Author Topic: Vehicle of the Week Update: Demon  (Read 6407 times)

Moonsword

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Vehicle of the Week Update: Demon
« on: 06 March 2011, 20:56:46 »
Vehicle of the Week Update: Demon

(This was originally reposted by request in this thread.)

I've covered the Demon Medium Tank, mentioning its Star League eponym several times.  While looking through the vehicles to decide on this week's article, I discovered that the original article had fallen badly out of date, lacking updated information from TRO3050U as well as the Royal Demon from TRO3075.  So, it's time for an update.  UPDATE: And now we're back again to incorporate the new experimental model from XTRO: ComStar.

The Demon originally came to us out of TRO2750, the first book to suggest advanced Star League technologies although the use of this equipment was sometimes eccentric compared to designs closer to the modern aesthetic (such as the Royals, which generally restrict themselves to Star League hardware but use it in modern ways).  Since republished in TRO3050U with a Royal variant offered by TRO3075, the Demon's historical origins are fairly recent.  Introduced in 2716 and a product of Leopard Armor on Terra, the Demon was still relatively new compared to old hands in the SLDF like the Archer or Warhammer but it was still plentiful enough to wind up as the standard fighting vehicle of the Defense Force.  It endured in the ComStar armories to wind up as one of their standard vehicles as well, common enough to the point that any engagement involving the ComGuards or the Word of Blake usually involves at least one Demon and usually more than one.  A very normal tactic was to use them in pairs as ambushers (probably what lead to the Star League-era variants known as the Horned Demons), although ComStar preferred to operate them in groups of at least three after Tukayyid due to the power of Clan weapons.  After the Word of Blake takeover of Earth, the old Leopard Armor plant was apparently reopened and put to work while ComStar set up their own work sites with a new variant and, as I mentioned in the Demon Medium Tank article, every militia in the Word of Blake Protectorate had at least a level III of Demons (a battalion in House terms), probably the older standard model.  In 3075, an HTE Marketing and Research document that had been acquired by Chandraeskar Kurita, the Dragon's most ironic son, was released that included details on the Royal Regiments' own model of this tank.

The basic Demon of the Star League Defense Force has a couple of weak points but, overall, I can see why they were so fond of it.  The chassis is wheeled, one of the major gripes of many posters last time around, although it saves 2.5 tons compared to the Manticore due to the suspension factor.  (For those unfamiliar with the combat vehicle construction rules, suspension factor is the amount of 'engine rating' reduction for a given motive type and tonnage.  Hovers, VTOLs, and WiGEs all have even more which is why these units get so many more MPs off of an engine than a tracked vehicle does.)  Tracks have none while wheeled vehicles have a universal 20.  Power was provided by a DAV 220 standard fusion engine, giving the Demon a very typical 4/6 movement curve with a flank speed of 64 kph in open terrain.  The armor is comparable to units like the Manticore or Po, with ten tons, although CASE increases survivability in the event of an ammo or weapon explosion.  With a layout of 50/30/20/30, it's clear which end is supposed to be pointed at the enemy!  This raises the interesting question of whether the ambush tactics or the 'final' armor layout emerged first, although considering the increased vulnerability of the sides to motive crits, encouraging crews to do as much of their fighting with the front armor makes sense.  Since we've so far saved 3 tons compared to the Manticore (2.5 on the engine and 1 on armor, allocating 0.5 tons back out for CASE), where's the rest?  The fun stuff, of course, the weapons!  The Demon is one of the only three Gauss rifle units in TRO2750, with one in the turret, and along with the Fury and the Highlander, set the standard for Gauss ammunition at 16 rounds.  The front was graced with an SRM 6 for crit-seeking after the armor has been cratered (with two tons of ammunition) while the sides each have a medium laser to help deal with units that flank the Demon.  Remember the time period, too.  Today, we're kind of resigned to the power and range of the Gauss rifle but back in 1989, this was a shocking, even horrifying weapon compared to the equipment of the Succession Wars.  Even today, you can redeem a lot of evils with a Gauss rifle and, with fairly solid armor and reasonable mobility, I'm content with this as a "wheeled MBT", particularly given the emphasis you really should put on protecting your side arcs anyway.  That said, this model (and really every Demon) is probably going to be more effective hunting 'Mechs than vehicles.  A ton of Inferno or fragmentation rounds for the SRM launcher probably wouldn't be a bad idea, either, since they're the only efficient way to kill infantry on a Demon other than killing them in their metal boxes.

Two different attempts were made to produce a more supply independent version of the Demon, both termed the Horned Demon.  The first is actually pretty impressive in my book although it wasn't well received in the field.  All of the secondary weapons were removed along with CASE.  First, they added another ton of Gauss rifle ammo, then planted four medium lasers on the front.  The remaining half-ton from the CASE removal was used to buff the armor a bit to 52/31/22/32.  I rather approve of this one.  A second went ahead and pulled the Gauss rifle, too, replacing everything with two PPCs in the turret and replacing the CASE with a half-ton of cargo.  Armor dropped to 48/28/19/29.  Notable mainly for the fact that a pair in the hands of the Terran resistance managed to take a shot at the motorcade of Stefan Amaris and would have killed him if he hadn't decided to climb into a 'Mech at the last minute, this one isn't as impressive by my standards since it loses both the hefty 15 point hit of the Gauss rifle (and some of its range) and all ability to deal with a knife fight.

At some point in the 28th century, the Star League Defense Force also commissioned a special model of the Demon for the Royal Regiments.  The biggest change is the replacement of the engine with a 280-rated extra-light model for a top speed of 86 kph, increasing mobility somewhat.  The Gauss rifle was wisely left alone but the missiles and lasers both received upgrades.  The lasers were replaced by pulse models, increasing the Demon's ability to deal with fast flankers, and the missile launcher became a trio of Streak SRM 2s fed by a single ton of ammo.  Those wondering why it lacks a 6-tube model should remember those weren't available in the Inner Sphere until after the Clans came home for summer vacation Operation REVIVAL.  It's unclear whether or not this model has CASE - without it, it's a half-ton underweight and the change isn't listed in the TRO, but it's not listed on the record sheet.  (Errata was repoted when the article was originally posted.)  With the speed increase, I'll take what I can get, though.

The final production model to date is, judging from the way things are phrased in TRO3050U (which was written by Wolfnet IC), a Blakist model from 3070 or 3071.  It's also the real departure from the norm as people kind of expect out of Blakist units from TRO3050U.  The engine was replaced by a 220-rated extra-light model, saving tonnage without increasing speed the way the Royal Demon does.  The armor is a much lighter coat of heavy ferro-fibrous that was knocked down to a mere 138 points, although the armor across the body of the vehicle was buffed by 2 points all around.  The Gauss rifle and the turret holding it are both gone, replaced by a heavy Gauss rifle fed by three tons of ammunition for a 12 round endurance.  The biggest of the big guns, it's definitely going to leave a mark, but as a sniper, the HGR leaves something to be desired, and it doesn't fit into the role of close-in weapon very comfortably either.  The lasers were upgraded to ERMLs.  The missile launcher, reminiscent of the Royal, is now a Streak system but keeps them all consolidated into one launcher.  As an ambush predator, the crews need to pick their moments carefully and with an eye toward the 'sweet spot' of their range bracket - 5 to 6 hexes, where the missiles are at medium range and the HGR is at short with no minimum range penalty.  CASE was left in place.  Finally, two pieces of shiny electronics were added.  The first is a C3i computer that was the source of some of my ambivalence about the heavy Gauss rifle up above.  (Remember that weapon damage, whether for an HGR or a snubnose PPC, is calculated from the actual range of the firing unit, per TW page 131.)  The second is an improved targeting computer, which helps fight some of the range penalties for the HGR and makes those side lasers a little more useful for kicking off flankers.

Whether it was an independent development or not - it's suggested in XTRO: ComStar that ComStar had been looking at the idea since 3065, predating the HGR Demon's introduction - the prototype Demon CX-2 is similar in overall design to the HGR variant.  The devil is very much in the details.  A 220-rated light fusion engine reduces the tonnage dedicated to propulsion while 10 tons of reactive armor  arranged in the original 50/30/20/30 layout reduces damage from missiles, artillery, and mortars.  On the other hand, there's that ever-present risk of accidentally having all the armor on a facing come off, so I'm not entirely convinced blazer armor is really worth it.  The real attraction is the improved heavy Gauss rifle fed by five tons of ammunition.  The side sponsons each carry the same Intek medium laser as the old Star League models.  Finally, there's four mine dispensers, apparently intended to enable it to make the ambush strategy ComStar pursued, based on the SLDF's doctrine, more effective.  I'm going to repeat the suggestion that the medium lasers should have been moved to the turret if they were going to keep it but as far as what ComStar was going for, it's an effective enough implementation.

Using the Demon is a matter of pointing the nose at the enemy and keeping him there.  The Gauss rifle has a large range to play with while up close the SRMs (or nose-mounted lasers in the original Horned Demon) only add to the pain.  The PPC model needs to avoid getting quite so close and behaves a bit like the HGR variant in that regard, although unlike that one, it still has the turret.  Given the less than salubrious impact of the side critical tables on vehicle mobility and the increased vulnerability to said crits that wheeled units have, all the Demons need to put an emphasis on keeping people out of those arcs - the nose armor is a strong hint on how it's supposed to be used, so follow it.  Those lasers are discouragement to anyone who decides to get cute, not something that makes it a good idea to expose them willy-nilly.  As a wheeled unit, it lacks the ability to go into rubble or light woods, the former a significant handicap in the urban ambush business.  Last, don't use Demons alone, particularly against tanks.  Bring them some friends with somewhat different options, especially a friend or two that can get right in someone's teeth and let the Demons maneuver to keep their minimum range clear.  Units with LB 10-Xs are good.  Given the thickness of the forward armor, the Demon can play bunker if it can get into a position that makes it difficult to get to the sides.

Fighting against Demons depends a bit on the model, but the first thing you want to try and do is get a shot at the sides or the rear.  This has either a greater chance of inflicting motive system damage or a shot at the weakest armor on the tank.  Next, make sure you know which one you're dealing with.  The various main guns have different implications and a Royal is much more able to both generate higher TMMs and just move around for advantage.  Against the HGR model, either try to get out of its forward arc or avoid getting 13 hexes or closer to cut the damage down, although neither one is necessarily easy depending on the situation.  Against the HGR or PPC model, you can also consider just getting right in the tank's face to force the range minimums down the enemy's throat.  The Gauss models are a little more able to keep that sort of thing under control thanks to the weapon's shorter minimum range, although it still would prefer a bit of a buffer.  Against none of them do you want to just charge into a prepared firing position - Demons aren't the most heavily armed things in the world but they've got enough firepower that, en masse, they can lay down a seriously painful volume of fire and none of them have a light weapon for a main gun.

Image Reference: The MUL database has the artwork, availability, and BV.  One little surprise is that the Word is using the Royals.  While there were no miniatures on CamoSpec, Iron Wind Metals does produce one.

Reference Update: The MUL link has been updated, as has the MUL with the BattleForce stats, but the real bonus here is Cyttorak's new miniature on CamoSpecs in the colors of the 1st Tyr.
« Last Edit: 28 February 2012, 17:24:00 by Moonsword »

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Repost: Vehicle of the Week Update: Demon
« Reply #1 on: 06 March 2011, 22:38:53 »
Thanks.
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Ceorl

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Re: Repost: Vehicle of the Week Update: Demon
« Reply #2 on: 18 March 2011, 18:08:16 »
I'm playing a campaign as Niops with access to both stock and Royal Demons so this was an interesting read.  I'm alittle more aggressive than you are, relying on the turret at the expense of pointing front, particullarly with the Royal if I can get a +2 walking modifier.  But there is no denying it's better to take shots with the front armor than elsewhere.

Moonsword

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Re: Repost: Vehicle of the Week Update: Demon
« Reply #3 on: 18 March 2011, 19:31:59 »
The risks to be aware of are that the sides are the area most likely to get motive damage while the rear is easier to punch through.  You're never going to be able to completely dictate angles the but the thicker armor and lesser chance of motive damage are a powerful reason to keep the front pointed at the other guy when you can.

Ceorl

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Re: Repost: Vehicle of the Week Update: Demon
« Reply #4 on: 18 March 2011, 21:19:21 »
In a tech 2 environment where you almost always face LBX getting a front armor facing is something of a moot point, not to mention SRMs, LRMs, or any other spread weapon, because one of those shots is going to hit the side or rear armor.  I'd either rather trust in a better to-hit modifier or concentrate on landing my return shot when I've got an easily disabled gauss platform.

Terrain, mech composition, and what exactly can shoot at the Demon that turn need to be factored in.  But vehs are so crit prone even with "veh effectiveness" rules that the only tank I worry about getting forward faced, in order to avoid potential movement penalities at the expense of to-hit rolls, is hovertanks or units with a large # of FR mounted weapons. 

My attitude toward the Demon is to lure opponents into closer range in the hope of that crit roll and then blow them away with a Gauss round.  Otherwise, if I want to protect my Demon, I don't int sink it. 

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Re: Repost: Vehicle of the Week Update: Demon
« Reply #5 on: 19 March 2011, 00:58:35 »
In a tech 2 environment where you almost always face LBX getting a front armor facing is something of a moot point, not to mention SRMs, LRMs, or any other spread weapon, because one of those shots is going to hit the side or rear armor.

Don't forget that the modifiers to the motive damage table are based on fire direction, not armor location struck. So if an LB-X shot from the front lands a pellet in the side armor, the motive damage roll would not be modified for a side shot. You won't be preventing the motive rolls entirely, but you are greatly reducing the odds of crippling damage from any given roll, keeping your tank mobile that much longer. And with a wheeled chassis, the Demon needs all the motive protection it can get.
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Ceorl

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Re: Repost: Vehicle of the Week Update: Demon
« Reply #6 on: 19 March 2011, 10:58:30 »
Good point, but I do think the best way to protect tanks is to simply move them last.  Units based principally around a Gauss Rifle, and let’s be honest no one uses a Demon for its SRMs or MLs, should be as concerned with getting a good shot off as much as preservation; again based on the totality of the circumstances.  That low to-hit 15 point shot is as much a, if not better than, deterrent as frontal armor. 

Ian Sharpe

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Re: Repost: Vehicle of the Week Update: Demon
« Reply #7 on: 19 March 2011, 11:23:17 »
I've always wanted to like the Demon.  I like gauss rifles.  It looks alright, reminding me a bit of the APC from Aliens.  But I don't like wheels on direct fire vehicles.  I find them more acceptable on Strikers, Pilums, things of that nature.  I suppose I'd probably use them as a backstop, shuffling them to any point that needed some firepower, but positioned behind the tracks, which can take incoming fire better.  I could see the Demon doing well in the firefighter role, esp if there's a road close by, allowing them to rapidly reposition as needed.

Moonsword

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Re: Vehicle of the Week Update: Demon
« Reply #8 on: 27 February 2012, 18:33:02 »
Article updated with material on the new IHGR Demon.

SCC

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Re: Vehicle of the Week Update: Demon
« Reply #9 on: 28 February 2012, 01:56:19 »
The second horned Demon, that has CASE but nothing to explode, right?
And the XTRO model is using  sponsons over pintles because of their increased fire arcs, right?

Moonsword

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Re: Vehicle of the Week Update: Demon
« Reply #10 on: 28 February 2012, 12:31:02 »
The second horned Demon, that has CASE but nothing to explode, right?
And the XTRO model is using  sponsons over pintles because of their increased fire arcs, right?

I didn't lay it out quite that explicitly, but yes, there's nothing to explode in the PPC variant.

On the IHGR Demon, they're in sponsons because you can't mount a pintle on a combat vehicle.  They're available only to small support vehicles and have exactly the same arc of fire a sponson would.

Jim1701

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Re: Vehicle of the Week Update: Demon
« Reply #11 on: 28 February 2012, 15:39:13 »
The only two things I can think of that you can do to a vehicle that requires a factory refit is add/remove CASE and changing engine types.  Since the base model has CASE, from a in-universe point of view it would be a lot faster and cheaper to leave the CASE and reconfigure the weapon systems using a maintenance bay refit. 

SCC

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Re: Vehicle of the Week Update: Demon
« Reply #12 on: 28 February 2012, 16:05:18 »
Just double checked the rules moonsword, the version I have says
Quote
Pintle mounts may only be used by ground-based Combat and Support Vehicles (those using a Wheeled, Tracked,
Hover or WiGE motive system), Combat and Support VTOLs, and Airship Support Vehicles.
(TM pg 235) and I can find no errata that corrects this, so the Demon could mount pintles. These same rules restrict side mounted pintles fire arc to dropshop fore and aft side arcs (so they can't fire forwards or back)

Functionally however you are correct, pintles use a unusual definition of heavy weapons (half a ton or more) meaning that virtually all weapons can't be mounted in them

@Jim1701 you do realize that this is a FACTORY variant? And the armor was changed? (which is where CASE is grouped in the TROs)

Moonsword

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Re: Vehicle of the Week Update: Demon
« Reply #13 on: 28 February 2012, 17:21:57 »
Those rules are both incomplete (they're restricted specifically to small vehicles under 5 tons in both sets of SV construction rules) and I suspect incorrect (the combat vehicle construction rules don't mention them to begin with because they're intended for weapons combat vehicles can't carry by definition).  A rules question has been submitted.  The definition mentioned for heavy weapons is an incorrect (or, rather, overly abbreviated) reference to the definition on page 20; substantially, it's accurate aside from a handful of Clan weapons.

As for the arcs, that one's due to inconsistent rules between TM and Tactical Operations (which says they're the same, then says sponsons fire into the fore and aft hex rows).  Put in a rules question for it, please.

And the PPC model has 0.5 tons of cargo in the newest version of the sheet.  The article is being corrected.

Jim1701

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Re: Vehicle of the Week Update: Demon
« Reply #14 on: 28 February 2012, 22:58:39 »

@Jim1701 you do realize that this is a FACTORY variant? And the armor was changed? (which is where CASE is grouped in the TROs)

No, I don't know that the PPC variant is a factory refit.  I do know that functionally it is a maintenace bay refit which can include changes to armor types and amounts. 
« Last Edit: 29 February 2012, 10:15:35 by Jim1701 »

SCC

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Re: Vehicle of the Week Update: Demon
« Reply #15 on: 28 February 2012, 23:14:55 »
Question asked
Inquiry: as of TRO:P what are the rules level of iHGR and sponsons?

Moonsword

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Re: Vehicle of the Week Update: Demon
« Reply #16 on: 29 February 2012, 12:11:13 »
No, I don't know that the PPC variant is a factory refit.  I do know that functionally it is a maintenace bay refit which can include changes to armor types and amounts. 

It's not anymore because of the CASE removal, but with the older stats, you're quite correct.  However, looking at them again and rebuilding the vehicle, I missed the cargo bay the first time around the current set is underweight by a half-ton.  I'll report it this evening.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week Update: Demon
« Reply #17 on: 03 March 2012, 15:20:57 »
Question asked
Inquiry: as of TRO:P what are the rules level of iHGR and sponsons?

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Re: Vehicle of the Week Update: Demon
« Reply #18 on: 04 March 2012, 10:16:20 »
Ah, the Demon, an excellent mechbuster of a truck. I really think the vulnerability of wheeled vehicles is exaggerated; all vehicles are at a disadvantage against mechs, and aren't going to last long against them. At least the wheeled chassis allows a good amount of tonnage for weapons in exchange for the greater fragility (and they're tougher than hovers , VTOLs, and WiGEs).
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