Author Topic: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?  (Read 44836 times)

greatsarcasmo

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #60 on: 17 April 2011, 00:19:34 »
Well I'm sure they will try to get sold. Imma not hold my breath...
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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #61 on: 22 April 2011, 17:30:36 »
Not about to let this conversation die.  I've made my way almost to the end of the Twilight of the Clans series and damn! has this been an inconsistent series.  I am struggling to get through Prince of Havoc.  If I thought Grave Covenant was irritating, I was not ready for Freebirth.  I remember liking Thurston's other works, but Freebirth really needed some editorial direction.  There were cool moments, but still.

And if I wasn't ready for Freebirth, you can imagine how well Prince of Havoc is sitting with me.  Gressman has his own problems as a writer, but I could enjoy his books for what they were.  This though...

Wereferret

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #62 on: 22 April 2011, 17:46:35 »
I'm about halfway through my first-time read through of the Warrior Trilogy, and I just kind of feel silly reading it.  It definitely is pulpy and I get it was probably written more for young adults, but the characters are so cardboard-thin I can't get hooked into them or identify with them at all.  I came into Battletech through the Dark Age era with the clix game, and while most of those books can draw the same criticisms, I was a bit younger then and probably a little more tolerant of the cheese.  I read the Jade Falcon trilogy about 10 years ago and really liked that one too. 

What's interesting to me is that I just picked up the Battlecorps hardcopy anthology, Vol 1, and so far I'm really digging the stories, actually giving up on finishing Riposte for the time being.  The stories are really well written, and just seem to work...better...in a short story format. 

So what do you think in general of the novel format for Battletech versus a short story format?

Fallen_Raven

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #63 on: 22 April 2011, 18:07:29 »
I really enjoyed the novels. Stackpole doesn't bother me. Then again I like any kind of stories for Battletech.
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abou

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #64 on: 22 April 2011, 18:27:02 »
I had a BattleCorps subscription twice, but didn't continue with it because I couldn't sit myself down to take advantage of all the stories.  Why get a magazine if you aren't going to read it?

What I did read though, I liked.  I also have the first anthology and am looking to get the second.  I think what they've managed to do with the shorter stories and with the authors doing the writing, is step up their game with more experimentation.  Many of those stories are definitely aimed at a more literate demographic.  We're still not talking Grant Morrison or Warren Ellis level, but it's definitely improved.

Then again, I haven't read every word and so I don't know if some authors like to do the Stackpole thing of picking a favorite word and using it over and over again.  Was it Malicious Intent or something where he just kept using "comport"?  Man, that got old.

Also, as a side note -- and I would never have thought I'd say this for a real or fictional character -- but I am glad Word of Blake gassed the Knights of the Inner Sphere.  Paul Masters is so freaking annoying.

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #65 on: 22 April 2011, 21:27:04 »
I am struggling to get through Prince of Havoc. 

IIRC I tossed that one across the living room in frustration a few times myself. Is that the novel which features a scene near the begiing with Focht, Victor, Trent, and a Nova Cat Khan?
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abou

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #66 on: 23 April 2011, 05:15:47 »
Yeah, that would be the one.  Those battle scenes are just awful.

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #67 on: 23 April 2011, 05:58:43 »
Yeah, that would be the one.  Those battle scenes are just awful.

OK I am thinking of the correct book. Thanks! That was the scene where a Com Guard officer is betrayed by both Victor and Focht. I think that was what caused the first toss of the book across the room.  ;)
We hear that there are tumults and riots in Rome, and that voices are raised concerning the army and the quality of our soldiers. Make haste to reassure us that you love and support us as we love and support you, for if we find that we have left our bones to bleach in these sands in vain, then beware the fury of the legions.


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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #68 on: 24 April 2011, 00:02:32 »
OK I am thinking of the correct book. Thanks! That was the scene where a Com Guard officer is betrayed by both Victor and Focht. I think that was what caused the first toss of the book across the room.  ;)

And Karianna Schmidt basicly fighting stupid and out of character. The second the Genyosha broke Zell, it should have been out the
window, with concentrated fire on the dezgra melee 'mechs first..
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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #69 on: 25 April 2011, 09:50:19 »
OK I am thinking of the correct book. Thanks! That was the scene where a Com Guard officer is betrayed by both Victor and Focht. I think that was what caused the first toss of the book across the room.  ;)

He deserved a better fate then to disappear fighting Ice Hellions(or was it Fire Mandrills?)
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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #70 on: 26 April 2011, 15:27:25 »
What I did read though, I liked.  I also have the first anthology and am looking to get the second.

I loved the first anthology.  I have to warn you: in my opinion the second one was a big step back.  Besides the stories not being as compelling or interesting, the editing was atrocious.  In numerous places, the editors notes are left in, sentences are chopped or incomplete, etc. 

There are several good stories in the 2nd anthology, just isn't as good as the first.
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greatsarcasmo

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #71 on: 26 April 2011, 22:26:31 »
I loved the first anthology.  I have to warn you: in my opinion the second one was a big step back.  Besides the stories not being as compelling or interesting, the editing was atrocious.  In numerous places, the editors notes are left in, sentences are chopped or incomplete, etc. 

There are several good stories in the 2nd anthology, just isn't as good as the first.
emphasis mine.

Really? How did that get past the, um, editors?! I don't think I have ever seen a print book with that.
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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #72 on: 27 April 2011, 12:17:37 »
Ah, Prince of Havoc. That was a frustrating book from a lot of angles, and not all of it was Stackpole's fault.  This was in the Twilight of FASA, and they had not been paying him his royalties, they cut his contract percentage (at a time when he was on the NYT Bestseller list, and the payments should be going up,) they had cut his page count and given him a hard limit, ROC had apparently farmed his cover art out to a middle school boy who loved the BT cartoon, and he had been orphaned by several editors at ROC.  And he thought that because of all the above, as much as he loved working in BT and was loyal to the brand,  it would be his last book for them.  (Well, for FASA at least.)  So no one was happy at all with that one. 

From a story standpoint, the whole logic of the Great Refusal didn't make any sense, not even from the questionable logic of Clan thinking.  And the Wolves getting a pass because they didn't lose? What?  And then Focht, with the Invader Galaxy, which was designed to fight as if they were Claners, chooses to use no captured Clan 'Mechs and has to march far enough they have combat losses from the walk, and then forgets everything they know about fighting Clanners.  I know they had to give Pryde the win to because she is the “future of the Falcons”, and the Falcons needed a win to keep them from getting killed off as a Clan, but really, that could have been better handled. 

Oh, and don't get me started on how Katherine/Katrina ends up with all of the FC and Victor does nothing but take up gardening.  I know that the Civil War was going to be the Next Big Thing, and they didn't want to dig into it yet, but that just fell flat. 

Cripes, considering I haven't read the book in years, the bad parts apparently stuck!  ;D

ColBosch

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #73 on: 27 April 2011, 16:01:13 »
Oh, and don't get me started on how Katherine/Katrina ends up with all of the FC and Victor does nothing but take up gardening.  I know that the Civil War was going to be the Next Big Thing, and they didn't want to dig into it yet, but that just fell flat.

All else is granted, but wasn't the gardening thing just a cover for his shift to ComStar?
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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #74 on: 27 April 2011, 16:12:34 »
Not to start out, no.  He was considering retiring to a life of contemplative gardening which was an honorable career for many former warlords in feudal Japan, and as seeing he is now Japaneses, it seemed a good fit.  Or something like that.  His friends showed up in dribs and drabs to tell him to stop being a yutz and get back on the horse and all that, and he told them, “no, I am a gardener now,” then Focht said “Nice garden.  I have a job opening,” and that was that.   

Though I admit the big reveal was a Crowning Moment of Awesome.  Almost worth reading the book for.

Saatch

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #75 on: 21 May 2011, 08:48:39 »
I try to read Stackpole like a sourcebook. His style of expository dialogue and character interactions is pretty weak, but it conveys information. I find I can be more patient reading him that way.

Having said that, I do like his "Focht". I think he's decently developed. The rest, meh, they're just vehicles to get me information. Live or die, I don't really care.

Doug Glendower

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #76 on: 23 May 2011, 16:32:58 »
Michael Stackpole may be the greatest author in the history of publishing. He's managed to sell the same novel several dozen times.

That said, he is what he is, a serial writer, a pulp fictionist. He's not going to give you the depth of a Bradbury or a Stephenson, but he's going to give you a pot boiler that should entertain you for your eight-and-change. I'd never, ever buy a Stackpole Hardback, but his paperbacks have been good paperbacks.

It is rare to even have serials try to give an outstanding depth to the stories in fear they'll make the rest look bad. For the most part, Star Wars has been fairly consistant (with the exception of Black Fleet) in terms of writing quality (if not plot consistancy). On the other hand, Star Trek's problem is that every time that the Reeves-Stevens wrote a book, all the others seemed a bit... stupid. And in all fairness after purging my library, many were.

Caesar Steiner for Archon

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #77 on: 24 May 2011, 03:59:48 »
And Karianna Schmidt basicly fighting stupid and out of character. The second the Genyosha broke Zell, it should have been out the
window, with concentrated fire on the dezgra melee 'mechs first..

A Home Clan that's isolated even by Home Clan standards does something dumb vis a vis the IS? Naw. 

It was being fluffed at the time that the supposed "dezgra tactics" used by the IS were suspected by people like the Blood Spirits and Ice Hellions to just be excuses for the Invading Clans' lack of success and that they didn't actually translate to a battlefield advantage.  Cause you know, fighting fairly always makes you more likely to win.

Long story short? The Blood Spirits cut with the dull side of the knife.


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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #78 on: 24 May 2011, 04:13:13 »
A Home Clan that's isolated even by Home Clan standards does something dumb vis a vis the IS? Naw. 

It was being fluffed at the time that the supposed "dezgra tactics" used by the IS were suspected by people like the Blood Spirits and Ice Hellions to just be excuses for the Invading Clans' lack of success and that they didn't actually translate to a battlefield advantage.  Cause you know, fighting fairly always makes you more likely to win.

Long story short? The Blood Spirits cut with the dull side of the knife.

Except, of course, it was a Defensive battle, and Blood Spirits already knew that using "dezgra" tactics, like concentrated
fire, etc, DID translate to a battlefield advantage, since they had not used Zell on York in a couple centuries. I would consider
the natural reaction of a Blood Spirit Warrior, let alone their Khan, on the first violation of Zellbrigen to have been "Foul, foul!
Dezgra!" and then all bets of honourable combat go out the window.
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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #79 on: 08 August 2011, 21:16:06 »
Stackpole could be worse, Weber comes to mind..


Here a really sick/great idea! Have Stackpole to write one novel for Honorverse and Weber to write one for Battletech!
I have seen worse sci-fi writing, (novel version of Dawn of War comes to mind), admittedly, Stackpole tend glorified certain characters and cardboard others and continuities errors, but this isn't solely his fault, other Battletech writers too are biased on certain factions (Steiner, Clan Wolf and Jade Falcon) and people (Chris Archer, Kells). All I can say is Battletech is a huge and ongoing saga, and I like all nuance and flaws. 

Drasius

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #80 on: 17 August 2011, 23:39:10 »
The quality of work by Stackpole does seem to decline over time, but to me he is the defining author of battletech as the 2 major turning points (4th SW and CLan invasion) were covered in his trilogies. I have all but 2 of the pre DA novels and must say I think he along with Coleman and maybe Gressman are the top tier of authors.

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #81 on: 21 August 2011, 03:54:32 »
I'd like to disagree with that, Stackpole is not my favorite but Having read all his BT work I think he starts out weak and gets better, Warrior Trilogy was corny and the dialogue was painful, BOK was a  vast improvement except for the emo drama of Kai and the annoying antics of the ruling families children, Natural Selection seemed to grow those characters more as did Assumption Of Risk and Bred For War.

Malicious Intent felt like a logical conclusion of the strife between the crusader and warden factions of the Wolves and Jade Falcons, and Vlad beating the crap out of Elias Crichell is one of my top five favorite BT novel moments ever.

The only problem I had with Grave Covenant was the weird random line about the guy who was explaining entropy based warfare, I thought the line about how his ebon skin spoke of his African Ancestry, but his crisp and concise gait as he approached the podium attested to military upbringing and training" was a bit curious, what does his skin color have to do with it, am I reading to much in to that? Other than that I saw no problem with it.

Prince Of Havoc was cool, although Victor killing Osis was cheesy,  but then again I kind of expected it, they clearly set up Victor getting a katana  so I knew he was going to use it on someone at some point.

Ghost War was better than all of the preceding in my opinion, had kind of a new style of narrative and didn't run the same old tropes in to the ground like the the first two trilogies, I liked it alot!

Haven't read Masters Of War yet, although the whole Wolves moving to Steiner Space for no discernible reason sounds more than a bit offputting, however I'd like to stand by my original statement, I think Stackpole got better rather than worse.

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #82 on: 21 August 2011, 04:08:45 »
Just a description. If someone has a black skintone, he has a black skintone. It's not like we need to see potential racism or the likes in it. Heck usually there are plenty of complaints of a lack of 'black' people. He merely described the character and the impression he gave of visually.


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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #83 on: 22 August 2011, 02:12:40 »
Just a description. If someone has a black skintone, he has a black skintone. It's not like we need to see potential racism or the likes in it. Heck usually there are plenty of complaints of a lack of 'black' people. He merely described the character and the impression he gave of visually.
I see what you're getting at, however it was just that whole but between the two observations, made it seem like the author or the narrative or whatever felt like the the two statements were normally diametrically opposed and required that particular conjunction, seems like an and between the two observations would have been less suspect, but I fear I'm splitting hairs or over thinking it at this point.  So let's move on.

How does Masters of War rate in your guy's opinion if compared with the rest, I know everyone has a different opinion so I'm more looking to see which of the previous works it is most similar too in regards to style pacing and tone, so I can guess what I'm in for. Like is it kind of drawn out and evenly paced like BOK or Warrior, or is it quick and to the point like Malicious Intent, or is it totally different POW SURPRISE before slowing back down like Ghost War? I'd buy it and find out buy the only copy I can find right now feel a little too rich for my blood given it's age.
« Last Edit: 22 August 2011, 02:15:48 by StoneGiant »
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Caesar Steiner for Archon

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #84 on: 22 August 2011, 02:16:46 »
The only problem I had with Grave Covenant was the weird random line about the guy who was explaining entropy based warfare, I thought the line about how his ebon skin spoke of his African Ancestry, but his crisp and concise gait as he approached the podium attested to military upbringing and training" was a bit curious, what does his skin color have to do with it, am I reading to much in to that? Other than that I saw no problem with it.

Wait, he actually used a "but" in there?  That's almost as off-putting a glimpse in to Stackpole's head as his scene in Ghost War where he smugly explains how a hulking man with military training is in the right to assault a college-age girl, on account of her political views.


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StoneGiant

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #85 on: 22 August 2011, 02:26:21 »
Wait, he actually used a "but" in there?  That's almost as off-putting a glimpse in to Stackpole's head as his scene in Ghost War where he smugly explains how a hulking man with military training is in the right to assault a college-age girl, on account of her political views.
I remember that, seemed a bit odd! Then again maybe Sam / Mason was just thinking in character to be the most convincing burly lumberjack manly man he possibly could. Besides wasn't that college girl like an eco terrorist or something, thus making it "okay"?

Anyway yeah page 77, I'd post a screen shot but not sure how it would violate the copyright, so never mind.
« Last Edit: 22 August 2011, 02:29:05 by StoneGiant »
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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #86 on: 22 August 2011, 02:57:32 »
She wasn't an eco-terrorist, she was some college kid raising money for a charity that was a front for eco-terrorists. And of course she needed to learn the TRUTH ABOUT HOW SHE IS TOO SOFT TO HANDLE WAR.  Considering how most of his main characters are already uncomfortable levels of author wish-fulfillment, I'm starting to think Stackpole's views are remarkably creepy.


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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #87 on: 22 August 2011, 08:26:24 »
She wasn't an eco-terrorist, she was some college kid raising money for a charity that was a front for eco-terrorists. And of course she needed to learn the TRUTH ABOUT HOW SHE IS TOO SOFT TO HANDLE WAR.  Considering how most of his main characters are already uncomfortable levels of author wish-fulfillment, I'm starting to think Stackpole's views are remarkably creepy.

Well, the following lengthy quote comes from novel Assumption of Risk with Kai Allard-Liao suddenly explaining to Katherine Steiner-Davion something about his views about society and naturally her agreeing to his views...

Quote
The procession of three hovercars glided through the grimy, rain-slick streets of Silesia like a pack of wolves trotting through game-rich forests. Though no one on the streets could have recognized the vehicles, people did seem to recognize their intent and purposefulness. The black aircars took the corners crisply and lunged forward through the streets, focusing on attaining their goal, not meandering aimlessly through the twisted warrens.

Kai Allard-Liao sat in the corner of the back seat more interested in the reactions of his fellow passengers than the world outside the windows. Nancy Bao Lee sat next to him, comfortably close, but uncomfortable because Omi was seated on her other side. Thomas DeLon sat across from Kai, with Katrina in the middle and Galen opposite Omi. The three visiting nobles studied the streets intently, gasping or frowning as the headlights froze in sharp chiaroscuro some improbably brutal or chilling street scene.

Katrina shook her head as she caught a glimpse of two people fighting over a scrap of cloth. "How can people live like that?"

"They live like that when they have no choice." Kai shifted around in his seat, wedging his spine into where the seat met the car's side wall. "In a free market system, there are always people who will not fit in and will be reduced to this level of poverty. If you don't want to see it, you create governmental structures and legislation that guarantee people housing, food, and employment, but that also gives you a police state."

The duchess frowned as Kai spoke. "Someone has to do something. They're living like animals."
"Some people do." Kai glanced over at DeLon. "I've been working here to fund a number of charitable enterprises and, by example, embarrass many of my fellow stable owners into doing the same. Ultimately, though, we can only provide opportunities for people. We cannot force them to take advantage of them."

Katrina nodded. "Forcing them would be akin to slavery."

"People can be educated and offered the chance to take responsibility for themselves." Omi's quiet voice barely sounded above the background hum of the hovercar's fans. "When they cannot accept responsibility for themselves, compassion dictates that we must do whatever possible to comfort them."

"Exactly." Kai's head came up as the hovercar slowed. The lead vehicle slued around in front of them to block Arnulf Street just to the west of a nondescript warehouselike building. The car's doors opened as it settled to the ground and four Federated Commonwealth security men got out. Behind the middle car the vehicle carrying the Combine security forces likewise twisted around to block Arnulf Street to the east before its complement of security men also poured out.
[\quote]

StoneGiant

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #88 on: 23 August 2011, 04:38:59 »
It's pretty jarring how sure of himself Kai became when you think back to the crushing semi suicidal self doubt he portrayed in the beginning of his introduction. I think it would have been more beliveable if his confidence in his abilities / convictions came more gradually, but as I remember it he basically flipped a switch towards the end of BOK.  [tickedoff]  Oh well at least there was the Dancing Joker in the later books.
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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #89 on: 23 August 2011, 10:28:05 »
I'm just glad I read the Stackpole books in my early teens.  They seemed like good books back then.