Achilles 3145 upgrade

[Tai Dai Cultist]

A couple of threads elsewhere got me to thinking what would Kurita be doing with their fleet of Achilles attack ships in the 3145 era.  They were scraping together PWS squadrons as early as 3085, and the class was specifically mentioned as one of the ships desired for inclusion.

Yet as technology progressed, even the 3057 upgrade is, in my opinion, obsolete by 3145.  So here's my idea of how to bring the Achilles up to date:

Code: [Select]

Type: Military Aerodyne
Use: Pocket Warship Squadron, dedicated Fighter Hunter
Tech: Inner Sphere Advanced
Introduced: 32nd Century
Mass: 4,500 tons
Fuel: 300 tons (9,000)
Tons/Burn-Day: 1.84
Safe Thrust: 8
Maximum Thrust: 12
Heat Sinks: 169 DHS (338)
Structural Integrity: 17
Armor:
Nose: 400  Right/Left Wing: 375  Aft: 367

Cargo:
Bay 1: Small Craft (2)
Bay 2: Cargo (143 tons)

Escape Pods: 6
Life Boats: 0
Crew: 5 officers, 18 non-rated, 8 gunners, 10 bay personnel

Ammunition: 32 rounds Gauss Rifle (4 tons), 50 rounds AC/20 (10 tons), 132 shots Artemis capable LRM-20 (22 tons)

Notes: Equipped with 76.5 tons of Heavy Ferro Aluminum armor, 45 tons Naval C3

Weapons by arc, type, and damage:
Nose: (96 heat)
LRM Bay: 4x LRM-20 with Artemis (72 rounds)  Damage: 64/64/64/-
PPC Bay: 2x ER PPC  Damage: 20/20/20/-
Autocannon Bay: 2x Gauss Rifle (32 rounds) Damage: 30/30/30/-
Pulse Laser Bay: 4x Large Variable Speed Pulse Lasers.  Damage: 40/28/-/-

R/L Wing: (79 heat w/o AMS)
LRM Bay: 2x LRM-20 with Artemis (24 rounds) Damage: 32/32/32/-
PPC Bay: 2x ER PPC, 2x Heavy PPC.  Damage: 40/40/20/-
Autocannon Bay: AC/20 (15 shots)  Damage: 20/-/-/-
3x AMS (108 rounds)

R/L Aft Wing: (42 heat)
PPC Bay:  1x ER PPC  Damage: 10/10/10/-
Autocannon Bay: 1x AC/20 (10 shots)  Damage: 20/-/-/-
Pulse Laser Bay: 2x Large VSP Laser  Damage: 20/14/-/-

Aft:  (21 heat w/o AMS)
LRM Bay: 1x LRM-20 w Artemis (12 shots)  Damage: 16/16/16/-
Autocannon Bay: 1x AC/20 (10 shots) Damage: 20/-/-/-
Pulse Laser Bay: 2x Medium Pulse Lasers.  Damage: 12/-/-/-
4x AMS  (144 shots)


Design choices as part of a Kuritan PWS squadron:
1) increase the survivability.
2) install Naval C3
3) improve firepower
4) keep it 'reasonable', and keep it Kuritan flavored.

Since the ship is intended to operate in the company of either an Okinawa or Vengeance (if not both), removing the 2 fighter cubicles is the obvious way to free up tonnage to make my intended modifications.  While I was at it, I decided to remove the marine platoon, too.  My version of the Achilles is meant to kill fighters, so boarding attacks won't be necessary.  Even less so in the company of Nekohono'o(s) who have that angle more than covered.  Still, I'm retaining the 2 small craft bays just in case it's worthwhile to carry 2 oozes worth of marines on board for some reason.  Plus it's simply handy to be able to ferry supplies and personnel between ships in the squadron.

Starting with priority 1, switching to Ferro-Aluminum seemed the obvious choice.  Once I started running the numbers, I ended up discovering that the TRO3057 Achilles is 384 tons underweight by TM construction rules, so that actually gives me an immense amount of room to work with adding armor tonnage as well.  So naturally, it went to max allowable for 17 SI.  Under the tenet of priority 4, I decided to not increase the SI for even more armor.  It keeps it from being more munchy, and should ICly keep the DCA's development costs down by using the same hull they've been producing.

Point two works out to be simple at first.  1% of the ship's mass, check.  Remember to pay double tonnage for all artemis and such.  Check.  The real kicker was realizing Naval C3 has a pretty fundamental difference from regular C3.. it only works fully with energy weapons and guided missiles.  MRMs and ballistic weapons can suck it, apparently.  So I'll have to keep that in mind for picking the updated arsenal.

I knew LRMs would end up figuring prominently, being long range weapons that fully benefit from Naval C3.  Yet 3145 appears to be the age of full-on gimmick armors, so a craft as big as a dropship may as well be able to dish out all 3 damage types to minimize chances of being rock/paper/scissor'd.   The AC/20s might be a curious choice, and honestly I'm not sure I love the choice.  It could have been big honkin' MRM bays which have medium range and thus more compatibility with C3 than short-range-only AC/20s.. but honestly I liked the threshholding.  We're huntin' fighters, after all.  And as Kuritan as MRMs are, I believe AC/20s are just as Kuritan :)  Suitably low tech.. yet devastating.

 I also added on respectable AMS banks.  Not heavy enough to repel capital missiles, but heavy enough (and deep enough ammo bins) to really extend the Achilles' survivability against the ASFs it's meant to combat.  It's got the heat sinks to fire all 3 forward arcs, the aft arc, a wing aft arc, AND have 21 heat left over for AMS each round. 

With all this firepower and the heat sinks to use them, I tore up that tonnage available.  But 3145 upgrade still has more cargo than the 3057 upgrade, and it's got a LOT less people on board.  The 3057's endurance is 54 days w/o resupply, my 3145 upgrade is 218 days!  Even more of a good thing that it's got small craft available to help share rolls of TP and such with the rest of the squadron.

It may be fundamentally a fool's errand to try to make a dropship meant for killing modern ASFs.  It's raw firepower is such that it's credible at blasting respectable holes in dropships, as well.  I didn't go overboard on specifically anti-fighter weaponry to keep its options realistic.  I think a very plausible role for such a ship would be to be bodyguard to the carrier, or running wingman for a Taihou on an attack run.. it can delouse the PWS of fighters, and if none come to pester, it can add its own firepower to the attack run!


I welcome comments, criticisms, and suggestions :)


edit: standardized LRM 'salvos' as rounds, like they do in every TRO ever.

[CloaknDagger]

Well you made a mistake about the C3, it works with ballistics, they just get a lower range modifier.

As for your design, I feel that it doesn't use enough advanced tech.

Here's my version:

Code: [Select]

Class/Model/Name:  Achilles 3145
Tech:              Inner Sphere / 2582
Vessel Type:       Aerodyne DropShip
Rules:             Level 3, Standard design
Rules Set:         AeroTech2

Mass:              4,500 tons
Length:            125 meters
Power Plant:       Standard
Safe Thrust:       8
Maximum Thrust:    12
Armor Type:        *Heavy Ferro-Aluminium*
Armament:         
    4 I-Heavy Gauss Rifle*
   21 ER PPC + Capacitor*
   12 ELRM-20 (THB)
    6 ER PPC
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
==Overview:==
     The Achilles Class DropShip is one of the few vessels still in existence
that was designed primarily to combat other DropShips and AeroSpace Fighters.
Though incapable of atmospheric flight, the vessel is highly maneuverable in
space and can outrun any other existing DropShip and most heavy and medium
fighters.
     The design of the Achilles is relatively simple.  The ship masses 4,500
tons, with over half of the ship taken up by it extremely powerful Xevex-12s
interplanetary fusion drive system.  The ship has often been described as a
well-armed fusion drive, but this high-powered drive system has its problems.
When the drives are operating at full thrust, the engine begins to shudder and
vibrate intensely.  These vibrations become unbearable after prolonged use,
and have caused ammunition dependent weapons systems to misfeed.  The chance
of such misfeeds has been estimated at roughly three percent per minute that
the vibrations continue.  Once a misfeed occurs, the weapons system must be
manually cleared and reset.
     The interior of the Achilles is different than for most ships.  Instead
of having a few large decks, the vessel is constructed with many long, narrow
decks.  The three decks at the front of the ship are almost exclusively filled
with the long-range tracking and navigational systems and the forward weapons
bay.  Except for narrow access ways, there is little room to walk on these
decks.
     Just behind this section are the crew decks, which contain the quarters
for the ship's 60 personnel.  Also located here are the recreation rooms, mess
hall, med bay, laundry, and waste processing facilities.  Behind the crew
section is a large area for the ship's fuel tankage, the port and starboard
weapons bays, and ammunition storage.
     Beyond this is the control deck, where are located the ship's bridge, the
engineering control room, the main computer system, and communications gear.
The ship's massive fusion drive makes up the bulk of the rest of the ship.
Located on either side of the engine core is a small craft bay with a pair of
small craft cubicles in each.  The normal small craft complement is two
AeroSpace Fighters and two marine-bearing buses for use in boarding
operations.
     The Achilles is used to lead planetary assault forces and space defense
forces into combat. The ship's high maneuverability makes it an excellent
anti-Fighter ship.  In defensive operations, a common tactic is to lead a
Fighter group straight into an enemy fleet, headed towards the weakest ships.
The enemy Fighters usually attempt to stop the attacking Achilles, only to be
engaged from behind by the Fighters following the DropShip.
     In an offensive role, the ship usually follows the assaulting Fighter
group and hits enemy vessels engaged with friendly Fighters.  With its
tremendous firepower, the Achilles can take out enemy Fighters one at a time
of engage in a firefight with enemy DropShips.
     The Achilles is a rare DropShip that dates back to the early days of the
Star League.  It is the only surviving relative of the League's massive battle
cruisers, which did not survive the fighting of the early Succession Wars.
Because the First Succession War knocked out most of the facilities for
constructing the Achilles, the remaining ships have been maintained only by
those with access to enormous League equipment stockpiles.  Attempts have been
made to fit the ships with existing equipment, but so far, the results are not
promising.
     At present, House Kurita seems to possess the largest quantity of these
assault ships, with the rest spread thinly but evenly among the other four
Successor States.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class/Model/Name:  Achilles 3145
Mass:              4,500 tons

Equipment:                                                            Mass 
Power Plant, Drive & Control:                                        2,340.00
Thrust:  Safe Thrust: 8
      Maximum Thrust: 12
Structural Integrity: 17                                               382.50
Total Heat Sinks:    269 Double                                        152.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps:                                                     296.00
Bridge, Controls, Radar, Computer & Attitude Thrusters:                 34.00
Fire Control Computers:                                                 17.00
Food & Water:  (78 days supply)                                         20.00
Armor Type:  *Heavy Ferro-Aluminium*  (1,586 total armor pts)           76.50
                           Standard Scale Armor Pts
   Location:                            L / R
   Fore:                                530
   Left/Right Wings:                 396/396
   Aft:                                 264

Cargo:
   Bay 1:  Small Craft (1) with 2 doors                                200.00
   Bay 3:  Cargo (1) with 1 door                                       104.50
           Infantry (foot) Platoons (1)                                  5.00

Escape Pods:  4 (7 tons each)                                           28.00

Crew and Passengers:
      4 Officers (2 minimum)                                            40.00
      6 Crew (1 minimum)                                                42.00
      8 Gunners (8 minimum)                                             56.00
     33 Bay Personnel                                                     .00
Weapons and Equipment      Loc        SRV    MRV    LRV    ERV  Heat    Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4 I-Heavy Gauss Rifle*(80 rNose     9(88)  9(88)  9(88)     --    8    100.00
9 ER PPC + Capacitor*      Nose   14(135)14(135)14(135)     --  180     72.00
1 ELRM-20 (THB)(24 rounds) Nose     1(12)  1(12)  1(12)  1(12)   10     24.00
6 ER PPC + Capacitor*      L/RW     9(90)  9(90)  9(90)     --  240     96.00
5 ELRM-20 (THB)(104 rounds)L/RW     6(60)  6(60)  6(60)  6(60)  100    232.00
3 ER PPC                   L/RW(A)  3(30)  3(30)  3(30)     --   90     42.00
1 ELRM-20 (THB)(24 rounds) Aft      1(12)  1(12)  1(12)  1(12)   10     24.00
1 Lot Spare Parts (1.00%)                                               45.00
1 Naval C3                                                              45.00
1 8xAMS                                                                 26.50
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                                              Heat: 638       4,500.00
Tons Left:                                                                .00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost:        1,241,267,760 C-Bills
Battle Value:      21,636
Cost per BV:       57,370.48
Weapon Value:      16,510 (Ratio = .76)
Damage Factors:    SRV = 469;  MRV = 370;  LRV = 143;  ERV = 0
Maintenance:       Maintenance Point Value (MPV) = 76,291
                   (38,867 Structure, 25,950 Life Support, 11,474 Weapons)
                   Support Points (SP) = 22,732  (30% of MPV)
BattleForce2:      MP: 8,  Armor/Structure: 27 / 26
                   Damage PB/M/L: 54/54/54,  Overheat: 0
                   Class: DM;  Point Value: 216


So instead of just ERPPCs, I used ERPPCs with capacitors. Instead of Gauss Rifles, I used IHGRs, and instead of LRMs, I used ELRMs, especially since Artemis gets heavy with NC3, and the ELRMs can hit all the way to extreme range, and benefit more from NC3.

Also I kept the infantry. It's never a bad time to board a ship.

I had to reduce the extra crew to do this though. I have to ask, what tonnage of food and water did you use?

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Well you made a mistake about the C3, it works with ballistics, they just get a lower range modifier.

I knew that, but seeing how I worded it I can see how I made it sound like they didn't work at all.  AC/20s (when using range brackets) basically don't work with Naval C3 though, since short is the only range bracket they get.  Sort of a deliberate sub-optimal choice on my part.

As for your design, I feel that it doesn't use enough advanced tech.

Also I kept the infantry. It's never a bad time to board a ship.

I had to reduce the extra crew to do this though. I have to ask, what tonnage of food and water did you use?

I played around with iHGRs too, especially after seeing that DCMS Kamakiri variant.  I ended up liking a lower-tech feel.. but if you're going to go through the bother of redesigning or retrofitting there's also the school of thought to go ahead and go all out.  I like your ideas on how to modernize the weaponry, too.  It's interesting to see some different options.  Bling preferences aside, my version may well have too many short and medium ranged weapons for a C3 ship.

I dropped the infantry for a couple reasons.  One, Taihous already have a battalion of battle armor, and Nekohono'os have an entire regiment.  I don't know how many marine regiments the DCA has in relationship to PWS squadrons, but I assume it'd be challenging to fill every bunk on every ship as is.  Furthermore, there's the issue of organization.  A PWS uses a LOT of battle armor, but then you have this one off platoon of unarmored marines?  How do they fit into the command structure.. are they part of the battle armor regiment?  Part of the Achilles crew?  I cut them more for streamlining TO&E than to save tonnage & life support.  I thought that if I want to use an Achilles for a boarding action, t he Nekohono'o can send over a couple companies of battle armor in the 2 small craft cubicles for the duration of that mission.  And 2 companies of battle armor are going to make a much bigger difference than 1 foot platoon.

As for food and water (and air, and so on) endurance, I used SO pg 155.  Crew assigned to quarters consume 1/200th ton per crewman per day in expendibles.  Bay personnel consume 1/20th ton per person per day.  So my figure is assuming the ship is stocked to the gills with nothing but expendibles.  Of course, one might use some of that cargo space for other things like spare ammo or phat lewts from raids, so the endurance would suffer accordingly.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Here's my version...

After thinking on it for a day or so, you did convince me on the iHGRs.  An aerodyne is one heck of a sub-optimal choice for fighter-hunting.. since it must move before all fighters and has wide open blind spots.  Yes, it's meant to trail a gunship or carrier and punish fighters who come in for an attack run on that protected target.. but the fighters can usually avoid putting themselves in the sweet spot of all 3 of the Achilles' foreward arcs while making said run. So that means the 'off' wing will only get opportunity fire.. and if I use short range weapons I won't get (m)any.  And I have a luxuriously accommodating cargo space left over, I can convert all my autocannon bays to iHGRs for 40 tons.. which can easily just come out of that cargo.  I'm also paying 9 more tons to keep the ammo bins as deep, I can remove 9 DHS and end up exactly where I was before on heat.. can fire everything but an aft wing arc and have 21 heat left over for AMS.

 And not only am I increasing range, I'm increasing damage AND getting bigger threshholding hits.  It's win all around, with the possible exception of iHGRs being a rare thing for the Combine to have.  But then again, maybe 'plain' AC/20s are so obsolete by 3145 that maybe they're even more hard to come by than the big gauss.

I also think I like your armor placement better.  I made it more evenly distributed, figuring fighters will be swarming the ship.   However something with that much raw firepower will also draw fire from the bigger guns in the enemy fleet, so reinforcing the nose isn't a bad idea at all.  And by having more long range weapons, the ship can hang back and protect the aft more.

Code: [Select]

Achilles MkII (3145 upgrade)
Type: Military Aerodyne
Use: Pocket Warship Squadron, dedicated Fighter Hunter
Tech: Inner Sphere Advanced
Introduced: 32nd Century
Mass: 4,500 tons
Fuel: 300 tons (9,000)
Tons/Burn-Day: 1.84
Safe Thrust: 8
Maximum Thrust: 12
Heat Sinks: 160 DHS (320)
Structural Integrity: 17
Armor:
 Location:                            L / R
   Fore:                                530
   Left/Right Wings:                  396/396
   Aft:                                 264


Cargo:
Bay 1: Small Craft (2)
Bay 2: Cargo (103 tons)

Escape Pods: 6
Life Boats: 0
Crew: 5 officers, 18 non-rated, 8 gunners, 10 bay personnel

Ammunition: 92 rounds Improved Heavy Gauss Rifle (23 tons), 132 shots Artemis capable LRM-20 (22 tons), 360 rounds Anti-Missile System (30 tons)

Notes: Equipped with 76.5 tons of Heavy Ferro Aluminum armor, 45 tons Naval C3

Weapons by arc, type, and damage:
Nose: (98 heat)
LRM Bay: 4x LRM-20 with Artemis (72 rounds)  Damage: 64/64/64/-
PPC Bay: 2x ER PPC  Damage: 20/20/20/-
Autocannon Bay: 2x iHGR (32 rounds) Damage: 44/44/44/-
Pulse Laser Bay: 4x Large Variable Speed Pulse Lasers.  Damage: 40/28/-/-

R/L Wing: (74 heat w/o AMS)
LRM Bay: 2x LRM-20 with Artemis (24 rounds) Damage: 32/32/32/-
PPC Bay: 2x ER PPC, 2x Heavy PPC.  Damage: 50/50/20/-
Autocannon Bay: iHGR (16 rounds)  Damage: 22/22/22/-
Point Defense Bay: 3x AMS (108 rounds)

R/L Aft Wing: (37 heat)
PPC Bay:  1x ER PPC  Damage: 10/10/10/-
Autocannon Bay: 1x iHGR (12 rounds)  Damage: 22/22/22/-
Pulse Laser Bay: 2x Large VSP Laser  Damage: 20/14/-/-

Aft:  (16 heat w/o AMS)
LRM Bay: 1x LRM-20 w Artemis (12 rounds)  Damage: 16/16/16/-
Autocannon Bay: 1x iHGR (12 rounds) Damage: 22/22/22/-
Pulse Laser Bay: 2x Medium Pulse Lasers.  Damage: 12/-/-/-
Point Defense Bay: 4x AMS  (144 rounds)

I like how this Mk II came out.  It ends my Nagawasa envy :D

[truetanker]

Curious... What is your thoughts on upping the LRMs to MMLs? W/ or w/o Artemis.

Point: you can shoot at longrang, but have the ability to " Turkey shoot " SRMs at length.

TT

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Curious... What is your thoughts on upping the LRMs to MMLs? W/ or w/o Artemis.

Point: you can shoot at longrang, but have the ability to " Turkey shoot " SRMs at length.

TT

Well, I don't have anything against MMLs.. I've got the spare tonnage to afford the extra Artemises (even paying double for them) as well as the double load of SRM/LRM ammo.

The reason I went with LRMs is because of the 12 weapon 'limit' per facing.  Yes, there's rules covering the penalty for using 13 or more weapons per facing, but once you go down THAT rabbit hole you really start to get into horrible things that I'd think a reasonable opponent would find 'unreasonable'.

I once made a dropship class I called 'Sunburn' using 99 Clan ER Large lasers.  In the nose arc.  Perfectly legal.. but if no one wants to play against it, what's the point :D

[CloaknDagger]

I once made a dropship class I called 'Sunburn' using 99 Clan ER Large lasers.  In the nose arc.  Perfectly legal.. but if no one wants to play against it, what's the point :D

You can only have 700 standard damage in a single capital bay.

So you should have just done 70 LPLs.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

You can only have 700 standard damage in a single capital bay.

So you should have just done 70 LPLs.

99 in one facing, divided into 3 bays dishing 330 damage (reaching extreme range) each.  (since you can divide like weapons into multiple bays, if one wishes)  There's not many targets that could survive 990 damage in one location anyway, so even if legal that much at once would have been massive overkill.  I don't recall the ship's tonnage but it wasn't monstrously large.. I think it might have been a retrofitted Union-C or possibly a Overord-C.  Was meant to be cheap enough to spam (and slaughter) warships from the extreme range band. 

But neither here nor there.. I like to try to keep my designs within the 12 weapons per facing since I think that's the same philosophy the TRO writers are using.

Edit: The math works out to 1485 tons for the 99 Clan ER Large Lasers, enough DHS to be heat neutral, and the extra 'penalty' control systems for busting the 12 weapon limit in a facing.  You don't need to be anything near as large as even a Union to pull those shenanigans off. 

[Kojak]

Just wanted to say that I really like this. I've been hoping somebody would do a series of refits for older DropShips, particularly NC3 refits for the DCA DropShips that still don't have canon NC3 variants. Could the Rose or Okinawa be turned into NC3 pocket WarShips and still perform their original roles?

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Just wanted to say that I really like this. I've been hoping somebody would do a series of refits for older DropShips, particularly NC3 refits for the DCA DropShips that still don't have canon NC3 variants. Could the Rose or Okinawa be turned into NC3 pocket WarShips and still perform their original roles?

Thanks for the feedback :)

I've been looking at fiddling with more projects like this one.  The Nekohono'o basically is a PWS-ized Rose, but I have been wondering what one could do with a 'death star' version that doesn't bother with transporting Battle Armor.  The Achilles is actually another great candidate to get a PWS variant, but honestly every time I try to make an Achilles-PWS I just end up thinking I'd rather use one of my MkIIs above instead. 

Speaking of which, I think I'm going to call its role 'Escort Gunship' rather than muck about with fighter sniping.  An aerodyne's blind sides are just too much of a fatal flaw for a dedicated fighter-overwatch unit.  A spheroid's firing arcs would be much more suitable.. which an Okinawa or Rose/Nekohono'o deathstar unit might be built for that.