Author Topic: Balancing ACs, LRMs, and energy weapons in 3025. Or, justifying the AC/5.  (Read 64959 times)

Bismarck

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 301
I guess that makes the RPG-7 pretty near useless considering the only ~375 f/s of muzzle velocity. 

The projectile "Defeat Mechanism" can be independent of the weapons muzzle velocity.

muzzle velocity is key for KE based bullets, "AP" = armor piercing or "HVAP" = hyper-velocity AP

bullets that carry explosive charges, such as the HEAT munitions employed in the referenced RPG-7, carry their own source of damaging energy w/in them, and so do not need (nearly as much) muzzle velocity

http://wiki.worldoftanks.com/Ammo
their rules (not mine) = "everybody dies, and from death, some are selected to slavery"

foolish farmers fooled forth from farms, to the field, at (e.g.) Marathon, where many men met determined doom, and all others, identified, were ever after relentlessly pursued & hunted down, themselves, their families, their blood, per policy of "pasture-ization", by (e.g.) oath-sworn Hannibal, patiently, for prolonged protracted periods, to present -- those have been being The Rules, for many millennia

honor is politics... right ?

Bismarck

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 301
one more thing re: rules for "dueling"...

w/o some way of muting heat spikes from heavy weapons, everybody could be considerably slowed down...

perhaps pilots could attempt 1 PSR per dueling turn, to avoid the FX of heat, for that dueling turn...
the PSR would be at a penalty, equal to the number of heat FX trying to be avoided, e.g. -1 MP at 5 heat, +1 penalty to weapons at 8 heat, -2 MP at 10 heat etc.
if the PSR succeeded, then the pilot could avoid (say) one such heat effect, per point of PSR success

that again would emphasize the importance of piloting

trying to help "dueling" optional rules...

which would amp up AC ROF

but people possibly perceive that "120-pt heat scale" as cumbersomely new-and-different...

stick w/ standard 30-point scale...
game turns occur in "lots of four"
BM heat dissipation gets divided into fourths, evenly as possible w/o complexity

e.g. 10 HS ----> 3/3/2/2 heat per turn

everything else is normal, except for "duration heat" FX such as moving, standing in fire, or water, etc.

for those, since game turns = 1/4th the duration, heat gained/lost = 1/4th...

how to account for partial heat points ?

game turns occur in groups of four...
at the beginning of some "first of four" turns, everybody clears out a heat pool...
every time they walk, add one counter of some sort, to the pool...
run => add 2
etc.

every time you see 4 heat counters in your pool, remove the 4, and increment heat by 1
water would also allow you to remove heat counters

after every fourth turn, the heat pool is cleared out, repeat

that way, AC/2s could fire for less than one HP, and partial HP could be accounted, w/o using newfangled 120HP scale

(one heat counter = 1/4th HP)
their rules (not mine) = "everybody dies, and from death, some are selected to slavery"

foolish farmers fooled forth from farms, to the field, at (e.g.) Marathon, where many men met determined doom, and all others, identified, were ever after relentlessly pursued & hunted down, themselves, their families, their blood, per policy of "pasture-ization", by (e.g.) oath-sworn Hannibal, patiently, for prolonged protracted periods, to present -- those have been being The Rules, for many millennia

honor is politics... right ?

monbvol

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13326
  • I said don't look!
True fewer shots per ton is an advantage in a ammo bomb. But it's also a disadvantage at it's less rounds fired at the enemy. You're also presuming most of all the missiles will hit. That isn't always the case.

Again why should I presume anything other than average?  If there is another number I should use go ahead and provide it.  Between my knowledge of probability and the fact my dice have yet to fail to follow probability theory I don't know what else I should use.

Quote
But I can still use standard, tracer, and flak.

And I have standard as well.  In a contest of pure standard versus standard the LRM is going to come out on top more often than not.  Tracer only modestly useful under conditions that most players don't even use.  Flak and the AC-2 would be a lot nicer if I wasn't investing 7 tons in something that is very situational.

Quote
Meanwhile the AC doesn't have to change.

Yeah it just goes from maybe doing one thing almost well enough to not be a complete waste of tonnage to not being able to a complete waste of tonnage as new options come on line.

Quote
Against infantry, sure. But you're being as dangerous to mechs and vehicles isn't a sure thing. 12 minimums is only 36 points. 20 rounds form an AC/5 is 100 points of damage. Presuming a hit every time.

Considering I can engage from farther away, use indirect fire, and hit more often until 6 hexes and closer I think I'll stick with the LRMs.

Quote
You're still aiming at where I am, or where you hope I'll be.

Again there is no hoping where you'll be.

Quote
By themselves they have range and the possibility of more damage. That's it. And while you have the possibility of more damage you have less changes to cause it. You have to use a LRM-15 to  always do as much damage as an AC/5. Without any anti-missile defenses, that is. And you've only got 8 shots unless you add more ammo. If you do that you're now at the same weight as the AC/5, and you still have 4 less shots. You're also generating 5 times the heat.  And not every unit likes heat.

Unless you use enhanced missile defense rules you will always do more damage with an LRM-15 than an AC-5 with AMS on the field if using a munition type that can be intercepted by AMS.  If I go all the way to a LRM-15 then I'm certainly going to consider having at least two tons to draw from, so while I may not have saved any weight but I've certainly increased the odds I'll hurt my opponent more and thus be more likely to come home alive and with less damage taken.  Unless I've taken an engine hit or two the extra heat isn't very likely to be a big deal.

Quote
Since you probably have better dice karma than me the LRM-15 probably seems like overkill to you. To me, it's the closest missile equivalent to a AC/5. Hitting with more than the minimum missiles like hitting with both rounds when the AC/5 rapid fires. Without risking a jam.  That doesn't mean I won't use LRM-5s. But I'm not going to be ripping out all my AC/s either.

My dice follow probability theory pretty well.  They roll high about as often as they roll low.  So the LRM-10 does seem like a fair comparison to the AC-5 to me.  Without AMS all I have to do is roll a 5 on the Cluster Hit Table and I've out performed the AC-5 in damage.  The LRM-15 ties on a 2 or a 3 but 4 and higher is going to leave the AC-5 in the proverbial dust.  Heck I've considered taking my chances with paired LRM-5s instead of a LRM-10 because they weight a ton less but that is pushing even my luck.  Still might be worth it to some people, especially if their MegaMek luck is better than mine.

FedComGirl

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4447
Again why should I presume anything other than average?  If there is another number I should use go ahead and provide it.  Between my knowledge of probability and the fact my dice have yet to fail to follow probability theory I don't know what else I should use.

My average and your average are not the same things. I'm also not sure my dice went to the same class as yours. In fact I think they skipped that class. All I know is that the only damage you can count on is the minimum.


Quote
And I have standard as well.  In a contest of pure standard versus standard the LRM is going to come out on top more often than not.  Tracer only modestly useful under conditions that most players don't even use.  Flak and the AC-2 would be a lot nicer if I wasn't investing 7 tons in something that is very situational.

No you'd be investing 3-6 tons depending on if you want 1 or 3 points of damage. More tonnage if you need extra heat sinks.

Quote
Yeah it just goes from maybe doing one thing almost well enough to not be a complete waste of tonnage to not being able to a complete waste of tonnage as new options come on line.

While the AC is staying consistent, you're having to change various things to equal it.

Quote
Considering I can engage from farther away, use indirect fire, and hit more often until 6 hexes and closer I think I'll stick with the LRMs.

Engaging further away is the only advantage LRMs have on their own. Unless there's been an errata I missed Indirect Fire requires a spotter.

Quote
Again there is no hoping where you'll be.

You're hoping the missiles will hit the target hex.

Quote
Unless you use enhanced missile defense rules you will always do more damage with an LRM-15 than an AC-5 with AMS on the field if using a munition type that can be intercepted by AMS.  If I go all the way to a LRM-15 then I'm certainly going to consider having at least two tons to draw from, so while I may not have saved any weight but I've certainly increased the odds I'll hurt my opponent more and thus be more likely to come home alive and with less damage taken.  Unless I've taken an engine hit or two the extra heat isn't very likely to be a big deal.

Considering that I have consistently gotten low amounts of missiles hitting the target, my opponents don't need enhanced missile defenses. Consistently low missiles hits do not add up to as much damage as an AC/5's constant 5 points of damage. All those extra missiles do is give you a chance of doing more damage to your opponent. A chance is not a sure thing.   And you're presuming again about the heat sinks, but I'll let it slide since I doubt you'd use low-tech Mechs.

Quote
My dice follow probability theory pretty well.  They roll high about as often as they roll low.  So the LRM-10 does seem like a fair comparison to the AC-5 to me.  Without AMS all I have to do is roll a 5 on the Cluster Hit Table and I've out performed the AC-5 in damage.  The LRM-15 ties on a 2 or a 3 but 4 and higher is going to leave the AC-5 in the proverbial dust.  Heck I've considered taking my chances with paired LRM-5s instead of a LRM-10 because they weight a ton less but that is pushing even my luck.  Still might be worth it to some people, especially if their MegaMek luck is better than mine.


My dice definitely did not go to the same school as yours. That or they just don't like me. They constantly go the opposite of what I need. If I need high, they go low. If I need low, they go high. That's why I say you shouldn't presume you'll always get high or even average. The only thing you can be sure of is the minimum number hitting. Everything after that is extra.

That doesn't mean I don't see the advantages of LRM in story and theory. I've swapped LRM-10 for 2 LRM-5s just to have that extra ammo. But in practice? I'm still not seeing my ACs being obsoleted by them.

Bismarck

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 301
L = light
M = medium
H = heavy
A = assault
HA = heavy-assault

Code: [Select]
kind     caliber        heat     damage     range       tons       slugs per ton
L-MG      15mm           0         1          3          0.25        2000
M-MG      30mm           0         2          6          0.5          800
H-MG      45mm           0         3          9          1.0          400

L-AC      60mm          0.25       4         12           3           180
M-AC      90mm           1         6         18           6            80
H-AC     120mm           3         8         24          10            40
A-AC     150mm           7        10         30          14            20
their rules (not mine) = "everybody dies, and from death, some are selected to slavery"

foolish farmers fooled forth from farms, to the field, at (e.g.) Marathon, where many men met determined doom, and all others, identified, were ever after relentlessly pursued & hunted down, themselves, their families, their blood, per policy of "pasture-ization", by (e.g.) oath-sworn Hannibal, patiently, for prolonged protracted periods, to present -- those have been being The Rules, for many millennia

honor is politics... right ?

monbvol

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13326
  • I said don't look!
My average and your average are not the same things. I'm also not sure my dice went to the same class as yours. In fact I think they skipped that class. All I know is that the only damage you can count on is the minimum.

Average is average.  By only using minimum you discount the times when you get more than minimum and unfairly underate an option.  If you use maximum you over value.  Average accounts for both as fairly as possible.

Quote
No you'd be investing 3-6 tons depending on if you want 1 or 3 points of damage. More tonnage if you need extra heat sinks.

Since I'll never roll minimum damage all the time I'll gladly take the 5 tons of an LRM-5, heat sinks, and ton of ammunition over the 8 tons of AC-2, heat sink, and ton of ammunition for a general service weapon.  Or the 10 tons of LRM-10, heat sinks, and ton of ammunition versus 10 tons of AC-5, heat sink, and ton of ammunition.

Quote
While the AC is staying consistent, you're having to change various things to equal it.

Not quite.  The AC-5 is still beat by the same LRM-10.  I'd say a more accurate statement would be as more options get added as alternatives ACs become even more outclassed.  For an example as tech evolves I do start considering things like the Gauss Rifle instead of the AC-20.  May not get any specialty ammunition to kill a lot of infantry, but since I could do that well enough at that range as far back as 2380 with a different weapon that I would like to mount with either an AC-20 or a Gauss Rifle when possible I consider that a wash.  May not get Flak, Tracer, AP, or Precision but having a bit over double the range, more shots per ton of ammunition, only one more ton, 3 fewer critical slots, and for less heat is pretty attractive in my book.

Quote
Engaging further away is the only advantage LRMs have on their own. Unless there's been an errata I missed Indirect Fire requires a spotter.

You mean other than being more likely to hit more often and only doing less damage if your dice decide to defy statistical theory?  So what if I need a spotter for indirect?  War is a team sport.  I'm pretty sure I can arrange for one.  Even if I can't that means I either got LOS anyway or am in a lot of trouble no matter what my weapon of choice is.

Quote
You're hoping the missiles will hit the target hex.

And you're hoping your AC-5 will connect.  Frankly I like my odds better since I get the -4 and no TMM.  At best you can hope for negating +2 TMM or a -2 versus something that flies.  Advantage LRM.

Quote
Considering that I have consistently gotten low amounts of missiles hitting the target, my opponents don't need enhanced missile defenses. Consistently low missiles hits do not add up to as much damage as an AC/5's constant 5 points of damage. All those extra missiles do is give you a chance of doing more damage to your opponent. A chance is not a sure thing.   And you're presuming again about the heat sinks, but I'll let it slide since I doubt you'd use low-tech Mechs.

I've never constantly rolled less than a 5 on the cluster hit chart through an entire ton of LRM ammunition.  The AC-5 does 5 damage if it hits.  Which it doesn't do as often as an LRM in my experience.  I may have the double chances of both a to hit and a cluster hit roll to make but I'll take those odds over an AC-5.  I use low tech mechs fairly often.  I just know heat management and am not afraid to push the heat scale when needed.  I play more scenario/campaign style play than pickup when I do play.  So a lot of the time I don't get to know what I've going to be fighting until I get to the map board.

Quote
My dice definitely did not go to the same school as yours. That or they just don't like me. They constantly go the opposite of what I need. If I need high, they go low. If I need low, they go high. That's why I say you shouldn't presume you'll always get high or even average. The only thing you can be sure of is the minimum number hitting. Everything after that is extra.

That doesn't mean I don't see the advantages of LRM in story and theory. I've swapped LRM-10 for 2 LRM-5s just to have that extra ammo. But in practice? I'm still not seeing my ACs being obsoleted by them.

For me I've just seen too many failed to hit rolls with ACs when LRMs connected in the same combat turn on the same or better to hit numbers to not consider the extra roll on the cluster hit chart as a downside. Or too many critical hits breaking my ACs and not having enough secondary weapons to carry the fight despite it.  Since as I mentioned most of the time I don't know what I'm going to fight until I get to the map board specialty ammunition has never really panned out that well for me for ACs.

If I'm stuck with an AC and have no chance to rip it out for something else I will try to win with it.  I just don't pretend it is something that it is not.  I wish it was something less of a lemon but it just doesn't perform.

Bismarck

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 301
L = light
M = medium
H = heavy
A = assault
HA = heavy-assault

1 damage ~= 1 mega-Joule of energy ~= 100mm / 10cm / 0.1m of steel-plate penetration

3025

Code: [Select]
kind     caliber        heat      damage     range        tons       slugs per ton
L-MG      15mm           0          1          3          0.25        2000
M-MG      30mm           0          2          6          0.5          800
H-MG      45mm           0          3          9          1.0          400

L-AC      60mm          0.25        4         12           3           180
M-AC      90mm           1          6         18           6            80
H-AC     120mm           3          8         24          10            40
A-AC     150mm           7         10         30          14            20
HA-AC    180mm          12         12         36          20            10

Code: [Select]
kind                   heat      damage      range        tons
UL-Lsr                   0          2          3          0.25
L-Lsr                    1          3          6          0.5
M-Lsr                    3          5          9           1
H-Lsr                    5          6         12           2
A-Lsr                    8          8         15           5
HA-Lsr                   9          9         18           9

L-PPC                    5          5         21           3
M-PPC                   10         10         21           7
H-PPC                   15         15         21          10
A-PPC                   20         20         21          14
HA-PPC                  25         25         21          17

3050

Code: [Select]
kind                   heat      damage      range        tons
ER L-Lsr                 2          2          8          0.25
ER M-Lsr                 5          4         16           1
ER H-Lsr                12          8         24           5
ER A-Lsr                20         12         32          10
ER HA-Lsr               30         16         40          20

Pls-L-Lsr                2          3          4          0.5
Pls-M-Lsr                4          5          8           2
Pls-H-Lsr               10          9         12           7
Pls-A-Lsr               18         13         16          14
Pls-HA-Lsr              28         17         20          28

ER Pls-L-Lsr             3          3          5          0.5
ER Pls-M-Lsr             6          5         10           2
ER Pls-H-Lsr            13          9         15           7
ER Pls-A-Lsr            23         13         20          14
ER Pls-HA-Lsr           36         17         25          28

ER L-PPC                 8          5         28           3
ER M-PPC                15         10         28           7
ER H-PPC                23         15         28          10
ER A-PPC                30         20         28          14
ER HA-PPC               38         25         28          17

Code: [Select]
kind     caliber        heat      damage     range        tons       slugs per ton
L-LBX-AC   60mm         0.125       4         14           3           180
M-LBX-AC   90mm         0.5         6         21           6            80
H-LBX-AC  120mm          2          8         28          10            40
A-LBX-AC  150mm          6         10         35          14            20
HA-LBX-AC 180mm         11         12         42          20            10

L-Ult-AC   60mm         0.25        4         13           4           180
M-Ult-AC   90mm          1          6         20           7            80
H-Ult-AC  120mm          3          8         26          11            40
A-Ult-AC  150mm          7         10         33          15            20
HA-Ult-AC 180mm         12         12         39          21            10

L-GR      60mm          0.5        10         16          12           180
M-GR      90mm           1         15         24          15            80
H-GR     120mm           2         20         32          20            40
A-GR     150mm           4         25         40          30            20
HA-GR    180mm           8         30         48          40            10

Clan

Code: [Select]
kind                   heat      damage      range        tons
ER L-Lsr                 2          4         10          0.25
ER M-Lsr                 5          6         20           1
ER H-Lsr                12         10         30           4
ER A-Lsr                20         14         40           8
ER HA-Lsr               30         18         50           16

Pls-L-Lsr                2          4          8          0.5
Pls-M-Lsr                4          6         16           2
Pls-H-Lsr               10         10         24           6
Pls-A-Lsr               18         14         32          12
Pls-HA-Lsr              28         18         40          24

ER Pls-L-Lsr             3          4          9          0.5
ER Pls-M-Lsr             6          6         18           2
ER Pls-H-Lsr            13         10         27           6
ER Pls-A-Lsr            22         14         36          12
ER Pls-HA-Lsr           36         18         45          24

ER L-PPC                 8          8         28           3
ER M-PPC                15         15         28           6
ER H-PPC                23         23         28           9
ER A-PPC                30         30         28          12
ER HA-PPC               38         38         28          15

Code: [Select]
kind     caliber        heat      damage     range        tons       slugs per ton
L-LBX-AC   60mm         0.125       4         16           2           180
M-LBX-AC   90mm         0.5         6         24           5            80
H-LBX-AC  120mm          2          8         32           8            40
A-LBX-AC  150mm          6         10         40          12            20
HA-LBX-AC 180mm         11         12         48          18            10

L-Ult-AC   60mm         0.25        4         14           2           180
M-Ult-AC   90mm          1          6         21           5            80
H-Ult-AC  120mm          3          8         28           8            40
A-Ult-AC  150mm          7         10         35          12            20
HA-Ult-AC 180mm         12         12         42          18            10

L-GR      60mm          0.5        10         16          10           180
M-GR      90mm           1         15         24          12            80
H-GR     120mm           2         20         32          16            40
A-GR     150mm           4         25         40          25            20
HA-GR    180mm           8         30         48          32            10
« Last Edit: 01 September 2013, 10:45:40 by Bismarck »
their rules (not mine) = "everybody dies, and from death, some are selected to slavery"

foolish farmers fooled forth from farms, to the field, at (e.g.) Marathon, where many men met determined doom, and all others, identified, were ever after relentlessly pursued & hunted down, themselves, their families, their blood, per policy of "pasture-ization", by (e.g.) oath-sworn Hannibal, patiently, for prolonged protracted periods, to present -- those have been being The Rules, for many millennia

honor is politics... right ?

FedComGirl

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4447
Average is average.  By only using minimum you discount the times when you get more than minimum and unfairly underate an option.  If you use maximum you over value.  Average accounts for both as fairly as possible.

My average is the minimum, so our averages are not the same. I'm also not discounting that the damage can be more. The same can be true with an AC rapid firing. I'm just not counting on it as a for sure thing. Just like I don't for rapid firing since one shot.

Quote
Quote
Since I'll never roll minimum damage all the time I'll gladly take the 5 tons of an LRM-5, heat sinks, and ton of ammunition over the 8 tons of AC-2, heat sink, and ton of ammunition for a general service weapon.  Or the 10 tons of LRM-10, heat sinks, and ton of ammunition versus 10 tons of AC-5, heat sink, and ton of ammunition.

Since I usually roll minimum I'd have to pick based on what the unit would be doing.

Quote
Not quite.  The AC-5 is still beat by the same LRM-10.  I'd say a more accurate statement would be as more options get added as alternatives ACs become even more outclassed.  For an example as tech evolves I do start considering things like the Gauss Rifle instead of the AC-20.  May not get any specialty ammunition to kill a lot of infantry, but since I could do that well enough at that range as far back as 2380 with a different weapon that I would like to mount with either an AC-20 or a Gauss Rifle when possible I consider that a wash.  May not get Flak, Tracer, AP, or Precision but having a bit over double the range, more shots per ton of ammunition, only one more ton, 3 fewer critical slots, and for less heat is pretty attractive in my book.

I wouldn't say that at all. The LRM-10 still has less for sure damage than the AC and less ammo to do it with. 2380?  Sure as new tech is useful and fun to use but it can be downright expensive. The Gauss Rifle is a ton heavier than the AC/20. Where's that ton going to come from? On a low tech mech probably heat sinks. But on anything else? You either have to remove something or add more new tech.

Quote
You mean other than being more likely to hit more often and only doing less damage if your dice decide to defy statistical theory?  So what if I need a spotter for indirect?  War is a team sport.  I'm pretty sure I can arrange for one.  Even if I can't that means I either got LOS anyway or am in a lot of trouble no matter what my weapon of choice is.

Being able to hit sooner doesn't equal more often. My dice apparently never learned statistical theory. So you're having to add something to make the LRM better than the AC. And not all combat is a team sport.


Quote
And you're hoping your AC-5 will connect.  Frankly I like my odds better since I get the -4 and no TMM.  At best you can hope for negating +2 TMM or a -2 versus something that flies.  Advantage LRM.

And you're hoping the LRMs will. I will readily admit you've got way more gaming experience than I do but I'm not seeing where you're getting all your numbers. Still, the AC has more shots per ton so I can afford to miss time or 2.

Quote
I've never constantly rolled less than a 5 on the cluster hit chart through an entire ton of LRM ammunition.  The AC-5 does 5 damage if it hits.  Which it doesn't do as often as an LRM in my experience.  I may have the double chances of both a to hit and a cluster hit roll to make but I'll take those odds over an AC-5.  I use low tech mechs fairly often.  I just know heat management and am not afraid to push the heat scale when needed.  I play more scenario/campaign style play than pickup when I do play.  So a lot of the time I don't get to know what I've going to be fighting until I get to the map board.

Your dice are better behaved than mine. I have to munkin my unit just to have a chance of hitting something. The more shots I have the better. I like low tech units and while I will push heat levels I don't take the first 4 heat for granted. You go over when I really have to. Or must for TSM. If you get used to it you won't have that cushion when you need it and you'll be constantly suffering heat penalties. You must guess very well to always have the right ammo.


Quote
Quote
For me I've just seen too many failed to hit rolls with ACs when LRMs connected in the same combat turn on the same or better to hit numbers to not consider the extra roll on the cluster hit chart as a downside. Or too many critical hits breaking my ACs and not having enough secondary weapons to carry the fight despite it.  Since as I mentioned most of the time I don't know what I'm going to fight until I get to the map board specialty ammunition has never really panned out that well for me for ACs.

So your dislike of AC/s is because of bad luck with them? Not because of what they can actually do.

Quote
If I'm stuck with an AC and have no chance to rip it out for something else I will try to win with it.  I just don't pretend it is something that it is not.  I wish it was something less of a lemon but it just doesn't perform.

I'm not pretending either. To me they just have different purposes and while I can use LRM instead of ACs I've found I have to have a lot more of them and a lot more ammo. In a game. In a story I can have anything happen but on a game board the dice rule in the others favor.

FedComGirl

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4447
snip

Very nice but why the set mm for canons? Not all cannons are the same.

WarGod

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1279
My first few games where introtech, so here goes.  I can't justify the AC/5 in more modern games, and wont even try.  When I was a Kid I wondered why not just install a PPC, with 3 extra heat sinks, or a large laser with 5 extra heat sinks.  Then I played a game where heat was a Factor ( old scenario)  where your mech built 2 extra heat a turn, and with single heat sinks, it made life suck.  The AC/5 does come into its own, in the old days because it did decent damage at a distance greater then 9 hexes.  A shadow hawk back in the day, can fire its AC/5 constantly, where as my warhammer at the time can fire 2 PPC's a turn for maybe what 3 turns with out too much adverse effects.  Or the time honored Marauder tactic of 2 PPC's one turn, 1 PPC, and the AC/5 the next, Fire 2 PPCs' next turn. 
A knight in shining armor is a man who has never had his metal truly tested
You're falling through the air in a Grenadier. Style went out the window long before you did.

monbvol

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13326
  • I said don't look!
My average is the minimum, so our averages are not the same. I'm also not discounting that the damage can be more. The same can be true with an AC rapid firing. I'm just not counting on it as a for sure thing. Just like I don't for rapid firing since one shot.

If you want to use minimum then use the term minimum.  Doesn't change the definition of average.  As for rapid firing you're now in the same boat of having to make a to hit and a cluster hit roll with the added draw back of using up the ammunition faster.  No AC specialty ammunitions provide a bonus on the Cluster Hit table roll.

Quote
Since I usually roll minimum I'd have to pick based on what the unit would be doing.

If you really roll minimum that much then your dice have a physical defect.  May not be detectable by the naked eye but it's there if that is really the case.

Quote
I wouldn't say that at all. The LRM-10 still has less for sure damage than the AC and less ammo to do it with. 2380?  Sure as new tech is useful and fun to use but it can be downright expensive. The Gauss Rifle is a ton heavier than the AC/20. Where's that ton going to come from? On a low tech mech probably heat sinks. But on anything else? You either have to remove something or add more new tech.

C-bill expense has never really been a problem for me in my campaigns.

If I really want to kill Infantry inside of 9 hexes SRMs with Inferno ammunition(intro date of 2380) are hard to beat and given the choice I will pack an SRM-4 or SRM-6 depending on available tonnage with an AC-20 or a Gauss Rifle and a ton of standard with a ton of Inferno.  They are hard to beat even against Battle Armor until the advent of Fire Resistant armor.

Since AC-20s almost always have more than one ton of ammunition if I couldn't remove a heat sink I'd look at trading in a ton of ammunition.  Beyond that I'd have to consider the specific mech in question to say what I'd remove.

Quote
Being able to hit sooner doesn't equal more often. My dice apparently never learned statistical theory. So you're having to add something to make the LRM better than the AC. And not all combat is a team sport.

LRM-10 versus AC-5 To hit numbers with ammunition that must target units:  21-19 LRM can hit while AC-5 cannot.  18-15 same to hit. 14 and 13 advantage LRM.  12-8 same to hit.  7 advantage LRM.  6 and closer advantage AC unless I'm also using the optional hot loading LRMs rule which I've been known to use then LRM regains advantage at 3-1.

If I'm going one on one it means I'm either on Solaris or it is to my advantage to fight a duel by my enemy's rules.  In which case I'll admit an LRM may not always be the right choice but I've admitted that a few times.  I've said it is hard for me to not side with the LRM-10 over the AC-5 in a pure side by side comparison.

Quote
And you're hoping the LRMs will. I will readily admit you've got way more gaming experience than I do but I'm not seeing where you're getting all your numbers. Still, the AC has more shots per ton so I can afford to miss time or 2.

Mine Clearance and Thunder must target hexes.  Hexes get the -4 TMM for being immobile targets and as such do not generate TMMs.  There is no Area Effect AC round so all ACs must target units.

Quote
Your dice are better behaved than mine. I have to munkin my unit just to have a chance of hitting something. The more shots I have the better. I like low tech units and while I will push heat levels I don't take the first 4 heat for granted. You go over when I really have to. Or must for TSM. If you get used to it you won't have that cushion when you need it and you'll be constantly suffering heat penalties. You must guess very well to always have the right ammo.

What I've said several times now is one type of specialty ammunition gives me enough versatility against so many targets that it is hard to not guess right.  ACs require at least three different types of ammunition to even get close to that versatility.

Quote
So your dislike of AC/s is because of bad luck with them? Not because of what they can actually do.

More accurately I dislike them because they weight too much for what they do.

Quote
I'm not pretending either. To me they just have different purposes and while I can use LRM instead of ACs I've found I have to have a lot more of them and a lot more ammo. In a game. In a story I can have anything happen but on a game board the dice rule in the others favor.

When dice meet table the dice do tend to be the ultimate arbiters.  Mine have had their times where they roll low and matches where they run hot.

My first few games where introtech, so here goes.  I can't justify the AC/5 in more modern games, and wont even try.  When I was a Kid I wondered why not just install a PPC, with 3 extra heat sinks, or a large laser with 5 extra heat sinks.  Then I played a game where heat was a Factor ( old scenario)  where your mech built 2 extra heat a turn, and with single heat sinks, it made life suck.  The AC/5 does come into its own, in the old days because it did decent damage at a distance greater then 9 hexes.  A shadow hawk back in the day, can fire its AC/5 constantly, where as my warhammer at the time can fire 2 PPC's a turn for maybe what 3 turns with out too much adverse effects.  Or the time honored Marauder tactic of 2 PPC's one turn, 1 PPC, and the AC/5 the next, Fire 2 PPCs' next turn. 

My favorite fix for the Marauder 3R is pull the AC-5 for 4 heat sinks, 4 medium lasers, and a ton of armor.  High heat environments may still be a bit of a pain but it can stand and deliver as long as the armor holds.

Warhammer 6R is a great teacher for firing discipline.  But if you really want to fix it just use a 6D instead.

Shadow Hawk 2H I'd rip the AC-5 off increase the existing LRM rack to a 15 get some more ammo, increase the existing SRM rack to a 4, add another medium laser to the other arm, make it a full 5/8/5 and call it a day.

I understand wanting to fight past 9 hexes.  I really do.  I am cursed with introtech Hunchbacks and Victors.  It just seems you fell into the same trap I did years ago.  All energy all the time.  Sometimes it will be an energy weapon that is an appropriate fix.  Sometimes it'll be a missile weapon.

FedComGirl

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4447
If you want to use minimum then use the term minimum.  Doesn't change the definition of average.  As for rapid firing you're now in the same boat of having to make a to hit and a cluster hit roll with the added draw back of using up the ammunition faster.  No AC specialty ammunitions provide a bonus on the Cluster Hit table roll.

Like I said, my average isn't your average. True but it also gives me the chance of doing more damage. Just like all the missiles beyond the minimum.

Quote
If you really roll minimum that much then your dice have a physical defect.  May not be detectable by the naked eye but it's there if that is really the case.

Nope. Just bad dice karma. If I need low numbers I roll high. Even on computer games that have dice I get the opposite of what I need.

Quote
C-bill expense has never really been a problem for me in my campaigns.

That's cool. I tend to gloss over exact numbers but I do keep costs in mind.

Quote
If I really want to kill Infantry inside of 9 hexes SRMs with Inferno ammunition(intro date of 2380) are hard to beat and given the choice I will pack an SRM-4 or SRM-6 depending on available tonnage with an AC-20 or a Gauss Rifle and a ton of standard with a ton of Inferno.  They are hard to beat even against Battle Armor until the advent of Fire Resistant armor.

Ah. That's where the 2380 came from. Now we're comparing AC/s and SRMs? I agree infernos against infantry are deadly. They're nice to have if the tonnage is available. Although, TW did nerf other weapons against infantry.

Quote
Since AC-20s almost always have more than one ton of ammunition if I couldn't remove a heat sink I'd look at trading in a ton of ammunition.  Beyond that I'd have to consider the specific mech in question to say what I'd remove.

Trading some damage, and ammo, for range can be good. Not every mech can trade in ammo or even heat sinks though.

Quote
LRM-10 versus AC-5 To hit numbers with ammunition that must target units:  21-19 LRM can hit while AC-5 cannot.  18-15 same to hit. 14 and 13 advantage LRM.  12-8 same to hit.  7 advantage LRM.  6 and closer advantage AC unless I'm also using the optional hot loading LRMs rule which I've been known to use then LRM regains advantage at 3-1.

While they have an advantage in to hit numbers unless you're using an LRM-15, or your dice, your doing as much damage as an AC/5 isn't a sure thing.

Quote
If I'm going one on one it means I'm either on Solaris or it is to my advantage to fight a duel by my enemy's rules.  In which case I'll admit an LRM may not always be the right choice but I've admitted that a few times.  I've said it is hard for me to not side with the LRM-10 over the AC-5 in a pure side by side comparison.

There's lots of reasons you could end up fighting one on one in battle. And while I'll admit LRMs have advantages I'd still side with the AC/5 over the LRM-10.

Quote
Mine Clearance and Thunder must target hexes.  Hexes get the -4 TMM for being immobile targets and as such do not generate TMMs.  There is no Area Effect AC round so all ACs must target units.

Mine clearance do 1/4 damage so you'd need a LRM-20 to do as much damage as an AC/5. That's 2 additional tons and only 6 shots. Unless used against infantry of course. Thunder LRMs do no damage to units already in the hex.

Quote
What I've said several times now is one type of specialty ammunition gives me enough versatility against so many targets that it is hard to not guess right.  ACs require at least three different types of ammunition to even get close to that versatility.

True, and like I've said that type of ammo isn't available in all eras.

Quote
More accurately I dislike them because they weight too much for what they do.

AC/s for the most part fire multiple rounds compared to the Tank and Rifle Cannons they evolved from. So they have to built stronger to handle the rapid recoil and loading, and for a couple, increased range.  30mm canons went from 6 hexes to 24 in range, .53 rounded to 1 to 2 points of damage. To do that the doubled their weight. Triple in the case of the 76.2mm. Compared to the AC/2 the AC/20 gets off really lite. 150mm cannon's don't quite double in weight. But that could be because they don't fire as far so they don't need to be built as heavy.
 
Quote
When dice meet table the dice do tend to be the ultimate arbiters.  Mine have had their times where they roll low and matches where they run hot.

Mine can have good days too which can be shocking but for the most part they're on the other side.

monbvol

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13326
  • I said don't look!
Like I said, my average isn't your average. True but it also gives me the chance of doing more damage. Just like all the missiles beyond the minimum.

I'm still going to have to insist that the correct terms are used according to recognized definitions.  And if you want to use solely minimum on the cluster hit chart that has to go both ways.  I still call minimum an unfair metric because it undervalues the potential.  I won't use maximum either because that overvalues the reality.  6 damage is the most likely result to be rolled on the 10 column.

Quote
Nope. Just bad dice karma. If I need low numbers I roll high. Even on computer games that have dice I get the opposite of what I need.

I don't care what Taharqa says and thus I will grant the option 1 RNG(the one coded by the MM team) in megamek does not work right.  I prefer option 0.  It is still a computer based RNG and still delivers somewhat wonky results but it is not as bad as option 1.  But to roll consistently minimum without ever getting anything more on the cluster hit chart with physical dice, I can only conclude there is a physical defect to deliver that consistent of results.

To be fair though I will say all dice do have some degree of physical defect.  None of mine are so biased that true average has become an unacceptable measure for comparison.  I'd recommend tracking your physical dice results over several matches.  If a tendency towards extreme results occurs it may be time for some new dice.

Quote
That's cool. I tend to gloss over exact numbers but I do keep costs in mind.

Quote
Ah. That's where the 2380 came from. Now we're comparing AC/s and SRMs? I agree infernos against infantry are deadly. They're nice to have if the tonnage is available. Although, TW did nerf other weapons against infantry.

Trading some damage, and ammo, for range can be good. Not every mech can trade in ammo or even heat sinks though.

To be fair we've spent so much time on side by side comparisons of the LRM-10 to AC-5 we really haven't talked about alternatives to the AC-20.  I grant that 20 points of damage to one section is nice.  The weight, critical slot, and short range have caused me to see a lot of mechs equipped with it out fought by opponents who are patient enough to use stand off tactics and are willing to invest time in clearing firing lanes in cluttered terrain to use said stand off tactics.  The SRM-4 or SRM-6 though are such excellent partners with either the Gauss Rifle or AC-20 that given the chance I'll partner the two systems as tonnage allows.  I'm trying to think of a mech I would not be able to swap a Gauss Rifle for an AC-20 that would also require a factory level refit.  As far as anti-infantry capabilities I've always preferred Infernos and Flammers.  The change in TW and the addition of Plasma Rifles was just the icing on the cake for my anti-infantry needs.

Gauss Rifles just become such easy replacements for AC-20s for me once they roll around because any niche they lose out on to AC-20s is easily made up for by the fact I've got a bit over twice the range.  That range has been a huge advantage in my fights.  Even in cluttered terrain.

Before it rolls around though I will consider what it is I want to do.  On Solaris where combat is encouraged to be close and ferocious I might even consider keeping the AC-20.  More often than not though I'll sacrifice concentrated damage, total damage, and the possibility to destroy a mech on any given shot for volume of fire and range.

Quote
While they have an advantage in to hit numbers unless you're using an LRM-15, or your dice, your doing as much damage as an AC/5 isn't a sure thing.

I'll take my chances for the extra versatility.

Quote
There's lots of reasons you could end up fighting one on one in battle. And while I'll admit LRMs have advantages I'd still side with the AC/5 over the LRM-10.

The only other condition that I can think of that might come up is the two combatants on the field are all that remains of either force.  Any other condition is at best a technical variation of one of the other two I listed previously.

Quote
Mine clearance do 1/4 damage so you'd need a LRM-20 to do as much damage as an AC/5. That's 2 additional tons and only 6 shots. Unless used against infantry of course. Thunder LRMs do no damage to units already in the hex.

Mine Clearance really does work best with a 20 but having the ability to be more likely to put 1, 2, 4, or 8 damage on a target depending on target's armor type, target unit type, and hex occupied by specific target unit types is a fairly attractive option considering that is valid against mechs, most combat vehicles, infantry, and battle armor. Thunder though, the whole plan for Thunder is to lay it in hexes where your forces are not.

Quote
True, and like I've said that type of ammo isn't available in all eras.

Neither are the more useful AC ammunitions.  Flak is very target specific.  Tracer is fighting condition specific and frankly not even that good at it.

Quote
AC/s for the most part fire multiple rounds compared to the Tank and Rifle Cannons they evolved from. So they have to built stronger to handle the rapid recoil and loading, and for a couple, increased range.  30mm canons went from 6 hexes to 24 in range, .53 rounded to 1 to 2 points of damage. To do that the doubled their weight. Triple in the case of the 76.2mm. Compared to the AC/2 the AC/20 gets off really lite. 150mm cannon's don't quite double in weight. But that could be because they don't fire as far so they don't need to be built as heavy.

Since the only objective measure I have is the table top and construction rules that is the yardstick I use.  Against such a yard stick I find them wanting.

Quote

Mine can have good days too which can be shocking but for the most part they're on the other side.

I call my box of dice the cursed dice for a reason.  They still roll mostly 6s, 7s, and 8s, like they should, but seem to have fairly cruel senses of humor about when they will roll what.

FedComGirl

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4447
I'm still going to have to insist that the correct terms are used according to recognized definitions.  And if you want to use solely minimum on the cluster hit chart that has to go both ways.  I still call minimum an unfair metric because it undervalues the potential.  I won't use maximum either because that overvalues the reality.  6 damage is the most likely result to be rolled on the 10 column.

I usually get 3 missiles hitting. Providing I get a hit. If my usual is 3, that's my average. If you usually get 6 that's your average. They're not the same.  If I go with your average I'm over valuing the weapon. If you go with mine you're under valuing it. That's why I use the minimum damage. You can't count on doing more than that. But you can count on the minimum. Everything above that is a bonus.

Quote
I don't care what Taharqa says and thus I will grant the option 1 RNG(the one coded by the MM team) in megamek does not work right.  I prefer option 0.  It is still a computer based RNG and still delivers somewhat wonky results but it is not as bad as option 1.  But to roll consistently minimum without ever getting anything more on the cluster hit chart with physical dice, I can only conclude there is a physical defect to deliver that consistent of results.

To be fair though I will say all dice do have some degree of physical defect.  None of mine are so biased that true average has become an unacceptable measure for comparison.  I'd recommend tracking your physical dice results over several matches.  If a tendency towards extreme results occurs it may be time for some new dice.

Who?  ???   My dice karma's been like this as long as I can remember. It doesn't matter who's dice or what game. I usually roll the opposite of what I need. Even on a computer. Although I do think the computer cheats at Axis & Allies.  >:(
 

Quote
To be fair we've spent so much time on side by side comparisons of the LRM-10 to AC-5 we really haven't talked about alternatives to the AC-20.  I grant that 20 points of damage to one section is nice.  The weight, critical slot, and short range have caused me to see a lot of mechs equipped with it out fought by opponents who are patient enough to use stand off tactics and are willing to invest time in clearing firing lanes in cluttered terrain to use said stand off tactics.  The SRM-4 or SRM-6 though are such excellent partners with either the Gauss Rifle or AC-20 that given the chance I'll partner the two systems as tonnage allows.  I'm trying to think of a mech I would not be able to swap a Gauss Rifle for an AC-20 that would also require a factory level refit.  As far as anti-infantry capabilities I've always preferred Infernos and Flammers.  The change in TW and the addition of Plasma Rifles was just the icing on the cake for my anti-infantry needs.

I like being able to do 20 points of damage in one shot. But keeping your distance and doing nearly as much damage is nice too. So it depends on whether its an open field engagement or close quarters.  To go against infantry though I'd have to pick the Sniper Artillery Cannon. It weighs as much as the Gauss Rifle, better range than the AC/20, and more ammo per ton than both. And while it doesn't pack the solid punch of either it is an area effect weapon, so it can hit more than one target at a time. It also has some lovely ammo types including flechette, which is nasty to infantry. If I'm using flamers and have the tonnage I like the vehicle ones as I can use different ammos. The Plasma Rifle's good though and makes a nice swap for the PPC. As long as there's ammo that is. But it is good for anti-infantry. 

Quote
Gauss Rifles just become such easy replacements for AC-20s for me once they roll around because any niche they lose out on to AC-20s is easily made up for by the fact I've got a bit over twice the range.  That range has been a huge advantage in my fights.  Even in cluttered terrain.

Range is good. But so is killing things in one shot.

Quote
Before it rolls around though I will consider what it is I want to do.  On Solaris where combat is encouraged to be close and ferocious I might even consider keeping the AC-20.  More often than not though I'll sacrifice concentrated damage, total damage, and the possibility to destroy a mech on any given shot for volume of fire and range.

Ditto.

Quote
I'll take my chances for the extra versatility.

I'll take more shots per ton unless I've got room for more ammo.

Quote
The only other condition that I can think of that might come up is the two combatants on the field are all that remains of either force.  Any other condition is at best a technical variation of one of the other two I listed previously.

They don't have to be the only ones left. Just separated from the others. Or practicing one on one combat.

Quote
Mine Clearance really does work best with a 20 but having the ability to be more likely to put 1, 2, 4, or 8 damage on a target depending on target's armor type, target unit type, and hex occupied by specific target unit types is a fairly attractive option considering that is valid against mechs, most combat vehicles, infantry, and battle armor. Thunder though, the whole plan for Thunder is to lay it in hexes where your forces are not.

And to use a 20 you need more tonnage. More ammo would be nice too.

Quote
Neither are the more useful AC ammunitions.  Flak is very target specific.  Tracer is fighting condition specific and frankly not even that good at it.

True, and sort of. It can be used any time and still do damage.

Quote
Since the only objective measure I have is the table top and construction rules that is the yardstick I use.  Against such a yard stick I find them wanting.

I don't. There's a reason why construction and game rules are what they are. Although, there's a few I disagree with and others I just don't understand. But AC? I don't have a problem with the weight. They fire more rounds, and in some cases fire them further, so they need to be stronger than tank and rifle cannons to handle those forces.

Quote
I call my box of dice the cursed dice for a reason.  They still roll mostly 6s, 7s, and 8s, like they should, but seem to have fairly cruel senses of humor about when they will roll what.


Humor can be good, even if its not in your favor on the board. Mine just don't like me.  :(

monbvol

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13326
  • I said don't look!
I usually get 3 missiles hitting. Providing I get a hit. If my usual is 3, that's my average. If you usually get 6 that's your average. They're not the same.  If I go with your average I'm over valuing the weapon. If you go with mine you're under valuing it. That's why I use the minimum damage. You can't count on doing more than that. But you can count on the minimum. Everything above that is a bonus.

That is still not average.  I suspect you actually roll more than minimum on the cluster hit chart than you believe you do but because it is more memorable when you roll minimum that is why you want to use it.  The only other explanations are your dice really do have a physical defect that causes them to roll extremes with a tendency towards the low extreme or you've got your subconcious so conditioned that you don't even notice you're using rolling techniques to influence the results of your dice.  I've actually witnessed the latter first hand.

Quote
Who?  ???   My dice karma's been like this as long as I can remember. It doesn't matter who's dice or what game. I usually roll the opposite of what I need. Even on a computer. Although I do think the computer cheats at Axis & Allies.  >:(

Taharqa is one of the developers for MegaMek and the most avid defender of the MegaMek team's RNG.  And yeah AIs tend to cheat in computer games.
 
Quote
I like being able to do 20 points of damage in one shot. But keeping your distance and doing nearly as much damage is nice too. So it depends on whether its an open field engagement or close quarters.  To go against infantry though I'd have to pick the Sniper Artillery Cannon. It weighs as much as the Gauss Rifle, better range than the AC/20, and more ammo per ton than both. And while it doesn't pack the solid punch of either it is an area effect weapon, so it can hit more than one target at a time. It also has some lovely ammo types including flechette, which is nasty to infantry. If I'm using flamers and have the tonnage I like the vehicle ones as I can use different ammos. The Plasma Rifle's good though and makes a nice swap for the PPC. As long as there's ammo that is. But it is good for anti-infantry.

The artillery cannons I can't say much against.  They don't need Flechette ammunition since their standard round is Area Effect.

Plasma Rifles are also nice general use weapons.

Flammers I'm a bit mixed on.  With some of the changes they've made to Infantry I don't like getting that close anymore.  Still 4d6 does a lot to make it worth the exchange.

Quote
Range is good. But so is killing things in one shot.

Which the Gauss Rifle can still do against any mech not using hardened armor.  Which also provides just enough protection to survive a standard AC-20 hit to the head.  Ferro Lamelor doesn't provide enough damage reduction to make a head hit from a Gauss Rifle survivable.

Quote
Ditto.

I'll take more shots per ton unless I've got room for more ammo.

Nothing left to say on those last two points at this juncture.

Quote
They don't have to be the only ones left. Just separated from the others. Or practicing one on one combat.

If I'm forced to go one on one long enough that I can't free up one of my other units and get it into a position to help then I'm in the scenario where I got bigger problems then if I am stuck with an LRM or an AC.  And practicing one on one combat falls under the condition of it being advantageous for me to fight a duel by my enemy's rules.

Quote
And to use a 20 you need more tonnage. More ammo would be nice too.

True, and sort of. It can be used any time and still do damage.


Quote
I don't. There's a reason why construction and game rules are what they are. Although, there's a few I disagree with and others I just don't understand. But AC? I don't have a problem with the weight. They fire more rounds, and in some cases fire them further, so they need to be stronger than tank and rifle cannons to handle those forces.

The reason is that most of them were made up after the fact to try and make things come out to their published stats.

The proposed changes I'm advocating still make the ACs heavier than their tank cannon counterparts and frankly still make them slightly sub optimal but in the testing I've managed to do with my proposed changes(all except the ammunition count and range changes) I don't find myself quite so willing to put something else in place of the AC.  I have to think about it a lot more and what it is I want to do.  I don't have that with the current stats.

Quote
Humor can be good, even if its not in your favor on the board. Mine just don't like me.  :(

Go ahead and just roll your dice a few times with no particular goal other than to track their results.  Try again using a dice cup and track the results.

Scotty

  • Alpha Strike Guru by appointment to the FWLM
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13758
muzzle velocity is key for KE based bullets, "AP" = armor piercing or "HVAP" = hyper-velocity AP

bullets that carry explosive charges, such as the HEAT munitions employed in the referenced RPG-7, carry their own source of damaging energy w/in them, and so do not need (nearly as much) muzzle velocity

http://wiki.worldoftanks.com/Ammo

Justify that autocannons do not fire high explosive ammunition.

Or rather, justify why you think autocannons must be firing AP.
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

CloaknDagger

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3791
Justify that autocannons do not fire high explosive ammunition.

Or rather, justify why you think autocannons must be firing AP.

They are firing armor-piercing rounds so that they can pierce armor.

Scotty

  • Alpha Strike Guru by appointment to the FWLM
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13758
Then why, pray tell, do they not actually pierce armor, and we have a separate ammo type for that?
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

CloaknDagger

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3791
Then why, pray tell, do they not actually pierce armor, and we have a separate ammo type for that?

They do pierce armor, doing 2, 5, 10, or 20 damage, with a chance for a critical hit.

There are, for standard ACs, more advanced armor piercing rounds, but the reason they aren't common is because of the drawbacks: Poor accuracy, low ammo supply, and really, poor armor piercing too.

Scotty

  • Alpha Strike Guru by appointment to the FWLM
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13758
That's not piercing.  Or rather, standard autocannons are exactly as armor piercing as an SRM - that is to say, not at all, unless anything would have pierced the armor.

If anything, the fact that BattleTech armor is ablative rather than a pass/fail penetration test goes to show that autocannon ammunition is not armor piercing.

The fact that there is dedicated armor piercing ammunition (which is still really bad at what it does) shows us even more emphatically that autocannon ammo is not armor piercing.

So, with that in mind, muzzle velocity is not an object with autocannon ammunition and classes.
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

evilauthor

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2709
Okay, someone tell me something.

Given how crappy everyone knows the lighter vanilla ACs are and all the efforts the devs put into trying to keep the them viable... why NOT introduce new ammo that's an out and out improvement? Say Precision or Armor Piercing (or an ammo type that combines both) without the ammo reduction penalties? They don't even have to unbalance games set in earlier eras as the ammo can just be marked "Not available before such and such date".

This way, the weapon performance can be straight up buffed so as to compete with current gear while preserving the Holy Grail of Not Changing Any TRO Stats.

ialdabaoth

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 532
So, has anyone just tried upping light autocannon damage and heat, with no other changes? I.e.:

Light Autocannon - 1 crit, 6 tons, 5 damage, 1 heat, 8/16/24 range
Autocannon - 4 crit, 8 tons, 10 damage, 3 heat, 6/12/18 range
Heavy Autocannon - 7 crit, 12 tons, 15 damage, 5 heat, 5/10/15 range
Assault Autocannon - 10 crit, 14 tons, 20 damage, 7 heat, 3/6/9 range

FedComGirl

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4447
That is still not average.  I suspect you actually roll more than minimum on the cluster hit chart than you believe you do but because it is more memorable when you roll minimum that is why you want to use it.  The only other explanations are your dice really do have a physical defect that causes them to roll extremes with a tendency towards the low extreme or you've got your subconcious so conditioned that you don't even notice you're using rolling techniques to influence the results of your dice.  I've actually witnessed the latter first hand.

Sure but my average is still not your average. I've used new dice, old dice, dice from other game, and dice on the computer. I've played games where higher wins and games were lower wins. And most of the time I roll opposite of what I need towards the lowest good result.

Quote
Taharqa is one of the developers for MegaMek and the most avid defender of the MegaMek team's RNG.  And yeah AIs tend to cheat in computer games.

Oh. Okay. That's cool. It was fun while the puter worked.  I suppose they do but mine was blatant about it. Especially in Axis & Allies.
 
Quote
The artillery cannons I can't say much against.  They don't need Flechette ammunition since their standard round is Area Effect.

True but Flechette does do more damage to infantry.

Quote
Plasma Rifles are also nice general use weapons.

True.

Quote
Flammers I'm a bit mixed on.  With some of the changes they've made to Infantry I don't like getting that close anymore.  Still 4d6 does a lot to make it worth the exchange.

Yeah, rules changes have made getting close more dangerous. Although, based on the RPG they really should be a lot more dangerous than they are now.

Quote
Which the Gauss Rifle can still do against any mech not using hardened armor.  Which also provides just enough protection to survive a standard AC-20 hit to the head.  Ferro Lamelor doesn't provide enough damage reduction to make a head hit from a Gauss Rifle survivable.

True but the AC/20's greater damage can still kill more in one shot than the Gauss Rifle can. But it's got to get in range first so it's better in close quarters.

Quote
The reason is that most of them were made up after the fact to try and make things come out to their published stats.

It still matches up with other weapons and their results.

Quote
The proposed changes I'm advocating still make the ACs heavier than their tank cannon counterparts and frankly still make them slightly sub optimal but in the testing I've managed to do with my proposed changes(all except the ammunition count and range changes) I don't find myself quite so willing to put something else in place of the AC.  I have to think about it a lot more and what it is I want to do.  I don't have that with the current stats.

I'm not seeing it. The lower AC/s have more range and higher rate of fire than the same size Cannons. The higher ACs have a higher rate of fire but lower range than the same size Cannons. To do that they need to be stronger than Cannons, the lower AC/s especially because of the added range. 

Quote
Go ahead and just roll your dice a few times with no particular goal other than to track their results.  Try again using a dice cup and track the results.

I'd have to dig them out.

Sabelkatten

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6984
So, has anyone just tried upping light autocannon damage and heat, with no other changes? I.e.:

Light Autocannon - 1 crit, 6 tons, 5 damage, 1 heat, 8/16/24 range
Autocannon - 4 crit, 8 tons, 10 damage, 3 heat, 6/12/18 range
Heavy Autocannon - 7 crit, 12 tons, 15 damage, 5 heat, 5/10/15 range
Assault Autocannon - 10 crit, 14 tons, 20 damage, 7 heat, 3/6/9 range
A quick look through the thread shows several. The link to mine was in post #9.
My solution.

It works, it's simple, it doesn't change any existing designs (other than a few getting oversinked).
...and yes, I've tested it on the table.

evilauthor

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2709
So, has anyone just tried upping light autocannon damage and heat, with no other changes? I.e.:

Light Autocannon - 1 crit, 6 tons, 5 damage, 1 heat, 8/16/24 range
Autocannon - 4 crit, 8 tons, 10 damage, 3 heat, 6/12/18 range
Heavy Autocannon - 7 crit, 12 tons, 15 damage, 5 heat, 5/10/15 range
Assault Autocannon - 10 crit, 14 tons, 20 damage, 7 heat, 3/6/9 range

Your Light AC is still a bit heavy for the damage it does, but MY GOD can you pack these in on designs with more tonnage than crit space. The Mauler comes to mind since it'd be packing four of these.

But again, this has the problem of introducing more new weaponry when the issue is trying to keep the old ones viable. And if these are the old weapons with a new label and perhaps new ammo to explain the bump in damage and heat... then why aren't the Heavy and Assault ACs getting the same damage buff as the lighter ones?

monbvol

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13326
  • I said don't look!
Sure but my average is still not your average. I've used new dice, old dice, dice from other game, and dice on the computer. I've played games where higher wins and games were lower wins. And most of the time I roll opposite of what I need towards the lowest good result.

The average of 1, 1, 1, 1, 11 is still 3, not 1.

Quote
Oh. Okay. That's cool. It was fun while the puter worked.  I suppose they do but mine was blatant about it. Especially in Axis & Allies.

Some are pretty blatant about it and more obvious about it depending on difficulty settings.
 
Quote
True but Flechette does do more damage to infantry.

My copy of TacOps says Artillery Cannons get their own specialty ammunition without listing any specialty ammunition for them.  So for killing infantry I guess it depends on which Artillery Cannon versus which AC you are talking about.

Quote
True.

Yeah, rules changes have made getting close more dangerous. Although, based on the RPG they really should be a lot more dangerous than they are now.

I used to love using flamers for setting screening fires to help me control LOS and keep infantry and combat vehicles at bay.  I still prefer them to machine guns because even if they are less effective at doing that now they can still do it.

Quote
True but the AC/20's greater damage can still kill more in one shot than the Gauss Rifle can. But it's got to get in range first so it's better in close quarters.

The Gauss Rifle only has a minimum range of 2.  It is another case of being hard for me to not side with the alternative(once available) versus the AC.

Quote
It still matches up with other weapons and their results.

I think neither of us is going to convince the other on our stance.

Quote
I'm not seeing it. The lower AC/s have more range and higher rate of fire than the same size Cannons. The higher ACs have a higher rate of fire but lower range than the same size Cannons. To do that they need to be stronger than Cannons, the lower AC/s especially because of the added range. 

Light Rifle is 3 tons.  AC-2 under revisions 4 tons.  Medium Rifle 5 tons.  AC-5 under revisions 6 tons.  Heavy Rifle 8 tons.  AC-10 under revisions 10 tons.  So still heavier.  Range sorts itself out well enough.

Quote
I'd have to dig them out.

I think it will be a worthwhile experiment for you.

FedComGirl

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4447
The average of 1, 1, 1, 1, 11 is still 3, not 1.

Which is the minimum for a LRM-10.

Quote
Some are pretty blatant about it and more obvious about it depending on difficulty settings.

I don't know about the setting but it only let my planes land on the carrier once.

 
Quote
My copy of TacOps says Artillery Cannons get their own specialty ammunition without listing any specialty ammunition for them.  So for killing infantry I guess it depends on which Artillery Cannon versus which AC you are talking about.

Ah. The PDF changes the rules some. You can tell by the sentence just above about aerospace units no doing damage in surrounding hexes regardless of any special munitions used. Indicating that aerospace units using artillery cannons can use special ammo. The original Print Editions says that Artillery Cannons can use the same munitions as conventional artillery of the same class. That's why I was saying they could use Flechette ammo.

Quote
I used to love using flamers for setting screening fires to help me control LOS and keep infantry and combat vehicles at bay.  I still prefer them to machine guns because even if they are less effective at doing that now they can still do it.

They are nice.

Quote
The Gauss Rifle only has a minimum range of 2.  It is another case of being hard for me to not side with the alternative(once available) versus the AC.

True but the AC/20 does 5 more points of damage. That can be the difference between instant death and being given a chance to surrender.

Quote
I think neither of us is going to convince the other on our stance.

I think you're right.

Quote
Light Rifle is 3 tons.  AC-2 under revisions 4 tons.  Medium Rifle 5 tons.  AC-5 under revisions 6 tons.  Heavy Rifle 8 tons.  AC-10 under revisions 10 tons.  So still heavier.  Range sorts itself out well enough.

Not heavy enough.
Light Rifle Cannon, weighs 3 tons and fires 1 round to a range of 12 hexes.
AC/2 weighs 6 tons, fires at least 2 rounds to a range of 24 hexes.
UAC/2 weighs 7 tons, fires at least 4 rounds to a range of 25 hexes.

The differences between the AC and UAC is that the UAC was reinforced enough to withstand rapid firing. It gains 1 hex of range as a result. Compared to the LRC though the AC doubles the rate of fire and the range it can hit. (Actually, it more than doubles since the LRC can't fire at LOS. The only way for a Cannon to compete with the AC/2 in range is to use a Tank Cannon in conjunction with the Iron Sights Rule.) In order to fire so much further and faster the AC/2 has to be reinforced a whole lot more. As a consequence the AC/2 is double the weight of the LFC.

The AC/5 doesn't fire as far compared to the MRC so it doesn't need to be reinforced as much. So it only gains 3 tons. The AC/10 and AC/20s start losing range compared to the HRC so they don't need to be as reinforced as much either but they all fire at least twice as much so they still require some reinforcement.

Quote
I think it will be a worthwhile experiment for you.

Maybe. If I decide I need to punish myself I'll let you know how it goes.  :)

monbvol

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13326
  • I said don't look!
Which is the minimum for a LRM-10.

Average is probably one of the most misused words there is.  It really is about finding the middle ground between two extremes.  Often times in probability analysis that also happens to include the most likely result to be achieved.

Quote
I don't know about the setting but it only let my planes land on the carrier once.

It does depend on the particular game.

Quote
Ah. The PDF changes the rules some. You can tell by the sentence just above about aerospace units no doing damage in surrounding hexes regardless of any special munitions used. Indicating that aerospace units using artillery cannons can use special ammo. The original Print Editions says that Artillery Cannons can use the same munitions as conventional artillery of the same class. That's why I was saying they could use Flechette ammo.

They took that away pretty quickly, along with the -4 for targeting hexes, because they realized how broken it was.

Quote
They are nice.

Despite ensuring PBIs can take their pound of flesh in the exchange probably still one of the best anti infantry weapons there is.

Quote
True but the AC/20 does 5 more points of damage. That can be the difference between instant death and being given a chance to surrender.

Since that difference will only come into play on thinly armored vehicles it is something I can live with.

Quote
I think you're right.

Seems likely.

Quote
Not heavy enough.
Light Rifle Cannon, weighs 3 tons and fires 1 round to a range of 12 hexes.
AC/2 weighs 6 tons, fires at least 2 rounds to a range of 24 hexes.
UAC/2 weighs 7 tons, fires at least 4 rounds to a range of 25 hexes.

One metric ton is more than it seems, especially considering that ACs are a whole tech rating higher than primitive cannons.  That seems plenty to imply that they are more robust.  Plus we'll never have enough objective information about how many actual individual rounds of ammunition ACs fire to make proper value judgements about how much of a rate of fire difference there is.

Quote
The differences between the AC and UAC is that the UAC was reinforced enough to withstand rapid firing. It gains 1 hex of range as a result. Compared to the LRC though the AC doubles the rate of fire and the range it can hit. (Actually, it more than doubles since the LRC can't fire at LOS. The only way for a Cannon to compete with the AC/2 in range is to use a Tank Cannon in conjunction with the Iron Sights Rule.) In order to fire so much further and faster the AC/2 has to be reinforced a whole lot more. As a consequence the AC/2 is double the weight of the LFC.

Considering that Ultra Autocannons are tech E versus C of the standards and don't weigh much more than their standard counterparts I'd say it doesn't take much weight when coupled with a higher tech base to improve rate of fire and range.

The AC/5 doesn't fire as far compared to the MRC so it doesn't need to be reinforced as much. So it only gains 3 tons. The AC/10 and AC/20s start losing range compared to the HRC so they don't need to be as reinforced as much either but they all fire at least twice as much so they still require some reinforcement.

Maybe. If I decide I need to punish myself I'll let you know how it goes.  :)
[/quote]

Bismarck

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 301
@FedComGirl -- seems sensical that standard classes of cannons would be about the same size, and saying such offers a framework for estimating the masses, max. ranges, and damages done... again, according to actual data for WWII Soviet cannon classes, and as reflected in TRO1945, caliber ~= damage; and from the math, and seemingly suggested from the fluff for WoT, caliber ~= range; which would imply, that plausible game numbers are "range = caliber = damage", all scaling similarly

@Scotty & CloakNDagger -- BT armor != standard steel plate; an AP round running into BT armor would still (seemingly) crack out a crater, the armor being "ablative"; and explosive ammo would blast out a crater; so perhaps currently-conventional AP & HEAT do damages which would be strikingly similar
their rules (not mine) = "everybody dies, and from death, some are selected to slavery"

foolish farmers fooled forth from farms, to the field, at (e.g.) Marathon, where many men met determined doom, and all others, identified, were ever after relentlessly pursued & hunted down, themselves, their families, their blood, per policy of "pasture-ization", by (e.g.) oath-sworn Hannibal, patiently, for prolonged protracted periods, to present -- those have been being The Rules, for many millennia

honor is politics... right ?

Scotty

  • Alpha Strike Guru by appointment to the FWLM
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13758
So, you're going to abandon every single one of your math points and try to bullshit "BT Armor isn't modern armor so I win"?

Please, try harder.
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

 

Register