Author Topic: (Answered) Abstract Aerospace  (Read 3986 times)

Kommando

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(Answered) Abstract Aerospace
« on: 22 November 2012, 03:07:46 »
Cambo and I are playing a large 18,500BV game of Total Chaos track Binge, Purge, Flush and decided to use the Abstract Aerospace rules.
He is using a Ghost Bear force, planning on testing the Kirghiz C elemental drop. I'm playing the Wobbies.

We have played for two and a half days and managed to get to turn 7, encountering numerous rule blocks in the way. He posted a question http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,24534.0.html over in the Aerospace forum but didnt get a response.
Xotl answered a few questions over at the SA forums and Jellico answered more by email.

I ask the skylords for assistance with our game.

Abstract Aerospace system is on page 18 to 21 of Strategic Operations
  • What is the modified to-hit number from a ground unit firing on a Striking Aerospace using Abstract Aero rules: Base + unit move + range ? Surely there is a movement mod in there somewhere, the Aero is going very fast. Where do the hits get rolled? Front? Bottom? Rear?
    p19 SO, p107, p110, p237/p307 TW (attack modifiers table) & p311-312 TW (aerospace tables)
     
  • Can an abstracted aero use evasive manoeuvres like Split S and Immelman to increase their ground aggressors to-hit numbers?
    p84-85 TW
     
  • How does one drop BA from a Khirgitz C?
    Xotl mentioned BA Parafoils in a Tac Ops errata.
    p89, p225 TW, p348-349 TO, p21-23 SO
     
  • When dogfighting over the ground mapsheets on the Abstracted aerospace table and a unit gets shot down, does it require a random crash sequence outlined in P81-83 TW or does it just explode and shower the battlefied with wreckage? Where does the pilot eject to?
    p81-83, p249 TW, p19 SO
     
  • Abstracted aerospace rules make it really easy for dogfighting aero to hit each other. Base + range + angle of attack makes for very easy to hit numbers. Is this right?
    p21 SO, p241 TW (assuming the ground map is NOE dogfighting over the ground map is +2 to hit)
     
  • TW has rules for ground units shooting aero making a strafing attack, but not so for a Strike. If an aero is striking a units back, can the unit fire on the aero's rear as it passes over it at X range?
    p237, p243-245, p247-248 TW
     
  • Are aero who are performing ground attacks on the Abstracted aerospace sheet, operating under Aerospace on Ground mapsheets rules? Where is Altitude 1 NOE? The inner ring?
    p80-81, p91, p249 (damage to aero units in atmosphere) TW, p19 SO
     
  • At what point does Elevation become Altitude?
    TW p. 43 states they are different things. But aero have ranges for weapons in hexes, operating on the ground sheet these are multiplied by 16 so an aero SRM reaches 96 hexes, but it states you add +2 hex range for each level of Altitude when firing on them from the ground.
    p43, p91, p107 TW, aerospace record sheets
     
  • Can an abstracted aero go out of control? Eg, from a critical hit causing a control roll?
    p92-93, p249 TW
     
  • What happens when an abstracted aero goes out of control? Does it automatically lose the next positioning roll? Does it undergo random movement on the radar map? Does it lose 1d6 Altitudes and crash?
    p92-93 TW, p23 SO
     
  • If one players aerospace is coming into the ground map to Strike, and the other players aero moves to the ground map to intercept it and prevent it Striking. Can the first ignore the dogfight and continue the Strike, risking being shot? If the first wins the control roll and decides range, can he decide to be out of range and Strike? If the second fails the control roll, does he fail to intercept and the dogfight doesnt happen?

    If not and an aggressor always prevents a ground attack by being over the ground map, this leads to the aerospace occupying the ground and inner rings the entire game while they vy for air superiority.

    Say a Swift intercepts an Ironside, the Swift will always win positioning (because it is assumed to always be at maximum safe thrust which is at least double the Ironsides safe thrust), and can elect to engage at long range. As neither have long range weapons, neither can shoot at each other and the Ironside can never ground attack. This seems exploitable.
    p23 SO, p236, p242-247 TW
     
  • Do aero roll for number of missiles or do they apply average damage to an enemy aero? Found it on p236 Weapons and Equipment - Cluster Weapons.
    Do the damage numbers for S, M and L range ever change on the Record Sheets?
    p236-238 TW, aerospace record sheets
     
  • If playing abstracted aerospace, can an aero overheat by firing weapons and what are the consequences if it does. Refer 10.
    p161 TW
     
  • Regarding VTOL carrying BA. At what elevation can a bipedal BA dismount a VTOL without requiring Jump MP (its still carrying a discardable missile pack, or doesnt have them) considering they can dismount an omni which is 2 elevations high? In our games we're assuming the VTOL has truck winches or similar to let a BA fastrope down from elevation 2.
    p225, p227, p99 TW
     
  • Following from 3. and 14. Can BA being delivered by air, at the appropriate elevation 2, land on a mech? an enemy mech? Swarm?
     

And a suggestion:
Something that would benefit Strat Ops Abstract aero rules is a flowchart. Several times we got caught up in the wording of Tailing in positioning, and tailing in breaking combat.

« Last Edit: 11 January 2013, 04:13:47 by Xotl »
What avarice!

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Moonsword

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Re: Abstract Aerospace. Several Questions.
« Reply #1 on: 22 November 2012, 07:32:01 »
Please provide page references per the stickied rules thread.

3) please write clearly and to the point, and provide page number references to any relevant section.  If you don't, your question may be ignored and will eventually be deleted.

Kommando

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Re: Abstract Aerospace. Several Questions.
« Reply #2 on: 22 November 2012, 23:35:14 »
Very well, let me compile a list.
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Xotl

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Re: (Research) Abstract Aerospace. Several Questions.
« Reply #3 on: 30 December 2012, 22:48:11 »
1 - NO, the aerospace unit recieves NO movement modifier.  While it is true that an aerospace fighter is moving very quickly, it is also moving along a much straighter path with no ground clutter interference.  The to-hit number against an aircraft using the abstract aerospace rules is calculated as the following:
Gunnery+Attacker Movement Modifier+Angle of Attack+Range Modifier(distance to hex 0909+target altitudex2; or just altitudex2 if the target is also attacking the firer)

2 - Aerospace units using the Abstract aerospace rules may expend thrust points on Evasive action (TW p.77).  Split S, Immelman, and other special maneuvers do not increase to hit numbers against any attacker, and therefore have no effect in abstract aerospace movement (unless you just want to burn thrust points and chance crashing into the ground, which isn't very desirable).  Angle of attack should be front (+1) if the ground unit is returning fire against an attacking aircraft, and determined by the firer's orientation to hex 0909 and the aerospace fighter's heading in all other cases.

3 - I'd assume this follows all the standard rules for a DropShip or Small Craft dropping battle armor.

4 - Yes, a crash would be determined as normal following the rules in Total Warfare.  Per StratOps pg.26, a pilot that ejects in an atmosphere appears in the same hex as the destroyed unit with velocity 0 and will drift to the ground following the same rules for dropping troops.

5 - Yes.  It is essentially the same as with the full aerospace rules.

6 - The rules for ground units firing at aerospace units can be found throughout the combat section of total warfare, including pages 107 & pg110.  The example of returning fire against a strafing unit found in the aerospace section should not be misconstrued as a prohibition on returning fire against aerospace units performing a strike or bombing attack.
"if the attacker also suffered an attack this turn by the targeted aerospace unit (meaning if the attack has been announced, even if it has yet to be resolved), the range to the target is considered 0 hexes."

Now I don't know that this is spelled out anywhere as range 0 (same hex) attacks tend to be unclear on the firing arc rules, but I've always allowed players that get attacked from behind by an aerospace fighter to return the favor and shoot the aerospace fighter with their front arc weapons on the fighter's back as it flies over.

7 - No.  The Aerospace on Ground mapsheet rules are a distinct ruleset from the abstracted aerospace rules.  "Altitude 1 NOE" refers to having only one altitude of height.  pg.19 StratOps indicates that players begin the scenario choosing an altitude between 1 & 10.  Players may then spend movement points to raise or lower their altitude by 1.  Keep in mind, however, that one cannot initiate a ground attack other than level bombing from an altitude higher than 5.

8 - Elevation and Altitude are completely separate systems with no direct correlation.  While elevation is based upon a fixed measurement (6 meters), altitudes vary widely based upon the depth of a planet's atmosphere and other factors.

9 & 10 - Yes.  Out of control units in an atmosphere lose 1D6 altitudes immediately.  If this reduces the altitude of the fighter to 0 or less, the unit is destroyed (crashes).  Out of control is not the same as random movement (TW p93).

11 -
a. - Yes, the first can still attempt a strike.
b. - Yes, he can opt to be out of range and still strike.  This represents the pilot pulling a tricky maneuver that allows him to come back over the target but forces the interceptor to overshoot him.
c. - If the second fails the control roll, the result would be treated as normal: if the ground-attacking unit makes their control roll, they may select the range.  If they also fail, the distance would be long.

12 - No, they deal the average value listed for aerospace units.

13 - Yes, aerospace fighters using the abstract rules may overheat, with the normal penalties.

14. - Rules for zip lines may be found in TacOps, otherwise they must be at level 1.  Battle Armor dismounting a BattleMech without jump jets climb down.  They do not leap from the 'Mechs shoulders.

15. - No, no, and no.
3028-3057 Random Assignment Tables -
Also contains faction deployment & rarity info.

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=1219.0

Kommando

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Re: (Answered) Abstract Aerospace. Several Questions.
« Reply #4 on: 31 December 2012, 22:56:38 »
Some of these answers just raise more questions.

3. I suspect you are referring to the BattleArmour Dropchute on TO 349 as the "Parafoils" that were missed from Tac Ops. However, Dropships and Small craft have bay doors from which to jump out of, Aerospace like the Khirgitz do not. Do BA jump out the bomb bays? Is this treated like an altitude bombing run with scatter?

4. So this means the pilot always ejects into hex 0909?

6. Perhaps that should be published that units hit on the rear from an aero strike can fire on the aeros rear at range 0. This comes up quite a lot in abstract aero as you can move about anywhere in the inner ring to line up a back shot on units most times.

7. With abstracted aero do you still nominate an Altitude to be playing on? Does it really matter if you can only move one or two quadrants of the radar map per turn? If players are assumed to be playing at Altitude 5, so they can still ground strike, but reduce the risk of crashing when they fail a control roll to 1 in 6, what happens when an abstracted aero goes out of control, loses 1-5 altitudes but recovers. Do they have to expend abstracted MP to return to altitude 5? What could possibly be the benefit of leaving these rules in?

8. Low altitude table on pp 81 TW states NOE Alt 1 is 1-50m which is Elevation 1-8ish (assuming your stated elevation is equal to 6m).

9&10.  Crits cause crashes, cool.

but
Quote
Random Movement

When a Control Roll fails by a margin of 5 or more points, or when indicated by critical hits or heat ef  ects, a unit might
suffer random movement in its next Movement Phase. For each point of velocity, roll 1D6 instead of moving the unit
forward and compare the result to the Random Movement Table, carrying out the indicated movement. This movement
occurs regardless of what type of unit is out of control, or whether the unit is operating on the space map, high-altitude
map or low-altitude map. Out of Control aerospace units using the Aerospace Units on Ground Mapsheets rules, see p.
91, multiply the distances moved by 8 hexes and roll twice per velocity point. Repeat this process until all points of velocity
have been used.
pp 93 TW

As Abstract aero use normal aero combat rules they can suffer the same effects from combat as regular aero like random movement. Or are we using a simplified damage model that ignores random movement and control roll crits that cause them?

Weapon overheating can also cause random movement. Which is allowed by Question 13's answer. What then?

11. Excellent, this is exactly what I was hoping for. :)
However these options need to be published or errata'd

13. Penalties for Overheating and overthrusting can cause random movement. Abstract aero have no rules regarding these penalties. Refer question 9/10.

14. pp219 TO for BA Ziplines. ****** yeah!
The inspecificity of these rules in Tac Ops means they cost nothing, can be fitted to all VTOLS with cargo or infantry bays and can deploy units from any elevation. So long as the pass the ejection rules.

15. :( Figured as much.
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Xotl

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Re: (Updated) Abstract Aerospace. More Questions!
« Reply #5 on: 11 January 2013, 04:13:31 »
1 - APCs don't have bay doors either.  infantry/battle armor would exit a fighter via the same method.  Bay doors are only required by DropShips, Small Craft, and other large units.
4 - Yes
6 - Ground return fire against an attacking Aerospace unit is range 0 (same hex), so yes, it should probably be specified that a unit can always use their front arc weapons as a special exception.
7 - Yes, you nominate an altitude.  This remains important for determining range for ground to air fire, determining what air to ground attacks are possible, and crashes.  StratOps explains the methods by which you may change altitude using abstract movement.
9-10 & 13 - There is now errata that indicates that there is no random movement in abstract aerospace, and that when the rules call for random movement the aircraft goes out of control instead.
11 - Dog fight rolls only determine the aircraft's range and angle of attack to the other aircraft involved.  The rules do not indicate that they prevent or supercede any other possible attacks or distances to other targets.
3028-3057 Random Assignment Tables -
Also contains faction deployment & rarity info.

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=1219.0