Author Topic: Vehicle of the Week: Von Luckner Heavy Tank  (Read 19730 times)

Moonsword

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Vehicle of the Week: Von Luckner Heavy Tank
« on: 03 September 2012, 15:05:19 »
Vehicle of the Week: Von Luckner Heavy Tank

Designed in the wake of the Reunification War, the frequently brutal conflict to bring the Periphery to heel and join the rest of humanity in the glories of the Star League, whether they liked it or not, the Von Luckner's name is a curious, almost inappropriate appellation.  While Felix von Luckner was indeed the commerce raider that TRO3039 suggests he was, he did so at the helm of SMS Seeadler, one of the last wind-powered fighting vessels - an odd choice for a ground-bound tank that's much more apt to be defending convoys than raiding them.  Originally deployed as a mainstay of the SLDF and the Terran Hegemony's defensive forces, the loss of the Hartford Co. factory on Bryant led to a decline in the Von Luckner's fortunes.  Considering the tank's most prolific users, it would also have been seen on both sides of the Amaris Civil War, thrown right into the grinders, and may have been a participant in the conflicts in the Pentagon Worlds.  Many were cannibalized for parts to repair 'Mechs on top of battlefield attrition, leading to only a few remaining by 3030, with only the AFFS, DCMS, FWLM, and LCAF fielding significant numbers of the design.  Since we've never had any indication of renewed production, just refits, it seems likely that the Von Luckner is dwindling away.  The MUL reflects that - only the most recent variant is still available in any significant numbers, with even the original, long-lived VNL-K65N either extinct or nearly so.

The original, baseline VNL-K65N (covered most recently in TRO3039) was intended to be a BattleMech on treads.  I'm not really sure of that description but the tank is very, very dangerous in close quarters.  At 75 tons, it's on the line between heavy and assault vehicles,  A VOX 225 makes it slower than most 'Mechs this size but is adequate to roll alongside LRM and SRM carriers, Alacorns, or Pumas with a 54 kph flank speed.  11 tons of StarSlab/4 armor plate is arranged 41/30/30/45, somewhat heavier than the Demolisher and pretty adequate to the design's needs.  The turret is the most dangerous thing about the design with an Armstrong AC/20, two Holly SRM 6s, a Dannel SRM 4, and a Ramsey MG.  With three tons of AC/20 ammo and just one ton for each type of SRM launcher, you're short on SRM 6 rounds, but while they last, they make the Von Luckner a buzzsaw on treads.  I might have opted for a couple of MLs to use the fusion engine and get another ton of ammo for the SRM 6 but overall, you just don't want to get close to a Von Luckner.  The front bumper has a Firestorm flamer to further discourage infantry but in the tight quarters a Von Luckner wants to fight in, it's not useless against heavier foes.  Another odd decision is the placement of a Holly LRM 10 high on the tank's stern - you can fire past 9 hexes, but only if you turn your rear to the enemy.  Hartford engineers thought of it as a way to cover the retreat of other units.  Personally, I'm not sure I buy that and I don't think the SLDF did, either.

HartfordCo built two advanced models, both described in Historical: Operation KLONDIKE.  Although we don't have a record sheet for the first variant put into production (the sheet in RS Klondike is a duplicate of the Royal's), the Von Luckner (Star League) is easy enough to figure out from the description. (It's listed as the LRM variant in the PDF.)  Errata has been reported but no further information is available at this time.  The missiles, flamer, and machine gun are all removed.  A larger LRM 15 was installed facing forward and linked to an Artemis IV fire control system while a rear-mounted SL and forward SPL handle supplementary close-in weapons duties.  The SRMs were replaced by four Streak SRM 2s sharing a single ton of ammo.  11 tons of ferro-fibrous was mounted in the same configuration as the Royal, so we know what it should be - 41/40/31/45.

The Royal (listed as the LB-X) is something we do have hard numbers on.  The overall result is something like an early Zhukov, honestly.  A 225 XLFE shaves tonnage for a major improvement in weaponry, although you wind up losing some raw brute force single-hit power.  The LRM rack went back down to a 10 tube model with only a single ton of ammunition and the SPL was moved to the turret.  The real change, though, is the replacement of the Armstrong with a pair of LB 10-Xs fed by four tons of ammunition that by default is evenly split between cluster and slug.  If you can justify it, I'd seriously consider pairing some of these with an Alacorn Mk. VI lance, letting the Gauss rifles punch holes in the armor as the Von Luckners close and start peppering the enemy with cluster rounds and SRMs.

During the late Succession Wars, Houses Davion and Kurita both experimented with variant models.  Kuita's K70 is the more practical of the two.  The turret weapons other than the machine gun are replaced by a PPC, an AC/10, and an SRM 4, providing a more balanced weapons loadout that lets it fight at medium to long range for the time period.  With two tons of AC/10 ammo and a ton of SRMs, you've got an acceptable combat endurance, too.  The Davion K100 is a btute-force bruiser, plain and simple.  The armor was reduced to a lighter, more heavily front-canted load arranged 43/29/24/19.  The turret has two AC/20s fed by four tons of ammunition while an SRM 6 with one ton adds crit-seeking like some sort of forerunner to the Zhukov.

At the dawn of the FedCom Civil War, another variant emerged, one incorporating some of the technological developments in the wake of the discovery of the Helm Memory Core and the return of the children of Kerensky.  The armor was improved very slightly to 43/30/30/46 using ferro-fibrous.  The forward flamer was discarded in favor of a pair of machine guns while a forward missile rack holds a 20 tube MRM launcher with two tons of ammunition.  The turret contains an Ultra/20 autocannon, theoretically matching the K100's loadout, along with an SRM 6 and two medium lasers.  The autocannon has 25 rounds, enough for 12 rounds of double-tap fire if you're willing to run that risk, with a single ton of SRMs.  Overall, it's in about the same role doing the same job, an acceptable but not spectacular improvement, although the increase in range from the MRMs can be useful sometimes.

With most of the Von Luckners, your one and only goal is to get the enemy into the phone booth and then beat him to death.  The K65N, K75N, K100, and Star League models are all eminently well suited to the task of being a close-range brawler so suck 'em in and pound them.  Use tight terrain to keep the enemy from being able to evade you.  The Royal and K70N are a little different.  While neither one is defenseless up close, they're both capable of and in the K70N's case sometimes prefer a bit of standoff room.  Since certain variants lack forward-mounted long-range weapons (or long-range weapons at all), you may want to use that same terrain to cover the Von Luckners until they can bring their heavy weapons to bear.  One nasty trick that occurred to me was deploying Thunders from the rear-facing launcher to help shape the battlefield more to your liking and narrow the enemy's movement options.  If you have the opportunity to mix them (unlikely given normal SLDF deployment patterns but not impossible), the Royal's crit-seeking capabilities make a good complement to the others' hole-punching power.

When fighting Von Luckners, do the opposite - fight in open terrain or other conditions where you can outmaneuver them and keep out of reach of the SRMs and class 20s most of them like to bring to bear.  If you can avoid it, don't let two or more pin you at short range.  That's going to hurt and taking the K65N, with two AC/20s and 28 SRM tubes between them, a pair can shred most medium 'Mechs in short order and seriously trash a heavy.  They're decently tough although not unreasonably so, so pack in some hole-punchers, and at 3/5, they're easy to immobilize.  Other than that, there aren't really any surprises here.

References: The Master Unt List has the details on availability during the Jihad and Republic Eras as well as BatleForce stats.  CamoSpecs has a couple of pictures of the miniature to look at.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Von Luckner Heavy Tank
« Reply #1 on: 04 September 2012, 01:05:06 »
I fell in love with the Kuritan Von Luckner when I first saw the stats for it and it has not waned over time.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Von Luckner Heavy Tank
« Reply #2 on: 04 September 2012, 03:10:07 »
Agreed I like the Kuritan variant as well.  Although if 3/5 is good enough and I've got room for a heavy I usually go Demolisher.  But a lance or two of the Original make for nice closed-terrain beatsticks, and the Kuritan model is a better overall tank.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Von Luckner Heavy Tank
« Reply #3 on: 04 September 2012, 03:27:11 »
Anyone's noticed that you really only lose a couple of SRM tubes if you make an ICE variant of the K65N SW era version? Swap the front flamer for another MG, replace SRMs with 5 SRM2s (1 tons ammo).

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Von Luckner Heavy Tank
« Reply #4 on: 04 September 2012, 10:18:52 »
Anyone's noticed that you really only lose a couple of SRM tubes if you make an ICE variant of the K65N SW era version? Swap the front flamer for another MG, replace SRMs with 5 SRM2s (1 tons ammo).

One of the interesting things about the Von Luckner is it had a fusion engine that really didn't work for anyone else.  For mechs, only a 25 (99/14), 45 (5/8) or 75 (3/5) tonner could even use the thing and there were no canon models in the SW that matched any of those profiles.  It may be one reason why we haven't seen a ICE version of this tank.  There was never any pressing need to strip the fusion engines from these units and as long as you could cannibalize broken down units you could keep the ones you have running. 

Of course that uniqueness can work against it to.  Supplies of this engine would be rather limited.  And it would be unlikely to find the required engine as battlefield salvage. 

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Von Luckner Heavy Tank
« Reply #5 on: 04 September 2012, 11:18:00 »
The Hammerhands (all variants), Helepolis -2H and -3H, Stalker -4P, Blackjack -1X, Cobra -02, Eisenfaust -4J, Hollander II (all variants), Kyudo -02 and -03, Quasit (all variants), Vindicator -1AA, Dart (all variants), and Mongoose -86 all use a 225 rated SFE.  Granted, most of those variants post-date the Succession Wars, but the Vindicator, Hammerhands, Helepolis, Stalker, and Blackjack most certainly do not.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Von Luckner Heavy Tank
« Reply #6 on: 04 September 2012, 11:38:55 »
The Hammerhands (all variants), Helepolis -2H and -3H, Stalker -4P, Blackjack -1X, Cobra -02, Eisenfaust -4J, Hollander II (all variants), Kyudo -02 and -03, Quasit (all variants), Vindicator -1AA, Dart (all variants), and Mongoose -86 all use a 225 rated SFE.  Granted, most of those variants post-date the Succession Wars, but the Vindicator, Hammerhands, Helepolis, Stalker, and Blackjack most certainly do not.

According to the MUL which is supposed to be the last word in canon, the only mech available in the early or late succession war period are the Mongoose (25), Commando (25), Blackjack (45), Hatchetman (45), Phoenix Hawk (45), Stag (45), Vindicator (45), Wyvern (45), Black Knight (75), Flashman (75), Marauder (75), Orion (75) and the Stalker -4P (75).

Out of all of those the only one using a 225 would be the Stalker -4P which IIRC was a field refit and retconned to boot.  None of those other units existed during the time frame when the Successor States were stripping vehicle fusion engines to keep mechs running. 

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Von Luckner Heavy Tank
« Reply #7 on: 04 September 2012, 11:53:12 »
The VND-1AA most certainly did.  Theoretically, there could have been Hammerhands, Helepolis, Kyudo, and Quasit chassis still floating around here and there.  The Quasit never stopped being manufactured, IIRC.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Von Luckner Heavy Tank
« Reply #8 on: 04 September 2012, 12:01:18 »
The Vindicator VND-1AA "Avenging Angel" was very much in use during the time, and uses a 225 engine.  The Hammerhands was introduced in 2475, the Helepolis in 2488, the Blackjack -1X in 2769, and Stalker -4P in 2998.  At the very least, the Vindicator -1AA, Blackjack -1X, and Stalker -4P were all available during the Succession Wars, and it's not a huge stretch to say that the Hammerhands and Helepolis were still around.

That said, the MUL doesn't say diddly about availability during the Successsion Wars or Age of War or Star League.  For anything.  The only faction availability data is for the Jihad and the Republic.

Also worth noting that the Stalker -4P is listed as 75 tons on the MUL, and available in the Jihad and Republic eras to just about everybody in the Sphere.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Von Luckner Heavy Tank
« Reply #9 on: 04 September 2012, 12:25:30 »
The Vindicator VND-1AA "Avenging Angel" was very much in use during the time, and uses a 225 engine.  The Hammerhands was introduced in 2475, the Helepolis in 2488, the Blackjack -1X in 2769, and Stalker -4P in 2998.  At the very least, the Vindicator -1AA, Blackjack -1X, and Stalker -4P were all available during the Succession Wars, and it's not a huge stretch to say that the Hammerhands and Helepolis were still around.

That said, the MUL doesn't say diddly about availability during the Successsion Wars or Age of War or Star League.  For anything.  The only faction availability data is for the Jihad and the Republic.

Also worth noting that the Stalker -4P is listed as 75 tons on the MUL, and available in the Jihad and Republic eras to just about everybody in the Sphere.

What does the jihad era have to do with the Succession Wars?  If you want to have a discussion at least make sense. 

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Von Luckner Heavy Tank
« Reply #10 on: 04 September 2012, 12:40:52 »
That's exactly my point.  The MUL only lists availability in the Jihad and later.  It says nothing about the Succession Wars availability of a given design.

The specific mention of the Stalker -4P was in direct response to your supposition that it was retconned.  Obviously, it was not, since it appears on the Master Unit List, the "last word in canon".
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Von Luckner Heavy Tank
« Reply #11 on: 04 September 2012, 15:14:05 »
None of those other units existed during the time frame when the Successor States were stripping vehicle fusion engines to keep mechs running.
You know... it is possible to use that 225 engine to replace another engine which is something else. Of course if 225 rated engine is put on a Warhammer, then that Warhammer moves slower (walk 3) and has some dead-weight becouse engine isn't perfect fit for Warhammer's mass. No such problem with 75 ton 'Mechs which only move slower (walk 3). Of course new VOX 280 would be best choice for Warhammer, but if choices are getting Warhammer moving with inefficient engine and not moving at all...
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Von Luckner Heavy Tank
« Reply #12 on: 04 September 2012, 15:44:04 »
I've always wondered if using a nonstandard sized engine would make a mech move at some rate slightly above or below the normal, but the game just isn't granular enough for us to see it.  Example: would putting a 350 in an Atlas allow it to walk at 37.8 km/h rather than the normal 32.4?
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Von Luckner Heavy Tank
« Reply #13 on: 04 September 2012, 20:26:20 »
Aside form whole engines, I'd also imagine that Von Luckners were also scavenged for engine parts. With many Fusion engine components in short supply in the late 3SW, I'd imagine that many fusion-powered Tanks ended up as parts donors, in much the same way that IndustrialMechs wound up as part donors for Myomers and actuatiors.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Von Luckner Heavy Tank
« Reply #14 on: 05 September 2012, 07:52:31 »
I've always wondered if using a nonstandard sized engine would make a mech move at some rate slightly above or below the normal, but the game just isn't granular enough for us to see it.  Example: would putting a 350 in an Atlas allow it to walk at 37.8 km/h rather than the normal 32.4?

When the issue arose in our group some time back, we resolved that on-board performance was not affected, but that overland movement was.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Von Luckner Heavy Tank
« Reply #15 on: 05 September 2012, 08:50:23 »
We used to round walking speed down, but calculate running speed off the "real" walking speed (.5 rounds up). E.g. a 50-tonner with a 225 engine moves 4/7.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Von Luckner Heavy Tank
« Reply #16 on: 06 September 2012, 02:00:34 »
I like to use tanks like the Von Luckner in conjunction with lances made up of mostly brawler mechs.

While the mechs charge in, the Von Luckner does the same, but since it's pretty slow it usually gets left behind a bit.

This puts it in a good position to deter lighter mechs from circling around behind my mechs for the back shot.  It also generally keeps it out of most of the fire, preventing it from becoming a short-range bunker.

To me, that's always the biggest issue i have with tanks that have mostly short range weapons.  By the time they close to effective range, somebody gets some shots in on a side table and motive crits turn it into a bunker.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Von Luckner Heavy Tank
« Reply #17 on: 06 September 2012, 12:28:02 »
That's exactly my point.  The MUL only lists availability in the Jihad and later.  It says nothing about the Succession Wars availability of a given design.

The specific mention of the Stalker -4P was in direct response to your supposition that it was retconned.  Obviously, it was not, since it appears on the Master Unit List, the "last word in canon".
Hell, the Stalker-lite appeared in TRO 3025 and the first RS books.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Von Luckner Heavy Tank
« Reply #18 on: 06 September 2012, 12:51:45 »

Yep. Pg. 116 of my old TRO 3025. No retcon there.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Von Luckner Heavy Tank
« Reply #19 on: 16 September 2012, 15:50:15 »
I've had a good healthy love/fear/respect for this tank since the first one i went against way back in the late 80's. Me in my tricked out battlemaster and this upstart in a tank. Well that upstart tank that was way beneath my mighty battlemaster kicked my ass and ripped off my right arm. Ever since then i make people suffer my own indignation with this monster.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Von Luckner Heavy Tank
« Reply #20 on: 16 September 2012, 17:59:27 »
It's actually rather weird that this tank fell out of production, the only intro level fusion powered vee's heavier then it are the schrek and Puma and post 3003 the Devastator, so there should have been a lot of demand for it

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Von Luckner Heavy Tank
« Reply #21 on: 16 September 2012, 18:03:19 »
It's the fusion power plant. I'm sure that engine was stripped out and put in mechs. Especially knowing how mad max the 3-4th SW's were.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Von Luckner Heavy Tank
« Reply #22 on: 16 September 2012, 19:11:10 »
One of the first games I ever played I had four Von Luckners to face off against two Clan Mechs, two Novas if I remember correctly. The poor Clanners were shredded once I got into the sweet spot for range. Now whenever I need tanks, its almost a given at least one Von Luckner will be on the table.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Von Luckner Heavy Tank
« Reply #23 on: 16 September 2012, 19:47:18 »
It's the fusion power plant. I'm sure that engine was stripped out and put in mechs. Especially knowing how mad max the 3-4th SW's were.
What 'Mechs? is the question but, the Von Luckner is the only unit in 3025 to use a 225 and it doesn't look to be a popular engine on Sarna, a quick look only seems to show the Sabre ASF being the only other unit using that engine size in the era and I think people are more likely to be pulling the engine out of wrecked fighters to repair tanks

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Von Luckner Heavy Tank
« Reply #24 on: 16 September 2012, 20:12:11 »
Parts are parts. There was a lot of jurry rigging. You could put it in any 75 ton mech for sure.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Von Luckner Heavy Tank
« Reply #25 on: 16 September 2012, 20:14:33 »
Or power a town.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Von Luckner Heavy Tank
« Reply #26 on: 16 September 2012, 20:28:45 »
Nothing says you can't put a 225 in a mech that needs a 200 (for example).  Wastes a little weight sure, but you can shoehorn it in.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Von Luckner Heavy Tank
« Reply #27 on: 16 September 2012, 21:06:07 »
What 'Mechs? is the question but, the Von Luckner is the only unit in 3025 to use a 225 and it doesn't look to be a popular engine on Sarna, a quick look only seems to show the Sabre ASF being the only other unit using that engine size in the era and I think people are more likely to be pulling the engine out of wrecked fighters to repair tanks

Please read the rest of the first page of this thread for a discussion about how this is absolutely wrong.  There are plenty of units that use a 225 fusion.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Von Luckner Heavy Tank
« Reply #28 on: 17 September 2012, 08:27:54 »
According to the MUL which is supposed to be the last word in canon,

Just noting, this is entirely not true.  Herb is the last word in canon.   
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Von Luckner Heavy Tank
« Reply #29 on: 17 September 2012, 10:34:41 »
Also the first. And sixty-fifth. But not the thirty-ninth.
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