Author Topic: Tell me about - Warhammer IIC  (Read 5738 times)

Degman

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Tell me about - Warhammer IIC
« on: 05 November 2013, 05:32:18 »
Frankly, I am a bit surprised that so many variants replaces ER PPCs with other weapons. I mean, a Warhammer without a PPC in each arm isn't Warhammer anymore. Besides, clan ER PPCs aren't really that bad, either  ;)

Anyway, can you tell me about all of the variants and their efficiency and availability throughout the IS and periphery?

cold1

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Re: Tell me about - Warhammer IIC
« Reply #1 on: 05 November 2013, 10:01:48 »
Some one will come along and blow my info away but the original is a monster.  Good mobility, great armor and tons of firepower.  I prefer the 4 to the other variants.  It's simple to use and the ATMs give it tactical flexibility.  The 2 is a nightmare at long range and the 3 is a devastating close in fighter.  These all can run hot if you don't pay a little attention but they are easy to manage as most come with a ton of DHS.

I don't have much experience beyond these as the newer variants lose the Warhammer feel.

The Sharks sell these things to everyone and my guess is they sell lots of them.  It's a great mech that really hold its own with any other mech out there.  Great line unit for heavier forces.  The original is probably the best of the bunch though.




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Degman

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Re: Tell me about - Warhammer IIC
« Reply #2 on: 05 November 2013, 10:54:40 »
Yeah, I've noticed that it appears even in the former/second FWL.

4 seems like a rugged, reliable beast that is capable to do a lot of damage quickly and from a safe distance.

glitterboy2098

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Re: Tell me about - Warhammer IIC
« Reply #3 on: 05 November 2013, 12:31:55 »
the 2 variant, with the LRM15's, is almost certainly inspired by the macross Tomahawk Destroid.. which was what the original unseen warhammer art was derived from. the Tomahawk had particle cannon for arms, two big missile bays in the chest, a smaller missile bay on one shoulder, and some misc guns. a loadout that seemes to have inspired the original warhammer's PPC's+SRM+smallguns loadout as well.

i must say though i prefer the 4 variant.. the ATM's are more versitile than the LRM's, and the overall firepower goes up slightly in close. and i'm not surprised the Sharks sell so many.. you can basically use it like an IS warhammer.. only it's more durable. this means you don't have to retrain pilots as much when you switch. plus it has that iconic appearance of the old warhammer, unlike many of the other IIC's. which would play well with the image concious IS commanders too.
« Last Edit: 05 November 2013, 12:35:38 by glitterboy2098 »

JadeHellbringer

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Re: Tell me about - Warhammer IIC
« Reply #4 on: 05 November 2013, 12:55:24 »
I don't have much experience with the late model versions, but plenty with the earlier ones. Since my books aren't handy these days for me to look up the new stuff anyway, I'll give my thoughts on the first four at least.

IIC-1: Ohhhh mama. The single finest low-end (har har) weight assault of its day. Don't even try something else, because it's not worth the trouble. This beast has twin headcappers at long range, switches to FIVE ridiculous Clan pulse lasers and an SRM rack at short range, has average movement, and is virtually unkillable without just having to rip it limb from limb in the process. Standard engine, thick armor, able to make life miserable at any range while you work on it- and hey, it's actually pretty docile on the heat curve if you're not dumb about it. This is a gem.

IIC-2: Not quite as impressive as its cousin, trading the excellent pulse lasers for still-useful LRM-15s. The long range power obviously goes way up, but it loses the accurate punch that was so handy against fast-movers before. A fine Mech in its own right, but not compared to the 1.

IIC-3: Heavy large lasers are NOT valid PPC replacements. It's almost forgiveable on a smaller Mech where the lighter weight is a factor, but on 80 tons? The rest of the Mech hardly matters after that. Nah, seriously, this is a pretty nasty close-in fighter, but it's not even in the same time zone as the other versions as far as utility.

IIC-4: And here we have perfection personified. We're back to the PPCs we never should have lost in the first place, and now they're backed by twin ATM-6 racks. Combined with average ammo bins and good heat sinks, this thing starts flinging PPC shots and ER ATM salvos at long ranges, and just keeps switching missile types as it approaches, with no loss of capability from heat problems. It's still just as unkillable as it was before (though the increase in ammo is noteworthy). The ER small laser almost feels like the afterthought it likely is- I'd like a flamer instead, but that's because I love the smell of burning infantry in the morning.

Something to note- Warhammer IICs, in case you track C-bill costs, are ridiculously cheap for a Clan assault Mech. It's that standard engine- if your merc unit needs a centerpiece to work around, and you have access to Clan second-line gear (maybe via the Dragoons owing you a pre-Jihad favor, or the Sharks are interested in trading with you?), this won't tax your wallet too badly- and gives you a monster of an assault Mech that few Inner Sphere machines 20 tons larger can compete with.
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Kojak

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Re: Tell me about - Warhammer IIC
« Reply #5 on: 05 November 2013, 13:31:44 »
JHB is absolutely spot-on about the original Whammy IIC; that thing is damn near perfect (I might swap a pulse laser for a couple of flamers and an ECM suite myself, but that's neither here nor there). The one I'm really looking forward to using is the IIC 8: the HLLs on the IIC 3 were quite a downgrade, but the IIC 8 fixes that by upping the speed to 5/8 and adding plasma cannons, while swapping the old pulse lasers for a pair of ER mediums and replacing the SRM rack with the Streak equivalent. On paper, it looks like it should be easy to use the plasma cannons to lame my opponents, then cruise in and hit them with my close-range array (which conveniently all have the same range brackets). The plasma cannons will do a real number on conventionals to boot. I can't wait to see how it performs in-game.


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Klat

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Re: Tell me about - Warhammer IIC
« Reply #6 on: 05 November 2013, 13:58:34 »
I've used the 8 in Alpha Strike and under those rules it's a beast. That kind of HT special is enough to make a great many high defense 'Mechs hittable on the next turn. I use it in a very single-minded fashion; I pick a target and beat on it until it's dead, then move on to the next. If I'm hunting a Hellstar in AS I use the Warhammer IIC 8.

In TW I don't think the ability to overheat enemy 'Mechs is nearly as useful but I'm sure the 8 can still make life difficult. That's not to say that heat causing weapons are useless in TW, but they're much scarier in AS.
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Diablo48

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Re: Tell me about - Warhammer IIC
« Reply #7 on: 05 November 2013, 16:31:14 »
I do not really have much to add about it that has not been said already, but I am also a huge fan of the 4.  It is a perfect example of using ATMs right and is one of my go-to assault designs even if the SFE limits its total throw weight a bit compared to something like the Dire Wolf.


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Maskerade

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Re: Tell me about - Warhammer IIC
« Reply #8 on: 05 November 2013, 17:05:09 »
even if the SFE limits its total throw weight a bit compared to something like the Dire Wolf.

The Dire Wolf is 20 tons heavier and mounts 5/8ths the total weight of the Warhammer in weaponry. I'm not suprised that their throw weights are different.

On the other hand, against another 80 ton assault with an XLFE, the IIC's standard engine will make it much harder to kill through attrition, as it's a zombie. The other assault could survive the loss of one side torso due to the clan engine, but it's only one hit away from death then, whereas the Warhammer can lose 2 side torsos and still try to kick them to death.
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Diablo48

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Re: Tell me about - Warhammer IIC
« Reply #9 on: 05 November 2013, 17:13:09 »
The Dire Wolf is 20 tons heavier and mounts 5/8ths the total weight of the Warhammer in weaponry. I'm not suprised that their throw weights are different.

On the other hand, against another 80 ton assault with an XLFE, the IIC's standard engine will make it much harder to kill through attrition, as it's a zombie. The other assault could survive the loss of one side torso due to the clan engine, but it's only one hit away from death then, whereas the Warhammer can lose 2 side torsos and still try to kick them to death.

True, but it is still a limiting factor.  The Warhammer IIC cannot carry as large an arsenal as the more typical XLE assaults, and it does show when you compare it to more comparable designs like the Warhawk or Hellstar.


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anime ninja

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Re: Tell me about - Warhammer IIC
« Reply #10 on: 05 November 2013, 19:35:35 »
I like the IIC-1 and IIC-4.

The twin PPCs and the flex of the ATMs made the IIC-4 a better more rounded Mech.

glitterboy2098

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Re: Tell me about - Warhammer IIC
« Reply #11 on: 05 November 2013, 20:22:15 »
hmm.. Warhammer IIC in Alpha Strike..

Warhammer IIC 1 = 26points = Move 8", Armor 8, Structure 6, Short 6, Medium 6, Long 3, OV-2, CASE.
Warhammer IIC 2 = 25points = Move 8", Armor 8, Structure 6, Short 6, Medium 6, Long 5, LRM2/2/2, IF2, CASE.
Warhammer IIC 3 = 24points = Move 8", Armor 8, Structure 6, Short 7, Medium 7, Long 0, OV-1, ENE
Warhammer IIC 4 = 24points = Move 8", Armor 8, Structure 6, Short 7, Medium 6, Long 4, CASE.
Warhammer IIC 5 = 22points = Move 8", Armor 8, Structure 6, Short 6, Medium 6, Long 3, OV-1, FLK2/2/2, CASE.
Warhammer IIC 6 = 27points = Move 8", Armor 8, Structure 6, Short 5, Medium 5, Long 35 OV-1, FLK2/2/2, CASE.
Warhammer IIC 7 = 29points = Move 8"/12J", Armor 6, Structure 4, Short 5, Medium 4, Long 2, OV-3, OVL, CASE, ECM, CT2.
Warhammer IIC 8 = 24points = Move 10", Armor 7, Structure 4, Short 4, Medium 4, Long 0, OV-2, HT2, CASE.
Warhammer IIC 9 = 28points = Move 10", Armor 8, Structure 3, Short 7, Medium 7, Long 5, IF-1, CASE, ECM.

for reference..
the 5 has 2 HAG20's, 4 HML's, and an SSRM4.
the 6 has 2ERPPC, an ERSL, and a HAG30
the 7 is space adapted with IJJ's, 2 ERPPC, 2 ERML, 2 MPL, 2MiPL, ATM6, ECM, 2 tons remass.
the 8 is 2 HLL's, 2 ERML's, a SSRM6, and 2 Plasma Cannon.
the 9 has 2 CRAC5's, 2 ERML's, 2 ERSL's, an LRM10, and ECM.

from the looks of things, the 5 is the best deal at 22 points for a mobile high firepower/armor assualt (Especially if you want a durable Flak unit).. while the 4 is the best all rounder with its nice damage progression. the 2 and its LRM's make for a useful indirect fire ability as well. that said, the very pricy 7 and it's IJJ's would be a very nasty encounter.. the extra TMM from the long jumps ought to help offset the reduced armor a bit.

cold1

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Re: Tell me about - Warhammer IIC
« Reply #12 on: 06 November 2013, 09:17:41 »
Lots of love for this thing.  I kind of feel like the Mad Cat II tries to solve a problem the Whammer IIC already has handled.  SharkFoxes know brand recognition when they see it though. 

Is this one of those mechs that will never get mentioned in the quarterly best/favorite/must have mech thread but everybody uses it and likes it?


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iampoch

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Re: Tell me about - Warhammer IIC
« Reply #13 on: 06 November 2013, 09:24:12 »
The IIC 10 isn't too shabby as well, sort of like a baby Hellstar and then some.

Diablo48

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Re: Tell me about - Warhammer IIC
« Reply #14 on: 06 November 2013, 09:34:46 »
Lots of love for this thing.  I kind of feel like the Mad Cat II tries to solve a problem the Whammer IIC already has handled.  SharkFoxes know brand recognition when they see it though.

That is not true at all.  The Warhammer IIC is a terrible design to sell to ignorant spheroids for far too much money because the SFE and low ammo consumption take a huge bite out of the profit margin.


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cold1

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Re: Tell me about - Warhammer IIC
« Reply #15 on: 06 November 2013, 10:27:23 »
That is not true at all.  The Warhammer IIC is a terrible design to sell to ignorant spheroids for far too much money because the SFE and low ammo consumption take a huge bite out of the profit margin.

Hence why the Miffed Kitty 2 has gauss rifles instead of PPCs.  You have a point.  Those dual LRMs probably blow through ammo as well.  Evil SharkFoxes.


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marauder648

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Re: Tell me about - Warhammer IIC
« Reply #16 on: 06 November 2013, 10:48:59 »
The 8 Variant is a bit of an oddball, its more a large Heavy, fast for its weight at 86kph without masc or anything but it looses the 1's legendary toughness due to its XL engine.  Firepower again is a bit weird.  2 x HLL's for headcapping and hole punching, 2 x Plasma's to make someone overheat, 2 x ER Meds and a SSRM-6 add to its punch in close and 18 Double HS will struggle if you go IMMA FIRIN EVERYTHIN'!  But if you do alfa someone, you'll be sure to rip a bloody chunk out of their hide.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Tell me about - Warhammer IIC
« Reply #17 on: 06 November 2013, 13:45:02 »
Love the Warhammer IIC, and like the others its the original or the 4 that I consider the best.  It is hard to imagine how you could improve it for its role- the simple line mech fighting through the opposition.  While I love cERLL and generally will swap them in for cERPPCs, not sure this is one of those times you do not really gain anything in the trade off- especially with the 4.
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Savage Coyote

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Re: Tell me about - Warhammer IIC
« Reply #18 on: 06 November 2013, 13:55:31 »
I've had good luck with the ones I've used; even the 3.  When playing blood spirits years ago I'd use this guy as a body guard for Blood Kites or Blood Asps and it did very well.

cold1

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Re: Tell me about - Warhammer IIC
« Reply #19 on: 06 November 2013, 20:20:45 »
I've had good luck with the ones I've used; even the 3.  When playing blood spirits years ago I'd use this guy as a body guard for Blood Kites or Blood Asps and it did very well.

You have an evil penchant for big mechs dude.  Hammer IIC 3 and Blood Kites together???  That's terrifying.  Especially if your the Spirits and your fighting on York.


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A. Lurker

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Re: Tell me about - Warhammer IIC
« Reply #20 on: 07 November 2013, 02:33:35 »
Hence why the Miffed Kitty 2 has gauss rifles instead of PPCs.  You have a point.  Those dual LRMs probably blow through ammo as well.  Evil SharkFoxes.

Ammo isn't really a big deal since IS munitions can be adapted to Clan weapons of the appropriate type easily enough (and if a green tech team can wave a dead chicken over something like 240 LRMs per hour to make them behave in the "wrong" kind of launcher -- as per StratOps p. 192 --, it's probably not that hard to update the production lines if there's ever enough demand, either). So if you really want to profit from ammo sales, you have to sweet-talk the Spheroids into buying ammo-using weapons they can't yet make themselves as well.

HazMeat

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Re: Tell me about - Warhammer IIC
« Reply #21 on: 09 November 2013, 03:20:58 »
I think the Warhammer IIC is more of a close-range bruiser than a fire 'mech; those Ü-PPC with 4-6-0 movement are merely adequate to keep it from feeling uncomfortably unbalanced, not enough to classify it as a fire platform given its total tonnage.  Well, since it's fluffed as a second-line 'mech, maybe it makes sense for a fire role if we stick it in a non-space-mobile force and judge it by C-Bill costs, but that doesn't change the fact that the blistering laser battery is still a lot shinier than the second PPC. :D  To me, that makes it look a lot more like a Battlemaster than a Warhammer; the second PPC seems more for redundancy and fire arc coverage than anything else- just a pinch of the reasoning going into the Nova, since you can tear one off and hardly impact its threat value at its "home" range band.  Combined with the stubborn SFE and nearly full armor, it looks less intimidating as a "sniper" than as a brick to the face.  (Perhaps compare and contrast with the Hellstar, Warhawk, Marauder IIC, Timber Wolf Alt. A, Hellbringer Prime, and the Stalking Spider?)

The only flaw that bugs me (because it's so easy to avert, not because it really hurts much) is use of a single ammo bin with Standard SRMs rather than Streaks; that's just a general thing to avoid in _most_ situations, but it's especially irksome in this one due to the range brackets.  Upgrading to a Streak-4 would require scrounging a half-ton somewhere, so maybe drop a Heat Sink and add a half-ton of armor?  Personally, for minimising bother, I'd just swap for a sixth laser and slip a Flamer into the remaining crit and tonnage- cross off two crits to write in new item names, discard the ammo bubbles and that's all! 

I had not taken a close look at the variants yet.  ATMs look like a "poor man's omnitech" when paired with big beams, which is to say, they look pretty good here.  Personally, I think I'd prefer the simplicity of the LRMs enough that I'm willing to trade the punch of HE ammo and added range of ER ammo for it; I won't ever have to guess how much of which missile type to load, nor have to watch that same ammo being consumed in order of least to most volatile. 
I'm pretty happy that Battletech is divorced from actual warfare by its inherent silliness. Real war machines tend to be closely tied with the other--to avoid opening a can of worms--unpleasant, real world elements of war.

Savage Coyote

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Re: Tell me about - Warhammer IIC
« Reply #22 on: 09 November 2013, 08:34:05 »
You have an evil penchant for big mechs dude.  Hammer IIC 3 and Blood Kites together???  That's terrifying.  Especially if your the Spirits and your fighting on York.

Haha, yeah, in the old Fan Grand Council, a lot of players wanted to run with Dire Wolves, Warhawks, and whatever other BV-intense units they could with munched out uber-elite pilots, so my counters tended to be cheaper, more durable units, with more units on the field with either 3/4 pilots or with the BV I was given sometimes, 0/0 on the same units.  I was playing Blood Spirits for this one obviously! :)

If I was able to dictate the forces in a battle, I would use a Blood Kite, either the 'hammer Iic 1 or 3, a Stooping Kite B (LRM version,) Stormcrow C, and well, can't remember the last one.  I think the Hellion A with all the LRM's.  It caused a good number of other FGC players to shift their tactics from 3-5 lumbering assaults which took them out of their comfort zone.

When I played Coyotes, I rolled with a Savage Coyote B, Blood Asp C (the one with tri-UAC's,) Stormcrow C, Ice Ferret B or H, and an Adder B.  Same concept, just more Omni's.  I won't win any speed records really, but I have other forces for that.  Unfortunately Phantoms, Fire Moths, and Ice Ferrets don't last long in a "true" clan gunnery/piloting system, so usually have to go for more armor/firepower.

cold1

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Re: Tell me about - Warhammer IIC
« Reply #23 on: 09 November 2013, 14:11:48 »
Yeah, discounting some of the clan secondline machines is a mistake.  The higher end heavy Battlemechs and assault Battlemechs the clans use pre Republic are almost all monsters.

The first 4 Whammers are all really good at flat out decimating other mechs.  The 3 might be a little bit of a niche roll player but when run into one in a dark alley, it will hurt you.


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Savage Coyote

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Re: Tell me about - Warhammer IIC
« Reply #24 on: 09 November 2013, 20:26:24 »
Yeah, the other combination was the Kingfisher D and the Warhammer Iic 3;  the whammy just went forward like a zombie while the Kingfisher hung back (in duels of course.)  While 4/6 won't win you any race records, you have the survivability to close.  HLL's aren't ideal I'll admit but it can work.

cold1

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Re: Tell me about - Warhammer IIC
« Reply #25 on: 09 November 2013, 21:05:31 »
Yeah, the other combination was the Kingfisher D and the Warhammer Iic 3;  the whammy just went forward like a zombie while the Kingfisher hung back (in duels of course.)  While 4/6 won't win you any race records, you have the survivability to close.  HLL's aren't ideal I'll admit but it can work.

I actually like paired HLL's.  I'm a fan of the paired PPC streak 6 combo and a pair of HLLs and a pair of LRM20's is a pretty close second.



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Re: Tell me about - Warhammer IIC
« Reply #26 on: 09 November 2013, 23:01:01 »
Gorgeous mech
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