Charger IIC ideas?

[Suralin]

I'm working on a writeup for a hypothetical Charger IIC -- the idea came about when I realized there was a plant in the Raven Alliance that made Chargers, and it would be very un-Clanlike to let it go to waste (after inevitably cleaning out the anti-Clan rabble-rousers).

The problem is, I can't decide what sort of loadout such a 'Mech would have. Right now I have a basic idea, but I wanted to see what sort of weird stuff you guys come up with. :D

[phoenixalpha]

Probably convert it to a Man O War style plant. That's the closest thing I could imagine. Maybe just make a standard non Omni version of it. Same speed, same look, same overall mehness :)

[Suralin]

Probably convert it to a Man O War style plant. That's the closest thing I could imagine. Maybe just make a standard non Omni version of it. Same speed, same look, same overall mehness :)

Yeah, that was what I was thinking too (plus MASC, Ferro, and standard JJ's). Figured that fishing for ideas can't hurt tho.

[Sabelkatten]

Well, they make (made?) the 2A2, which is a pretty decent overweight heavy. They could clan-tech that with, say, FF armor, DHS, and clantech weapons.

That 1A9 really isn't worth wasting resources on unless you have a ready supply of 400 XLFEs. Then a clantech version of the 3K sounds workable (or possibly a fast energy boat).

[Wrangler]

I think you should go for raw 1A1, making it Clan ER Small Lasers and pumping up the speed 6/9 and max armor and probe.

That or Small Pulse Lasers.  A IIC should be based on the Star League era variants, which only one was 1A1.

[Giovanni Blasini]

XL engine, 4 ERLL, 1 ERSL, 22 DHS. Ferro armor if you have space.

[blitzy]

Convert the charger into an omnimech and fluff it that it uses a ton of man o war fittings.

Code: [Select]

Charger IIc (Omnimech)

Mass: 80 tons
Tech Base: Clan
Chassis Config: Biped Omnimech
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Dark Ages
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-E-E
Production Year: 3132
Cost: 24,411,000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,120

Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 400 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 54.0 km/h
Maximum Speed: 86.4 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
    Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
    24.0 tons of pod space.
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel                   122 points                4.00
    Internal Locations: 5 LA, 2 LL
Engine:             XL Fusion Engine             400                      26.50
    Walking MP: 5
    Running MP: 8
    Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks:         Double Heat Sink             16(32)                    6.00
Gyro:               Standard                                               4.00
Cockpit:            Standard                                               3.00
    Actuators:      L: SH+UA    R: SH+UA
Armor:              Ferro-Fibrous                AV - 240                 12.50
    Armor Locations: 5 RA, 2 RL

                                                      Internal       Armor     
                                                      Structure      Factor     
                                                Head     3            9         
                                        Center Torso     25           34       
                                 Center Torso (rear)                  9         
                                           L/R Torso     17           27       
                                    L/R Torso (rear)                  7         
                                             L/R Arm     13           26       
                                             L/R Leg     17           34       



================================================================================
Loadout Name: Primary                                        Cost: 27,657,300
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-X-E                         BV2: 3,003

Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Jumping MP: 5  (Standard)
    Jump Jet Locations: 1 CT, 2 LT, 2 RT                                   5.00
Heat Sinks:         Double Heat Sink             18(36)                    2.00
    Heat Sink Locations: 2 LT
    CASE Locations: LT                                                     0.00
    Actuators:      L: SH+UA+LA+H    R: SH+UA+LA+H

Equipment                                 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ER Medium Laser                              RA        5         1         1.00
ER Medium Laser                              LA        5         1         1.00
ATM-12                                       RT        8         5         7.00
ER Medium Laser                              RT        5         1         1.00
Active Probe                                 RT        0         1         1.00
ER Medium Laser                              LT        5         1         1.00
ER Medium Laser                              CT        5         1         1.00
Targeting Computer                           HD        -         1         1.00
@ATM-12 (5)                                  LT        -         1         1.00
@ATM-12 (ER) (5)                             LT        -         1         1.00
@ATM-12 (HE) (5)                             LT        -         1         1.00
                                            Free Critical Slots: 5

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      8    Points: 30
5j         7       6       1       0      4     0   Structure:  4
Special Abilities: OMNI, PRB, RCN, CASE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA


================================================================================
Loadout Name: Alpha                                          Cost: 27,024,150
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-X-E                         BV2: 2,889

Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Jumping MP: 5  (Standard)
    Jump Jet Locations: 1 CT, 2 LT, 2 RT                                   5.00
Heat Sinks:         Double Heat Sink             17(34)                    1.00
    Heat Sink Locations: 1 RT
    CASE Locations: LT                                                     0.00
    Actuators:      L: SH+UA+LA+H    R: SH+UA

Equipment                                 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ER PPC                                       RA        15        2         6.00
ER Large Laser                               RA        12        1         4.00
ATM-6                                        LA        4         3         3.50
Targeting Computer                           RT        -         2         2.00
Light Active Probe                           CT        0         1         0.50
@ATM-6 (ER) (10)                             LT        -         1         1.00
@ATM-6 (HE) (10)                             LT        -         1         1.00
                                            Free Critical Slots: 13

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      8    Points: 29
5j         5       4       4       0      4     0   Structure:  4
Special Abilities: OMNI, LPRB, RCN, CASE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA

[fallen]

I wanted to see what sort of weird stuff you guys come up with. :D

Blizty, an Omni Charger with a Targeting computer?   Evil!  }:)
Here is my weird answer to Suralin's question.  Remember, be careful what you wish for.

Code: [Select]

Challenger II

Mass: 80 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: All Eras (non-canon)
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/D-F-E
Production Year: 0
Cost: 10,191,720 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,939

Chassis: Corean Model 900 Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Pitban 320 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h (86.4 km/h)
Jump Jets: None
    Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Durallex Heavy Standard Armor
Armament:
    4 Lushann Redbeam Large Lasers
    1 Martell Medium Laser
Manufacturer: Ravenna Electronics
    Primary Factory: Ramora
Communications System: Tek BattleCom
Targeting and Tracking System: Dalban HiRez

Overview:
Citizens of the Periphery know that there is no love lost between the Raven
Alliance and Ravenna Electronics.   Many people have wondered when the Ravens
would "deal" with the very public anti-Clan views of Ravenna's management.   
Imagine everyone's suprise when the Raven Alliance approached Ravenna
Electronics about building a new Assualt Mech.  Now imagine everyone's shock
that Ravenna Electronics agreed to design and build it. 


Designers at Ravenna did not believe in "re-inventing the wheel".
They reviewed several variants of the Charger for ideas.
The CGR-SB "Challenger" caught their attention.  After some quick
calculations, the design for the Challenger II was born.


Capabilities:
The developers of the Challenger II eschewed clan technology in favor of
readily available Inner Sphere components.   Ravenna Electronics hoped to speed
manufacture time, and lower costs with this decision.


The first step was to keep the Challenger's weapons array and armor, and
instead focus on improving speed and performance with the Challenger II.  The
designers started with a Endo-Steel version of the Wells chassis.  Then they
replaced the Pitban 240 engine with the larger Pitban 320 to increase speed.   
To make room for the new engine, the 28 single heat sinks were replaced by 16
double heatsinks, increasing cooling efficiency.  MASC was added to give the
Challenger II the ability to quickly engage and disengage the enemy.



Battle History:
The Challenger II is still in it's intial testing phase, and yet to be deployed
beyond the factory proving grounds.


Deployment:
The Raven Alliance is about to deploy a half dozen Challenger IIs with AMC units
tasked with discouraging pirates for combat testing.   It is unkown how Clan
warriors will react to a "low-tech" design such as the Challenger II.


================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel                   122 points                4.00
    Internal Locations: 2 CT, 4 RT, 2 LA, 2 RA, 2 LL, 2 RL
Engine:             Fusion Engine                320                      22.50
    Walking MP: 4
    Running MP: 6 (8)
    Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks:         Double Heat Sink             16(32)                    6.00
    Heat Sink Locations: 2 LT, 2 RT
Gyro:               Standard                                               4.00
Cockpit:            Standard                                               3.00
    Actuators:      L: SH+UA+LA    R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor:              Standard Armor               AV - 247                 15.50

                                                      Internal       Armor     
                                                      Structure      Factor     
                                                Head     3            9         
                                        Center Torso     25           40       
                                 Center Torso (rear)                  10       
                                           L/R Torso     17           24       
                                    L/R Torso (rear)                  10       
                                             L/R Arm     13           26       
                                             L/R Leg     17           34       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Medium Laser                                 HD        3         1         1.00
Large Laser                                  RT        8         2         5.00
Large Laser                                  LT        8         2         5.00
MASC                                         LT        -         4         4.00
Large Laser                                  RA        8         2         5.00
Large Laser                                  LA        8         2         5.00
                                            Free Critical Slots: 9

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      8    Points: 19
5          4       4       0       0      4     0   Structure:  6
Special Abilities: ENE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA



[blitzy]

Blizty, an Omni Charger with a Targeting computer?   Evil!  }:)

I thought it would be a Raven thing to do, take a mediocre assault mech, and make it nasty.  And the other configurations could have more mixed tech in them too

[Sabelkatten]

The thing the Charger actually has going for it is armor... So, if they actually bother to gear up the plant how about a full suit of FL?

[Natasha Kerensky]

Depending on how radical you want to get with technology upgrades, I'd look to the Stinger IIC, the Kodiak 3, and the Dark Crow 3 for inspiration and technology sources.

The Stinger IIC proves that the Raven Alliance can upgrade a Succession Wars era design with Clantech endo, ferro, and freezers.  If you do the same to the original Charger without changing the armor tonnage and add a small cockpit, you'll have 7.5 tons to work with on a 80-ton frame that moves 5/8 with 192 armor points and 20 heat points.  With Clan ER and heavy medium lasers, that's actually a decent amount to work with.  That could support 5 ER medium lasers, a couple extra freezers, and a flamer -- basically an overweight Black Hawk Prime or Flashman in terms of performance.  Or it could support 4 improved heavy medium lasers, three freezers, and a flamer.  A one-ton TC could be thrown on either of these at some loss of heat performance.  In keeping with the original Charger, these are both sucky designs for a Clan assault, but they are a threat to many Spheroidtech mechs (their main opposition these days) and will give Clan mediums and some lights a run for their money.

The Kodiak 3 is a Raven Alliance variant with dual LB 20-X ACs.  The Ravens probably don't make it from scratch, but the fact that they can purchase Kodiaks from the Ghost Bears is a strong indication that the Ravens could get hold of the Kodiak's 400XL engine from the Bears, too.  That engine would free up another 26 tons on the Charger to work with while maintaining 5/8 speed, or 33.5 tons total including the Clan endo and ferro from the Stinger IIC.  This is an even more efficient platform than the Gargoyle and lends itself to a large laser boat like the Charger-SB or an LB 20-X platform like the Capellan Charger, among other things.

Finally, the Dark Crow 3, intended for marine operations, employs an XXL engine and ferro-lamellor armor.  The weight savings from the XXL would probably cancel out the additional mass of the ferro-lamellor if you wanted to go that armor route while maintaining the weapons loadout(s) of the Kodiak 3-based Charger. 

I'd also note that the Ravens are already producing an assault omnimech with an XLE and endo, the Deimos.  If I was writing this up, I'd fluff that the Ravens built a Charger IIC like the Stinger IIC as a stop-gap measure during or right after the Jihad, but then later upgraded the line to an omni with Kodiak 3 and/or Dark Crow 3 technology closer to the Dark Age.

Hope this helps.

[UnLimiTeD]

They definitely need to go for a 320 engine, the 2A2 still won't do it.
Or of course the XL treatment. Who the hell needs a 400 standard, anyways?
And yeh, long ranged armament and a tarcomp seems like a raven thing to do.

[Jackmc]

Or, how about actually respecting, rather than raping, the spirit of the original design?  400 XL, max advanced armor, better gyro, armored leg crits and advanced Clan-grade electronics, and then weapons only if there's any tonnage left.

-Jackmc

[blitzy]

that was sorta what I was going for, the primary was a 3050 charger upgrade.  Oh, and the Challenger configuration.

Code: [Select]

Charger IIc (Omnimech)

Mass: 80 tons
Tech Base: Clan
Chassis Config: Biped Omnimech
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Dark Ages
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-E-E
Production Year: 3132
Cost: 24,411,000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,120

Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 400 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 54.0 km/h
Maximum Speed: 86.4 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
    Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
    24.0 tons of pod space.
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel                   122 points                4.00
    Internal Locations: 5 LA, 2 LL
Engine:             XL Fusion Engine             400                      26.50
    Walking MP: 5
    Running MP: 8
    Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks:         Double Heat Sink             16(32)                    6.00
Gyro:               Standard                                               4.00
Cockpit:            Standard                                               3.00
    Actuators:      L: SH+UA    R: SH+UA
Armor:              Ferro-Fibrous                AV - 240                 12.50
    Armor Locations: 5 RA, 2 RL

                                                      Internal       Armor     
                                                      Structure      Factor     
                                                Head     3            9         
                                        Center Torso     25           34       
                                 Center Torso (rear)                  9         
                                           L/R Torso     17           27       
                                    L/R Torso (rear)                  7         
                                             L/R Arm     13           26       
                                             L/R Leg     17           34       



================================================================================
Loadout Name: Challenger                                     Cost: 26,365,800
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-E-E                         BV2: 2,479

Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Heat Sinks:         Double Heat Sink             24(48)                    8.00
    Heat Sink Locations: 4 LT, 4 RT
    Actuators:      L: SH+UA+LA+H    R: SH+UA+LA+H

Equipment                                 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ER Large Laser                               RA        12        1         4.00
ER Large Laser                               LA        12        1         4.00
2 ER Large Lasers                            CT        24        2         8.00
                                            Free Critical Slots: 9

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      8    Points: 25
5          4       4       4       0      4     0   Structure:  4
Special Abilities: OMNI, ENE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA

[Jackmc]

The problem there is that you have 20% of unit mass in weapons and 0% in probes, ECM, TAG, ect.  A good rule of thumb with a Charger is that if you are shooting with it, you're probably screwing up. 

Honestly, for a clan take on the Charger, a single ER Lg paired with an anti-personnel weapon is really all you need.  That gives you a very solid, extreme range hit against stuff you can't run away from yet isn't enough firepower that you forget that you are driving a scout mech instead of a battle mech.


-Jackmc

[fallen]

Blitzy, I like that Challenger variant!   O0 

Jackmc, you make a valid point about the spirit of a design.  Is this what you are writing about?

Code: [Select]

Charger IIC

Mass: 80 tons
Tech Base: Clan
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Clan Invasion
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-X-D
Production Year: 3070
Cost: 9,018,420 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,437

Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 400 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 54.0 km/h
Maximum Speed: 86.4 km/h
Jump Jets: None
    Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
    1  ER Large Laser
    1  Micro Pulse Laser
    1  ECM Suite
    1  TAG
    1  Active Probe
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel                   122 points                4.00
    Internal Locations: 4 RT, 3 RA
Engine:             Fusion Engine                400                      52.50
    Walking MP: 5
    Running MP: 8
    Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks:         Double Heat Sink             10(20)                    0.00
Gyro:               Standard                                               4.00
Cockpit:            Standard                                               3.00
    Actuators:      L: SH+UA+LA    R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor:              Ferro-Fibrous                AV - 153                  8.00
    Armor Locations: 4 LT, 3 LA

                                                      Internal       Armor     
                                                      Structure      Factor     
                                                Head     3            9         
                                        Center Torso     25           22       
                                 Center Torso (rear)                  6         
                                           L/R Torso     17           20       
                                    L/R Torso (rear)                  5         
                                             L/R Arm     13           15       
                                             L/R Leg     17           18       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Targeting Computer                           HD        -         1         1.00
ER Large Laser                               CT        12        1         4.00
Active Probe                                 RT        0         1         1.00
ECM Suite                                    LT        0         1         1.00
Micro Pulse Laser                            RA        1         1         0.50
TAG                                          LA        0         1         1.00
                                            Free Critical Slots: 28

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      5    Points: 14
5          2       2       2       0      4     0   Structure:  6
Special Abilities: ECM, TAG, PRB, RCN, ENE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA


I personally like this design, and in the Raven Alliance it would be a good match up to the Bombardier BMB-05A with its' Arrow IV, and BMB-12D (if the Raven's ever start using Semi-Guided LRM's).   I do fear that this mech would be vulnerable to dedicated recon hunters like the Wolftrap, or fast heavies like the Grand Dragon and Linebacker.  I think that this Charger IIC would not have a long life expectancy on the battlefield.  In the balance between spirit of design, speed, firepower, and armor, most players (including myself) are going to go for firepower and armor.

[Sabelkatten]

It's not the most brilliant design, but it's fast and hard to take down:

Code: [Select]

Charger IIC

Mass: 80 tons
Tech Base: Clan
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: Clan Invasion
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-X-F
Production Year: 3070
Cost: 32 390 340 C-Bills
Battle Value: 3 393

Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 400 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 54,0 km/h
Maximum Speed: 86,4 km/h (140,4 km/h)
Jump Jets: None
    Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Ferro-Lamellor
Armament:
    2  ER Large Lasers
    2  ER Medium Lasers
    1  Angel ECM
    1  TAG
    1  Active Probe
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel                   122 points                4,00
    Internal Locations: 4 LT, 3 RT
Engine:             XL Fusion Engine             400                      26,50
    Walking MP: 5
    Running MP: 8 (13)
    Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks:         Double Heat Sink             13(26)                    3,00
Gyro:               Standard                                               4,00
Cockpit:            Standard                                               3,00
    Actuators:      L: SH+UA+LA+H    R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor:              Ferro-Lamellor               AV - 245                 17,50
    Armor Locations: 3 LT, 3 RT, 3 LA, 3 RA

                                                      Internal       Armor     
                                                      Structure      Factor     
                                                Head     3            9         
                                        Center Torso     25           38       
                                 Center Torso (rear)                  12       
                                           L/R Torso     17           26       
                                    L/R Torso (rear)                  8         
                                             L/R Arm     13           26       
                                             L/R Leg     17           33       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TAG                                          HD        0         1         1,00
Active Probe                                 CT        0         1         1,00
Supercharger                                 CT        -         1         3,00
ER Medium Laser                              RT        5         1         1,00
MASC                                         RT        -         3         3,00
ER Medium Laser                              LT        5         1         1,00
ER Large Laser                               RA        12        1         4,00
ER Large Laser                               LA        12        1         4,00
Angel ECM                                    RL        0         2         2,00
Targeting Computer                           LL        -         2         2,00
                                            Free Critical Slots: 10

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:     10    Points: 34
8          4       4       2       0      4     0   Structure:  4
Special Abilities: AECM, TAG, PRB, RCN, ENE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA
And even harder to take down:

Code: [Select]

Charger IIC

Mass: 80 tons
Tech Base: Clan
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: Clan Invasion
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-X-F
Production Year: 3070
Cost: 33 076 140 C-Bills
Battle Value: 3 010

Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 400 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 54,0 km/h
Maximum Speed: 86,4 km/h (140,4 km/h)
Jump Jets: Unknown
    Jump Capacity: 150 meters
Armor: Unknown Ferro-Lamellor
Armament:
    4  ER Medium Lasers
    1  Angel ECM
    1  TAG
    1  Active Probe
    1  Laser Anti-Missile System
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel                   122 points                4,00
    Internal Locations: 4 LT, 3 RT
Engine:             XL Fusion Engine             400                      26,50
    Walking MP: 5
    Running MP: 8 (13)
    Jumping MP: 5 Standard
    Jump Jet Locations: 1 CT, 2 LT, 2 RT                                   5,00
Heat Sinks:         Double Heat Sink             14(28)                    4,00
Gyro:               Standard                                               4,00
Cockpit:            Standard                                               3,00
    Actuators:      L: SH+UA+LA+H    R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor:              Ferro-Lamellor               AV - 245                 17,50
    Armor Locations: 6 LA, 6 RA

                                                      Internal       Armor     
                                                      Structure      Factor     
                                                Head     3            9         
                                        Center Torso     25           38       
                                 Center Torso (rear)                  12       
                                           L/R Torso     17           26       
                                    L/R Torso (rear)                  8         
                                             L/R Arm     13           26       
                                             L/R Leg     17           33       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Laser Anti-Missile System                    HD        5         1         1,00
Supercharger                                 CT        -         1         3,00
ER Medium Laser                              RT        5         1         1,00
MASC                                         RT        -         3         3,00
TAG                                          LT        0         1         1,00
ER Medium Laser                              LT        5         1         1,00
ER Medium Laser                              RA        5         1         1,00
ER Medium Laser                              LA        5         1         1,00
Angel ECM                                    RL        0         2         2,00
Active Probe                                 LL        0         1         1,00
Targeting Computer                           LL        -         1         1,00
                                            Free Critical Slots: 5

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:     10    Points: 30
8/5j       4       4       0       0      4     0   Structure:  4
Special Abilities: AECM, TAG, PRB, RCN, AMS, ENE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA

[Jackmc]

I think you guys are getting the spirit of it.  My computer with HMP is down, but from memory, my take was very similar to the XL version posted above though I went with JJ's over the second Lg Laser since mobility trumps firepower on a scout.   

Fallen,  I understand your concern about being under-gunned, but understand that usually "ScoutMech" is a misnomer.  "PointMech" is a much better description.  Ground vehicles and air assets are simply far more efficient at large-scale recon efforts.  Scout mechs exist more to range slightly ahead or to the flank of line mechs which means the time they have to operate out of support is realtively short and made shorter by the fact that they are falling back in the direction the support is advancing.  I typically play with very large battlespaces, and it is extremely rare that my Scout Mechs operate more than a couple of maps sheets ahead of my main force unless my scout is a TAG expert and I have an AIV Battery tasked to overwatch them.


-Jackmc 

[Jackmc]

Another thing that occurs to me is that one direction I've never seen a Charger IIC taken is as a Support element for ProtoMechs.  A properly-configured Charger IIC teamed up with 4 points of probe-equipped PM's would make a heck of a Scout Star that would extend the scouting range from point to operational range.  In that case, you could justify more guns on the Charger as it shifts to more of a light fire support/cav role for the PM's.

-Jackmc 

[fallen]

Sabelkatten, Wow!  Two different Chargers that move up to 13 hexes in one turn!

Jackmc, thanks for the clarification.  I normally battle on a smaller scale, from 2 to 4 map sheets.  It has been a long while since I have battled on a larger scale with larger forces.

When TRO 3055 first came out, the clans did a lot of tinkering with the tonnage of IIC mechs.   The Ravens now have access to a Charger factory.  Would they modify the tonnage?

Code: [Select]

Charger  IIC

Mass: 60 tons
Tech Base: Clan
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Clan Invasion
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-X-D
Production Year: 3070
Cost: 7,060,480 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,761

Chassis: Unknown Standard
Power Plant: Unknown 300 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 54.0 km/h
Maximum Speed: 86.4 km/h (108.0 km/h)
Jump Jets: None
    Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
    1  LRM-20
    4  ER Small Lasers
    1  Narc Launcher
    1  Small Pulse Laser
    1  TAG
    1  ECM Suite
    1  Active Probe
    2  A-Pods
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                      99 points                6.00
Engine:             Fusion Engine                300                      19.00
    Walking MP: 5
    Running MP: 8 (10)
    Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks:         Double Heat Sink             10(20)                    0.00
Gyro:               Standard                                               3.00
Cockpit:            Standard                                               3.00
    Actuators:      L: SH+UA+LA    R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor:              Standard Armor               AV - 176                 11.00
    CASE Locations: LT, RT                                                 0.00

                                                      Internal       Armor     
                                                      Structure      Factor     
                                                Head     3            9         
                                        Center Torso     20           26       
                                 Center Torso (rear)                  7         
                                           L/R Torso     14           22       
                                    L/R Torso (rear)                  6         
                                             L/R Arm     10           17       
                                             L/R Leg     14           22       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ER Small Laser                               HD        2         1         0.50
ECM Suite                                    CT        0         1         1.00
Active Probe                                 CT        0         1         1.00
LRM-20                                       RT        6         4         5.00
ER Small Laser                               RT        2         1         0.50
Narc Launcher                                LT        0         1         2.00
ER Small Laser                               LT        2         1         0.50
MASC                                         LT        -         2         2.00
ER Small Laser                               RA        2         1         0.50
TAG                                          LA        0         1         1.00
Small Pulse Laser                            LA        2         1         1.00
A-Pod                                        RL        0         1         0.50
A-Pod                                        LL        0         1         0.50
@LRM-20 (Narc) (6)                           RT        -         1         1.00
@Narc (Homing) (6)                           LT        -         1         1.00
                                            Free Critical Slots: 29

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      6    Points: 18
6          4       4       1       0      3     0   Structure:  5
Special Abilities: TAG, ECM, PRB, RCN, SNARC, CASE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA, IF 1



[casperionx]

Heres my idea for a charger IIC - XXL engine with re-inforced chassis and Ferro Lemellor and CASE II protected ammo bin:

Code: [Select]

Charger IIC

Mass: 80 tons
Tech Base: Clan
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: Clan Invasion
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-X-F
Production Year: 3070
Cost: 85,349,640 C-Bills
Battle Value: 2,529

Chassis: Unknown Reinforced
Power Plant: Unknown 400 XXL Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 54.0 km/h
Maximum Speed: 86.4 km/h
Jump Jets: None
    Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Ferro-Lamellor
Armament:
    1  Imp. Hvy Large Laser
    2  LRM-15s
    4  Imp. Hvy Medium Lasers
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Reinforced                   122 points               16.00
Engine:             XXL Fusion Engine            400                      17.50
    Walking MP: 5
    Running MP: 8
    Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks:         Double Heat Sink             15(30)                    5.00
Gyro:               Standard                                               4.00
Cockpit:            Standard                                               3.00
    Actuators:      L: SH+UA+LA+H    R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor:              Ferro-Lamellor               AV - 224                 16.00
    Armor Locations: 2 CT, 2 LT, 2 LA, 2 RA, 2 LL, 2 RL
    CASE Locations: LT, RT, LA, RA                                         0.00
    CASE II Locations: 1 RT                                                0.50

                                                      Internal       Armor     
                                                      Structure      Factor     
                                                Head     3            9         
                                        Center Torso     25           39       
                                 Center Torso (rear)                  10       
                                           L/R Torso     17           24       
                                    L/R Torso (rear)                  10       
                                             L/R Arm     13           24       
                                             L/R Leg     17           25       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Imp. Hvy Medium Lasers                     RA        14        4         2.00
2 Imp. Hvy Medium Lasers                     LA        14        4         2.00
2 LRM-15s                                    RT        10        4         7.00
Imp. Hvy Large Laser                         LT        18        3         4.00
@LRM-15 (24)                                 RT        -         3         3.00
                                            Free Critical Slots: 8

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      9    Points: 25
5          4       4       0       0      4     0   Structure:  6
Special Abilities: CASEII, CASE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA, LRM 1/1/1, IF 1



[Suralin]

Heres my idea for a charger IIC - XXL engine with re-inforced chassis and Ferro Lemellor and CASE II protected ammo bin:

Cost: 85,349,640 C-Bills

Holy crud  :o

[glitterboy2098]

with the company in question having an anti-clan management, a charger IIC seems unlikely. but given the models being made are the slower LRM20'd -1A9, and the RL'd up -2A2.. i'd say what would happen is the company would take advantage of clan tech, but not directly to the clan. (rather like how many IS units in 3145 did)

Starting with the -1A9.. Strip half a ton of armor off, and swap the Engine back up to a 400 and the heat sinks to 17 doubles. then replace the weapons with 4 ERML's and a clan LRM20 with 2 tons of ammo.

bam. clan Charger with minimal retooling. the outworlds miltia would not need to retrain much at all, and the clan garrison pilots get a unit that can be maintained easily.

[Jackmc]

Fallen, to me what makes a 80 ton scout mech special is when leg armor + leg IS >=41.  This allows the mech to suffer an AC-20 double tap to a leg and still escape.  Dropping down to 60 tons costs you that durability.  Now with FLA, that may be acceptable as long as the number is 31+ to sustain an ER PPC double tap.

-Jackmc

[casperionx]

Holy crud  :o

XXL Engine does that to cost, but was required to fit the Re-inforced IS and Ferro Lamellor armour (Combined with the speed, makes it a pain to bring down).

[ialdabaoth]

Why not just retool the factory to make Phoenix Hawk IIC's? Same tonnage, same engine size, same gyro size, same role.

[Wrangler]

I wonder if inflation is taken into consideration?  I think prices MUST fluxate over time.   XXL allot more commonly used in the Dark Age starting in 3080s.

[Fragger]

I always figured Battletech is pretty realistic at that point. Just take a look at the car industry. Instead of decresing prices of new production models, the prices stay the same while there's no real improvement on the fact that a car is there to bring you from A to B. You just get new features like voice control, seat heaters and stuff like that.
In the case of engines, series production models don't get faster and stronger engines, they get more efficient and environmental friendly engines. In the case of BT, it could be something like  instead of the unabtanium used in 3080 that heavily radiated your planet when a mech went boom, you now use oricalcum that doesn't radiate everything so badly.

[Jackmc]

The car analogy really doesn't work very well.  First, there's relatively little R&D dumped into a mech design after it is finalized where as an automaker has a significant annual R&D cost related to a model because they have to constantly update it to the next model year where as a Charger A1 is a Charger A1 regardless of when it was made.  Second, production model engines do change in relation to demand.  Right now there's both regulatory and consumer pressure to produce efficient, eco-friendly engines (historically, power was favored over efficiency), but where there is demand for performance over efficiency, different engines are offered.  In particular, truck and SUV models often have larger engine options for power users such as farmers and police.

-Jackmc

[fallen]

I have seen some wonderful designs for possible Charger IICs.   Please keep those mechs coming.  There has also been some very insightful dicussion on the use of resources and existing designs.  But what role does politics play?  Both the Snow Ravens and the Alliance have traditionally put more emphasis on aerospace assets than ground forces, including battlemechs.  I believe that the bulk of R&D of the Raven Alliance will go into fighters and dropships.   
Those of you who believe that the Raven Alliance would just replace the Charger with a combat proven design may be on to something.  One incident I would like to point to is the Snow Ravens assisting United Outworlders Corporation with the production of the Bombardier.   The Alliance Military Command got their hands on two variants of a Star League mech, and Clan Snow Raven got good publicity.  Hopefully the nastiness of the Jihad will have changed the mindset of the management at Ravenna Electronics. I think that the Ravens would make the same arrangements with Ravenna, with the AMC's approval.  I think that placing the Star League era Spartan SPT-N2 in production in place of the Charger would be a boon both to the AMC and the image of the Raven Alliance.   
The Spartan has the same speed and mission profile as the Charger, but is better armed, better armored, and is equipped with TAG.