Jump movement in Alpha strike discussion

[Scotty]

Now we take the 7/11/5 machine.  Well, if we make is a 7/5j, that means the jumping is now functionally equal, and that's wrong.  So we reduce the maximum jump by the same degree we reduced the maximum ground speed.

Except... it isn't?  It can still only jump 10 inches, instead of the 14 inches that 7/7j can.  That is, by definition, not functionally equal.  Both of the potential movement curves grant the same defensive movement mod, because the defensive movement mod is completely unaffected by mode and distance of travel.

[theothersarah]

Now we take the 7/11/5 machine.  Well, if we make is a 7/5j, that means the jumping is now functionally equal, and that's wrong.  So we reduce the maximum jump by the same degree we reduced the maximum ground speed.

But the 7/11/7 has the same reduction in ground movement as the 7/11/5, so why does the 7/11/7 not lose a proportionate amount of jump while the 7/11/5 does?

[Alexander Knight]

Except... it isn't?  It can still only jump 10 inches, instead of the 14 inches that 7/7j can.  That is, by definition, not functionally equal.  Both of the potential movement curves grant the same defensive movement mod, because the defensive movement mod is completely unaffected by mode and distance of travel.

okay.  5 jump is functionally equal to 7 ground.  That is not the relationship the 7/11/5's jump capacity has with its run capacity in Battletech.  Therefore, as we are reducing the maximum ground speed to 66%, we also reduce the jump range to 66% in order to maintain the relationship.

[theothersarah]

okay.  5 jump is functionally equal to 7 ground.  That is not the relationship the 7/11/5's jump capacity has with its run capacity in Battletech.  Therefore, as we are reducing the maximum ground speed to 66%, we also reduce the jump range to 66% in order to maintain the relationship.

So why are some things exempt from that reduction?

[Scotty]

okay.  5 jump is functionally equal to 7 ground.  That is not the relationship the 7/11/5's jump capacity has with its run capacity in Battletech.  Therefore, as we are reducing the maximum ground speed to 66%, we also reduce the jump range to 66% in order to maintain the relationship.

7/7j doesn't lose 33% of its jump for what reason, then?  Why does the Spider, 8/12/8, still have a 16 inch jump instead of 10 or 11 inches, instead?  That's 66%.

[Alexander Knight]

Because a "full jump" (jump MP = walk MP) is considered to be the same as a unit's normal max ground mp.

[Scotty]

That....

still makes absolutely zero sense to me.  As if a suboptimal choice (in most situations already) needed to be made even less effective.

[theothersarah]

No, it doesn't make any sense. Dropping just one jet results in a massively disproportionate loss of jump distance.

For instance...

After conversion to Alpha Strike...

A Spider has 100% of its jump.

A Mist Lynx has 66% of its jump.

A Jenner has 60% of its jump.

A Stone Rhino 6 has 50% of its jump.

[Papabees]

okay.  5 jump is functionally equal to 7 ground.  That is not the relationship the 7/11/5's jump capacity has with its run capacity in Battletech.  Therefore, as we are reducing the maximum ground speed to 66%, we also reduce the jump range to 66% in order to maintain the relationship.

I think we may be getting caught in verbage. Alexander, what do you mean by "functionally equal"?

[SCC]

I think we may be getting caught in verbage. Alexander, what do you mean by "functionally equal"?

It gets the same TMM

[theothersarah]

If that was the intent of the jump MP reduction, then it would be applied equally to every unit with jump jets.

I think that the actual intent behind the rule was to make a quick-and-dirty catch-all for converting units with "partial" jump MP. That's the only way it makes sense - that someone thought it would be faster to do it that way than to actually count the number of jump jets.

Right now while the developers are giving the conversion rules a second look, I think they should consider revising it to 1 jump MP = 2 inch jump so that all 'mechs have the same jump distance per jet.

[Savage Coyote]

It makes pretty good sense to me....

If the Spider (or full jump capable 'mech) makes use of it's jump jets, it can get the same THM if it jumps or if it runs. 

A 'Mech like the Jenner can't get the same THM's when it jumps as when it runs because it doesn't mount the full allotment of jump jets in TW.  Because of how the mods work in AS, if you left it as a 5j unit, it would get the same mods as if it used it's walking ground speed (which is now considered to be it's maximum speed,) which doesn't happen in TW (aka, when the Jenner runs flat out, it generates a +4, and when it jumps it generates a +3; conversely in AS, when it uses it's ground movement, it generates a +3 on the ground and jumping generates a +2.)  So to make it more accurate to TW, the Jenner (and other 'mechs that don't mount maximum jump jets) takes a penalty to make it feel more like it would in TW rules. 

Part of the hang up I believe is also that most of the movement mods were lowered (aka, my Phantom OmniMech that tends to ALWAYS have a +4 to hit in TW now only pulls a +3, with the trade off being I can "stand still" and still get that modifier.)  The Jenner's possible +4/+3 mods were lowered by one in the conversion.  If there's another 'mech that doesn't mount full jump jets that seems to come out better, it's probably how the math worked out *shrug*

[epic]

it's also in terms of scale and strategic movement, remembering that the amount of time passing is more than just 1 battletech turn.

Using the classic spider vs jenner example:
A spider running 12, or jumping 8, is going to be, assuming some minor terrain obstacles (present on the CBT but not AS maps), covering the approximate same amount of ground. 

A jenner will be covering less if using their jump function however, than if they were running full tilt, especially on a straight stretch with only minor (say, 2 or 3 pts worth, so one or two light woods hexes). 


Think of it in these terms; the spider, having full jjs, has the full use of them on the strategic level.  A jenner (or, better example: classic shadow hawk) uses their jump jets mostly for minor tactical advantages.  As AS is a bit more on the strategic level, those advantages in movement aren't as great as they are for a mech with full jjs.