Author Topic: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?  (Read 44842 times)

Caesar Steiner for Archon

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #150 on: 11 December 2011, 03:45:47 »
Can't ignore the Warrior Books, or BoK,

I think that's the problem.  If they're our legends, I want some that are better-written.
« Last Edit: 11 December 2011, 03:51:30 by Caesar Steiner for Archon »


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Fallen_Raven

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #151 on: 11 December 2011, 17:12:54 »
I think that's the problem.  If they're our legends, I want some that are better-written.

If you want a better legend, write one. Can't hurt to submit a story to Battlecorps, and we can certainly use all the enthusiastict support for more fiction we can give Herb during his next novel push.
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Caesar Steiner for Archon

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #152 on: 11 December 2011, 19:51:25 »
If you want a better legend, write one. Can't hurt to submit a story to Battlecorps, and we can certainly use all the enthusiastict support for more fiction we can give Herb during his next novel push.

Unless you are suggesting I would be the next guy writing spine novels, which i somehow doubt, you're missing the point. If Stackpole's novels were just another "author invents pet unit, they have adventures" his work wouldn't be as underwhelming at it is.


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Fallen_Raven

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #153 on: 12 December 2011, 00:27:45 »
We won't know if we don't try. But my point was more along the lines of, since so many people are upset by the way some of the classic novels are written, perhaps those people can produce the books that they are looking for. After all, problems are rarely solved by being content.

This is by no means meant to be confrontational, but I really don't see the problem with Stackpole novels. Since I don't see what's wrong, I can't fix them. With the recent developments providing the groundwork for a new Battletech revival, maybe it is time for us to have some new material out there. And if fans have the opportunity to have quality stories be published as legitimate work, perhaps we can solve two problems at once by letting people with objections to Stackpole's novels write some peices that will appeal to new players of similar tastes.
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Caesar Steiner for Archon

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #154 on: 12 December 2011, 15:46:17 »
You really don't see anything wrong with the way he writes the universe as black and white or writes dialogue?
« Last Edit: 12 December 2011, 15:50:25 by Caesar Steiner for Archon »


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Banzai

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #155 on: 12 December 2011, 16:33:06 »
You really don't see anything wrong with the way he writes the universe as black and white or writes dialogue?

I guess I don't see the claims that his universe is black and white as black and white as you do.   :)  He has main characters as either Steiner or Davion (more the former) and thus tends to be LC/FS (etc.)-centric, but his characterizations of Thomas, Sun-Tzu, Ted and his kids, even Ragnar, every major realm gets a decent bite. 

As for dialogue, no one in Battletech's fiction is Mamet or Maugham.  Some of his earliest work is horrid, (Noton's very external internal dialog when Justin fights a Rifleman in the arena for the first time being a great example,) but Sturgeon's Law is a constant. 

Caesar Steiner for Archon

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #156 on: 12 December 2011, 17:06:09 »
Amount of screen time doesn't have anything to do with him dividing the universe up into "heroes" and "villains" (which tends to neatly line up with whether or not you are a Mech pilot).


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ApokalypseTest

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #157 on: 12 December 2011, 17:12:55 »
Just having re-read the early Stackpole stuff (Warrior) and having read it in English for the first time - I don't share most peoples hatred for Stackpole. I started out with Sowrd and Dagger and then worked my way chronologically through the novels. In comparison its pretty much all the same: Ardath Mayhar, Bob Charette, Mike Stackpole - all pleasantly shallow written, all characters somewhat two dimensional cardboard cutouts and well readable.

As far as game related fiction goes, this early stuff beats about 80% of what was published for other games (including D&D and Shadowrun). Its somewhat epic and it keeps important people in focus on a detail level that is utterly unbelievable - but so is the whole Universe. If I want grim and gritty, with believable, multi faceted characters facing real struggles, I will sure as hell not turn to game related military sci-fi.

Could the books be written better? Sure. Do they ruin the past of the Universe in their not-awesomeness? Not for me. We read a soap opera here - all the way through the civil war, its a soap opera - Guiding Light couldn't be different. And I admit I enjoy it - not for being the greatest novellisations of a war ever written but for being entertaining and pleasantly shallow while mouthfeeding my  background tidbits of a beloved universe.

@Archon: Such as Clovis and his Mother in the warrior trilogy? Kai Allards future wife in Blood of Kerensky? Yes, some of the worst political schemers are carricatures, others are less- btw. Romano Lia was a Mechwarrior - still a Villain. If any obvious lines are to be seen its more along the lines of Military = Good - Politicians = Evil. And the only good politicians are former military forced to rule (Kat Steiner, Hanse, Theodore etc.). But that theme isn't originating with Stackpole but rather a trope of the genre military sci-fi (the honor harrington novels spring to mind).
« Last Edit: 12 December 2011, 17:17:40 by ApokalypseTest »

Fallen_Raven

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #158 on: 12 December 2011, 17:20:31 »
You really don't see anything wrong with the way he writes the universe as black and white or writes dialogue?

In a 1980s space opera centered on giant robots, Michael Stackpole exceeds expectations in pretty much every way.

Then again, I like space opera with dividing lines between the good guys and the evil empires that must be destroyed. If I wanted deep plots that explore the human condition I would stick to Assimov and Herbert.
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Banzai

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #159 on: 12 December 2011, 17:47:26 »
Amount of screen time doesn't have anything to do with him dividing the universe up into "heroes" and "villains" (which tends to neatly line up with whether or not you are a Mech pilot).

In military-themed fiction, where are the politicians not villains?  Ever?  Hell, go back to Homer and it breaks that way. 

Alex Keller

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #160 on: 12 December 2011, 18:43:33 »
In military-themed fiction, where are the politicians not villains?  Ever?  Hell, go back to Homer and it breaks that way. 

I'll bite.  How 'bout Star Wars Universe.  We've got several to choose but I like Mon Mothma and Princess Leia.  Both are politicians, not warriors, and they aren't villains. 

But... I do agree with your point.  Most of the villains are politicians while the warriors are seen as somehow pure and above the dirty fighting that takes place on a legislative floor and back room deals.

StCptMara

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #161 on: 12 December 2011, 18:47:52 »
Ladies, Gentlemen, honestly, I see a greater issue with everyone nit-picking on Stackpole...
I say we should join with George Takei and his trying to broker peace between the Star Wars
and Star Trek communities, and join with his urged crusade against the threat to ALL Sci-Fi..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvTCr5Z-0lA
"Victory or Debt!"- The Battlecry of Mercenaries everywhere

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Peacemaker

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #162 on: 12 December 2011, 18:51:04 »
The real problem with Stackpole's writing is how he presents his heroes as superhuman, sometimes to the point of giving his characters actual superpowers just because. My favorite example is how Phelan was able to deduce Anastasius Focht's true identity in less than an hour without any special clues or anything. He just grabbed a computer, crunched the numbers and cracked the mystery like he's Sherlock Holmes or something. Not only is he an elite MechWarrior and a brilliant general, he's also able to outsmart every major intelligence agency. It's ridiculous.

Decoy

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #163 on: 12 December 2011, 18:59:59 »
I thought it took several months for Phelan to figure that out.

Caesar Steiner for Archon

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #164 on: 12 December 2011, 19:36:54 »
In a 1980s space opera centered on giant robots, Michael Stackpole exceeds expectations in pretty much every way.

Then again, I like space opera with dividing lines between the good guys and the evil empires that must be destroyed. If I wanted deep plots that explore the human condition I would stick to Assimov and Herbert.

It's interesting that everyone who takes this angle seems to be a Davion fan. I wonder if it comes from people who desire simplistic storytelling being drawn to the FS due to how it likes to dress itself up in the source material or that they are being told to by the aforementioned space opera.


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Banzai

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #165 on: 12 December 2011, 19:50:56 »
Actually I would argue Stackpole was way more Steiner-centric than Davion-Centric. But be that as it may.

And I have been a Davionista since the entire fiction library consisted of two paragraphs per House in the second edition rulebook.  So at least I am consistent.   :)

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #166 on: 12 December 2011, 19:55:58 »
The real problem with Stackpole's writing is how he presents his heroes as superhuman, sometimes to the point of giving his characters actual superpowers just because. My favorite example is how Phelan was able to deduce Anastasius Focht's true identity in less than an hour without any special clues or anything. He just grabbed a computer, crunched the numbers and cracked the mystery like he's Sherlock Holmes or something. Not only is he an elite MechWarrior and a brilliant general, he's also able to outsmart every major intelligence agency. It's ridiculous.

As pointed out, it was far longer than an hour.  And it was pretty clear that he fell into it rather than anything else.  But I am also convinced that everyone in the Inner Sphere is completely fooled when someone grows a beard and changes their name.   Sort of like Superman and his glasses on a universal scale. 

Caesar Steiner for Archon

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #167 on: 12 December 2011, 20:03:23 »
Actually I would argue Stackpole was way more Steiner-centric than Davion-Centric. But be that as it may.

He uses it as backdrops so his awesome Davion/Mercenary heroes can save the day, not much else.


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ColonelCody

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #168 on: 12 December 2011, 21:29:44 »
In military-themed fiction, where are the politicians not villains?  Ever?  Hell, go back to Homer and it breaks that way.
The Honorverse by David Weber, mind you most of he REALLY Villianous VIllians in his books are indeed Politicians. But als oa good number of the heroes too, Admiral White Haven, Queen Elizabeth, of course White Haven and Honor herself are FORCED to be politicians.

ApokalypseTest

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #169 on: 13 December 2011, 00:47:49 »
as mentioned before, the trope is that the only good politicians are military personnel forced into the politicians job - see Honor Harrington , Hanse Davion, Katrina Steiner, Theodore Kurita, Victor Steineretc pp. ad nauseam.

I btw. share the view and I am torn between the Combine (especially the combine during Theodores reforms) and the Clans (more as  a whole sociological experiment than any individual clan). No Davionista here.

Fallen_Raven

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #170 on: 13 December 2011, 01:01:10 »
It's interesting that everyone who takes this angle seems to be a Davion fan. I wonder if it comes from people who desire simplistic storytelling being drawn to the FS due to how it likes to dress itself up in the source material or that they are being told to by the aforementioned space opera.

Actually, my love for the Davions is based off of my unhealthy desire for more Autocannons. It would also be why I like Steiner as a close second.
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Lysenko

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #171 on: 19 December 2011, 23:03:45 »
Privyet!

but thanks to the novels I cannot ****** STAND him; he's that pompous little twit who gives speeches all the time rather than having a conversation.

Oh, thank you! I've had a bad day and that made my night! My feelings on VSD and Hanse all rolled up in one nice little turn of phrase!

I will agree that for the most part that Stackpole does not write in shades of grey. There is one notable exception, however: Sun-Tzu Liao. He is shown as craft and intelligent, not mad in the BoK trilogy. He is Machiavellian and Machiavellian poltics is not immoral, it is amoral. It is opportunistic and pragmatic. This is in clear contrast to to Kali, Romano, and Max as written by Stackpole.