VTOL chin turret

[Porkins]

Hello all.

I was sure I read something about this on the forum or errata but have searched in vain, so I am hoping someone can help me out.

Today a friend was operating a vtol with a chin turret and saw it has armour and internal structure.  So how do you hit it?  It does not show on the vehicle hit table and I could not find anything in the TO equipment description that mentioned how it could be hit.

Anyone know?  If so, where is that info?

Thanks.

[Acolyte]

It should have been on the record sheet, but it takes up the "4" roll on every table.

   - Shane

[Porkins]

Weird that there is nothing in TO about that since the rules or rule modifications for that equipment should be in there.

Thanks!

[Scotty]

There's a slightly separate record sheet for it, if it alters the record sheet like that.  At least, there should be.  If your friend didn't bring it, that's on him.

[Porkins]

The vtol was printed from HMVee and there was nothing there as we normally print 2 to a sheet.  I own RS3145Unabridged and so see the modified table there with the turret in position 4.

However, I don't think it was "on him" - it s/b "on Catalyst" for not indicating the rule change elicited by their equipment.  If you introduce new equipment into TO that modifies existing rules in your core rulebook i.e. the hit location table for VTOLs in TW, then a normal expectation would be to have that rule change spelled out in TO.  It should not just be something that works its way into their separate RS products. 

[Akalabeth]

I think Tactical Ops has special record sheets at the back of it does it not? Even so the rules for the turret should have a note about what location the chin turret is hit on.

[Arkansas Warrior]

The vtol was printed from HMVee and there was nothing there as we normally print 2 to a sheet.  I own RS3145Unabridged and so see the modified table there with the turret in position 4.

However, I don't think it was "on him" - it s/b "on Catalyst" for not indicating the rule change elicited by their equipment.  If you introduce new equipment into TO that modifies existing rules in your core rulebook i.e. the hit location table for VTOLs in TW, then a normal expectation would be to have that rule change spelled out in TO.  It should not just be something that works its way into their separate RS products.

HMV is years out of date.  I'm pretty sure it's last update predates the release of TacOps.

[Acolyte]

I think Tactical Ops has special record sheets at the back of it does it not? Even so the rules for the turret should have a note about what location the chin turret is hit on.

Yep! And to be fair, that`s the only place I found the modified chart.

   - Shane

[Xotl]

A sheet with the turret has been in TacOps since the first print (p. 394).  And yes, HMVee is way too out of date to reflect that.

[Porkins]

Sounds good.  Thanks.

[SCC]

Wait, you don't print out the full RS and when you have trouble it's someone else fault? More to the point, any time a vehicle has altered locations you should check the OFFICIAL RS for a changed hit chart

And be careful with HMV, I know that at least one editor that used to require armor for sponsons, and if the rules used to require that

[Porkins]

Wait, you don't print out the full RS and when you have trouble it's someone else fault? More to the point, any time a vehicle has altered locations you should check the OFFICIAL RS for a changed hit chart

And what exactly in the TO description of the chin turret indicates that the locations have been altered?  Nothing, so yes that is Catalyst's fault.  Every other piece of equipment like special armor and such either has no effect on hit locations or else mentions it (eg protomechs) but this one does not.

They made an omission, which is fine.  I do not mind and I simply posted here to get clarification.  But please do not try to lay the blame on us.  We read the section of rules over, it said nothing, so we were confused.

As for printing official RS, HMV is the official RS software for battletech - that is what TW says inside - so I would expect it to print properly.  We know it is out of date so that is why we checked the rules and ... Nothing mentioned there.  So that is our fault?  Don't think so.

From the tone of your email, I suspect you feel differently, but it changes nothing - there should be mention in that section of TO that a core rule table is changed by said equipment. 

[Scotty]

And what exactly in the TO description of the chin turret indicates that the locations have been altered?  Nothing, so yes that is Catalyst's fault.

All vehicle turrets add a new hit location.  It's an obvious inference.  That said, take it to the errata boards if you feel it's a serious enough issue to warrant inclusion.

[Akalabeth]

All vehicle turrets add a new hit location.  It's an obvious inference.  That said, take it to the errata boards if you feel it's a serious enough issue to warrant inclusion.

What other changes are made to the Record Sheet? Shouldn't all of these changes be listed in the rules where appropriate?
Having it only on the record sheet is the same as giving a player two nearly identical pictures and asking them to spot the differences without even telling them how many.

[Porkins]

All vehicle turrets add a new hit location.  It's an obvious inference.  That said, take it to the errata boards if you feel it's a serious enough issue to warrant inclusion.

I don't agree and there is no "inference" for vehicle turrets.  TW PG 192 "Turret Hits: If the combat vehicle has no turret, a turret hit strikes the armor on the side attacked". 

I do not have to go to the record sheet - I know what happens and how the table is changed.  Therefore if the Chin turret also changes the normal hit location table, then it too should mention in its description what the change is - I should not have to go the RS.

And there's no use to taking it to errata as that won't change my printed book. 

And this conversation is just a waste of time now as a few of you are simply trying to defend an omission of a core rule table by a special piece of equipment byu placing the blame on players following the ruleboooks, which is your purvue but changes nothing.

Thank you to those who responded with helpful replies to my question.

Moderators, please close this thread.

[SCC]

Those new tables are in TO, page 394, in high contrast B&W, perfect for photocopying. And given that the tables take up most of a half page I can understand why CGL didn't want to put them in twice. More to the point it doesn't look like half page RS are legal for VTOLs

[Paul]

Therefore if the Chin turret also changes the normal hit location table, then it too should mention in its description what the change is - I should not have to go the RS.

I agree.

And there's no use to taking it to errata as that won't change my printed book. 

Well, it'll help us with reprints and the PDF, so errata for stuff like this is appreciated. If you have some suggested phrasing, I'll doodle up an errata report for the next review. p.348 is prob the best spot, I reckon?

Paul

[Porkins]

Well, it'll help us with reprints and the PDF, so errata for stuff like this is appreciated. If you have some suggested phrasing, I'll doodle up an errata report for the next review. p.348 is prob the best spot, I reckon?

Paul

OK if it helps.  I will post to the errata forum.

[Paul]

OK if it helps.  I will post to the errata forum.

Thankew, I think it will. Feel free to link to this post in the errata report.

[FedComGirl]

Hi,

I'm glad you're posting an errata and I do hope it helps in the future. I do have a question about what you said though. Please don't take this as an attack. I'm just confused. It's my natural state.

You said,

I don't agree and there is no "inference" for vehicle turrets.  TW PG 192 "Turret Hits: If the combat vehicle has no turret, a turret hit strikes the armor on the side attacked". 

I do not have to go to the record sheet - I know what happens and how the table is changed.  Therefore if the Chin turret also changes the normal hit location table, then it too should mention in its description what the change is - I should not have to go the RS.

Wouldn't it be easier to use the VTOL record sheet with the chin turret on it? It already has the location and bubbles to mark off as points are lost.

Like I said. I'm confused. Anyway, have fun in your game. :)

Cheers

[Scotty]

Additionally, there's a big difference between non-VTOL combat vehicle turrets, which are part of Total Warfare and tournament legal, and VTOL Chin Turrets, which are niche rules in TacOps and in no way tournament legal at all.  Expecting both to be treated identically when they're very much not identical strikes me as not the best of ideas.

[FedComGirl]

According to TRO:Prototypes VTOL Chin Turrets do become tournament level though. I suppose that makes Total Warfare outdated?  :-\

[SCC]

You said,
Wouldn't it be easier to use the VTOL record sheet with the chin turret on it? It already has the location and bubbles to mark off as points are lost.

Like I said. I'm confused. Anyway, have fun in your game. :)

He used HMV to print out the sheet, and told it to do them two to a page, which means that the hit location chart wasn't attached.

It's also quite possible invalid, CGL has not put out a VTOL half page RS

[FedComGirl]

He used HMV to print out the sheet, and told it to do them two to a page, which means that the hit location chart wasn't attached.

It's also quite possible invalid, CGL has not put out a VTOL half page RS

Thanks. I can see HMV being a problem.

I don't know why the RS wouldn't be valid though. Without tables vehicle RS only take up half a page so two vehicle RSs have shared the same page. Only printing the half you need shouldn't invalidate it. Being printed with outdated software using a different rule set would I would think invalidate it.

[SCC]

VTOL RS extended over more then just a half page, the elevation tracker is on the lower half, that's why CGL never produced a half page version

[Akalabeth]

Additionally, there's a big difference between non-VTOL combat vehicle turrets, which are part of Total Warfare and tournament legal, and VTOL Chin Turrets, which are niche rules in TacOps and in no way tournament legal at all.  Expecting both to be treated identically when they're very much not identical strikes me as not the best of ideas.

Essentially what you're saying here is that TacOps is allowed to be crappy and poorly written because it's not tournament legal.

Wouldn't it be easier to use the VTOL record sheet with the chin turret on it? It already has the location and bubbles to mark off as points are lost.

I believe they printed off a record sheet with the turret on it, just not the hit location chart.
When they examined the rules, the manner in which those rules apply to the normal hit location chart were not mentioned.
It would be easier if the rules for the Chin Turret were located all on the same page including any modification to standard game play.

[FedComGirl]

VTOL RS extended over more then just a half page, the elevation tracker is on the lower half, that's why CGL never produced a half page version

Didn't remember the elevation tracker. Nice thing to have. Older Record Sheets for VTOLs didn't have those. Some did have turrets but not elevation trackers.

I believe they printed off a record sheet with the turret on it, just not the hit location chart.
When they examined the rules, the manner in which those rules apply to the normal hit location chart were not mentioned.
It would be easier if the rules for the Chin Turret were located all on the same page including any modification to standard game play.

That's cool. Not all the VTOL charts are the same. And I agree it would be nice if all the rules/text about an item were on the same page. But I'm still confused. TO page 348 says

The Chin Turret follows all the standard rules for a vehicle turret except that it cannot be used to target units standing (or flying) at a higher elevation than the VTOL itself.

So why wouldn't they just follow the rules in TW and play on?

[Akalabeth]

So why wouldn't they just follow the rules in TW and play on?

Because the HIT LOCATION CHARTS in Total Warfare don't have a location labelled "Turret" for VTOLs.

[FedComGirl]

Because the HIT LOCATION CHARTS in Total Warfare don't have a location labelled "Turret" for VTOLs.

But why would it? Total Warfare is strictly tournament legal.  Until recently Chin Turrets weren't tournament legal. They're were an advanced level item that required an advanced level record sheet. As such they wouldn't be found in Total Warfare.

I suppose there should be a new printing with an appendix listing items that have changed rule levels and where to find them in other books, as well as the new tournament legal record sheets.

[Porkins]

Perhaps you did understand the intent of my postings - maybe I was unclear.

1) TW has the standard vtol hit locations.  #4 location has rotors.
2) TO describes the rules for using chin turrets
3) the chin turret replaces the rotors for the #4 location but no where does it say this in the rules describing the chin turret
4) such a change should be described there as it creates an exception in the normal rules and vtol chart

Ergo the problem we encountered was how to hit the chin location when the rules provided no guidance.  As such Paul advised me to add this omission to the errata.

I hope that helps because I cannot describe it any clearer; perhaps others can if you are still confused.

My last posting to this thread.  Thanks.