Author Topic: Vehicle of the Week: Monitor Naval Vessel  (Read 9570 times)

Moonsword

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Vehicle of the Week: Monitor Naval Vessel
« on: 25 June 2012, 18:17:46 »
Vehicle of the Week: Monitor Naval Vessel

The Monitor Naval Vessel is the brainchild of entrepreneur Robert Habeas, who observed that while there were a great many blue water patrol vessels, the few units available for riverine operations were generally converted civilian patrol boats.  Since riverine and littoral environments are precisely the sort of place you frequently need to patrol, especially in fighting guerillas, that's a bit of a problem.  Habeas didn't have the money to ship and assemble the units themselves, so he hit on a different approach with his new Nav Hull venture: shipping them kits where they can supply their own hulls and engines.  While that's not as simple as it sounds (combat vehicle engines and internal structures are somewhat different in performance terms from support vehicle manufacturing), it's not a huge problem for the governments that can afford to invest in true combat vehicles, especially ones as heavily armed as the Monitor, for doing that sort of job.  Built on New Samarkand, the kits have been shipped all around the Periphery and Inner Sphere, and crews generally find duty boring.  Most worlds simply don't have threats on that level all that often, meaning that Monitors tend to keep the lid on quite nicely.

The primary (and only detailed) Monitor variation is described in TRO3039.  At 75 tons, it's right on the edge of the top end of the heavy vehicle category, with a 195 ICE of various brands providing the motive power to sustain a 54 kph top speed.  Not great but adequate in close quarters like the Monitor is intended to operate in.  The armor plating comes to eight tons arranged 22/22/22/40.  If you're wondering why the turret is so heavily armored, that's because it came from the original design that way.  That's right, original design. Specifically, the Demolisher.  Nav Hull just navalized the design and stuck it on, twin 185mm ChemJet class 20s and all.  You only have three tons of ammunition, though, so you need to pick your shots, but anyone trifling a Monitor at short range won't live to regret it.  Each side and the rear has a Harvester 2k SRM 2 sharing a common single ton of ammunition while there's 1.5 tons of infantry bay for a squad of jump infantry.  Two things are probably missing to the conventional naval design in this size range, but when you remember what the Monitor is supposed to be doing, it all makes sense.  A hydrofoil would be vastly faster, while you'd think someone might remember the torpedoes, right?  Well, let's go back to where the Monitor's primary operating zones are.  They might be useful in a littoral zone, but in a lot of riverine environments, the increased draft of a hydrofoil can be a serious headache.  Not so much in game terms, sure, but in the universe, it increases the number of places a Monitor can get into, especially in the tight, constrained terrain where those autocannons are going to be such a horror.  Those same situations tend to keep torpedoes to a minimum - submarines can theoretically operate in surprisingly shallow depths but doing it has a nasty tendency to run aground.

Usually, I'd start laying out the variants here, but since they're not in RS3039 Unabridged due to production difficulties, that's a little harder than usual.  We have some broad thumbnail sketches.  You either get faster, losing an AC/20, although where the other ton went is one of those little details no one mentions.  (I somehow doubt gthat it went into upgrading to a Gauss rifle in the Succession Wars, but you could fit a Thumper into the space if you need a riverine artillery boat.)  The other variants go the opposite direction, slowing down to mount an intriguing sounding three lighter autocannons or more armor.  I'm not sure I'd go that way personally - losing all that speed is going to make you a sitting duck for the other popular denizens of the river world, hovercraft - but it's an option, definitely.

Monitors are best kept to the watery equivalent of the same roles Demolishers operate in: Tight quarters or as the guard component of a larger force.  Unfortunately, that last part runs afoul of the limited number of surface vessels slow enough that a Monitor can keep up.  On the rivers, though, they can be used to deny a waterway to someone, cruising along it and daring an opponent to react.  In deeper waters, a few Sea Skimmers of whatever type or various hovers can be added, allowing them to either drive opponents toward the Monitor, or hide somewhere while opponents trying to evade the Monitor blunder right into a fast reaction unit.  It can also serve as an escort to river barges.

If you can, attack a Monitor from below.  They're quite literally defenseless against torpedo strikes.  If you can't, focus fire and try to punch the armor out from outside its reach.  AC/20s are AC/20s, whatever you might be riding in, and you don't want to deal with that kind of firepower if you don't have to.  Beyond that, it's another vehicle.  Crit-seekers to cripple it if you get the opportunity, then pound it down with sustained fire.

References: The Master Unit List only has the original variant up since we're still lacking sheets for the others, but we do have a miniature in the colors of the merc unit Kraken Unleashed.

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Monitor Naval Vessel
« Reply #1 on: 25 June 2012, 18:46:19 »
Always had a soft spot in my heart for the thing.  It's the quintessential riverine, backing up whatever you use for smaller patrol boats with the firepower to really screw up someone's day.  One metagaming thing to consider with these - nearly every BT map with a river in it cuts right down the middle, which means that your AC20 Bubble O Doom is going to pretty much always be well placed; you can use this effect to make a sort of "steel curtain" either to evacuate forces or pin an opponent and block them in from crossing the river while your land-capable forces can swing around and flank them.  This does assume that your opponent doesn't simply turn to face the mobile threat, and thus allow the monitors on their flank, but anyone deliberately allowing themselves to be flanked by mass AC20 fire will be made very thankful by the Lord for what they are about to recieve.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Monitor Naval Vessel
« Reply #2 on: 25 June 2012, 20:06:20 »
I've seen a trio of Monitors used alongside a handful of J-Edgars on the river delta map.  Combined with a light battlemech lance they wrecked a couple of lances of Advanced IS heavies and assaults.  When battlemechs are forced into wading through trees and rivers, the monitors 3/5 profile suddenly doesn't look so slow...   ;)

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Monitor Naval Vessel
« Reply #3 on: 25 June 2012, 20:37:54 »
I've always been Naval fan, Monitor has soft place in my heart.  I wish they had made more variants.  Frankly, you'd expect that from a type of ship that built on a kit to-build format.   I wondered if having a large sway of SRM Lauchers, or a couple Large LRMs mounted in the Turret would make this more effective.  Considering how the rules tend turn out badly for water craft with hull-checks happening everytime your hit, i'd want keep this puppy far and away from fighting if i could.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Monitor Naval Vessel
« Reply #4 on: 25 June 2012, 21:01:09 »
looking at some of the demolisher variants, post3050 you could have a turret off a Demolisher-ArrowIV as a straight up swap. which would make the Monitor a really nasty customer to deal with.
you could probably also use the Demolisher-MRM turret as well.
the Demolisher-gauss however would probably need a modification to the base Monitor chassis.

from the starting point of a basic succession wars era Monitor kit though, my first instinct would be to pull one or more of the SRM2's for some machine guns and half a ton of ammo. this would let you do the Riverene policing job a bit easier.

an alternative, and better for the deepwater versions, would be to swap out the SRM2's for SRT's, letting them do some anti-sub work.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Monitor Naval Vessel
« Reply #5 on: 25 June 2012, 22:11:39 »
Personally I'd love to see a Long Tom Cannon on one. Imagine the havoc that could start...
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Monitor Naval Vessel
« Reply #6 on: 26 June 2012, 00:21:48 »
As ANS said there's not much room for these to maneuver so a low speed doesn't matter (you can't really go anywhere)
As for not being a hydrofoil, they're basically navel hovercraft and given the normal lack of maneuver room you're likely to get complains of cheese (doubling back to spend more MP's and so forth)
Lack of variants and data on said? Last time I checked CGL didn't have navel templates so they can't really make them
If you want to make your own variants check with your GM the how being in water all the time effects heat, they may get bonuses, indirect fire weapons may also be good (think lowered river)

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Monitor Naval Vessel
« Reply #7 on: 26 June 2012, 07:23:27 »
Dave, move your design specs to the design spec board.

But that's got nice reach there.

Hmm, artillery cannons when they become available?

'Course, using a Monitor or two as backstop for a wing of harassing hovers would make for interesting coastal operation. First the hovers slash at someone until said someone sinks or starts following. And then the Hovers pull them in front of Monitors.

Wonder, how many Monitors would be needed to chew through a Wyrm?
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Monitor Naval Vessel
« Reply #8 on: 26 June 2012, 09:06:24 »
To me, an ideal coastal patrol squadron would consist of two or three Monitors, an equal number of Sea Skimmers(Silverfins will do in a pinch), and a Mauna Kea. Monitors provide the heavy punch, the Mauna Kea provides ranged fire support and command, while the Sea Skimmers are flankers, and spotters for IDF from the Mauna Kea when needed.

[Edit]Hey, does this count as a WSotW? :)
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Monitor Naval Vessel
« Reply #9 on: 26 June 2012, 09:26:03 »
Personally I'd love to see a Long Tom Cannon on one. Imagine the havoc that could start...

Or... an Arrow IV variant.  They'd be like Tomahawk Cruise Missiles.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Monitor Naval Vessel
« Reply #10 on: 26 June 2012, 10:36:59 »
The Monitor is a great unit for use in very limited environments. If the battlefield is long and narrow with a river down the middle, the Monitor has a reasonable power projection capability, since the "bubble 'o doom" will neatly cover a mapsheet.... BUT as the battlefield size increases, the Monitor shows its weaknesses; it is slow and short-ranged. You can extend your presence in the river by adding more (it sucks to be 3/5 when you need to cross two lengthwise mapsheets in a hurry), but LL-equipped units can stay at 10 hexes and snipe away with impunity... which only gets worse with longer-ranged weapons.

In actual naval engagements, they are definitely at a disadvantage against anything that outranges them, since many canon naval units are faster. The prime problem is its construction as a combat (not a support) vehicle, which (at higher "medium" tonnages) allows for faster speeds with lighter engines.

Against units like the Sea Skimmer it is an absolute killer, but only because the Sea Skimmer's weapons are the same range (or less) than the AC/20; swap the SRM-4 for an LRM-5 and the Sea Skimmers will completely dominate the battle.

Variants?

While the Arrow IV barge has been mentioned, its relatively short range and limited ammunition capability seriously hinder its usefulness. A long Tom is certainly a force to be reckoned with, but straight-swapping the two AC/20's for a Long Tom leaves just one ton for ammo, requiring the sacrifice of more systems to have a useful ammo capacity.

Thumper artillery is a definitely viable option; swapping one AC/20 for a Thumper and the other for a pair of AC/2's or LB2-X's (for anti-air protection) leaves enough ammo to be useful in the long term and have enough range that it need not fear ground based forces at all.

The SRM-2 launchers are another issue; when first published, there were no rules for torpedoes. If the design is intended to be used brown-water-only, then the SRM-2's are fine, but if the Monitor is intended for use in deeper waters, where attacks by fully submerged 'mechs or enemy naval units are a possibility, then torpedoes are a far better option; preferably LRT's since NOTHING outranges those underwater.


What else? Well, the fluff has built-in variant ideas: Nav Hulls, Inc. does not provide the hull or the engine, just the components to be assembled on-site on an appropriately compatible hull. This means that provided the relevant parts match, any hull shape and/or engine can be used.

Why is this relevant?

A 99-ton hydrofoil with a (one-ton) 25-ICE has a 5/8 MP profile. Accounting 2.5 extra tons for structure and 10 tons for the lift equipment, that still leaves 11.5 tons for other equipment, weapons or armour to kick around.

Yes, a 5/8 Monitor with 11.5 extra tons of stuff.

Granted, it's an extreme example, but it can be done, which is the point.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Monitor Naval Vessel
« Reply #11 on: 26 June 2012, 23:00:41 »
[Edit]Hey, does this count as a WSotW? :)
Sorry no, the Monitor's a Warship, not WarShip, no camel case, but WsotW or WotW would be accurate

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Monitor Naval Vessel
« Reply #12 on: 26 June 2012, 23:02:35 »
Sorry no, the Monitor's a Warship, not WarShip, no camel case, but WsotW or WotW would be accurate
...so I still need to write one, then?
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Monitor Naval Vessel
« Reply #13 on: 27 June 2012, 00:32:34 »
I love the Monitor, any map with a river or ocean and I'm putting at least one down, and usually with a few Sea Skimmers for backup. It creates a zone which opponents don't dare enter and is a pain for anything short of an assault to deal with. Once had one destroy a Battlemaster when it dared to challenge it, course it was a case of crits and engine damage, but still. What I really love to use is the jump infantry it can carry. It just adds insult to injury especially if there used as spotters to bring in the LRM fire.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Monitor Naval Vessel
« Reply #14 on: 27 June 2012, 02:01:47 »
If they made an Arrow IV Monitor, I'd put Crocketts on it. No why. Just on principle.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Monitor Naval Vessel
« Reply #15 on: 27 June 2012, 02:17:19 »
In our games, the Monitor-class has been a time-honored staple of the "brown water" arm of any naval force. They are great defensive units along rivers, and on smaller lakes, in major campaigns. And they are a powerful asset in any counterinsurgency efforts by a player team.

Monitors are notoriously easy to hide in swampland and jungle river areas, which makes them a pain in the ass depending on the situation. This is especially true of militia boats, whose personnel know the turf like the back of their hands. Flushing out these floating 'Mech killers is a dirty job, but somebody has to do it. Just expect some nasty ambushes and brutal firefights. It ain't pretty. I'd rather hunt Demolishers and Devastators in a crowded industrial district. It's less painful.

The original floating "demolition gun" is still the most common, found in most planetary militias in our campaigning. But we do have a merc-specific, home brew field refit involving swapping the Chemjets with LB-20X autocannons. These things are hell on insurgent fighters on foot and so-called "technicals". But they really are not that big of an advantage over the older guns against defeated militia/frontline forces, who have "gone guerrilla", and who have access to heavier equipment.

"Frontline" Monitors in our playgroup, attached to special naval units, have been modernized for greater endurance and survivability. A 195 SFE allows for an extra ton and a half of armor, CASE, and two extra tons of autocannon ammo in the magazine. Most still sport the time-tested and battle proven 185mm Chemjet Guns. Very few "national" Monitors have been updated to the LB 20X AC.

The Harvester short range missile racks remain on all of the Monitors we play. They play a part in offering defensive coverage on the other arcs. And offensively, they allow conservation of the AC ammo by dealing with units easily critted and the "light work". The on-board marine/militia jump troops are just a bonus, offering a bit of on-board security from boarders (swarm attack) and a quick recon asset.

Overall, this classic unit is a nice package.

Just my two cents worth.
« Last Edit: 27 June 2012, 02:19:07 by oldfart3025 »
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Monitor Naval Vessel
« Reply #16 on: 27 June 2012, 04:37:00 »
LB20-equipped Monitors become nasty even if you ignore the cluster rounds - that eighteen-hex bubble-o-doom suddenly becomes 24; add in the fact it can hide behind a level 1 hill by a river and it's an even more evil ambusher than before.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Monitor Naval Vessel
« Reply #17 on: 27 June 2012, 11:44:41 »
Also with LB-20Xs installed, it becomes a floating circle of death to anything that thinks Air is cool way to get around.  ;D

oldfart3025

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Monitor Naval Vessel
« Reply #18 on: 05 July 2012, 09:53:50 »
LB20-equipped Monitors become nasty even if you ignore the cluster rounds - that eighteen-hex bubble-o-doom suddenly becomes 24; add in the fact it can hide behind a level 1 hill by a river and it's an even more evil ambusher than before.

True. But considering the terrain of our home-made river, river delta, and swamp maps; most engagement ranges involving the Monitor tend to be short. Short enough that the old 185mm ChemJets are considered sufficient for the job. So, we never bothered with using LB 20X upgrades on a larger scale than we already have been. The only reason we bother with it at all is the flexibility the cluster guns offer when engaging non-Battlemech forces.

But you do make a valid point. Capability, like anything else, falls under the "better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it" clause. That argument can be applied to mounting the longer ranged LB-X on the Monitor.   



Also with LB-20Xs installed, it becomes a floating circle of death to anything that thinks Air is cool way to get around.  ;D


True. Especially in low level air defense. But we prefer that our Monitors are not spotted by hostile aircraft. Especially fighters. And when the fun starts, use any overhead cover to make attacks more difficult (evasion) and low level attacks suicidal (the Monitor's buddies are on the scene, can't forget about them). Engaging fighters isn't typical for our Monitors.

Once again, the LB-X falls under the "better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it" clause. So far, there have been only a few instances where the Monitor-class has been forced to engage "bandits" flying overhead with bad intentions, on our mapsheets. So, it does happen. So, your point is a valid one.
« Last Edit: 05 July 2012, 09:55:31 by oldfart3025 »
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Monitor Naval Vessel
« Reply #19 on: 05 July 2012, 11:34:27 »
True. But considering the terrain of our home-made river, river delta, and swamp maps; most engagement ranges involving the Monitor tend to be short. Short enough that the old 185mm ChemJets are considered sufficient for the job
They tend to be short, yeah, but an LB-20 at range 4, 7, or 8 is going to be a lot more accurate than an AC20.  And that's not even counting using Cluster ammo and its well known capabilities against vehicles, but I tend to prefer LB in general even without the cluster rounds.  The range bonuses, and what it does to your short and medium bands, is just great.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Monitor Naval Vessel
« Reply #20 on: 05 July 2012, 12:57:55 »
I've seen a trio of Monitors used alongside a handful of J-Edgars on the river delta map.  Combined with a light battlemech lance they wrecked a couple of lances of Advanced IS heavies and assaults.  When battlemechs are forced into wading through trees and rivers, the monitors 3/5 profile suddenly doesn't look so slow...   ;)

Exactly my thoughts. The Monitor isn't an ideal water superiority unit because there are plenty of boats (and even large ships) that can run circles around it. But against BattleMechs and other land units straying into water, 3/5 is plenty for the Monitor to dictate engagement ranges.

If they made an Arrow IV Monitor, I'd put Crocketts on it. No why. Just on principle.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Monitor Naval Vessel
« Reply #21 on: 05 July 2012, 14:13:23 »
Well a combat speed of 54kph is 29 knots, which is not to shabby for a ship like this, though one thing to note that using all available movement rules that do not involve unit modifications, you can get that monitor to move at a brisk 97.2kph or 52.5knots (speed demon pilot, Sat nav. up-link and "sprinting").

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Monitor Naval Vessel
« Reply #22 on: 05 July 2012, 19:20:33 »
Exactly my thoughts. The Monitor isn't an ideal water superiority unit because there are plenty of boats (and even large ships) that can run circles around it. But against BattleMechs and other land units straying into water, 3/5 is plenty for the Monitor to dictate engagement ranges.
Under these conditions the Monitor should be the fastest thing around, baring jumpers who may crash every time they jump or real speed demons like the Locust which rely on high TMM they can't get now, plus Monitors don't have to worry about breach cheeks unless someone shows up with torpedo's

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Monitor Naval Vessel
« Reply #23 on: 05 July 2012, 19:29:41 »
plus Monitors don't have to worry about breach cheeks unless someone shows up with torpedoes
It does if someone shows up with lasers underwater - where it should be reminded that the Monitor can't do a damn thing about but "run" away.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Monitor Naval Vessel
« Reply #24 on: 05 July 2012, 22:29:24 »
They tend to be short, yeah, but an LB-20 at range 4, 7, or 8 is going to be a lot more accurate than an AC20.  And that's not even counting using Cluster ammo and its well known capabilities against vehicles, but I tend to prefer LB in general even without the cluster rounds.  The range bonuses, and what it does to your short and medium bands, is just great.


Being a huge fan of the LB 10X and LB 5X autocannons, I feel ya, brother. The LB X series is among the finest weapons in the game.

I suspect eventually most, if not all, of the Monitor-class vessels we play will sport LB 20X autocannons. But for now, we are satisfied with the current situation.

You gotta make allowances for the inner grognard once and a while.  :P :D



Exactly my thoughts. The Monitor isn't an ideal water superiority unit because there are plenty of boats (and even large ships) that can run circles around it. But against BattleMechs and other land units straying into water, 3/5 is plenty for the Monitor to dictate engagement ranges.
 

Agreed.

I look at the Monitor as a "brown water" naval asset. If it is tackling any boats besides other Monitors and similar vessels, somebody is doing it wrong in my opinion. If somebody is trying to play it in ocean/sea-based scenarios, the ship is out of it's element. It's purpose, from my POV, is riverine operations. It opposition is primarily other "river rats" and (as you mentioned) land units. You won't see my happy ass trying to sink a Meabh on the "seven seas" with a bunch of Monitors. I'll leave that to the "blue water" forces.



It does if someone shows up with lasers underwater - where it should be reminded that the Monitor can't do a damn thing about but "run" away.


Too bad we never cooked up some nasty house rules for depth charges in my group.



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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Monitor Naval Vessel
« Reply #25 on: 06 July 2012, 11:01:14 »
Glad to see I'm not the only one this thing screams "riverine" to.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Monitor Naval Vessel
« Reply #26 on: 07 July 2012, 01:27:34 »
It's the only thing it should ever be in, depth 1 water.  You get into depth 2 and there are Big Steel Sharks out there waiting to fry you.  Also, I wonder how well underwater scuba infantry would do against one of these.
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oldfart3025

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Monitor Naval Vessel
« Reply #27 on: 07 July 2012, 01:38:48 »
Glad to see I'm not the only one this thing screams "riverine" to.

Exactly.  It is, essentially, a true naval river monitor.

In fact, it reminds me of some of the Vietnam-era river boats, including (surprise!) the Monitor (MON):

http://www.rivervet.com/monitor.htm

http://www.warboats.org/vietnamboats.htm
« Last Edit: 07 July 2012, 01:40:57 by oldfart3025 »
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chanman

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Monitor Naval Vessel
« Reply #28 on: 07 July 2012, 02:12:19 »
It reminds me more of the gunboats of the Shanghai river patrol back in the 20's and 30's actually

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Monitor Naval Vessel
« Reply #29 on: 07 July 2012, 17:59:46 »
It's the only thing it should ever be in, depth 1 water.  You get into depth 2 and there are Big Steel Sharks out there waiting to fry you.  Also, I wonder how well underwater scuba infantry would do against one of these.

With the breach checks of underwater hits combined with with cluster damage of infantry? Scuba or MechSub troops that can sneak up on a Monitor stand a good chance of sinking one in very short order. They're dangerous enough that I'd probably use the Monitor's cargo bay to carry a squad of my own frogmen for escort.
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