Author Topic: Re-Establishing the Kerensky Bloodname  (Read 18406 times)

roosterboy

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Re: Re-Establishing the Kerensky Bloodname
« Reply #30 on: 09 August 2012, 21:05:31 »
Besides Quinn w/ the Jade Falcons,  is there any known instance of a Kerensky being in another clan leading up to the Jihad ?

What do you mean by "leading up to the Jihad"? There was a SCol Marc Kerensky in the Nova Cats at the battle of Luthien in 3052.

Alan Grant

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Re: Re-Establishing the Kerensky Bloodname
« Reply #31 on: 09 August 2012, 21:20:02 »
So Assuming Star Commander BILL Kerensky, a mediocre aging testdown sentenced to garrison life back in the Homeworlds w/o chance to ever see the IS is captured by Reaving Survival Clan #3 in 3069 in a minor trial for resources.

Bill shows loyalty to his new clan & tests out again & then survives the Reevings.

So...

1.  Clan #3 has no right to his DNA for breeding.
2.  iLKhan soinso does have the right to grant him a new Bloodname (1) &/or Blood Heritage (2) for his amazing defense of his new clan's genetic repository when under attack by rabid-tainted clansmen a few years later.
3.  Option #1 grants a new Blood Name, which in theory is not Kerensky, we'll call it Billson.
4.  Option #2 would in theory create a 26th Kerensky Heritage which could be passed on to a single descendant of Bill.    (This isn't really the 26th since the others are abjured)  This option is covered in the "Right of Propagation", IIRC, in WoK sourcebook.


Question, could Option 1 create a new bloodname as a "3rd" Kerensky as mentioned previously ?
(I don't even know if that is allowed)
I ask because it is the only way I could see more than 1 Kerensky ever holding that name again.


So basically it would require an act of truly heroic proportions as mentioned by others.
It would also require an iLKhan willing to do some serious rule bending, not sure if that would happen in a post reeving world.  Then again post reeving might be the only place it ever would happen.

Or...and this is the circumstance I find most reasonable. Bill isn't used to create a new Bloodname House. Bill is of the Bloodname House of Nicholas Kerensky, regardless of the status of Nicolas Kerensky's genetic legacy, he remains of the Bloodname House of Nicolas Kerensky and may, if his genetic legacy is somehow secured via Trial (with an acceptable Clan proxy for the Wolves) or by some decree be gifted to his new Clan, be used to create future generations of Kerensky Bloodname eligible warriors. Then its used to create sibkos of Bill's children, and when they grow up, they can fight Trials of Bloodright for the Kerensky Bloodname, and over the course of several generations of warriors, the Kerensky Bloodname house is refilled to capacity.

The assumption I keep seeing made is that the loss of the Founder's Legacy means no Bloodname House. I disagree with that, I have seen nothing that says that is Clan law. The Bloodname House lives on, through any trueborn warriors still with the Clans who is eligible for the Kerensky bloodname or already possesses it.

The way I see it, you need one of these:
1. The founder's legacy
2. Warriors eligible for the Bloodname
3. Warriors who have the Bloodname

If any 1 of the 3 conditions listed above exists, then that Bloodname House continues to exist, even if its membership is only includes Bill at the moment. Because with any 1 of those, you can eventually create new sibkos eligible for that bloodname. Assuming of course that the genetic legacies in question are free of scientist tampering.

That's how I look at it anyway. For that reason, I would not be that surprised, at all, if when the Homeworld Clans reappear in 3100something, they have a few Kerensky warriors running around. It would be very easy to write that into the story if they chose to. A Clan warship appears and...surprise...the Star Adder saKhan issuing the batchall for a renewed invasion is a Kerensky.

On the other hand, the writers might feel there are already enough "Kerenskys" running around the Inner Sphere and not go that route. But to my mind there is enough justification in-universe, for the HW Clans to rebuild the Kerensky Bloodname House (one or the other or both), if the writers and storytellers of BT decided to go that route.

And I don't buy the notion that just because he has "Wolf blood in him", Radick, Ward, whatever he's been reaved. By that logic, the Carrols should all be gone, they claim to have Kerensky blood in them. But as of Wars of Reaving Supplemental, that line has reappeared and is in use. So to have a lot of dormant Coyote lines that were removed in the Blood Scandal. By the end of the Wars of Reaving, the Home Clans are literally desperate for genetic legacies that are clean of scientist tampering.

All you need is a non-Wolf Kerensky bloodname eligible or blooded warrior who never saw the Inner Sphere and whose gene-mother and gene-father never visited the Inner Sphere (born before 3050, when the IlKhan wanted to 'reset' those bloodnames to). Difficult conditions to conjure, sure, but not impossible.
« Last Edit: 09 August 2012, 21:33:45 by Alan Grant »

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Re-Establishing the Kerensky Bloodname
« Reply #32 on: 09 August 2012, 22:21:26 »
Bill isn't used to create a new Bloodname House. Bill is of the Bloodname House of Nicholas Kerensky, regardless of the status of Nicolas Kerensky's genetic legacy...

The status of Nick or Andy's legacies is actually crucial to this.  To winnow the genepool of an entire bloodname down to one current representative is essentially a rejection of the bloodname's founder and the vast majority of the progeny that flowed from it.  It's like saying that your great-great-great-great-great grandparent was worthless except for their genetic ties to your sister.  I don't think that's going to happen when one of the Clans' most revered founders is the originator of the bloodname.

So I still don't see this happening.  Before a Homeworld Clan could restart Nick or Andy Kerensky's bloodhouse from scratch with only one of their descendents, all the Homeworld Clans would have to agree to reject all of Nick or Andy's existing legacies.  The Homeworld Clans aren't going to agree to something like that on political grounds alone.  The three other Homeworld Clans aren't going to let one Homeworld Clan lay claim to a bunch of future "Kerenskys" when they can just say that winnowing Nick or Andy's line down to just Bill's progeny would dishonor their most revered founders. 

But I also think doing so would actually be anathema to the Clans, especially the incredibly conservative remaining Homeworld Clans post-reavings.  They're not going to give up on the actual legacies of their most revered founders in favor of Bill's one legacy simply because those legacies are (temporarily) in the possession of some tainted Wolves.  And they're not going to throw away ~300 years that went into perfecting the legacies of their most revered founders in favor of Bill's one legacy simply because those legacies are (temporarily) in the possession of some tainted Wolves.

Unless Nick/Andy's actual legacies had all been destroyed, I think any Clanner proposing such would quickly face an insurmountable number of trials against the proposal and probably their own continued existence.

My 2 C-bills, FWIW.
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Blackhorse 6

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Re: Re-Establishing the Kerensky Bloodname
« Reply #33 on: 10 August 2012, 01:50:17 »
We know that no clan has Maternal breeding rights to any Kerensky

Unless TPTB have specifically reversed their previous decision, the Coyotes do have it, use it and are able to create a Kerensky Bloodline whenever the mood strikes them. 

Now lets see if TPTB flip on me after I had that same belief before then...   [AAAH]

Paul

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Re: Re-Establishing the Kerensky Bloodname
« Reply #34 on: 10 August 2012, 02:06:04 »
4.  Option #2 would in theory create a 26th Kerensky Heritage which could be passed on to a single descendant of Bill.    (This isn't really the 26th since the others are abjured.  This option is covered in the "Right of Propagation", IIRC, in WoK sourcebook.

As I understand it, there would be what, 50 Blood Names (25 from Nicholas and 25 from Andery), from the Kerensky Blood Heritage.  Unlike other Blood Names, it would seem that they have always been a populated one from the honor it brings, unlike other Blood Names.  Should one have been Reaved in the past for poor performance, it can be reinstated by a Trial of Propagation.  A Trial of Refusal on the issue would work if I understand the Martial Code correctly.


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Re: Re-Establishing the Kerensky Bloodname
« Reply #35 on: 10 August 2012, 02:18:13 »
So I still don't see this happening.  Before a Homeworld Clan could restart Nick or Andy Kerensky's bloodhouse from scratch with only one of their descendents, all the Homeworld Clans would have to agree to reject all of Nick or Andy's existing legacies.

Why?  Either you do or do not have the Blood Heritage.  In this case if you mean the Coyotes, they don't need permission for this.

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The Homeworld Clans aren't going to agree to something like that on political grounds alone.  The three other Homeworld Clans aren't going to let one Homeworld Clan lay claim to a bunch of future "Kerenskys" when they can just say that winnowing Nick or Andy's line down to just Bill's progeny would dishonor their most revered founders. 

I would.  I would get a foothold on the Blood Heritage and take the others from their respective Clans and take control of it.  Seems to be a great way to become recognized as THE Clan of Kerensky now that so many Clans have run or been run out of town.  The political prestige and honors that this Blood Heritage brings with it is worth nearly any price to be part of/controlled by a single Clan.  It would grant a veneer of legitimacy to the Clan who controlled it, with the ilClan still undecided who better to be the obvious choice?  The one who controls the Kerensky Blood Heritage.  Either that or the stinking Wolves might still grab it being on the goal line in the IS.   :'(

wantec

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Re: Re-Establishing the Kerensky Bloodname
« Reply #36 on: 10 August 2012, 07:47:01 »
Unless TPTB have specifically reversed their previous decision, the Coyotes do have it, use it and are able to create a Kerensky Bloodline whenever the mood strikes them. 

Now lets see if TPTB flip on me after I had that same belief before then...   [AAAH]

Paul
Not true. I have a reference from Operation Klondike, and I thought there was another ref in an older source material, but I can't seem to find it skimming quickly. Although all the references I've found list Kerensky as an exclusive Wolf bloodname. Maybe Roosterboy can help. From Op:K pg 34
Quote
Some legacies have been shared, but under very specific circumstances. Generally a legacy can be used
as a genefather or genemother, but an agreement between clans can limit this. The best known example of such an agreement is between the Wolves and the Coyotes regarding the legacies of Dana Kufahl and Andery Kerensky. It was agreed in the early days of the Clans to mark the love between Andery and Dana by having warriors that shared both heritages. However, the Coyotes always use the Kufahl legacy as the genemother and the Kerensky as the genefather, while the Wolves do the opposite. This means all Coyotes of the mixed Kufahl-Kerensky bloodline are only eligible for the Kufahl bloodname, while those of the same combined bloodline in the Wolves are only eligible for the Kerensky name.
BEN ROME YOU MAGNIFICENT BASTARD, I READ YOUR BOOK!


Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Re-Establishing the Kerensky Bloodname
« Reply #37 on: 10 August 2012, 08:06:33 »
Why?  Either you do or do not have the Blood Heritage.  In this case if you mean the Coyotes, they don't need permission for this.

I meant that I don't see the Homeworld Clans reestablishing a Nick or Andy Kerensky bloodhouse in the Homeworlds based on the giftake of only one existing Kerensky bloodnamed (Bill Kerensky in your example above).  To do that, all the Homeworld Clans (not just the one with Bill in its touman) would have to agree to reject all the rest of Nick or Andy's existing legacies, and agree that Bill is the new paragon of Kerensky-hood.  Unless Bill pulls an Aidan Pryde, I don't think the four remaining Homeworld Clans are going to agree that Bill measures up to Nick or Andy and can represent and propogate the entire bloodname going forward.

That's different from breeding a Kerensky patrilineally.  You don't have to reestablish a Kerensky bloodhouse in the Homeworlds for the 'Yotes to breed Andy's lineage patrilineally with Kufahl's lineage matrilineally, etc.

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I would.  I would get a foothold on the Blood Heritage and take the others from their respective Clans and take control of it.  Seems to be a great way to become recognized as THE Clan of Kerensky now that so many Clans have run or been run out of town.  The political prestige and honors that this Blood Heritage brings with it is worth nearly any price to be part of/controlled by a single Clan.

No doubt.  I agree that it is very tempting because it could enhance your Clans' power in a variety of ways.  But that's exactly why the other three remaining Homeworld Clans are going to oppose you if you make such a power grab.  Even if they didn't care about the true legacies of the Kerensky brothers (and I think some, if not all, would), they're not going to let one Clan lay claim to Kerensky power.  They're going to cry foul, point out that the true legacies of the Kerensky can't be ignored (even if they are temporarily held by abjured Wolves), claim that you're tainted for rejecting the legacies of their most revered founders, and trial you until you (and probably your bloodhouse and Clan) back down or are dead.

Obviously you should do whatever works best for your campaign, but if I was going to reestablish a Kerensky bloodhouse in the Homeworlds, I would make it a new bloodhouse based on the exploits of a highly exceptional warrior with Kerensky blood.  If such a warrior existed in the Homeworlds, I think there would be a temptation to create a new Kerensky bloodhouse with Bill Kerensky (or whoever) as its founder.  That doesn't require anyone to reject nearly all the actual legacies of Nick or Andy.

But I don't see the Homeworld Clans rejecting all the other legacies of Nick or Andy in favor of Bill.  Bill can come close, but he will never measure up to those most revered founders.

Quote
stinking Wolves

I resemble that remark.

My 2 C-bills, FWIW.
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Sid

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Re: Re-Establishing the Kerensky Bloodname
« Reply #38 on: 10 August 2012, 08:15:31 »
Unless TPTB have specifically reversed their previous decision, the Coyotes do have it, use it and are able to create a Kerensky Bloodline whenever the mood strikes them. 


This doesn't seem right- I remember a "Jennifer Kerensky" that took some flak for her 'In Character' origin of the name on these boards- using the first generation clause.

Is that what you're referring to?



I resemble that remark.



Probably not the best time to have a Freudian slip...  ;D
Formerly known as 'Phad'

Fireangel

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Re: Re-Establishing the Kerensky Bloodname
« Reply #39 on: 10 August 2012, 08:46:24 »
Do the Wolves-in-Exile and the "plain vanilla" Wolves have a single bloodhouse for each shared name?

That is, WiE Jane Kerensky fails a lawn dart check... do the WiE and CW do a joint Trial of Bloodright? or is it exclusive to the exiles?

Who (and where) are the Heads of House for the two Kerensky Bloodlines (Nicholas and Andery)?

Sid

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Re: Re-Establishing the Kerensky Bloodname
« Reply #40 on: 10 August 2012, 09:29:28 »
Do the Wolves-in-Exile and the "plain vanilla" Wolves have a single bloodhouse for each shared name?

That is, WiE Jane Kerensky fails a lawn dart check... do the WiE and CW do a joint Trial of Bloodright? or is it exclusive to the exiles?

Who (and where) are the Heads of House for the two Kerensky Bloodlines (Nicholas and Andery)?

With the exception of Kell, both Wolf Clans 'share' the Bloodnames in the sense they have the same Bloodnames.

They each maintain their own Bloodhouses for them though, with 25 each..

So- in theory, there's 50 Wards running around the Inner Sphere; 50 Radicks.  25 Kells...and 100 Kerenskys.

It's one of the (many) issues if they ever decided to form a single Clan again.  Although with even the Council of Six no longer active by the 3130s, and the way the Bears have integrated into the FRR...as well as creating their own Bloodnames- is there anything preventing them from just increasing the amount of holders from 25 to 50 anymore?
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Alan Grant

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Re: Re-Establishing the Kerensky Bloodname
« Reply #41 on: 10 August 2012, 09:44:16 »
To me, it isn't reconstituting or recreating the Kerensky Bloodname House. It continues to exist, it never stopped existing. It's still the Bloodname House of Nicholas or Andery Kerensky. Filled with warriors who are genetic descendants of those two individuals. That is what a Bloodname House is, the Founders are dead, the Bloodname House consists of their genetic descendants who are eligible or possess that Bloodname. With that, you have a Bloodname House, and that's all you need.

All of the HW Clans may lack the 'genetic' legacy, of the founders, but they quite possibly possess the genetic offspring of the Founders. Continuing to use them, to create sibkos from 'Bill' doesn't strike me as any kind of rejection of Nicholas or Andery, its the continued perpetuation and honoring of their legacy (not genetic, their legacy in general). Those warriors continue to honor Nicholas and Andery. The only thing wrong is that you can no longer create warriors bred DIRECTLY from Nicholas and Andery's legacies. You can't breed anymore 1st-generation children of those two. But, hypothetically speaking, if Bill is a 30th generation Kerensky, you can breed the 31st...32nd....etc. Using Bill as a gene-mother means his sibkos can compete for the Kerensky Bloodname. That's how you eventually refill that Bloodname House to capacity. And Bill doesn't have to be an Aidan Pryde success story for that to happen, he simply has to have earned the Kerensky bloodname via a Trial of Bloodright. And it doesn't then become "The Bloodname House of Bill Kerensky". It is still the Bloodname House of Nicholas Kerensky, Bill just happens to be the genetic bottleneck that occurred at this point in history, the family tree was reduced to one branch, but continues to sprout from that branch.

This whole thing, the entire Clan Eugenics Program, is about genetic evolution, one generation of warriors being better than the last, and that generation proving their worth so they can be used to create the next. That's what a Bloodname House is. Having the Founder's legacies on-hand is great, but to me, not essential to a Bloodname House's survival. You honor the founder in the Remembrance, you honor them through remembering their deeds and place in Clan history. You don't HAVE to be actively producing sibkos with their genetic legacy, and by extension, you don't have to have their genetic legacy at all. You build a statue, a new Blood Chapel, in their honor, and you continue producing new generations eligible for that Bloodname and they sing songs about their Founder, whose genetic legacy was lost to Wolf treachery, but whose name lives on and whose blood continues to exist in the veins of Clan Warriors (the HW Clans).

I won't say anymore on this. I feel like I've laid it out my point of view six-ways-to-Sunday and beyond this point it would just be a rehash. The only reason I've continued this far is because I still felt like the point I was trying to make wasn't getting through, but that's not up to me. I can't cite some specific canon chunk on Clan life that says whether or not a Bloodname House must have the House founder's legacy to survive and continue. So we can and probably would, continue going to circles about this unless some final and official arbiter laid down the law beyond what is written in publicly published canon materials. This is how I feel about it, and I offer it simply as food for thought. I'm simply trying to say, it is not impossible, that's all.

Ultimately I still feel, it won't come down to what does or does not exist, or what some Bloodname Founder legacy rule we've never seen says. It will come down to the Will and Wishes of the writers going forward, as to whether or not we see warriors with the Kerensky Bloodname among the HW Clans in the future. There is enough gray area, enough running room, to make it happen either way.
« Last Edit: 10 August 2012, 09:58:12 by Alan Grant »

Fireangel

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Re: Re-Establishing the Kerensky Bloodname
« Reply #42 on: 10 August 2012, 10:23:57 »

They each maintain their own Bloodhouses for them though, with 25 each..

Where is this mentioned?

Quote
It's one of the (many) issues if they ever decided to form a single Clan again.  Although with even the Council of Six no longer active by the 3130s, and the way the Bears have integrated into the FRR...as well as creating their own Bloodnames- is there anything preventing them from just increasing the amount of holders from 25 to 50 anymore?

I doubt they'd increase the number of legacies associated with a given bloodname. What seems more likely is simply adding new bloodnames to the roster in order to accommodate new "blood" originating from extraordinary warriors from the billions of non-clanners integrated into the Dominion.

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Re: Re-Establishing the Kerensky Bloodname
« Reply #43 on: 10 August 2012, 10:49:28 »
Where is this mentioned?

Warriors of the Clans. 

I think specifically its the Clan Wolf (and Exiles) writeup section from memory.

I doubt they'd increase the number of legacies associated with a given bloodname. What seems more likely is simply adding new bloodnames to the roster in order to accommodate new "blood" originating from extraordinary warriors from the billions of non-clanners integrated into the Dominion.

Oh, sorry, I meant Clan Wolf increase it's number of legacies.  I was using the Ghost Bears as an example of what deviations the other Clans' have done.

In 3067, the Grand Council would have frowned upon Clan Wolf 'accepting' Dark Caste back into it, who were guilty of genocide.  Even if they didn't, they'd likely have been displeased with Clan Wolf having 50 Wards at a time instead of 25.

The same could probably have been said of the Council of 6 in the late '70s.

But in the 3130s?  The other Clans might not like it, but there's no authority for them to appeal to.  Each Clan does as it pleases- so if there is a re-integration in, say, 3150, and Clan Wolf simply chooses to let everyone keep their Bloodnames instead of trying to figure out which Bloodnamed warriors keep their Bloodnames and which lose them, I doubt anyone would say anything.

I realize Ragnar already had his Bloodname while there was still a Council but still...
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Fireangel

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Re: Re-Establishing the Kerensky Bloodname
« Reply #44 on: 10 August 2012, 12:28:24 »
Warriors of the Clans. 

You mean The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky

Quote
I think specifically its the Clan Wolf (and Exiles) writeup section from memory.

Found  it (DANG! it's been a long time since I checked the old writeups in WoK!); pp. 97:

"Both factions have complete copies of the Wolf Clan's genetic legacies and have pursued their own eugenics programs. Both have also held their own Trials for Bloodheritages, resulting in the existence of two holders of each - one Crusader, the other Warden. Unofficially, the Wardens have shown a willingness to arrange Trials only for the heritages they took into exile."

One could assume that said trials take place only once the current living holder dies. In the case of WiE Jane Kerensky, while she lives, she is the only holder of that bloodright; however, when she bites the big one, two Trials of Bloodright will take place; one among the crusaders, one among the exiles. Interestingly enough, if Crusader Wolf Daria Kerensky kicks it, only one Trial of Bloodright will take place (among the crusaders)... at least according to WoK (around 3062); there is no guarantee that the exile's willingness to refrain from doubling crusader Wolf legacies extended beyond that year or Kell's tenure.

Interestingly enough, the WiE Khan could institute a Trial of Propagation to make use of abandoned heritages which the crusaders are not using; particularly in Limited Bloodnames like Conners, Shaw, Ch'in and Leroux (which have five or less legacies among the crusaders as of 3085).

Of course, the exiles have Kell plus any "Dragoon" legacies (IIRC they had instituted a bloodname-like practice and had their own eugenics program). They might also have access to the Nova Cat eugenics program, which would certainly help maintain "purity" in both trueborn programs.

The exiles might also have "free access" to the DNA and bloodheritages of any warriors (or even ex-warriors under certain circumstances) with legacies from the "dead clans".



Regarding the thread's topic; since the Homeworld Clans decided to close communications with the tainted Inner Sphere Clans (not abjured; that requires a Trial), they would be unable to use the DNA or bloodname, since they would be unable to Trial for their use... HOWEVER, they might be able to use the legacies of those Kerensky warriors still in their control (i.e. abthaka) IF those legacies can be traced back to the WARDEN Wolves-in-Exile who were fully abjured by the Clans as a whole and by the (legitimate) crusader Wolves.

This might bring about the extraordinary situation that for a few particular Kerensky legacies, there are THREE holders of the heritage! To continue my example, when WiE Jane Kerensky kamikazes into a fig tree, the WiE have a Trial of Bloodright for her bloodheritage, the Crusader Wolves have a second Trial of Bloodright for her bloodheritage and when word of her death reaches the Clan Homeworlds, a THIRD Trial of Bloodright takes place for her bloodheritage; the competitors are her sibkin Joe (captured by the Cobras) and a bunch of warriors created by the Scorpions from her abjured DNA. The winner of this Trial would be the Head of House Kerensky (Andery) in the Clan Homeworlds; his/her matrilineal descendants, as well as those of the other (legitimate) competitors sharing his/her matrilineal DNA (Andery Kerensky's) would be able to compete for new bloodheritages... including other Andery Kerensky descendants captured from the Crusader Wolves.

Thus, there might potentially be as many as 150 Kerensky bloodnamed warriors (assuming something similar happens with the Nicholas line), but the probability of this would be so remote as to be nearly impossible. At best, you might have Kerensky (one or the other) with a few legacies in the Clan Worlds, 25 of each among the Crusaders and unusual numbers up to 25 each among the exiles.

Many years down the line, three descendants of Andery Kerensky

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Re: Re-Establishing the Kerensky Bloodname
« Reply #45 on: 10 August 2012, 12:31:06 »
What do you mean by "leading up to the Jihad"? There was a SCol Marc Kerensky in the Nova Cats at the battle of Luthien in 3052. 

AH HA,  thank you sir,  that might be the one I was thinking of.

I was pretty sure I had seen a commander of some Non-Wolf unit in some book that was a Kerensky.

By "Leading up to" I mean recent, as in could still be alive & in said clan 15-20 years later.
As opposed to an older historical reference.
Basically, since 3050 invasion is what I meant.
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3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

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Re: Re-Establishing the Kerensky Bloodname
« Reply #46 on: 10 August 2012, 12:31:57 »
Unless TPTB have specifically reversed their previous decision, the Coyotes do have it, use it and are able to create a Kerensky Bloodline whenever the mood strikes them.   

I've always heard it was Paternal only.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

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Re: Re-Establishing the Kerensky Bloodname
« Reply #47 on: 10 August 2012, 12:47:36 »
Who (and where) are the Heads of House for the two Kerensky Bloodlines (Nicholas and Andery)?
 
In the case of the Wolves & Exiles I'd say there are 2 house leaders.


With the exception of Kell, both Wolf Clans 'share' the Bloodnames in the sense they have the same Bloodnames.

They each maintain their own Bloodhouses for them though, with 25 each..


"Both factions have complete copies of the Wolf Clan's genetic legacies and have pursued their own eugenics programs. Both have also held their own Trials for Bloodheritages, resulting in the existence of two holders of each - one Crusader, the other Warden. Unofficially, the Wardens have shown a willingness to arrange Trials only for the heritages they took into exile." 



I always read that to mean the the Exiles only have "double" names for the actual bloodnamed warriors that left with them.

So they would never have had slots for the 3 Kerensky's leading the Crusaders right now for instance.
But, they would fill Natasha's old slot or Darrel who was with the 13th Guards.

As for the Crusaders,  I'm not sure they have to wait for an Exile to die off 1st.
Can't they replace that heritage since the current holder was abjured & is "No longer clan" ?
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
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Re: Re-Establishing the Kerensky Bloodname
« Reply #48 on: 10 August 2012, 12:49:54 »
From Historical: Operation Klondike.

Generally a legacy can be used
as a genefather or genemother, but an agreement between clans can limit this. The best known example of such an agreement is between the
Wolves and the Coyotes regarding the legacies of Dana Kufahl and Andery Kerensky. It was agreed in the early days of the Clans to mark the love
between Andery and Dana by having warriors that shared both heritages. However, the Coyotes always use the Kufahl legacy as the genemother
and the Kerensky as the genefather, while the Wolves do the opposite. This means all Coyotes of the mixed Kufahl-Kerensky bloodline are only
eligible for the Kufahl bloodname, while those of the same combined bloodline in the Wolves are only eligible for the Kerensky name.


Also, after the Wolves in exiles left, Vlad fought a Trial of Bloodright for Phelan's 'old' bloodname. Not because Phelan became Phelan Kell, but because as he was abjured, Phelan no longer counted and thus that particular Ward name was now available. Abjured means as far as Clan society is concerned, you are no longer Clan and no longer have that bloodname. It reverts back to the status it held before you won it in a Trial of Bloodright, to go to someone else.

So as far as Clan society is concerned, Pre-Wars of Reaving, the Crusader Wolves are the only Bloodnamed Wolves. Clan Wolf-in-Exile is acting in spite of the Abjurement by retaining their bloodnames and continuing their own copy of the Clan Wolf Eugenics Program.

That continues post-Wars of Reaving, except now the Crusader Wolves are recognized, but only by the Council of Six in the Inner Sphere.
« Last Edit: 10 August 2012, 12:56:21 by Alan Grant »

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Re: Re-Establishing the Kerensky Bloodname
« Reply #49 on: 10 August 2012, 14:04:05 »
does it matter? The Inner Sphere has it's Wolves (Two Flavors. Three flavors, if you count both the CrCW, WCWiE and i guess WD) and the home clans have none.

...besides, can you imagine the annual Ky-Con in Las Vegas? the worst cast(e) scenario you all have created with this 'What IF &^%* is 150 folks, last name Kerensky. Holy &^%*, that's like 150 Smiths or Jones (at the dropport, a 150 limo dudes holding up 'Kerensky' signs...)

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Re: Re-Establishing the Kerensky Bloodname
« Reply #50 on: 11 August 2012, 00:33:13 »
This doesn't seem right- I remember a "Jennifer Kerensky" that took some flak for her 'In Character' origin of the name on these boards- using the first generation clause.

Is that what you're referring to?


Yes.  I was the FGC Coyote Khan and I disallowed the very thought as it violated the belief of patrilineal use only.  I was overruled by TPTB and that was tradition and not a rule the Coyotes followed.  First or last generation was irrelevant at the end of it all and the FGC Wolves went ballistic...

I had to suck the judgement up and prepare the bids for a Clan on Clan Wide Refusal... I was pretty steamed at the time as it really eight balled our ability to dispose of this as an internal matter.

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Re: Re-Establishing the Kerensky Bloodname
« Reply #51 on: 11 August 2012, 00:48:32 »
From Historical: Operation Klondike.

Generally a legacy can be used
as a genefather or genemother, but an agreement between clans can limit this. The best known example of such an agreement is between the
Wolves and the Coyotes regarding the legacies of Dana Kufahl and Andery Kerensky. It was agreed in the early days of the Clans to mark the love
between Andery and Dana by having warriors that shared both heritages. However, the Coyotes always use the Kufahl legacy as the genemother
and the Kerensky as the genefather, while the Wolves do the opposite. This means all Coyotes of the mixed Kufahl-Kerensky bloodline are only
eligible for the Kufahl bloodname, while those of the same combined bloodline in the Wolves are only eligible for the Kerensky name.


I don't deny this passage, as a matter of fact I petitioned for its rewording during the fact check phase of the book.  This doesn't say that either Clan is prohibited from swapping their gene parents, it says that they have always done so as stated.  Let's kick this up to the bosses as the old board had the info and is no longer accessible that I can tell.  I would be very happy to be wrong... deliriuosly so to see that point reversed.  Wantec has clearly stated the issue as I held to before the clarification was made and I would love to be able to hold to it again.   8)

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Re: Re-Establishing the Kerensky Bloodname
« Reply #52 on: 11 August 2012, 00:56:44 »
Yes.  I was the FGC Coyote Khan and I disallowed the very thought as it violated the belief of patrilineal use only.  I was overruled by TPTB and that was tradition and not a rule the Coyotes followed.  First or last generation was irrelevant at the end of it all and the FGC Wolves went ballistic...

I had to suck the judgement up and prepare the bids for a Clan on Clan Wide Refusal... I was pretty steamed at the time as it really eight balled our ability to dispose of this as an internal matter.

Eh, my memory's fuzzy, but it seemed a bit blown out of proportion from what I remember.

As I understand, the Coyote's have the right to Andery's Blood Legacy as long as it's used Paternally.  That's the Legacy

Jenn, to her credit, was thinking 'out of the box' by saying her character was from a Sibko of Andery's genetic material itself

Which the Coyotes would never have (nor have) used Andery's genetic material itself.

I mean, I don't see the Wolves doing it either.  The whole point of the Eugenics is to improve the line right?  When it came time to whip up another Kerensky sibko, they used Natasha's genetic material to make Ranna's sibko.  They didn't use Nicholas's.

So, the authors said, in theory, the Coyotes could use Andery's material paternally and the warriors from the sibko could, in theory, compete for the Kerensky Bloodname.

But, in universe, the Coyotes wouldn't because the Wolves would go ballistic.  Just like it actually happened in the FGC.

Sounds about right.

And Andery's material subsequently had bleach poured all over it and then set on fire under Vlad's orders- leaving nothing for the Home Clans to use.

I don't see the problem, honestly.


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Re: Re-Establishing the Kerensky Bloodname
« Reply #53 on: 11 August 2012, 07:15:27 »
Which the Coyotes would never have (nor have) used Andery's genetic material itself.

You mean, like a clone of Andery with the Y chromosome removed (Maeve Wolf redoux, so to speak)?

Quote
So, the authors said, in theory, the Coyotes could use Andery's material paternally and the warriors from the sibko could, in theory, compete for the Kerensky Bloodname.

But, in universe, the Coyotes wouldn't because the Wolves would go ballistic.  Just like it actually happened in the FGC.

But the right to compete for a bloodname is established matrilinearlly; even if said character had Andery as a gene father, she'd be unable to compete for the bloodname unless her gene mother carried the Andery's mitochondrial DNA.

Quote
And Andery's material subsequently had bleach poured all over it and then set on fire under Vlad's orders- leaving nothing for the Home Clans to use.

He did? You mean the destruction of the Wolf Repository on Strana Mechty, right? not a separate incident stemming from this Jenniffer situation?


Note that even with the repository destroyed along with every copy contained therein, any warriors of the bloodhouse left behind still have their DNA intact from which a new generation of warriors can (potentially) be bred who are elegible for that bloodname.




Which reminds me; in Wars of Reaving, there are several bloodnames mentioned as being usable as genefather only; in every case, it is clear that the matrilinear control of the House rests in another clan, with one exception: Snow Raven's Shu (marked as a Limited bloodname with 5 or less legacies). Shu is a weird case because it is a truly exclusive bloodname and has been under raven control since Bradley Shu back in Klondike. Does anybody have any idea why it is so marked (WoR pp. 195)? or how you can have a blood house that can't use its DNA to create warriors elegible for its own bloodname?  ???

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Re: Re-Establishing the Kerensky Bloodname
« Reply #54 on: 11 August 2012, 09:50:20 »
WoR page 178.

It was not until 3079 that conclusive evidence came to light that the Society had corrupted not just the Crow legacy, but also the Shu bloodline. While new samples were taken from the living Bloodnamed warriors of both lines, there were too few to ensure their genetic diversity and were restricted to use as only a genefather.


I suspect it is a temporary measure for reasons like the above, with the potential to improve once some more unblooded Shu warriors earn their bloodname. Though honestly, I don't see why that would prevent them from producing a few sibkos (as gene-mother) from the legacies they do have. Otherwise it creates a weird situation. When those Bloodnames come up for Trial of Bloodright in the future, if Shu has been 'genefather only' for a couple or more generations of warriors, the pool of warriors eligible will be very small (mostly those born before this decision was made). That means lesser warriors could have a shot at a bloodname because competition is scarce.

I figure the decision was made by the scientists, not the warriors, who are more concerned about genetic diversity. Whereas a warriors are more likely to be concerned with seeing their Bloodname House grow like a weed.

« Last Edit: 11 August 2012, 09:58:19 by Alan Grant »

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Re: Re-Establishing the Kerensky Bloodname
« Reply #55 on: 11 August 2012, 12:01:30 »
WoR page 178.

It was not until 3079 that conclusive evidence came to light that the Society had corrupted not just the Crow legacy, but also the Shu bloodline. While new samples were taken from the living Bloodnamed warriors of both lines, there were too few to ensure their genetic diversity and were restricted to use as only a genefather.

That.... makes no sense...  ???

Quote
I suspect it is a temporary measure for reasons like the above, with the potential to improve once some more unblooded Shu warriors earn their bloodname. Though honestly, I don't see why that would prevent them from producing a few sibkos (as gene-mother) from the legacies they do have. Otherwise it creates a weird situation. When those Bloodnames come up for Trial of Bloodright in the future, if Shu has been 'genefather only' for a couple or more generations of warriors, the pool of warriors eligible will be very small (mostly those born before this decision was made). That means lesser warriors could have a shot at a bloodname because competition is scarce.

I figure the decision was made by the scientists, not the warriors, who are more concerned about genetic diversity. Whereas a warriors are more likely to be concerned with seeing their Bloodname House grow like a weed.

Considering that it is already "limited" to 5 or less legacies and that a warrior "generation" is pretty darn short, it might as well be the kiss of death of the bloodline.

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Re: Re-Establishing the Kerensky Bloodname
« Reply #56 on: 11 August 2012, 12:57:45 »
I'm guessing that its an EXTREMELY temporary measure. As in, it goes back to full status in 5-10 years tops, after a few more unblooded warriors of that line become bloodnamed, and more genetic legacies in storage have had time to be sorted through (to find any that are usable). A generational gap sure, but not necessarily the kiss of death.

I think it will just mean that the Shu warriors still living, will have ample opportunities to win a bloodname. If there are only 5 bloodheritages in use, only 5 bloodnamed at any given time, then those other Shu warriors who otherwise might not get the opportunity, will be able to earn a bloodname as those turn over due to warrior death. So the Bloodname House continues to exist, though some might call into question the quality of those warriors (as long as they can hold their own in a Circle of Equals against such slander, they can get through it ok).

If there are already Shu cadets among the living sibkos, among different age groups, and the gene-father status really is limited to 5-10 years, I don't think its the kiss of death. Its far from ideal, but they just might survive it unless some great source of attrition kills off the current and up-and-coming Shu warriors in great numbers.

Honestly in this situation, if they were supposed to be a full Bloodname House with a bloodcount of 25, it would be a far greater crisis. That's a bigger Bloodname House that needs more warriors. More Bloodnames to fill means you need more eligible contenders, not just winners, but competitors who will lose, otherwise its no competition and a victory in a Trial of Bloodright becomes meaningless, damaging the Bloodname's reputation with every poorly won Trial of Bloodright.

Other Bloodname Houses have seen far worse in this era and still survive. It isn't until sometime in the mid to late 3080s that the HW Clans start reusing some Bloodlines, like Carrol, Faraday and Kreese, after they've been certified as clean of tampering by the scientists. I don't imagine there are many warriors of those lines alive, many no doubt died with Clan Fire Mandrill. There could easily be a generational gap of such magnitude that for a while, those Bloodname Houses all but cease to exist, with Trials of Bloodright suspended, until the new generation of warriors is fully matured.

We saw something similar happen with the Clan Mongoose legacies that Clan Cloud Cobra Trialed for after the Smoke Jaguars absorbed them. Those Mongoose warriors were gone, dead or consigned to be Smoke Jaguar cannon fodder (source: Era Report: Golden Century) while a new generation was born in Clan Cloud Cobra's sibkos. I'm sure in the interim, those Bloodname Houses were empty.
« Last Edit: 11 August 2012, 13:06:58 by Alan Grant »

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Re: Re-Establishing the Kerensky Bloodname
« Reply #57 on: 11 August 2012, 13:54:11 »
Until they are dead, even if they are in solahma units, digging ditches or destined for the front lines, they still are part of their bloodhouse.
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Re: Re-Establishing the Kerensky Bloodname
« Reply #58 on: 11 August 2012, 21:38:40 »
So, the authors said, in theory, the Coyotes could use Andery's material paternally

Yes, as the Coyotes always have.

Quote
and the warriors from the sibko could, in theory, compete for the Kerensky Bloodname.

No.  The Coyotes can switch the geneparents and create Kerensky sibkos.  There is nothing that stops them from doing so.  What I took as a rule was clarified as a tradition that is not binding.  So the Coyotes are able to do this just as the Wolves can create Kufahl sibkos.  Now that is when the headaches became migraines...  :-[

Now looking at the Reaving, I would dare say all bets are off. 

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Re: Re-Establishing the Kerensky Bloodname
« Reply #59 on: 11 August 2012, 23:33:32 »
I imagine dealing with all this is part of the reason WHY the Clans haven't appeared to go gonzo on the Inner Sphere yet.  They're not just rebuilding 'Mechs, they're rebuilding their entire Warrior population base.  I now wonder what nightmares we're going to see when they come back...
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