 on: 29 May 2012, 16:18:37 »
Yeah, that's always a good idea.

Kinda sad, the wording made me think it had the Master and the TAG in addition. Could still be a handy thing to remember though, as few players in my area remember the TAG ability. I wonder how mean it'd be to run a C3 Masters of the Universe force...
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Moonsword

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #4 on: 29 May 2012, 16:21:36 »
Since people normally don't want to move C3 masters into proximity with other units, the TAG isn't necessary something there's a lot of use for.  Until, of course, you remember that other people probably want to move into proximity with you.  Plus there's the fact that TAG can benefit from C3 data, last time I checked.  I'm sure you wouldn't be planning to take advantage of that, would you?

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #5 on: 29 May 2012, 16:28:14 »
Mayyybe...

But then again, taking them just for the TAG usually gives me a solid heavy or assault that's relatively cheap by BV...
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #6 on: 29 May 2012, 18:46:25 »
I'll know they let Weirdo design a unit the first time I see an artillery vehicle with C3

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #7 on: 29 May 2012, 18:57:55 »
The NWH book containing the Schiltron was either the third or fourth Battletech product I ever purchased.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #8 on: 29 May 2012, 19:01:18 »
Based on the fluff the LPL, C3 pair, and LB-10X all share the same basic chassis, and really the other two are variants of the original, ruined, LPL upgrade model.  The C3 put the PPC back in, and either downgrade the turret SRM-6 w/Artemis to a SSRM-4 for the Slave, or remove it entirely for the C3 Master.  Always good, but you'll really need a few spotters mixed in, light ones like the Maxim C3 variant for those on a budget, or Manteuffels for those without one.  Nice, but IIRC it is built in a plant in Kurtian space.

I do find myself warming to the LB-10X model of late.  It is a different paradigm, unabashed mid to close range combatant instead of all range fighter with a preference for standing off.  The damage keeps going up as you close, and facing another tank that LB-10X stands a good chance of laming the opposition letting it dictate what range the fight happens at. OTOH it has very deep ammo bins, allowing you to bring enough to fight the battle wholly with slug or cluster, and still carry a bin of the other just in case.  I'd think it's shine in a combine arms role, backing up heavy hitters with loads of crit seeking and ADA work on the side.  Or as the heavy metal backstop to more lightly armored forces to fall back behind when pressed.  As a MBT to back up a mech formation ISTM that it is a one stop for most of your armor support needs, suplement, crit seeker, ADA, and robust enough to sweep up the small fry (less and PBI, alas).  NETC sourcing means it was probably sold throughout the Chaos March, so should be relatively easy to pick one (or a dozen) up, at least till the Blakest have their hissy fit.

Not totally sold on the LFE for the HPPC variant.  That is only four more tons to play with, at the cost of about doubling the price of the tank.  That four tons gets you the TC and a ton of ammo, and you can get the later back by going up to Heavy FF.

The LPL model?  Ruined a good tank.  I'd take the classic over it, and probably smack the new one around with it.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #9 on: 29 May 2012, 19:01:38 »
Mayyybe...

But then again, taking them just for the TAG usually gives me a solid heavy or assault that's relatively cheap by BV...

 with some arrow toting units :D they will never expect your vehicle heavy forces to win, but you will, oh yes u will  >:D

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #10 on: 29 May 2012, 19:04:59 »
They will never expect my vee-heavy forces to win...? ??? You need to talk to my gaming group. They'll tell you that my vee-heavy forces are the most dangerous ones. I get into trouble when I bring too many 'mechs to my fights. For me, vehicles and infantry are for killing things, 'mechs are thrown in for flavor.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #11 on: 29 May 2012, 20:09:25 »
Hard to go wrong with the Manticore in my experience.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #12 on: 29 May 2012, 20:12:42 »
They will never expect my vee-heavy forces to win...? ??? You need to talk to my gaming group. They'll tell you that my vee-heavy forces are the most dangerous ones. I get into trouble when I bring too many 'mechs to my fights. For me, vehicles and infantry are for killing things, 'mechs are thrown in for flavor.

Everyone knows the fastest way to break eggs kill a ground force is during re-entry when they're in those nice, convenient baskets dropships  O:-)

Either that, or nerve gas in the barracks.
« Last Edit: 29 May 2012, 20:14:48 by chanman »

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #13 on: 29 May 2012, 20:41:59 »
Everyone knows the fastest way to break eggs kill a ground force is during re-entry when they're in those nice, convenient baskets dropships  O:-)

Either that, or nerve gas in the barracks.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #14 on: 29 May 2012, 21:21:14 »
I'll know they let Weirdo design a unit the first time I see an artillery vehicle with C3

There's a Thor (c3i) that drops the Medium lasers and the turret for c3i (But keeps the 0 ton turret and its armor). What exactly the Thor is supposed to do with that c3i link no one really knows. The only use for it is to provide targeting data if something comes after it. A novel idea, but probably not worth the massive increase in BV.

What if we've been looking at the 3055/LPL version all wrong? What if it wasn't meant as a replacement, but the designers looked at it as a companion, since they figured they weren't getting ride of the original Manticore anytime soon since it had been in production in so many places for so long? What if they looked at it as a companion to the Manticore, designed to protect the original against units that would rush in underneath their PPC and LRMs? A lance consisting of 2 original Manticores and 2 LPL Manticores could cover each other pretty well. If stay at range, the LRMs and PPCs hit you. If you try to rush in, the LPLs are just more accurate as they get in closer.

As a side note, which way does the TAG face if you put the c3 master in the body? I assume the front, but I can't find anything that says specifically.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #15 on: 30 May 2012, 01:59:39 »
Why are all the good/popular/well known mid-weight tanks 60-tons?

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #16 on: 30 May 2012, 06:57:22 »
Why are all the good/popular/well known mid-weight tanks 60-tons?

That is the upper end of the practical 4/6 movement, at least without resorting to an XL fusion engine.   That leaves it with enough mass to have decent weapons and armor, while still leaving even fusion powered models costing (for campaigns that have you buy replacements/reinforcements) about as much as a light Mech.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #17 on: 30 May 2012, 12:21:23 »
Why are all the good/popular/well known mid-weight tanks 60-tons?

Well, i presume that you include 65t Patton/Rommel in that? Still, there is Myrmidon witch i do consider as "mid-weight" so not all of them are 60 tonners.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #18 on: 30 May 2012, 12:28:26 »
The non-upgrade Manticore is my favorite tank. I love that sucker.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #19 on: 30 May 2012, 17:33:05 »
The Manticore falls into a small number of units where it's still quite worthy of inclusion even in the most cutting-edge Inner Sphere forces- as it's 3025-tech era design.

There's just something satisfying about watching a Clan 'Mech fall apart under a hail of old-fashioned PPC and LRMs sometimes...especially from a tank.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #20 on: 30 May 2012, 18:04:12 »
What if we've been looking at the 3055/LPL version all wrong? What if it wasn't meant as a replacement, but the designers looked at it as a companion, since they figured they weren't getting ride of the original Manticore anytime soon since it had been in production in so many places for so long? What if they looked at it as a companion to the Manticore, designed to protect the original against units that would rush in underneath their PPC and LRMs? A lance consisting of 2 original Manticores and 2 LPL Manticores could cover each other pretty well. If stay at range, the LRMs and PPCs hit you. If you try to rush in, the LPLs are just more accurate as they get in closer.

That would work, although my first thought was infantry support in urban combat.  The LPL will be very effective against light 'Mechs trying to sweep for infantry and the LRM allows you to provide indirect support for nearby allies.  The infantry will cover the tank's weakness against hostile infantry as the tank holds off larger opponents while the infantry move in for the kill.


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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #21 on: 30 May 2012, 18:31:40 »
I'm still looking forward to taking the HPPC Manty for a spin. Heavy PPC with a targeting computer? Yes please.


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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #22 on: 30 May 2012, 20:14:07 »
Since people normally don't want to move C3 masters into proximity with other units, the TAG isn't necessary something there's a lot of use for.  Until, of course, you remember that other people probably want to move into proximity with you.  Plus there's the fact that TAG can benefit from C3 data, last time I checked.  I'm sure you wouldn't be planning to take advantage of that, would you?

Its all fun & games till an Atlas uses C3 to spot at close range & then TAGs its target from 15 hexes out only to rain down its own Semi-Guided LRMs on said target.

At that point the fun & games are over and we shout LETS GET READY TO RUMBLE !!!

(PS.  Yes, I watched a teammate do this a couple months ago)  (well the tagging, not the yelling)
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #23 on: 30 May 2012, 21:58:03 »
When I think "tank" I think "Manticore."  A real work of art, even in the era of fancy-schmancy tech.

Terrion

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #24 on: 31 May 2012, 01:25:18 »
That would work, although my first thought was infantry support in urban combat.  The LPL will be very effective against light 'Mechs trying to sweep for infantry and the LRM allows you to provide indirect support for nearby allies.  The infantry will cover the tank's weakness against hostile infantry as the tank holds off larger opponents while the infantry move in for the kill.

You know, it would have made much more sense as an FWL design. I'm inclined to guess that the engineers felt like they needed to make some sort of major change to justify retooling the factory for it, and didn't have approval for an engine swap. Considering how good the original is, change for the sake of change was almost certain to end badly. At leat it seems to have been corrected quickly, and all the other designs are near unimprovable (apart from using ferro, but that's true of pretty much every vehicle). I am a bit surprised there's no ER PPC variant though.

SCC

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #25 on: 31 May 2012, 02:55:22 »
Well, i presume that you include 65t Patton/Rommel in that? Still, there is Myrmidon witch i do consider as "mid-weight" so not all of them are 60 tonners.
Yes, I knew the Patton was over the 50-ton limit by a little bit, just slipped my mind by how much

Ian Sharpe

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #26 on: 31 May 2012, 03:01:51 »
One of the best all rounders in the game.  Direct fire, IDF, LRM support, crit-seeking or infantry killing depending on the SRM ammo.  I just wish it had two tons of SRM ammo and MGs over the ML but its hardly a deal breaker.  Haven't used the newer models and doubt I will anytime soon.

Hellraiser

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #27 on: 01 June 2012, 00:04:04 »
I posted a Jihad era Repair Bay refit a while back.

Plasma + 2 ammo
3x MML5 + 3 ammo
Vee-Flamer + 1 ammo
Switch to HFFA


Its one of the nastiest conventional unit killers I've ever created.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Matti

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #28 on: 01 June 2012, 09:50:38 »
Vee-Flamer + 1 ammo
Vehicle Flamer in fusion powered tank!!? Does alternative require Heat Sinks?
You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights errant, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

Moonsword

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #29 on: 01 June 2012, 11:25:19 »
Vehicle Flamer in fusion powered tank!!? Does alternative require Heat Sinks?

Yes.  Plasma rifles, like PPCs, eat up all ten heat sinks by themselves.