Wild Theory: Fate of the Manei Domini and the Homeworlds

[Liam's Ghost]

We know that a portion of the Manei Domini got away during the Jihad.

We also know that the implants many of the Manei Domini used give them a very limited lifespan. Thus, the clock is ticking on them accomplishing anything before they die.

We further know that the Homeworld Clans were planning their big return, and their expected arrival time has long since passed.

And we further have multiple mentions of extremely destructive biological plagues in the fairly recent ISP3: Interstellar Expeditions. The Delphi Curse is actually a family of incredibly fast mutating virii with an 80 to 90% fatality rate (in fact there's hints that it may have already been weaponized). The world of Murrain suffered a plague so widespread it killed almost every living thing on the planet, to the point where the once habitable world doesn't have enough plant life left to generate oxygen for a breathable atmosphere.

And of course there's Mayadi.

So, we have Manei Domini created for one purpose, low on resources and manpower, with time running out until they face failure in their very reason for existing.

We have homeworld clans, now decades past their deadline for invasion.

And just in case stuff like Galax, Alarion, and Galedon didn't get the point across, we've got a text that not only wonders on the fate of the Manei Domini, and specifically has nothing to say about ANYTHING that might be too close to the homeworlds, but also helpfully points out (again) just how devastating bioweapons can be by rolling out some fresh examples.

In universe it's all coincidence, from a narrative standpoint it tends to point me at one conclusion.

The Manei Domini, in the end, won. Don't bother waiting for Clan Invasion MK II. It's not going to happen. They're all dead.

[Mecha-Anchovy]

My username is Mecha-Anchovy, and I approve of this theory.

But seriously, well done. :)

[Frabby]

I don't see this working.

The Clan homeworlds are notably barren and hardly suitable for colonisation. The Wars of Reaving didn't improve this. So unlike your average open-environment Inner Sphere world that the Word and previously ComStar could study literally for centuries, you have barren wasteland planets with closed, self-sufficient enclaves. How are you going to wage biological warfare here, especially if you didn't even know much about those planet before they radically changed everything in the Wars of Reaving?
And then there's the fact that the Scientist Caste seems to be at least as skilled in this field as anything the WoB have (or more likely, had), with fresh field experience from the Wars of Reaving. Skills + Experience + Clan mindset, plus the above circumstances, mean the WoB has little if any chance to successfully do anything here.

[MadCapellan]

I don't know, Frabby.  If the Clan homeworlds have only a limited amount of habitable space, I should think it'd be that much easier for a biological attack to target and eliminate any habitable environs.

I don't think the Clans' military prowess would really factor in at all.  If the plan is to deliver a killer biological or chemical agent, then all that is necessary would be to deliver it to the surface, and the Blakists would have the element of surprise.  I don't find Liam's theory far-fetched at all.

[FedComGirl]

Interesting but I can't see it happening.

The remaining home clans blast anything appearing to be from the IS. The Manei Domini would get blasted too. They might be able to take out one world but then they'd be dead too. I think the reasons for the home clans not invading are either not strong enough or they decided the IS isn't worth it. Or both. The Clans suffered massive casualties during the reevings. It'd take a very long time to rebuild. A few decades is wishful thinking. Especially when they'd have to go through IS Clans that out number them before they even face IS forces. They're either still building up their forces or they decided it wasn't worth it. Presuming they're even still around. They could have had another inter clan war and are no longer capable of invading the IS. That or the Tetatae invaded.

[marauder648]

I'd like to think we'll see another wave of clan invasions but they did cripple themselves with the wars of reavening so if anything its going to be a long time delayed.

[Captain Jonah]

Where did the MD go, and by extension the survivors of the WoB.

Fanatics willing to give up their own bodies for the cause, they did not run away to die on some forgotten world. So what happened to them?

Post Jihad and prior to the Blackout Comstar was showing signs of the kind of fanatical religion that had led them to the whole WoB problem in the first place. Was this Comstar returning to its earlier mentality or was this the WoB re-infiltrating its old brotherhood. How many Word believers escaped the end of the Jihad and settled down in some quiet corner then moved back into Comstar or the Republic. How many thousands or millions of people on Terra and the inner worlds are the children of these true believers who kept their faith secret.
The jihad was 50 years before the blackout. 50 years means that the last of the Jihad leaders are getting close to death from old age, they would need to act and turn loose the next generation of believers while they were still able to control events. Had nothing happened by 3150 or 3160 the last of the Jihad leaders would be dead of old age. So were the last few left with no choice but to strike while they still could.

The reports of the Blackout just cry “Inside job”. The experts are Comstar and they spend years pretending to fix the problem. Any solution or replacement of hardware fails again a few days later, this suggests an active and ongoing act of sabotage. When some young Tech solves the problem which should in theory restore the HPG net and return Comstar to power he is grabbed by “Comstar” and vanishes. Every attempt to repeat his work fails within a few days, has he been made to talk so the saboteurs know how he did it and can now counter it?

Comstar has limited finances, the distrust of the Inner Sphere, they are watched by everyone and should have limited resources. However they were still able to apparently rebuild a military arm. But did Comstar rebuild an army or is this an existing army being rebadged to serve the cause as Comstar itself is converted back to the Word of Blake.

Reading the 3145 publications so far there are hints and suggestions, unknown “pirates” with unknown mech designs, raiders who cannot be captured alive. Are the three legged mechs coming from inside the fortress or are they coming from an otherwise unknown but advanced world somewhere outside of what remains of the Republic?

Where do the Fidelis come from, who are they. Their troopers follow orders unquestionably and execute their assignments with an alacrity and competency that shames so-called professional soldiers. So almost fanatical dedication perhaps. Extreme hatred for Clan Falcon and now Clan Wolf, have they fought other clans yet, is that hatred for all clans? Where have we seen that before. Extreme technical competence, repairing and improving mechs beyond the ability of the Republic. Where have we seen that level of technical ability aside from the clans?
A large, powerful military unit. Never seen before, appears from nowhere and seems to have significant logistics support since they are repairing and maintaining mechs the republican remnant cannot.

I do not think it is a question of where have the MD and WoB gone. I don’t think they have gone anywhere. I think we just do not recognize them.  :-X

[monbvol]

We know that a portion of the Manei Domini got away during the Jihad.

We also know that the implants many of the Manei Domini used give them a very limited lifespan. Thus, the clock is ticking on them accomplishing anything before they die.

We further know that the Homeworld Clans were planning their big return, and their expected arrival time has long since passed.

And we further have multiple mentions of extremely destructive biological plagues in the fairly recent ISP3: Interstellar Expeditions. The Delphi Curse is actually a family of incredibly fast mutating virii with an 80 to 90% fatality rate (in fact there's hints that it may have already been weaponized). The world of Murrain suffered a plague so widespread it killed almost every living thing on the planet, to the point where the once habitable world doesn't have enough plant life left to generate oxygen for a breathable atmosphere.

And of course there's Mayadi.

So, we have Manei Domini created for one purpose, low on resources and manpower, with time running out until they face failure in their very reason for existing.

We have homeworld clans, now decades past their deadline for invasion.

And just in case stuff like Galax, Alarion, and Galedon didn't get the point across, we've got a text that not only wonders on the fate of the Manei Domini, and specifically has nothing to say about ANYTHING that might be too close to the homeworlds, but also helpfully points out (again) just how devastating bioweapons can be by rolling out some fresh examples.

In universe it's all coincidence, from a narrative standpoint it tends to point me at one conclusion.

The Manei Domini, in the end, won. Don't bother waiting for Clan Invasion MK II. It's not going to happen. They're all dead.

Even if there were some odd survivors due to being sufficiently isolated, yeah close enough to all to make no difference.

Interesting but I can't see it happening.

The remaining home clans blast anything appearing to be from the IS. The Manei Domini would get blasted too. They might be able to take out one world but then they'd be dead too. I think the reasons for the home clans not invading are either not strong enough or they decided the IS isn't worth it. Or both. The Clans suffered massive casualties during the reevings. It'd take a very long time to rebuild. A few decades is wishful thinking. Especially when they'd have to go through IS Clans that out number them before they even face IS forces. They're either still building up their forces or they decided it wasn't worth it. Presuming they're even still around. They could have had another inter clan war and are no longer capable of invading the IS. That or the Tetatae invaded.

It is a lot harder to blast an incoming Dropship or Small Craft than the Clans want to let on.

[Wolflord]

The Fidelis are the last remnant of the Smoke Jaguars.

New Comstar = Old WoB = Old Old Comstar, probably true  and I approve if it is.

MD => Clan Homeworlds and wipe everyone out with Bioweapons, possible although I'd miss the Star Adders.

[Mecha-Anchovy]

The Fidelis are the last remnant of the Smoke Jaguars.

I thought there were arguments over how canon that is?

[Wolflord]

I thought there were arguments over how canon that is?

Seems quite blatant in ER3145 judging by the emblem they are using. See page 44 and check the pattern behind the dagger star on the shield then compare to the old smoke jaguar emblem.

[caioaf]

I thought there were arguments over how canon that is?

Era Report 3145 pg.  163

all Fidelis characters automatically receive a –5-TP Dark Secret Trait, regarding their origins as descendants of Clan Smoke Jaguar.

[Sir Chaos]

I don't know, Frabby.  If the Clan homeworlds have only a limited amount of habitable space, I should think it'd be that much easier for a biological attack to target and eliminate any habitable environs.

I don't think the Clans' military prowess would really factor in at all.  If the plan is to deliver a killer biological or chemical agent, then all that is necessary would be to deliver it to the surface, and the Blakists would have the element of surprise.  I don't find Liam's theory far-fetched at all.

Plus, with this single-use super jump thingy they have, they´d stand a good chance of getting past any Clan WarShips standing guard anywhere between the IS and Homeworlds - there´d be no way to intercept them before they reach the target system, and then they´d only need one bioweapon-carrying dropship - or ASF, if the stuff is potent enough - to crashland somewhere on the target world and release the weapon...

[Captain Jonah]

The Fidelis are the last remnant of the Smoke Jaguars.

Hey stop bring those annoying facts and things into a perfectly good conspiracy theory  ;D

New Comstar = Old WoB = Old Old Comstar, probably true  and I approve if it is.

This bit seems a lot more solid as far as theories go. No idea where all those cyber zombies went to unless they are packed in some form of suspended animation just waiting for a wakeup call to restart the war.

[RyuWanderfalke]

Wasn't there some concensus established a while ago that it would have been nigh impossible for the WoB to defeat the HWs even WITH the use of WMDs and BEFORE the Jihad?
How on Earth would the pathetic remnants be able to do it, especially with the "TAINT, TAINT, KILL IT WITH FIRE!" attitude in the HW nowadays?

[Firesprocket]

Wasn't there some concensus established a while ago that it would have been nigh impossible for the WoB to defeat the HWs even WITH the use of WMDs and BEFORE the Jihad?
How on Earth would the pathetic remnants be able to do it, especially with the "TAINT, TAINT, KILL IT WITH FIRE!" attitude in the HW nowadays?

Resources in terms of production, infrastructure, and basic necessity of life are limited in comparison to th IS.  The source(s) are not as extensive that any WoB would to seed.  Consequently poisoning one natural resource could easily project to damage more in Clan space then a comparable IS planet even if they got caught.  It didn't take a lot of Burrocks to poison water supplies, if we give the WoB at least the ability to pull off something similar it isn't far fetched they could do something more covertly.

[RyuWanderfalke]

For that they would still need to get there undetected and remaing being undetected in their activities. Both cases don't seem very likely.

[Firesprocket]

For that they would still need to get there undetected and remaing being undetected in their activities. Both cases don't seem very likely.

subterfuge and misdirection are as much tools for MD as overt brute force.  It wouldn't be impossible.  Who is to say they didn't invent a personal FTL craft to get them there.  I find the whole idea here far fetched.  I think it is more likey that some idea of sanity prevailed and that the HW clans realized it would be impractical to invade due to inadequate numbers of personel and/or resources to build the forces necessary to build an invasion force that could succeed.

[RyuWanderfalke]

subterfuge and misdirection are as much tools for MD as overt brute force.  It wouldn't be impossible.  Who is to say they didn't invent a personal FTL craft to get them there.

Well, atm most of them seem to be space vagabunds. Maybe that kinda prevents them from inventing fancy new stuff. Just a wild guess... :P

[MadCapellan]

Wasn't there some concensus established a while ago that it would have been nigh impossible for the WoB to defeat the HWs even WITH the use of WMDs and BEFORE the Jihad?
How on Earth would the pathetic remnants be able to do it, especially with the "TAINT, TAINT, KILL IT WITH FIRE!" attitude in the HW nowadays?

I never saw any consensus on the subject.  People just seemed to stop arguing with the handful of people insisting it was true.

[RyuWanderfalke]

As I said, "consensus".   ^-^

[Liam's Ghost]

Wasn't there some concensus established a while ago that it would have been nigh impossible for the WoB to defeat the HWs even WITH the use of WMDs and BEFORE the Jihad?
How on Earth would the pathetic remnants be able to do it, especially with the "TAINT, TAINT, KILL IT WITH FIRE!" attitude in the HW nowadays?

Not even remotely. Some, however, have confused a manei domini victory with conquering the homeworlds.

The goal isn't to subjugate the clans, defeat the clans, and it certainly isn't to outlast the clans. None of these are actually possible. The goal is to remove the homeworlds from the equation. That's a different kettle of fish. You see, in the Inner Sphere, the Blakists were held back by the desire to keep the inner sphere reasonably intact. They have no such limitation here.

Remove the need to actually have to fight a prolonged battle, and the resources you need to accomplish your goals are much smaller. At Galax during the Jihad, the Blakists didn't even manage to get any boots on the ground, and they still killed the planet with a bioweapon. It's not a question of defeating all the warships, mechs, elementals, and all the other military forces, it's just a question of getting the packages to the target, which might be as broad as "the atmosphere of the planet in question".

Hell, the first strikes could come from simply sending in unarmed ships and allowing them to be captured. With a long enough incubation time, the plagues (for maximum effect, you want to use several different ones, to reduce the chance of successful treatment) could be a pandemic before the clans even realize the threat.

One way or another, the Manei Domini will die. But survival isn't a condition necessary for achieving victory.

[Auman]

The real problem with this theory is that it doesn't factor in the Illuminati, resurgent Rim Republican Army, the Wolverines, Agricorp or the Tetatae.

[Nerroth]

I suspect that whatever the reason is behind the enduring silence from the coreward DP as of 3145, whaever happened in Hansa space from about 3090 onwards may have had a crucial role in defining it.

Perhaps the Adder-led attempt to subjugate the Hanseatic League went much less smoothly than expected? There had been a Blakist presence in and around the region for a while; while it was supposedly gone as of the late 3070s, it could be that some of the surviving Shadow Divisions decided to use it as a good place to bleed the Homeworld Clans dry.

Or, alternatively, perhaps the invasion of the Hansa went well... but while the four Homeworld Clans were committed to the assault, Strana Mechty and the other worlds in the Kerensky Cluster might have fallen to some sort of calamity. In which case, they would find themselves in the same situation as their Council of Six and Scorpion counterparts; forced to migrate what remained of their assets to a distant Occupation Zone.


That latter option could be a way to keep the Imperio alive for a while longer, since the Adders and others would be far too busy trying to re-establish theselves within whatever amount of territory they had managed to claim from the Hansa to try and muster enough forces to threaten Nueva Castile. (And if the League itself still held onto a portion of their own worlds by the time of the Homeworld calamity, they might be able to do just enough to survive with the planets still under their control, at least for a while longer.)

[TigerShark]

I suspect that whatever the reason is behind the enduring silence from the coreward DP as of 3145, whaever happened in Hansa space from about 3090 onwards may have had a crucial role in defining it.

Perhaps the Adder-led attempt to subjugate the Hanseatic League went much less smoothly than expected? There had been a Blakist presence in and around the region for a while; while it was supposedly gone as of the late 3070s, it could be that some of the surviving Shadow Divisions decided to use it as a good place to bleed the Homeworld Clans dry.

Or, alternatively, perhaps the invasion of the Hansa went well... but while the four Homeworld Clans were committed to the assault, Strana Mechty and the other worlds in the Kerensky Cluster might have fallen to some sort of calamity. In which case, they would find themselves in the same situation as their Council of Six and Scorpion counterparts; forced to migrate what remained of their assets to a distant Occupation Zone.


That latter option could be a way to keep the Imperio alive for a while longer, since the Adders and others would be far too busy trying to re-establish theselves within whatever worlds they claimed from the Hansa to try and muster enough forces to threaten Nueva Castile.

Could be that the Imperio discovered the sabotage attempts and grew a virulent hatred of all things Clan, like the Fidelis. They have the knowledge and means to implement planet-wide destruction on key Homeworld planets.

[Mecha-Anchovy]

Wasn't there some concensus established a while ago that it would have been nigh impossible for the WoB to defeat the HWs even WITH the use of WMDs and BEFORE the Jihad?

Well, some people said it, but saying doesn't make it so. ;)

[TigerShark]

The Blakists did attempt to 'invade' the Homeworlds, but their flotilla was discovered and neutralized. Their equipment became part of the Jaguar's forces, if I remember correctly. It's likely that more contact was made in the meantime, but who knows?

[cold1]

What do EMP missiles and weaponized HPG systems do to cybernetics?   }:)
As stated before, the homeworld clans are not slow on the up take.  If you whack a planet with an asteroid or bio weapon they'll figure it out in time to employ military force before you do it too much more.  You might kill Strana Mechty or Tokasha but you better run like Hell afterwards because the remaining clans are actually the smart ones.

They also very well may take the gloves off the scientists (if they haven't already).  Shoot a WoB warship from a Septicemia carried HPG, all the cybernetics aboard go haywire, sorry about your super soldiers.  Land on planet iATMs loaded with IMP rounds, fry the mech and the pilot.

I say the clans take it on the chin and fall down in round one, get back up and KO the MD by round seven.

[Wildonion]

What do EMP missiles and weaponized HPG systems do to cybernetics?   }:)
As stated before, the homeworld clans are not slow on the up take.  If you whack a planet with an asteroid or bio weapon they'll figure it out in time to employ military force before you do it too much more.  You might kill Strana Mechty or Tokasha but you better run like Hell afterwards because the remaining clans are actually the smart ones.

They also very well may take the gloves off the scientists (if they haven't already).  Shoot a WoB warship from a Septicemia carried HPG, all the cybernetics aboard go haywire, sorry about your super soldiers.  Land on planet iATMs loaded with IMP rounds, fry the mech and the pilot.

I say the clans take it on the chin and fall down in round one, get back up and KO the MD by round seven.

But the damage dealt in those seven rounds could still explain the delay in the second invasion. The MD might not have achieved their goal, but they might have inadvertently given the Inner Sphere more time to advance their own tech--and beat up on each other.

[Liam's Ghost]

Killing the Manei domini is irrelevant. Why does everybody keep assuming that the Manei Domini have to somehow survive to win?

And why in gods name would the Manei Domini attack just one world in the first wave? They would hit everywhere at once, or as close to it as humanly possible. Once they're in the atmosphere, the game is done, any damage their troops do on the ground is pure gravy.

Look, biowarfare is terrifying. To counter it, you have to eliminate all possible chance of contact, as Galax demonstrates, that means you have to keep every manei domini from getting so much as a tiny canister into the atmosphere. The ENTIRE atmosphere. The blakists have demonstrated their ability to create bugs that can adapt and live within completely alien biospheres (on Galax, every lifeform on the planet was turned into a carrier for the plague).  So you have to be able to police the entire planet from intrusion which you may (in fact, probably will) never see coming. How do you protect an entire planet from purely inertial objects maybe no bigger than a phonebook? These capsules don't need to be that big, and they certainly don't need to be made easy to detect.

And if you can't prevent infection (and you CAN'T), you now have to fight alien bugs genetically engineered to kill you before it spreads beyond your ability to control. And not those prissy targeted bugs the Society created. These things target everything, can live in everything, and it's not going to be a single disease, because that would be idiotic. You've got multiple bugs attacking from multiple vectors, and any one of which is enough to lose the game if you can't contain it.

And the fact is, you can't contain it, because odds are, by the time you realize you're under biological attack, it's already spread beyond your control to contain it. The contagious period and the symptomatic period are not the same thing. For example by the time the Combine realized what the curse of Galedon was, not only was Galedon already gone, but the contagion had already made it to An Ting, which went the same way.

So not only will the steps necessary to stop the attacks not save the targeted planets, the clans won't even realize what's happening until it's too late to to do anything about it.

The Clans will see the Manei Domini die, they will probably even get to kill large numbers of them. In fact the plagues will probably take years to run their course, but these are all cold comforts. The homeworlds will never threaten the inner sphere again.