Author Topic: First mech with AC/20 is the Victor?  (Read 7436 times)

Neufeld

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2539
  • Raven, Lyran, Horse, Capellan, Canopian, Bear
First mech with AC/20 is the Victor?
« on: 09 August 2012, 17:18:56 »
Was the Victor the first mech that mounted an AC/20?
« Last Edit: 10 August 2012, 05:12:18 by Neufeld »

"Real men and women do not need Terra"
-- Grendel Roberts
"
We will be used to subdue the Capellan Confederation. We will be used to bring the Free Worlds League to heel. We will be used to
hunt bandits and support corrupt rulers and to reinforce the evils of the Inner Sphere that drove our ancestors from it so long ago."
-- Elias Crichell

GhostCat

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 814
  • If A, then B, The Evil Genius Argument
Re: First mech with AC/20 is Victor?
« Reply #1 on: 09 August 2012, 17:33:56 »
Several other 3025 mechs also sported the AC20.  Notably, the Hunchback, Atlas, and Cyclops.  Which came first is more a matter of Canon, Fiat and RetCon as far as Timeline goes. 

I do not have easy access to my old and possibly outdated TROs and will not commit to making a guess about which came first, chicken or egg.

GC
"Spirit Cats are just pirates basically." --- Quote from Herb


Arkansas Warrior

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7615
Re: First mech with AC/20 is Victor?
« Reply #2 on: 09 August 2012, 17:35:41 »
There's at least one Mackie variant with an AC/20, though whether or not such a mech came about before the Victor carrying the same is anyone's guess.
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, cowerer of Dainmar Liao, Creator of the Model Army, Rescuer of Robinson, Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

cray

  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5538
  • How's it sit? Pretty cunning, don't you think?
Re: First mech with AC/20 is Victor?
« Reply #3 on: 09 August 2012, 17:46:16 »
Hunchback: per TR:3025 and 3039, first built in 2572.
Victor: per TR:3025 and 3039, first built in 2510.

Per TR:3075, the Mackie MSK-7 series "covered new factory models from the late 25th century [i.e., 2475+], mostly built around a powerful autocannon and a number of heavy energy weapons."

So the Mackie is probably the first, beating out the Victor by a few decades.

Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading." --Thomas Jefferson, or not

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

Hellraiser

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6870
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: First mech with AC/20 is Victor?
« Reply #4 on: 09 August 2012, 20:06:50 »
While the dates don't show it I found a piece of fluff that don't really match up w/ the AC20.


All taken from TRO: 3025

1. 
Quote
The Atlas was the first 'Mech to mount such a large and devastating autocannon. 

Maybe the Atlas had a Super-AC20   ;)


And a little off topic.

2. 
Quote
     The Cyclops' weaponry is mixed so that it can attack or defend itself against any opponent at any range necessary. The Delta Dart LRM pack is capable of engaging the enemy at extreme range. The Zeus-36 Mark III autocannon can be used in the middle ranges. Finally, the two Diverse Optics Type 20 medium lasers with the Hovertec SRM quad can take on anything that gets nearer.

3. 
Quote
       The Pontiac 100 autocannon provides the Victor with medium-range capability ....
     The Victor's left arm sports the mainstay of its close-range weapons, the twin Sorenstein V medium lasers. These lasers are supplemented by the Holly short-range missile rack, intended for close-range fire support. 

Quotes 2 & 3 always made me think that the AC20 was meant to have a longer range than the ML & SRM.  Maybe Base 4 instead of 3?


Mmmm, AC 20 w/ 4-8-12 range,  now that would compete against ML spam a bit more.   ;)
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

ColonelCody

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 901
  • "What We Have Here, Is Failure To Communicate"
Re: First mech with AC/20 is Victor?
« Reply #5 on: 09 August 2012, 20:09:56 »
Well, I know the Hunchback existed before the Atlas, since the Atlas was ordered by Kerensky and the HBK series already existed at that point and was in widespread usage.

ANS Kamas P81

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8147
Re: First mech with AC/20 is Victor?
« Reply #6 on: 09 August 2012, 20:17:55 »
All taken from TRO: 3025
Well there's your problem, mister.  Yeah, like ColBosch's sig says, FASA was never really big on the whole internal consistency and fact-checking thing.  I'd honestly chuck the old books, especially when they've been superceded with new product (see also TRO 3039)

Arkansas Warrior

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7615
Re: First mech with AC/20 is Victor?
« Reply #7 on: 09 August 2012, 20:19:32 »
At least some of that was carried over.  I remember his #3 from a recent reading of the Victor entry in '39.
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, cowerer of Dainmar Liao, Creator of the Model Army, Rescuer of Robinson, Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

Hellraiser

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6870
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: First mech with AC/20 is Victor?
« Reply #8 on: 09 August 2012, 20:20:31 »
Well there's your problem, mister.  Yeah, like ColBosch's sig says, FASA was never really big on the whole internal consistency and fact-checking thing.  I'd honestly chuck the old books, especially when they've been superceded with new product (see also TRO 3039)

/gasp,  and loose my access to out of date & inconsistent historical data.......NEVER.   :D

I love the old girl, warts & all.

But yes, I know the Atlas part doesn't match up,  just pointed out what I found when I went searching for info on the OP question.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

I am Belch II

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6522
  • It's a gator with a nuke, whats the problem.
Re: First mech with AC/20 is Victor?
« Reply #9 on: 09 August 2012, 20:22:05 »
I would say yes. Tech Manual say AC20 came out in 2500, and the Victor was 2510.

Atlas came out much later in 2750's. The King Crab was out before the Atlas.
Walking the fine line between sarcasm and being a smart-ass

500 is the number of Warships Now. 500 looks like it will stay for a long time.

LastChanceCav

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2209
  • Repossessing the dispossessed ...
Re: First mech with AC/20 is the Victor?
« Reply #10 on: 10 August 2012, 07:53:23 »
According to the MUL, the first Victor was produced in 2508 (VTR-9A), the first Hunchback in 2572, the first Cyclops in 2710, and the first Atlas in 2755. The first Mackie with an AC20 is the MSK-8B which debuted in 2576. It does look like the Victor may be the first production mech with an AC20.

Cheers,
LCC
Last Chance Engineering - Bespoke Battlemechs for the refined gentleman.

00Dawg

  • CamoSpecs
  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 694
  • 'elp! I'm bein' repressed!
Re: First mech with AC/20 is Victor?
« Reply #11 on: 10 August 2012, 10:14:58 »
Maybe the Atlas had a Super-AC20   ;)
20.1 points of damage, rounded down.   O:-)

CDT Special Agent #343
Team Lead:  CamoSpecs Enforcement Squad Delta 6

Orion

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 589
Re: First mech with AC/20 is Victor?
« Reply #12 on: 10 August 2012, 11:01:23 »
Maybe the Atlas had a Super-AC20   ;)

Could easily be retconned as being the first to carry an autocannon of such large caliber, rather than of damage capacity.
Game mechanics are a way of resolving questions in play, not explanations of the world itself.

Due to changes in work internet usage rules, and being too tired at night, I can't check the forums often. PM me if you want to ensure a response.

Hellraiser

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6870
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: First mech with AC/20 is Victor?
« Reply #13 on: 10 August 2012, 11:28:31 »
Could easily be retconned as being the first to carry an autocannon of such large caliber, rather than of damage capacity. 

Aye........Only shoots 3 round bursts.........but does so from a 250mm canon !!!

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Fireangel

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3404
  • 7397 posts right down the toilet...
Re: First mech with AC/20 is Victor?
« Reply #14 on: 10 August 2012, 11:41:22 »
Could easily be retconned as being the first to carry an autocannon of such large caliber, rather than of damage capacity.

This.

Since AC damage is divorced from actual caliber, it is possible that the Atlas's AC/20 simply had the largest, most powerful single-round performance of any AC/20 ever built, but fires at a lower cyclic rate.

Aye........Only shoots 3 round bursts.........but does so from a 250mm canon !!!

If I had to guess, I'd say 203mm. The clans have an AC/20 in that caliber and off-hand I can't think of a larger caliber in BT.

evilauthor

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2709
Re: First mech with AC/20 is Victor?
« Reply #15 on: 10 August 2012, 12:06:06 »
This.

Since AC damage is divorced from actual caliber, it is possible that the Atlas's AC/20 simply had the largest, most powerful single-round performance of any AC/20 ever built, but fires at a lower cyclic rate.

If I had to guess, I'd say 203mm. The clans have an AC/20 in that caliber and off-hand I can't think of a larger caliber in BT.

Going by the fluff art, I'd say the opposite. The Atlas's AC muzzle is TINY compared to either the Cyclops' and the Hunchback's. I'd say the Atlas' AC/20's real feat is firing lots and lots of rounds and still getting most all of them into a very tiny shot group.

Fireangel

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3404
  • 7397 posts right down the toilet...
Re: First mech with AC/20 is Victor?
« Reply #16 on: 10 August 2012, 17:37:50 »
Going by the fluff art, I'd say the opposite. The Atlas's AC muzzle is TINY compared to either the Cyclops' and the Hunchback's. I'd say the Atlas' AC/20's real feat is firing lots and lots of rounds and still getting most all of them into a very tiny shot group.

Don't forget that 203mm is basically just eight inches; in a 12m tall 'mech, the muzzle is going to be tiny. Put another way; if an Atlas is scaled down to be the same height as a 6' tall man, the bore of a 203mm boomer would be about 1.33 inches (33.8mm).

There is no real reason why the barrels of other units look so HUGE; maybe it's a cooling sleeve or an armour cowl housing a gatling-type mechanism.

ianargent

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 188
Re: First mech with AC/20 is the Victor?
« Reply #17 on: 10 August 2012, 17:58:41 »
So, what is with the Thunder and it's cannon, anyway?
Yes, KF drive vessels, assuming they survive the atmospher[ic reentry] (they take 100 points of damage per hex per turn of velocity in the atmosphere), do tend to use an aggressive lithobraking method for landing.

Charlie Tango

  • Big Shoulders Moderator
  • Global Moderator
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5539
  • What we have here... is failure to communicate.
Re: First mech with AC/20 is the Victor?
« Reply #18 on: 10 August 2012, 18:10:20 »
So, what is with the Thunder and it's cannon, anyway?

 The Capellans compensating for something...  ;)
Catalyst Game Labs Demo Agent #310
MW Yuki Yamamori, WTH-1 Whitworth, 1st Striker Star, Alpha Trinary, Battle Corps Legion

"This is a war universe. War all the time. That is its nature.
There may be other universes based on all sorts of other principles, but ours seems to be based on war and games."
  
-- William S. Burroughs

Fireangel

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3404
  • 7397 posts right down the toilet...
Re: First mech with AC/20 is the Victor?
« Reply #19 on: 10 August 2012, 18:10:36 »
So, what is with the Thunder and it's cannon, anyway?

The 55U artwork shows that the barrel itself is quite small, but is surrounded by... a keg. ::)

ColonelCody

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 901
  • "What We Have Here, Is Failure To Communicate"
Re: First mech with AC/20 is the Victor?
« Reply #20 on: 10 August 2012, 18:28:56 »
The 55U artwork shows that the barrel itself is quite small, but is surrounded by... a keg. ::)
Isn't most of the size supposed to be the Ammo?

Fireangel

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3404
  • 7397 posts right down the toilet...
Re: First mech with AC/20 is the Victor?
« Reply #21 on: 10 August 2012, 18:38:37 »
Isn't most of the size supposed to be the Ammo?

Could be. Might be some kind of helical magazine for the three tons of ammo.

SteelRaven

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 6079
  • Fight for something or Die for nothing
    • The Steel-Raven at DeviantArt
Re: First mech with AC/20 is the Victor?
« Reply #22 on: 10 August 2012, 19:10:55 »
So, what is with the Thunder and it's cannon, anyway?
Just a example of when artist crazy with bore size. You have Loose giving the Grizzly a Mega-Man blaster, the Barghest's huge LB-X 20, the Ninja-To's huge Large Lasers, ect.   
Battletech Art and Commissions
http://steel-raven.deviantart.com

ianargent

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 188
Re: First mech with AC/20 is the Victor?
« Reply #23 on: 10 August 2012, 19:34:08 »
The Capellans compensating for something...  ;)
For the record, I choose not to go there.
Yes, KF drive vessels, assuming they survive the atmospher[ic reentry] (they take 100 points of damage per hex per turn of velocity in the atmosphere), do tend to use an aggressive lithobraking method for landing.

Fireangel

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3404
  • 7397 posts right down the toilet...
Re: First mech with AC/20 is the Victor?
« Reply #24 on: 10 August 2012, 20:03:46 »
For the record, I choose not to go there.

RECOIL compensator.

Yeah. That'll do.  O:-)

Orin J.

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2272
  • I am to feared! Aw, come on guys...
Re: First mech with AC/20 is the Victor?
« Reply #25 on: 10 August 2012, 22:19:04 »
RECOIL compensator.

Yeah. That'll do.  O:-)


well, depending on how far off into the land o' fluff you wanna go the CCG branded the Thunder as "the fastest AC/20 in the inner sphere" so i guess it's possible they went all out on getting that cannon be able to pretty much snap-fire.
The Grey Death Legion? Dead? Gotcha, wake me when it's back.....
--------------------------
Every once in a while things make sense.


Don't let these moments alarm you. They pass.

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6854
Re: First mech with AC/20 is the Victor?
« Reply #26 on: 11 August 2012, 03:46:56 »
Yeah, Mul says that the Victor VTR-9A1 is the first 'Mech to carry an AC/20, but the Engineering Vehicle (AC) introduced in 2500 may beat it

Fireangel

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3404
  • 7397 posts right down the toilet...
Re: First mech with AC/20 is the Victor?
« Reply #27 on: 11 August 2012, 08:56:19 »
Yeah, Mul says that the Victor VTR-9A1 is the first 'Mech to carry an AC/20, but the Engineering Vehicle (AC) introduced in 2500 may beat it

In all fairness, the engineering vehicle introduced "back in the day" may well have been packing something else, like a heavy rifle (cannon).

Neufeld

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2539
  • Raven, Lyran, Horse, Capellan, Canopian, Bear
Re: First mech with AC/20 is the Victor?
« Reply #28 on: 11 August 2012, 10:25:33 »
Another thing to consider is that the AC/20 is a Lyran invention, the Victor is not.
I am starting to suspect that a non-published Lyran Mackie version might have been the first to mount the gun after all.

"Real men and women do not need Terra"
-- Grendel Roberts
"
We will be used to subdue the Capellan Confederation. We will be used to bring the Free Worlds League to heel. We will be used to
hunt bandits and support corrupt rulers and to reinforce the evils of the Inner Sphere that drove our ancestors from it so long ago."
-- Elias Crichell

LastChanceCav

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2209
  • Repossessing the dispossessed ...
Re: First mech with AC/20 is the Victor?
« Reply #29 on: 11 August 2012, 10:34:54 »
It could be that the Lyrans originally mounted the AC20 on mechs as a refit, while the Victor was the first mech put into production with the AC20 as part of the design.

Cheers,
LCC
Last Chance Engineering - Bespoke Battlemechs for the refined gentleman.