Has anyone run into the 'Too much money' problem in the RPG?

[Khymerion]

Like the topic title states, I recently ran into a minor problem of getting a game rolling and something odd came up.   Everyone made their characters separately, mostly because I wanted to not waste a day just making characters so I hunted them down each on different days.  The problem I came up with is this...  most went and made exactly what you expect to from BT players... grizzled veteran mech pilots with incredible skills in piloting and their own personal mechs, one went so far as to get a custom modified machine.  One made a phenomenal technician who could pilot and fight in a pinch.   No problem there.   They were as broke as you expect a rag tag group of mercs to be.

Then came the last two.   They made nobles.   They didn't care about the piloting of mech aspects...  they have the most basic of skills in that regard, they all went for the massive land holdings and titles.  They had social skills and command skills.   And then came the shock of seeing just how much money they were pulling in... without ever having to leave their homes.

Normally, it seems like not a bad thing... till they start throwing around cash like a Lanister from Game of Thrones or the worst stereotypes of a Steiner.  Should I really go at it like I was running a BT version of A Song of Ice and Fire?   Because these two could hire mercs that could match any of the other players, equip them with the best equipment money and connections can buy, and outfit a unit that puts them to shame... so it kind of relegates the mech jockeys to being.. well..  bodyguards/elite escorts at best for these two nobles.

I think things just start really getting odd because there is very very very little you can do with the framework of the game that isn't purchasing ships, mechs, fighters, and other bits of equipment and military personel.   Frustrating is a better word for it.   The game really starts to seem a bit creaky when those RPers start asking for things like how much infrastructure costs in their hopes to create better domains to rule over.

So, how do other GMs handle the problem of having players coming right out of the gate with so much money that they are actually contemplating monster purchases like brand new mech companies and then saying 'Well, what else do we have to buy?   This is our post tax income!'.    I mean, I could start imposing things like 'Your lord higher up is demanding constant tithes of cash and equipment...  but that is cutting into what is indeed referred to as the 'annual PERSONAL income' and not administration/logistic costs... this is the out of pocket funds, right?

So, I think the question I really am asking is...  how do you handle a game with TWO dukes (with appropriate property holdings) running around?   Should I just go and tell them 'Sorry...  I can only have a single super noble...  pick who gets to be the one...  in this flaming circle of death I have carved into the snow out back.'   They did both come to the same conclusion without talking to each other or knowing the other's plans.

[NullVoid]

Depends on the time frame.  In our campaign, we have just reached the Clan Invasion, and let me tell you, facing them is a huge money pit.  There is not enough materiel production, and that means BIG markups (mainly aerospace, we're always getting our escort ASFs totaled, and have managed to lose two Overlords so far, as well as our old Aquilla-class junker jumpship to a nuke strike from a pirate lord enemy event; but also mechs since the FC and the DC are buying or comandeering everything in sight)

In other words, this is a boardgame campaign universe; if the money is going too long a way, there's always pirates, rival nobles trying to muscle out economic competition, spendthrift dependents or just plain war rationing to keep them from totally derailing the game for the other players.  That being said, you can always give the others the option to getting knighted and start making headway into industrialism themselves.  Eventually war and fame might allow them to marry up the social ladder...

[Maelwys]

Well, the two Dukes have spent +20 TP on Traits presumably (10 on Title, 10 on Property. Any higher and they've reached the NPC level), and are pulling down 15,000,000 c-bills per Year. Yeah, they can definitely pull off hiring a merc to fight for them, though companies and their support might be a bit tough (not saying its impossible, mind you).

You could start hitting them with personal costs. Houses back on whatever planet they're from. Money to keep up appearances. You can also start rolling for what happens to the planets as well. Maybe while the noble is off with the merc unit, someone on the planet starts a pro-democracy movement. Does the player try to hire the other players to come back and put down the rebellion? Maybe their retainers taking care of things back home run off with the money one year due to an absentee landholder.

Unfortunately for you, it seems they sort of reached that point where the scale of things goes out of whack. To have two of them do it at the same time...ouch.

[bluedragon7]

Think about what kind of campaign you want to play. Not every Char possible will fit, so i usually tell the players what will be the tone of the campaign and what type of charakters i expect. i am not very strict on this, but i expect them to have a motivation of their own to participate. If the nobles do not want to participate in Mechbattle on their own but rather buy surrogates, then they dont fit a small scale merc unit.

Long years back we had a double blind BT campaing with each side having MW2 characters for each participant.
One side sold their mechs, used the money to hire lots of mercs and attacked the other, which could only afford a few militia due to sticking to their own mechs. Somewhat ruined the game.

If you fear that happening, talk to your nobles and ask them to reconsider.

[scJazz]

Like the topic title states, I recently ran into a minor problem of getting a game rolling and something odd came up.   Everyone made their characters separately, mostly because I wanted to not waste a day just making characters so I hunted them down each on different days.  The problem I came up with is this...  most went and made exactly what you expect to from BT players... grizzled veteran mech pilots with incredible skills in piloting and their own personal mechs, one went so far as to get a custom modified machine.  One made a phenomenal technician who could pilot and fight in a pinch.   No problem there.   They were as broke as you expect a rag tag group of mercs to be.

Then came the last two.   They made nobles.   They didn't care about the piloting of mech aspects...  they have the most basic of skills in that regard, they all went for the massive land holdings and titles.  They had social skills and command skills.   And then came the shock of seeing just how much money they were pulling in... without ever having to leave their homes.

Normally, it seems like not a bad thing... till they start throwing around cash like a Lanister from Game of Thrones or the worst stereotypes of a Steiner.  Should I really go at it like I was running a BT version of A Song of Ice and Fire?   Because these two could hire mercs that could match any of the other players, equip them with the best equipment money and connections can buy, and outfit a unit that puts them to shame... so it kind of relegates the mech jockeys to being.. well..  bodyguards/elite escorts at best for these two nobles.

I think things just start really getting odd because there is very very very little you can do with the framework of the game that isn't purchasing ships, mechs, fighters, and other bits of equipment and military personel.   Frustrating is a better word for it.   The game really starts to seem a bit creaky when those RPers start asking for things like how much infrastructure costs in their hopes to create better domains to rule over.

So, how do other GMs handle the problem of having players coming right out of the gate with so much money that they are actually contemplating monster purchases like brand new mech companies and then saying 'Well, what else do we have to buy?   This is our post tax income!'.    I mean, I could start imposing things like 'Your lord higher up is demanding constant tithes of cash and equipment...  but that is cutting into what is indeed referred to as the 'annual PERSONAL income' and not administration/logistic costs... this is the out of pocket funds, right?

So, I think the question I really am asking is...  how do you handle a game with TWO dukes (with appropriate property holdings) running around?   Should I just go and tell them 'Sorry...  I can only have a single super noble...  pick who gets to be the one...  in this flaming circle of death I have carved into the snow out back.'   They did both come to the same conclusion without talking to each other or knowing the other's plans.

House Rule #1: Never do anything that might get you punched in the face :) Sounds like these two jokers went and broke that rule.

GM Rule #1: When players min/max the rules in such a way as to destroy Game Play there is only one solution. Deus Ex Machina!

That income is mostly investment related and represents an Average. It isn't 15,000,000.00 CB every year. Start by making the payout monthly. Then hit their landhold with an earthquake, plague, insurrection (or all of the above) to reduce their income to non-obnoxious levels. Finally, since we are mostly talking about investments, rents, etc randomize it!

example 1d6 roll...

1 - Large Negative Bonus
2 - Small Negative Bonus
3 & 4 - Normal
5 - Small Positive Bonus
6 - Large Positive Bonus

Finally, add in some extra evil... Markets tend toward trends so once things go Negative they will tend to stay negative for awhile. The same applies to a Positive Market. While this is overly simplified a Normal Healthy Market will tend toward slight positive growth in the 2% to 5% area over a long term. If the growth happens faster or if there is an over long positive trend a Market will collapse significantly and then start the process of rebuilding after a period of "Shock" elapses from the collapse.

Overall, the fix for Prince Igottalottacbills is to just get RANDOM with a side of MEAN!

[NullVoid]

Overall, the fix for Prince Igottalottacbills is to just get RANDOM with a side of MEAN!

That's the sort of thing that destroys gaming groups.  Ideally, you'd have discussed previously with your players the "tone" of the campaign so everybody made compatible characters.  There's no intrinsic problem with a Song of Fire and Ice in space; it might even be a very fun premise to play.  The problem is when most players have square pegs and the adventures present them with only round holes.  At the beginning of the current campaign I'm playing, us (the PCs) ended up infiltrating a rival mercenary company.  The problem is, we were an aerospace technician, a 'mech jock and an infantryman with barely a +3 of acting between us, and that after adding attribute modifiers... and let's not dwell on the other relevant skills, such as Security Systems and Climbing (ouch!). Let us say it took a lot of fiat to keep us alive through the experience.

The GM should NEVER take a "me vs. them" position in relation to the players.  If the players have put their hands on special game-breaking equipment and it's ruining the campaign, explain it to them and then take it away with a believable in-story reason, but don't have it blow up the player's 'mech in the middle of an important battle. If a munchkin is using a loophole in the rules to be uberchar, explain to that player that that loophole is ruining your (and maybe even the other players's) enjoyment of the game and that the loophole needs to be closed. If the player(s) believes that that makes their character unplayable, allow them to change their characters to address the problem.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

So, how do other GMs handle the problem of having players coming right out of the gate with so much money that they are actually contemplating monster purchases like brand new mech companies and then saying 'Well, what else do we have to buy?   This is our post tax income!'.    I mean, I could start imposing things like 'Your lord higher up is demanding constant tithes of cash and equipment...  but that is cutting into what is indeed referred to as the 'annual PERSONAL income' and not administration/logistic costs... this is the out of pocket funds, right?

  Roll with it.
  The guys I'm GMing have rolled up a bunch of Kais and are curbstomping the Clans without breaking a sweat. The nobles of the bunch are insane wealthy and have set up factories to manufacture Clan Tech -No prob, it was expensive and it took years to tool up but face it, if you have the money, anything can be done.
   One player lost his land holdings for committing atrocities during a rebellion. His commander limited the punishment to paying fines and a slap on the wrist but I let my players hang themselves when they insist on it.
  Most GMs forget that every landed noble has a rival jockeying for that noble's title, wealth and power. Landed Nobles possess their properties at the whim of their sovereign, and every benefit is at the cost of a list of obligations, such as obligatory military service, showing face at social functions, and making sure their subordinates don't get out of line.
 
  Roll with it. Have your players meet REAL social generals with armies of servants to keep them comfortable, mobile brothels to keep the men happy in the field, five-star chefs staffing the mess hall, and pressure your players to get with the program -If they aren't stylin' like the social generals they're just unwashed hicks with a lot of cash. Make them want to spend their money in frivolous extravagances. Work their egos!

  Despite the ample number of curves I throw them, my players are having a blast because anything goes in my universe and sometimes the bad guys get away.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

The problem of too much money in BattleTech is actually pretty analogous to the problem of having too much money in D&D.

"Hooray!  We have a giant pot of gold/c-bills.  We can buy anything we want now!"

No, not really.

In order to buy anything you want, you have to presume there's someone who wants to sell anything you want.  Just because you have enough money to buy a battalion of new mechs does NOT mean there's a battalion of new mechs out there up for sale.

"Well, we could buy a single super expensive item, like a dropship or a jumpship!"

No, not really.  Not unless the GM is ready to give you your own space transport.  Until then, there's just none available on the market.

"Well, we could buy something mundane, like a city!"

Again, who's got a city for sale?  You could theoretically buy some noble's fief and put him into early retirement, but then you are buying yourself a whole new campaign's worth of administration challenges.  And if the GM doesn't to change the game from mechwarriors to scheming noblemen, then he can simply say no there's no noblemen right now who want to be bought out into early retirement. 

Et cetera.

[epic]

...

Increase the threat level?  Perhaps it's just me but... 15 million cbills a year seems like chump change.  I'm used to running merc campaigns where we run a regiment or more, and have that amount monthly as part of our budget. 

Don't get me wrong; it's nothing to sneeze at.  However, a significant threat - say, another Duke or an ambitious Baron who has some good Connections - will have similar resources, and a similar threat level.   A Duke is at a level where they are actually able to engage in interstellar politics and make changes to the realm as a whole.  Other Dukes and powerful nobles will be doing the same.  If you have a Duke in the game, as a PC?  You are getting into that level of power play, imo (hence, I suppose, the earlier Game of Thrones references).   I mean, the two most powerful other nobles in the Fed Suns are both Dukes - the Duke of Robinson, and the Duke of New Syrtis.  Ditto for the nobles in many of the other realms (including the infamous Ricol, I believe). 

"Why, yes, you have an entire company of mechs at your disposal.  So do I... and I saved up to hire an extra battalion of the unit Grubby Mercenary Scum for a 6 month contract.  Who's laughing now, you trumped up peasant?"

[idea weenie]

The other detail is while that may be personal income for the nobles, they are expected to use that income to improve their family's standing.  So bribes, parties, spies, bragging, tech theft, etc is all expected to be done by the Dukes.

I.e. the players are doing an Objective Raid, and the GM has put an extra item on the map (a secondary objective, but still useful).  The PCs have to stay longer, taking more damage, and the only ones that benefit are the nobles.  The nobles would then use part of their monthly allowance to pay for the extra damages/ammo used, but they managed to rescue a VIP, or just helped some civilians get to safety (merchants may be obsessed with the bottom line, but a Duke risking his life for a child is great propaganda).

Or the PCs have to meet with a potential hiring agent.  Normally it would be the PCs trying to shmooze up to the hiring agent to get a better deal.  The nobles have the retainers who can identify items that the agent has always wanted, and will be sure to have them present (rare wines, certain foods, etc) to give bonuses for rolling the Negotiation tests.  The agent feels that they are the ones who have to impress the PCs (they have a pair of Dukes!) and will correspondingly offer better terms.

Based on "What Means to be a Successor Lord", the noble PCs should try for the following:
* possess an inhuman ambition; a ceaseless, insatiable hunger for power, respect, authority.
* every action, every word pursues power, accumulating it, storing it for the future.
* each C-Bill and moment of time should be spent accumulating power however possible
* know the people they are going to meet, and what their strengths/weaknesses are
* have a network of people who are capable of handling situations without his direct intervention (so he has free time)
* find/cultivate the right families to marry to improve his family's position (marry the power)

Oh, and their peers are people that do the same thing.  Expect smear campaigns, spies sneaking in, rivals taking credit for what the nobles do, tipping off pirates, etc.  They will not actively help the enemy, but they will keep the noble busy with small details.  Expect their rivals to be constantly trying to seduce away their potential marriage partners, taking the mercenary contracts they need, buying the assembly line products, etc.  All sorts of stuff that will strengthen the overall realm, but weaken the PCs family.  The PC will need to do the same, plus doing his best to point his rivals at someone else so he has some breathing room, and eventually getting them on his side.  He has to do all this while not making enough of a stir that his Lord cracks down due to the disruptions being caused.

[Kitsune413]

The nobles of the bunch are insane wealthy and have set up factories to manufacture Clan Tech -No prob, it was expensive and it took years to tool up but face it, if you have the money, anything can be done.

That's ignoring the GDP of Successor States. If simply having money meant that you could build Clan Tech then it would have been done. Don't get me wrong. Your game, your thing. But everytime I've ever seen 'Players' build a factory its happened in a vacuum. CEO's, Successor States, Lawyers, or any other number of things aren't involved.

What does Irian Weapons think of these clantech factories? What do the Clans think of these clan tech factories? Where did they get the raw materials. Who is in charge? Whats their administration skill. Do conniving people on their board of directors ever try to cut them out?

If your players are having fun that's good. But you're missing a lot of opportunities to show them just how cut throat business in the sphere is.

Roll with it.

This. Honestly you got really lucky with those players. They have a lot of money. That gives them a lot of prestige and power. But its not in a vacuum. They are going to have entirely different problems than paying for where their mech stays. Keeping it armored and armed.

Make it fun.


When I do campaigns a lot of the time I do it from multiple levels. So they will have some noble characters that are in the know. Then they'll play special forces or mech pilots or something like that. Cut the story into different layers.

[Kitsune413]

.
In order to buy anything you want, you have to presume there's someone who wants to sell anything you want.  Just because you have enough money to buy a battalion of new mechs does NOT mean there's a battalion of new mechs out there up for sale.

if you're in the 3145 time period then this is a pretty gigantic issue. People with real money want to buy battlemechs. Not your dirt poor fifteen million a year nobles. So they own a planet and because they are the landholder it all rolls up to them. That's great. You know who else owns a planet? Everyone else who owns a planet. Not an insubstantial amount of people.

Then you also have to deal with this planet. You know whats really challenging about owning a planet? Being the Landowner of a Planet. Whats their ruling body like? How is their economy doing? What kind of stuff does the planet make? What kind of stuff does the planet need? What kind of things do the planets people want but not have?

"Well, we could buy a single super expensive item, like a dropship or a jumpship!"

It would take them 20 years to be able to buy a Scout. xD

No, not really.  Not unless the GM is ready to give you your own space transport.  Until then, there's just none available on the market.

Free Traders like their jumpships. If the thing isn't family owned or government owned then you'll have to deal with galactic megacorps.

Again, who's got a city for sale?  You could theoretically buy some noble's fief and put him into early retirement, but then you are buying yourself a whole new campaign's worth of administration challenges.

I think this for everyone who has ever 'Built a Factory'. Awesome if you want that to be your game. But lets face it. The players don't have the scrap for that... and if they did. Then they don't have the administration and bureaucracy skills for that... and if they did. Well then the Campaign starts and that's a nightmare.

[truetanker]

BLACKMAIL!

No seriously, have them a natural NPC enemy like a cousin, who just happens to have some dirty * whatever * and they promise to use it against them. 5 million a year for them to quietly not put it out? Or else? The rest could be a relief funds, give them 2 mil a year as the only cash that can be safely unaccounted for. Or the IRS is after them for embezzlement.

TT

[Khymerion]

Thank you all for the advice and the different points of view of going into this.

I definitely am looking forward now to running a heavy political game...   the problem I am going to have to come to is keeping things interesting for the techs and mech jocks.   I'll find that out this weekend when I finally pin everyone down and force them to understand their position as actually being almost important people within the inner sphere and that I need to stop being lazy and actually start writing up the mid and low level nobility within the feudal system on the planets they have and the neighboring systems and who it is who they are in service to via the rank of Grand Duke, Prime Minister, and luckily... phew...  in 3145, the books actually tell me who is in charge of the houses.

And knowing them and their ineptitude...  and they have a fantastic record of botching these things up... like cut from the cloth classic brand Liao here...  this will be fun.

But yes, thank you all for your various points of view, they will help me in my decision making in the coming days, weeks, and months leading up to what will inevitably lead to the one or both of them screaming something that will befit a demotivational poster.

[idea weenie]

And knowing them and their ineptitude...  and they have a fantastic record of botching these things up... like cut from the cloth classic brand Liao here...  this will be fun.

This could be even more fun.  Are they a senior noble from one House, with a member from another Huose in their unit?  That other House member better be personally sworn to their service, or their rivals will insinuate they are working with an enemy.

[Khymerion]

This could be even more fun.  Are they a senior noble from one House, with a member from another Huose in their unit?  That other House member better be personally sworn to their service, or their rivals will insinuate they are working with an enemy.

Well, considering that there is only a handful of ranks above Duke...  and throwing around a decent sum (with one arguing that the chart only stops there and should go higher due to the math equation for calculating property actually giving them a potential of +18 before modifiers like what and where the planet/system actually is come into it...  10 for property, 3 from rank, 5 for reputaion...  it was not a very pleasant luncheon where he quoted this to me, soured the meal)...  I think that puts them on the short list of annoying people you have to invite to royal functions...  or at least the functions in that governing region.

I think deep down, one of them wants to be the next Jacob Bannson while the other just wants to have his personal little empire he can leer out of at people paranoid like from his mobile fortress while bribing/kidnapping anyone who actually passed a science or engineering course.    Okay...  talked to much, sorry.   This is getting way too unprofessional.

[solmanian]

Instead of the lannisters, treat them like the starks. Make it an adventure, the plot of MW4:vengence comes to mind.

[Kitsune413]

Yeah but those mechwarriors and techs need payed and it sounds like you know a pair of pc"s with money.

Bodyguards, drivers, or just an entourage. Take them to solaris or galatea. Take them to the tables.

[Dave Talley]

now its your game, you get to pick what thier holdings
actually are

it could be that they are from rival families, or that thier home planet was just taken by the clans/kurita/whoever

now the money they have is all thats left, they will
have to use it to liberate thier home,or they can simply retire to Solaris

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

What does Irian Weapons think of these clantech factories?

  Not a factor -They are not in direct competition for market share.

What do the Clans think of these clan tech factories?

  Nobody cares, not even the Clans. They don't even bother with the Wolves in Exile.

Where did they get the raw materials. Who is in charge? Whats their administration skill. Do conniving people on their board of directors ever try to cut them out?

  I ran the numbers -It will take over a decade for the factories to break even. The players appointed CEOs and functionaries to manage their businesses so they are like Victor Steiner Davions -Absentee landlords who have no clue where every C-Bill is going and millions are skimmed off from the profits. They really don't care to micromanage their holdings and I don't force them. The players haven't a clue on the rampant corruption they rule over. The same happened when King Richard Lionheart went off to play in the Crusades and left his brother John to run the show. The truth is, Richard was an idiot and Prince John saved England from bankruptcy -The Crusades and King Richard's ransom (he was seized by the Germans) nearly broke England. John kept it all running and the taxes collected. He even signed the Magna Carta.

  The regiment they play in was a dysfunctional rabble -Only the god-like abilities of a handful of players would pull the unit through. In one campaign, several of the officers got into a shouting match that ended in a brawl that wound up shown on the BT universe's version of YouTube.
 One officer, who never bothered to familiarize himself with the units' infantry assets, actually welcomed two companies' worth of insurgent infiltrators into the unit, where the insurgents proceeded to kidnap officers and men and stole vehicles out from under their noses...and there was much hilarity...

  I even documented the unit in fanfic form but for mature readers; Much of it based on my own experiences in the military....
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/9937852/1/AoD

[RMDC]

I think idea weenie said it best. At the ducal level, it's less about "how do I control these players" and more about "how are these characters going to get more control". In fact, reading that post gave me inspiration for my upcoming ATOW game...

[Lorcan Nagle]

There's actually some decent advice on this front in the GM's section of AtoW.  If the characters are rich and powerful, then they have obligations and duties.  Their lord may ask them to go off on a mission (which requires their bodyguards and retainers to come along, of course), they'll have to watch out for all their family members who are lower on the inheritance chain as well as criminals and members of other houses (and other nations) too.

[Orion]

Not run into this in Battletech, but have in fantasy and superhero games.  Personally, I've ran into issues like this so often that I require a pre-game meeting before any character is made.  This meeting is all about deciding the genre, tone, direction, etc. of the campaign.  Stuff like how well should the characters get along, are they designed in secret, or to maximize the usefulness of the group, long-term friends vs new unit thrown together, etc.

The first thing I'd ask the players is if they are wanting to play nobles, with all the economics, politics, and non-combat stuff it brings up, or they simply want to be a stinking rich mechwarrior with a noble title.  If they really want to play nobles, then ask the other players if guarding the nobles is an okay game.  Chances are, it won't be agreeable to all.  At this point, you have everyone decide what kind of game they do want to play, and then someone makes a new character.

I think a great traditional game could be made in which one noble is the black sheep of his family.  Sure he's stinking rich, but few other nobles will speak to him, he's not allow to go home, and he survives on an allowance the family sends out as long as he doesn't screw up too badly.  The second noble is a merc pilot because it was expected of him, not because he's that interested in doing the job.  Make one of them the commander of the unit because of his money, but another character is the one really running it because he is the one with the experience and/or knowledge.  To maximize roleplaying opportunities, make sure they have different ideas on how things should be done, and what direction the unit should take.

[E. Icaza]

So they're rich.  That just comes with a whole new set of problems.  It's your job to make those problems happen.   >:D

"They've got 99 problems, but C-Bills ain't one of them."

[Maelwys]

Of course, when there are two of them and their problems are so big, its easy to lose focus on the rest of the group. Maybe the other players don't WANT to be the noble's bodyguards, or are tired of having everything about the noble and/or coming up against yet another problem caused by the noble.

I think its going to be a pretty tricky balancing act.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

I think its going to be a pretty tricky balancing act.

  I make that a problem for the players to work out among themselves...and enjoy the ensuing hilarity.

[scJazz]

So they're rich.  That just comes with a whole new set of problems.  It's your job to make those problems happen.   >:D

"They've got 99 problems, but C-Bills ain't one of them."

Yeah... this points back to my earlier post about getting totally medieval on them.

The earnings should be taken as an Average amount of Investment income which is normally paid out quarterly. The Rules do not give any clarity about what should happen with those earnings. Is it just the straight Average of everything left over, the total net income? There are many things that could lower net...

1 ) Incompetent Investment Advisor
2 ) Bad Market
3 ) Huge Natural disasters (Hurricane, Earthquake, Asteroid Impact, Pestilence, etc)
4 ) Inflation
5 ) Deflation
6 ) War
7 ) Small Natural disasters (drought, tornadoes, pestilence, etc)
8 ) Industrial disasters (Hydro-Electric Dam breaking, pollution, Power Plant offline, not enough shipments of XXX, etc.)
9 ) Ad Nauseum

A happy medium can be found... heck... in many ways it could add to the Storyline and increase player fun!

[idea weenie]

The earnings should be taken as an Average amount of Investment income which is normally paid out quarterly. The Rules do not give any clarity about what should happen with those earnings. Is it just the straight Average of everything left over, the total net income? There are many things that could lower net...

6 ) War

A small scale war, because the pirates hear the Duke(s) is away, so they decide to play.  Since the Duke is busy spending time as a mercenary, he is not there to provide morale bonuses or better bonuses to the local militia.  As a result the locals take more damage, and more loot is stolen.  This damage and loot have to be repaid, so it comes out of the Duke's pocket.

You could have a rules where the higher the Noble title, the more time has to be spent at their home, keeping things going well.  A Baron can pop off, because his superiors can handle a single Baron being gone easily (the Count's assistant accountant can do a good job).  A Duke away from the planet means the direct representative of the Successor Lord is gone, and there are a lot of people who want that title.

That could be an adjustment for the rules.  If you have a noble title and are being a merc, you are not in the line of succession.  You are one of the secondary children who will not inherit the title, and have to find another way to make your money/fortune.

[scJazz]

A small scale war, because the pirates hear the Duke(s) is away, so they decide to play.  Since the Duke is busy spending time as a mercenary, he is not there to provide morale bonuses or better bonuses to the local militia.  As a result the locals take more damage, and more loot is stolen.  This damage and loot have to be repaid, so it comes out of the Duke's pocket.

You could have a rules where the higher the Noble title, the more time has to be spent at their home, keeping things going well.  A Baron can pop off, because his superiors can handle a single Baron being gone easily (the Count's assistant accountant can do a good job).  A Duke away from the planet means the direct representative of the Successor Lord is gone, and there are a lot of people who want that title.

That could be an adjustment for the rules.  If you have a noble title and are being a merc, you are not in the line of succession.  You are one of the secondary children who will not inherit the title, and have to find another way to make your money/fortune.

+1 interwebz

It doesn't even have to be a war as suggested but... if you are not on planet, managing your investments closely, the will suffer.

If I wasn't busy doing other things I might create a random modifying table.

Anyone with Investment Management want to take a quick stab?

1 ) Observant Investor
2 ) Skilled (Not skilled Investment manager, heck even corrupt which brings on whole new set of wierd)
3 ) Market Nature (Bear vs Bull)
4 ) Acts of God
5 ) Market Saturation
6 ) Inflation/Deflation
7 ) etc

[Khymerion]

Alright, some insight into the players who are behind the problem, perhaps this will help out some.

The two who made nobles are very much the stay at home, micro-manage type.  Galavanting about the galaxy is not something they are too keen on unless there is an express need... like Blakists needing to be killed or a super conspiracy to uncover... or they are ordered to by directive from their lord above.   If they do move, it will be expressly to aquire new holdings or to strike at a foe.

These two who are wanting to be nobles distrust each other across all the various characters they have ever made in the 10+ years I have run for them but they always will band together against an external threat.  Only if one of them goes off the deep end of stupid will they slit the other's throat or there is no other threat but the other one.   But since the BT universe is chalk full of threats, getting them to stab the other will be hard.

The thing is...  the Alpha noble is a manipulator to say the very least.  This guys has been gifted with a silver tongue and the skills to make up a character to back it up when you call their bluff with a dice roll.    So trying to paint him as an incompetent will be hard because he is at home in the courts.   He has a near KGB attitude towards problems, believes in spies and black ops, and has no problems black bagging people and sealing them away in dungeons for the rest of time or lighting a village on fire if it means the problem is solved.   If given the chance, he will implement the Gestapo, with their brutality and short of an outside power invading, little chance for redemption for the populace.

Yes, I can always run a popular revolve against him but this is a guy who via points is the defacto ruler of the planet or a similarly large body worthy of rank and property.   And we know how feudal systems work and how hands off most nobles are in universe.

Beta Noble.   An industrialist to say the very least.   While the other is a silver tongued demagogue with a dark side worthy of Grand Moff Tarkin, this one is a technocrat.   An efficiency expert who tends to over analyze the situation.   Prone to big purchases but only if those purchases have a very definable net-return or significant increase in capabilities.   So if I try to con him out money, he is going to want to make sure it has gone through all it's paces beforehand.   Prone to fits of paranoia and over-reacting when things start to go wrong.   Holds off on violence till there is little other option, preferring a defensive stance, ready to counter until pushed and then tends to push towards reducing the enemy that he has now deemed to be unreasonable to nothing more than dust under his boot, followers and anyone else who even bothers to resist post pushed to far being nothing more than bodies in a charnel house.   Willing to accept anyone who willing surrenders but don't shoot at him and then think you can beg for mercy after the fighting is over.   I know, I watched him do this trick on multiple occasions, mercilessly hunting a foe and all their followers down to the last little nock and cranny.

His paranoia is enough that in a world of giant battlemechs that can cloak, he half jokingly said that he would only ride around his planet in a super-heavy battletank to ensure his safety outside his estates.   The fact that I am not sure that he was really joking is the bad part because he showed up with the stats for the thing the next day... with price tag.

The rest of the group...  they are mostly the follower type.   They make good characters but tend to lack initiative and if the primary two say jump, they tend to do so... it is only if the two primaries come to a head in terms of what to do will the others have to really step in.

Hope that helps.

[Dave Talley]

oooh

thats a pain, start over, 3025 perifery limit points so that nobody is better than a knight and dont
allow wealth as a starting ability, and get one of the followers some rank

make him the CO, granted in this case he is simply a CO of a demicompany of marginally functional mechs,
if they end up wealthy its because they earned it

[Khymerion]

Sounds like a plan.   Tomorrow (sunday) will be if I can get that suggestion to take hold.

[Dave Talley]

either that or conscript thier unit for active duty,  they are nobles, they are in the military, send to whoknowswhere and while off planet have a scandal of some sort, the govt sends
in a caretaker govt and they are completely cut off from any on world money/assets

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

The thing is...  the Alpha noble is a manipulator to say the very least. 

  Which House? This guy would be left alone in the Draconis Combine or Capellan Confederation. Steiner and Davion do not tolerate the abuse of their citizens, hence when one of my players executed Lyran rebels, Melissa Steiner personally ordered him to surrender all of his landholdings in compensation. Lyran citizens, even rebels, have rights.

Beta Noble.   An industrialist to say the very least.

  Business and trade are voluntary social exchanges. Resorting to violence establishes the kind of negative reputation that is difficult to mitigate. No amount of PR front could erase facts -They may mollify the sheep but other industrialists aren't sheep.
  Overcautious practices and paranoia means heavy investment in security and redundancy which raises overhead. Maximizing profits entails risk as well as trust. A player that tries to stack the deck may find one or more competitors joining forces to stack the deck in their favor. An example would be the Microsoft antitrust lawsuit.

  What would make things interesting is a third party instigating a conflict between the two nobles, perhaps two diametrically opposed political factions that would call upon them to wage a shadow war against each other.
  In my campaign, which is in 3055, the noble players are being approached by Katherine supporters to recruit them. Most of them have no respect for Victor.
 

 

[Kitsune413]

I think you are worrying a bit to much about it. Or at least, it sounds like these people are going to rule in a vacuum.

The thing about these nobles is that they arent that powerful and they arent that rich. Sure they could buy 6 3025 locusts in a year. But a year is alot of time and half company of locusts arent that useful. They also have to be able to buy their crap mechs. Which they probably cant.

If they want to commit atrocities thats cool. I hope the ruling house doesnt find out and their people dont hang them by their shoes.

The most important part of gming is that everyone has fun.

But they dont have to always get their way for them to have fun and if their fun isnt fun for you things are still going bad.

What kind of story do you want to tell? Lets figure out how we can fit their characters into your narrative.

[Kitsune413]

Also one suggestion for funsies. Ask them both to take the "heir" trait and make them rulers to be of the same world. Tell them it will centralize their campaign.

[idea weenie]

These two who are wanting to be nobles distrust each other across all the various characters they have ever made in the 10+ years I have run for them but they always will band together against an external threat.  Only if one of them goes off the deep end of stupid will they slit the other's throat or there is no other threat but the other one.   But since the BT universe is chalk full of threats, getting them to stab the other will be hard.

The thing is...  the Alpha noble is a manipulator to say the very least.  This guys has been gifted with a silver tongue and the skills to make up a character to back it up when you call their bluff with a dice roll.    So trying to paint him as an incompetent will be hard because he is at home in the courts.   He has a near KGB attitude towards problems, believes in spies and black ops, and has no problems black bagging people and sealing them away in dungeons for the rest of time or lighting a village on fire if it means the problem is solved.   If given the chance, he will implement the Gestapo, with their brutality and short of an outside power invading, little chance for redemption for the populace.

Beta Noble.   An industrialist to say the very least.   While the other is a silver tongued demagogue with a dark side worthy of Grand Moff Tarkin, this one is a technocrat.   An efficiency expert who tends to over analyze the situation.   Prone to big purchases but only if those purchases have a very definable net-return or significant increase in capabilities.   So if I try to con him out money, he is going to want to make sure it has gone through all it's paces beforehand.   Prone to fits of paranoia and over-reacting when things start to go wrong.   Holds off on violence till there is little other option, preferring a defensive stance, ready to counter until pushed and then tends to push towards reducing the enemy that he has now deemed to be unreasonable to nothing more than dust under his boot, followers and anyone else who even bothers to resist post pushed to far being nothing more than bodies in a charnel house.   Willing to accept anyone who willing surrenders but don't shoot at him and then think you can beg for mercy after the fighting is over.   I know, I watched him do this trick on multiple occasions, mercilessly hunting a foe and all their followers down to the last little nock and cranny.

His paranoia is enough that in a world of giant battlemechs that can cloak, he half jokingly said that he would only ride around his planet in a super-heavy battletank to ensure his safety outside his estates.   The fact that I am not sure that he was really joking is the bad part because he showed up with the stats for the thing the next day... with price tag.

Turn them against each other.  A third NPC who plays on the fears of both.  They launch orbital spy satellites against Noble #1, and send spies against #2.  To go against #1, have someone point out that he is not improving his holdings, and might soon be reduced in scope if he doesn't make things better, like #2 is doing.  #2 is told there have been expandable spies caught, but the mastermind is still out there.

Make the two players paranoid of one another, and watch them tear each other apart.  After they have sufficiently torn each other's holdings down, the third NPC can come to the front.  Then watch their expression as they realize their own fears were the cause.

[Col Toda]

For ATOW no .  A good mech costs more than 13 - 20 + million C-bills each . Even with high trait resources you may be able to buy a good mech once a year from your own resources but you have to have to be very successful to afford owning a jump ship and drop ship of your own .  The price of those are astronomical and no way can a merc company that does not have title to a highly populated and industrial planet can come close to fielding a war ship the crewing and overhead is insane . Having the money without having the access or connections to get what you need . In ATOW if you do not have the right vehicle ; custom ; or equipment trait you cannot get it as personal property .  You can get issued equipment above your trait but it is not yours it is the unit's . Weight Class of vehicle is treated as what weight class you can drive without penalty.

[Khymerion]

That makes a lot of sense.   With the way things are a bit nebulous at times, it always seems to be an oddity... like the artificial gates on certain things when there are easy ways to get them within the parameters given by the rules.   This has been a very educational experience.

And group update:  Using the information you all have helped provide me, straightening out a few errors and confusions to which I again say thank you, I did manage to convince one of the two, namely the KGB wanna-be, to step back from being a noble...  and the session went smoothly with only one.   It launched them into trying to unlock the 125 million a year threshold (which is where the original paranoia circled around) but at least it gave them a goal.   Again, thank you all for your advice... it was taken into consideration and utilized.

[Snimm]

I would like to add to this discussion.

After you mentioned how "alpha and beta" your two would-be nobles tend to be, and always have been over your group's years of gaming, I would make it a point to make story arcs that every once in a while focus instead on one of the "follower" players' characters.  Force that player to take a lead role in making decisions (because his character is in that moment).

Especially, make it a point that the focused player is the one to make the decisions that most affect his character - heck, maybe your alpha males, for whatever storyline reason, are not there at that moment in time to have any influence over the focused player's decisions.  If you have to, send the absent PCs' players out of the room so only those players who are present in the story moment can influence the decision.

Of course, this kind of plot mechanic needs to be used wisely, as you don't want to alienate anybody.  But the point is not that you're trying to exclude anybody; you just want to ensure that your other players, once in a while, are the focus of the action.

[Minerva]

In my game all characters are Lyran nobles. At this level money doesn't count at all and it is all about connections.

Game functions on two levels.

First, they serve in a LCAF military unit which means that they are hauled where ever GM wants them to go. They are also all officers (one of them de facto BN XO and others as company commanders) so they have responsibilities such as dealing with local nobles and officials and fixing possible crises in HQ and behind battlefield. The battle planning is role played so nobles with best social status and most influence naturally determine where to go. However, there are also tons of problems in overall missions.

Problems so far dealt with include dealing with local regent who works for both sides, smuggling guns to local guerrillas while actually occupying the same city, helping Liao factory owner to reach his quota to gain favours, planning to entertain 13-year old noble girls,  negotiating with Kurita officers over fate of Kurita's blood relative, trying to avoid diplomatic incidents with Davion officers, dealing with Comstar intermediates during peace negotiations, planning commando raids and surviving numerous Supreme Command Inspectors and inquiries...

Second, they are also working for their own families. Naturally characters have plenty of weapons to do this. Essentially all have connections and are somehow aligned to deal with these issues.
Sari's mother is mistress of Frederick Steiner and Sari is mistress of Ceasar Steiner. This means that mother/daughter combo knows what both Archon Katrina and plotting Frederick are doing. They share this into within their family to align themselves for almost certain civil war to come. Her position is sealed with favours she does to earn and keep her position:
-She has helped Ceasar to gain his composure (well hidden fact that Ceasar -like all Steiners- suffers from occasional bouts of deep depression) which was caused by Aldo Lestrade's plot.
-She has also kept Ceasar's annoyingly observant relative -young girl who reports EVERYTHING- happy while he has been busy playing soldier.
For this she has also gained much:
-She has gained Ceasar's aid to crush a uppity Davion officer who war really rude (humiliation by duel).
-She heard details of Ardan Sortek being somehow important to Archon Katrina (while everyone else thought he was Melissa's pet kitten or something) and deducted increase in interstellar shipping (as Steiner and Davion families are becoming closer).
-She knows road to Melissa's good mood is some nobody noble girl Auburn. She used this to make her family come closer to Archon's favour.

And so on....

At level of being a noble the game is simply different. You are a operator who tries to increase your family's fortunes and uncover plots and use them to your own advantage.
 


 

[StCptMara]

Two powerful nobles, with equal holdings? Remember, though, this is a FEUDAL game. That means that they
have people under them, and, since they only control a MERE planet, they have  the equivalent of March Lords,
Theater Commanders, etc over them. They have to keep both those above and below them happy. They keep
those above them happy by fulfilling their duties. They keep those below them happy by...giving them things to
make their lives better. How are they doing that? If they give nothing to their lowers, then..how long before those
lessers begin talking about doing something about them? And, of course, sure, they be paranoid, and have all
the complex secret police they want...the House's are better! And it KNOWS what they are doing. Does anything
they do make them look TOO ambitious? Like, maybe, they might be looking to move up the chain of nobility, and
might not have too many scruples about HOW they get up there?

Of course, as others have said, the era is important, as well. But, frankly, I think these guys have said the
kind of game they want. They want to play the political game. The worst thing about the political game is when
it is played by amateurs. And that is how the politicians around them will think..these guys want to play with
the big boys? Then the big boys will test them...and, frankly, they don't play nice in ANY House. Steiner will destroy
your prestige and name, Davion will destroy your reputation and your respect among the military. Marik will
get your people to revolt against you. Kurita will get you painted an enemy of the Coordinator. The Confederation
will get YOU black-bagged quietly, and someone new in your place and no-one will ever mention your name(if you
are LUCKY).

[Khymerion]

Alright.   I have taken those comments down for notes though I believe I have shorted them in my descriptions.  Frustration at the time painted a poor picture of them.  One would see them only as short sighted monsters.  That is as far from the truth as one can get.   I painted with a broad brush to get the most basic of pictures of their problem characteristics illustrated.   My fault.   Now, several weeks and sessions have gone by and I can attest to one thing.

They are evil.   Not like megalomaniacal evil but Underwood/House of Cards evil.   Alpha noble player has blissfully stepped into the shows of the party intel officer/propaganda minister for Beta noble.   Beta noble is playing the long game, all smiles and niceties while to the surprise of the party, one of the party's passive players has stepped up to the role of bodyguard with a terrifying quality.   He is working hand in hand with former Noble Alpha and making a very smooth apparatus on planet.   Another is taking a bit of initiative and using his connections with Beta noble and his interests and actually started to branch out towards the industrial side of things, setting himself up for the planetary minister of industry once some more XP has been handed out to pad out his skills and finishes his term in the military.   That leaves only two who are really not getting in on the game but they are there just to really crack hands, in or out of a battlemech so as long as one of the other now four give them direction on who to punch, they are content to watch the game.

So in essence, using the information that they were not going to have 125m a year in personal spending cash, armed with the information of who within the Federated Suns is above them...  btw, the party nearly came to blows over which house they were going to serve but finally settled on House Davion in 3140 because... to quote the newly re-minted intel officer in his ...  They are a rotten house just needing to be kicked over with an addled leadership.   

So by depriving them of the much feared 125 million a year in personal spending, I inadvertently set them on a course where they will be trying to get that much desired goal and more.

This is not the first political game I have run over the decades so I am not in over my head here.   This game is unfortunately showing a very major problem of... well...  how to put this...   the RPG is garbage and very sketchy the moment you take the game away from a heavy military focus.   I gave them all the freedom to build what ever they want and they went in the exact opposite direction of traditional Battletech.

It also points out the very painful fact that there is literally NOTHING for running high level play.   My players do not accept the stock line that their planet of several hundred million people is barely able to do anything.   They make requests like 'How much do we actually make in taxes per month?  Per year?   What is our budget?   The trait says the money we get per year is PERSONAL income... not national income...  so how much are we paying to our lords in taxes?   How much do we have to work with for infrastructure and developement?   How much are we making off our lower nobles?  How do we determine their loyalty levels and improve our standings?   How many landed nobles do we have on planet?   How is the break up of the politics on world?   How hard would it be to nationalize?   Can this be made any more efficient?   We have a planetary network of communications right?   What major corporate interests are on world?  What are they wanting?   What is not being utilized?   How much will it cost to utilize those resources?  How corrupt is my planet in terms of black market dealings and smuggling?'

You know... all the things that a merc focused or house military focused game tend to gloss over.   most of those are RP problems...  no worries...  but having NO guideline to work with from official sources to fill in the holes...  except for sporadic descriptions and the dreaded specter of FASA-nomics.    It is a train wreck of an engine that was not built around supporting a dedicated non-combat focus.

Oh, and incase someone drops the 'just have an invasion land on their heads' idea...  they are already planning for that.   That is what half their questions revolve around... trying to prepare for and stop invasions.   Because they will not accept a passive population nor suffer incompetence as the party noble, our most wonderful Duke, has already sacked a landed Baron for not properly maintaining the roads and transport lines in the city that the Baron was in control of as an example to others that the old guard lazy attitude of the status quo will not be tolerated while the intel officer was busy rooting out who might have ties and sympathies with said Baron to tie up loose ends/quietly silence them/feel out loyalties of NPCs and members of the planetary nobility.  The Duke promoted a Baronet underneath up into the former Baron's position, complete with lands and titles with the expectations that the roads, rails, and airfields will be up to standard within the year.    For a first test, they are going into this with brutal but silk gloved efficiency.

So that is the update of the game.   Me... getting more grey hairs because there is no system for running planetary and higher level games.  Them... laying the foundations for scheming to get 125 million in cash per year at the very least, to earn noble titles for those players who don't have them to cement control of the planet in an iron but reasonable grip, and then build a base to begin aiming higher.   Because the party is not satisfied with the noble player being merely a Duke....  they can't ride those coat tails higher if he isn't higher ranked.

[Dave Talley]

You are in the unenviable position of having to write and populate a whole different
level of play than 99% of games ever get to

Keep good notes, maybe a fan sourcebook is coming when you are done

[StCptMara]

I would tell them: You do not need to know the taxes, etc. That goes to supporting your demesne. That
amount that you get as personal income is what is left after all obligations are covered.

[Kitsune413]

Man. Talk about a missed opportunity.

They chose the federated suns and you didnt plant them in the outback?  ;D

Anyways talk to us about it. What worlds have they got? Are they suffering from the cc and dc invasions? Because they should be. They should be seeing limited transportation as the fedsuns government pulls to deal with the invasions.

If you are worried about how much money they make depress their economy. Fedsuns strips jumpships for a war effort that also strips some import they rely on. With a lack of supply and a surplus of demand they will simply fall behind.

Maybe that planet has a great debt or a defecit.

What story are you trying to tell? What would you like to know about high level planets. I would like to help.

[Khymerion]

Ah, but that would almost be a cop out.   They want to actually be rulers and not just be lazy about it.   In the past, some hand waving works but if presented by a threat...  especially creditable threats like interplanetary invasions, noble uprisings, peasant uprisings, and their ilk... they don't want to be passive about it and wait for it's arrival.   Sure, they don't want to handle the day to day minutiae but major things like what is their planetary defense budget... namely because one can't be expected to uphold a noble's role in both being the ruler of the world and still be able to uphold their duties to the Arch Duke above them.

Trying to work out the economics of how they can fulfill their requirement to provide taxes and troops to fulfill their obligations to their higher ups, they have been trying to pull back the panels to figure out how to produce better quality troops, to create a motivated population, to do more than just hand wave and accept the status quo like those who came before them.   They are trying to build power bases, instill loyalties that extend more than just an oath of service, and become more than just a meager little moon or world, another dusty blip on the map.

They recognized that without information like this, to back up their titles, they are just another noble who will get knocked off or who will flee off world to their arch duke the moment someone else comes in to knock over their castle and plant a flag... like so many other no name no one cares about nobles.   Giving them a canned 'this is your allowance' answer and then not letting them actually use the power of their title and property with the other players operating from the point of view of being their general staff/trusted minions is kind of letting a chance slip by.

And from previous kingdom and empire building games, the group is not too keen on raiding the national treasury too often unless it is a major project that will ultimately improve the kingdom and rarely if ever for personal gain.   So we won't be seeing an overly greedy, corrupt noble in charge here.   More like spartan and utilitarian as the party has already told the player who was frivolous and silly with his spending as a ruler in a previous game that he can't be in charge of any finances (he build a plethora marble and granite statues of himself and put them on every street corner so they would know who he is... party won't let that happen again.).

Kinda odd feeling to try to be shoe horning some kind of major engine like this into a game that has so often almost shrieked in terror away from this kind of examination... hiding being decrepit FASAnomics and other forms of fiat.   Then again, it is the accountant in me that demands systems that can be analyzed, dissected, and laid bare for examination... where GM fiat is tantamount to being borderline unforgivable and a criminal offense as GMs and Players should be using the same handbook.   If the GM can do it, so should the players and the steps to reach that conclusion should be reproducible if similar conditions are met.  In essence, if I can't give a proper explanation when called on some GM BS, I have no right to do it.


Now Kitsune413,

The world in question they have is Killarney.   Chosen because it is a completely nondescript world from what I could put together... so a blank slate.   It is coreward to the Fed Suns and still towards the outback but not close enough to the fronts for immediate threat of invasion from the CC and DC though the threat looms as the Duke's mother and her body guard were called up (player's choice of parent) for service (location not yet determined) and ended up like so many others... a nice red splatter on the wall... thus why a brat in his 20's is a noble of the rank of Duke (yay hereditary rules).

As the disasters of the invasion of 3143 and 3144 have not yet happened (yay for managing to keep some books out of the hands of players), that ball has not dropped yet though they can feel it... thus why the desire to actually rebuild/build up the planet.   They recognize the weaknesses within the Federated Suns, that their leaders are less than stellar...  they dream of the days of Hans and Victor... before the failures of the modern days.

The story I was hoping to tell was one of nobles leading their people against terrible odds...  to what ever end that they earn... though this has been hijacked and corrupted towards more of a Game of Thrones/House of Cards style manipulation/power gain or a rise of the state style agenda.

They realize that their ability to have interstellar traffic is going to be limited, the rumblings of war drums means that they are going to need to become self sufficient and able to support themselves.   They know of the ravages of the Jihad and wish to be able to weather that storm if it was to come again, in what ever form it takes.   They know that a single world with 'only' a half billion to billion people (as we have not been able to pin down a population) can do a good deal and there is room to grow and expand and utilize.   Since half the group are veteran 4X/Grand Strategy players... giving them an blank pallet to work only leads to crazy plans.

They are mostly asking all these questions because they are actually waiting for the other boot to drop.   They know something is going to go wrong, it always does, and they need information like this so they can try to pre-emptively mitigate the damages that are going to come when the inevitable war/withdrawing of troops and material happens.   They are needing to know how much they have to give and what rate of production of material they will be able to do.

BTW:  Here is the point play out for the world they got... as per what they spent.
Rank: Duke - +3 pts towards property
Reputation:  Well known across Fed Suns - +3 (Charismatic darling)
Property:  10 pts...  for a total of 16 pts towards his holding (where this whole problem originated).

So it was spent as follows:
10 pts for the moon/world
+1 for Water Rich
+1 for Agricultural
+2 for Heavy Industrial
Two points for who knows what...  they are just bonus I guess when playing with only 14 out of the 16 he has got.  I mean, I could move the world to a national border (-1) and still have him sitting at 15.   Where the world is now, I could actually hit him with a political scandal, Major and still have him riding high at 14.   He is literally insulated due to rules that to actually hit his personal coin purse/yearly personal stipend that I would need to unleash A) A major natural disaster + a major political scandal that he was actually part as that would lower his property score to a mere 8  or B) Conquer his planet and he still sits a comfy 10... and if he actually suits up to help defend before the planet is lost instead of just running in fear... he is still at a 13.

Yeah.   Gaming the system to ensure that his yearly spending cash will ALWAYS be there and why there almost needs to be an extension of the chart to get it higher than a mere 11.

[Kitsune413]

Well I think you have two major decisions to make right now,

First of all is killarny the planet you want them to be on? You dont have to compromise your vision of the game just because they want to have a game of thrones. Even if they are some scumbag nobles. You should decide quickly if you want the challenges they face to be an external threat (dc or cc) or something else.

Second and more important is that you need to flesh out your major character and that is this planet they are on.

Heavy industrial? Awesome. Thats a character, or a group of characters. The noble may own the planet. But this is the federated suns. Those businesses have leaders. Those leaders can be antagonists.

The characters 'own' the planet. They do not own people and corporations have an annoying tendency to 'be people'

What about the agriculture? Who owns these farms? What are they after?

What about the water? Is it purified by star league equipment? How is that equipment doing. That can be an antagonist.

Stop being worried about the money they make. Hell give them more money. Have the corporations try to buy them. Itdoesnt matter. The federated suns desperately needs mechs. So at best your nobles are going to spend crazy sums of money so that they can strap machine guns to agromechs.

The amount of money is no big deal unless you let it be an issue. Sure they can buy a lance of locusts. But that is an adventure. They have to find someone black market to get them to them. Black market locusts cost more money.

They are also piloted by dudes who arent the pcs. So if your guys are super crafty devious guys what about super crafty devious people working behind the scenes to expose them?

Your npc antagonists can be good guy hackers.

ITs important that your players have fun. But they can only get as much influence and power as you let them have. If thats what will make them have fun, then awesome, but if they are after power and influence make that the adventure.Make them earn it...

And tell the story you want to tell.

If the players arent going to do it then create some good guy nobles who are trying to do the right thing and overcome the troubles with the people. Sure your pc nobles will have to try to kill them and backstab them. But those nobles could perservere without killing the pcs. It can be a reverse adventure.

It could be crazy fun.

[Kitsune413]

Another fun antagonist would be a good guy militia leader who jsu naturally sees through them and doesnt trust them.

Either let him hang and be an antagonist or have them support an evil militia captain to usurp him have a coup. Then after evil mcbaddy takes over have him be uncontrollable and possibly willing to try to take them down.

Juat remember, even if they can buy a million rifles they dont actually own the people they are going to equip them with.

[Kitsune413]

You should also look into Jacob Banson as a case study. He was one of the richest people in the inner sphere. Far, far richer than your pc is ever likely to be. He also had aspirations on a system, rather than global scale.

One of the interesting things about banson is the amount of money he has and how much that amount of money did not help him build a mech.

He got a single chassis off the ground with l of his wealth and it was not a stellar example of mech technology.

Anybody remember its name? Been listed here before.

[Khymerion]

Well I think you have two major decisions to make right now,

First of all is killarny the planet you want them to be on? You dont have to compromise your vision of the game just because they want to have a game of thrones. Even if they are some scumbag nobles. You should decide quickly if you want the challenges they face to be an external threat (dc or cc) or something else.

Second and more important is that you need to flesh out your major character and that is this planet they are on.

Well, the planet itself is rapidly becoming a character in it's own right.   Since the players would like to stay focused on their homeland instead of galavanting around all creation... the focus initially will be there till which point that I do decide that they have annoyed/stepped on enough toes to warrant a proper retribution.

Threats I am developing currently are a mix of domestic (old guard loyalists to the noble's parents/status quo), corporate (not everyone operating on planet is going to like the talks of nationalization), and external (the inevitable spies from abroad/higher ups).   In addition, a former player who can not make it to the games in person has volunteered to 'run' the Grand Duke that is above them...  another Machiavellian individual from olden days that I play a different game with so there is some work there.   This is a wild card character who may or may not be a friend or foe but the fact that he is doing this is being kept away from the players so they think it is all my planning (yay for knowing none of them come to this board).

Heavy industrial? Awesome. Thats a character, or a group of characters. The noble may own the planet. But this is the federated suns. Those businesses have leaders. Those leaders can be antagonists.

Already working on this to a degree.   There is a good mix of domestic companies that operate only on planet (IE:  Not the AAA interstellar megacorps) that are the current antagonists for the party at their level.   As I have not nailed down yet what major interstellar corps might be on world (it is hard to pick), the players have been patient in giving me time to develop this major challenge that lays before them but knowing how the player who is playing the noble has acted in the past, he will try to collaborate as much as possible...  think Rheinmetall or Krupp kind of deals.   Hasn't gotten the courage yet (lacking the powerful enough base) to offer such a deal but it will come inevitably... once the local corporations have been brought into line... depending how the RP sessions play out.

The characters 'own' the planet. They do not own people and corporations have an annoying tendency to 'be people'

What about the agriculture? Who owns these farms? What are they after?

Working on that slowly...  trying to map out the nobility that branches down to the lords who rule over the farming communities and how much feudalistic I want to keep it currently.  Since a few of the players are farming families IRL before moving on to different careers, they do have a some experience on how major large scale farming is done.   So this is being worked on and has come up as a concern of certain players.

What about the water? Is it purified by star league equipment? How is that equipment doing. That can be an antagonist.

Aquifers and minor purification of trace minerals for farming and smaller town and city needs.   Some star league level equipment needed to support the 'major' coastal cities to meet demands but it is moderately good repair.   This was immediately identified as a concern by the players... thus some questions determining towards how difficult to maintain and supplement with locally produced.  Costs are difficult to pin down for this level of equipment.

Stop being worried about the money they make. Hell give them more money. Have the corporations try to buy them. Itdoesnt matter. The federated suns desperately needs mechs. So at best your nobles are going to spend crazy sums of money so that they can strap machine guns to agromechs.

You are right, I should stop worrying...  it is kind of looking at a much bigger... problem is not the right word...  puzzle or project... and picking at the closest, most obvious part of it.

The amount of money is no big deal unless you let it be an issue. Sure they can buy a lance of locusts. But that is an adventure. They have to find someone black market to get them to them. Black market locusts cost more money.

They are also piloted by dudes who arent the pcs. So if your guys are super crafty devious guys what about super crafty devious people working behind the scenes to expose them?

Your npc antagonists can be good guy hackers.

I am perfectly sure that they are going to make a good share of their own enemies.   Things are just getting started to be honest.   They will inevitably create a few and they already have to some degree.   And a good hacker is always a good antagonist.

Now, as for the buy a billion rifles comment...  that is another reason they are asking me a ton of questions...  because they want to engender a sense of loyalty and pride in the population...  to make them motivated so that they can actually have a motivated populace to draw upon for recruits.   They know they can't get original flavor ComStar level of dedications... not from the Federated Suns... but they want better than a malaise attitude from the general populace.   This... I can play with...  because fanatics will always grow and with a good knowledge of history of how a certain other organization like what they have...

ITs important that your players have fun. But they can only get as much influence and power as you let them have. If thats what will make them have fun, then awesome, but if they are after power and influence make that the adventure.Make them earn it...

And tell the story you want to tell.

I am willing to give them the power they want... if they actually are able to proper earn it.

If the players arent going to do it then create some good guy nobles who are trying to do the right thing and overcome the troubles with the people. Sure your pc nobles will have to try to kill them and backstab them. But those nobles could perservere without killing the pcs. It can be a reverse adventure.

It could be crazy fun.

Oh trust me, in other campaigns... they actually have the problem of always feeling terrible about trying to deal with 'good people' because in their dealings... an honest person is so rare that they hate to kill them till they are forced to.   That really is a wonderful too.  They have no problem ever dealing with other corrupt people, other evil characters... they can relate to them and understand...  'noble' people are often so different and frustrating.  They love having them as supporters but rarely are able to understand them.   They are my favorite NPCs to create and play honestly.

But I will have to say, thank you for asking me these questions here...  it lets me think and crystallize some details that tend to just be floating about in my mind and points out directions that I need to think in.   I do appreciate it.

Addendum:   Thanks for the direction to look towards.   As a former fan of the Bannson's Raiders, I am familiar of him and I should probably refresh myself on his rise, failings, and problems.    And I don't put it out of the realm of possibility that at least one of the players has machinations to someday reach that level of power or greater (namely the former Alpha Noble).

[Kitsune413]

I meant to add one last thing.

Keep the planets tech level in mind. A heavily industrialized planet with a mediocre tech level rating isnt going to do them alot of favors in a military sense. If it is like most battletech worlds with a 20th century tech level then they can make some knock off phones or ground cars but building a 20th century battle tank is going to get pounded by an age of war tank which would get pounded by a 32nd century tank.

The house books all have example tech levels. As well as example worlds.

[Kitsune413]

Also keep in mind a great portion of the planets industrial capacity is going to be in redundant enterprises. They have to make nails. If they dont make nails then they have to import nails, in which their supply of nails is dependant on the abundance of someone elses nail manufacturing. They have to clothe and feed their people. Build bricks. Build needles, to support their clothing the people industry. It wont be a planet of dudes waiting to build things. If they have lots of idle labor then they probably wouldnt be heavily industrialized.

[Khymerion]

Those are going to be good things to keep in mind when going into this.   Going to have to find a reasonable point to work with within realm of reason to be both fun to work with yet still present some limitation.   There is part of me that would seriously doubt if they would be able to get behind trying to raise up a TL A world into something worthwhile while an Age of War or Succession Wars era TL might be more believable for limiting them.   Still get access to some competitive/intro technologies but still needing to import higher level equipment...  give them something to shoot for/aspire to acquire.   Yes, that puts them in a lesser tier compared to front line worlds but considering their insulated location within in the realm, that gives them impetus towards having to make deals with the big interstellar corporate powers if they want to build up towards anything that might actually be taken seriously... assuming they can't make deals with the Arch Duke above them for assistance.

This will be an interesting Saturday with the Arch Duke's player and a very interesting Sunday with the players proper.

[guardiandashi]

I guess I am not evil enough ...

one thing I would tend to do is consider if this was an old star league world, or a long term davion or laio davion world,  if it was a star league world taken over by davion it might be heavily industrialized towards making something rather useless, (they have lots of factories to make shoes or ground cars or speeders or something and yay there is 3 speeders in every garage... but there is no capacity to make "real weapons" or armor, or similar.

now your players can try to change that but EVERYONE is gonna hate them if they do.

you know more sub plots

[Khymerion]

The world by map is too far towards the periphery, past New Avalon to be actually possibly a former Hegemony world.   It's proper location is the Crucis March, Regeman Combat Region near the border of the Point Barrow and Broken Wheel regions so definitely outside the boundaries of the Republic pre-black out.   So having it have a former Hegemony/SL crazy factory might be a bit of a stretch but...  their choices in neighboring worlds are about as equally nondescript.  Only 4 within jump range and 3 are deeper into the house while one is towards the periphery.     Perhaps a better world can be picked to work with... something to open them up to more danger.   Bah, so many worlds to chose from.

And more sub plots are always good.   It makes the balancing acts of personal agendas more interesting.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

  One of my players wanted to be a planetary duke of a wealthy planet with a long, glorious history and I gave him all he wanted -Suk II, currently under Clan Wolf occupation.

All he has to do is liberate it... 8)

BTW, the populace is happier without him.

[Minerva]

One of my characters recently got himself a title and player likes to play him seriously with more emphasis on his realm.

I am currently using a following mechanism (tailored to Lyran Commonwealth):
Each system that was part of Star League era has
1) Representative of lanet to Estates General (chosen by planet to represent itself by whatever method planet wishes as long as she is not in peerage).
2) Noble ruler (who is usually original owner/developer of the planet) with title of Duke (assume all Lyran planets in SL era were populous enough to warrant this title).

Then each planet has following noble structure:
1 Duke
2D6 - 1 Counts, each who who rule over continent.
2D6 Counts who are major land owners at planetary level who have gotten their titles through being plutocrats.
4D6 plutocrats with roughly same property as above mentioned nobles.

Each Continent has following noble structure:
1 Count
2D6 - 1 Barons, each who who rule over a "state".
2D6 Barons who are major land owners at continental level who have gotten their titles through being plutocrats.
4D6 plutocrats with roughly same property as above mentioned nobles.

Each Baron rules over something roughly equal to modern major state (10 to 50 million population).

Other titles (Marquis and viscount) are given on "as needed" basis.

For House Davion and House Marik the noble titles are tied to land and gained for performance in war. Roll normally for nobles with land. Then roll for plutocrats as 6D6 plutocrats at each level.
(I assume that there exists roughly 50:50 division between plutocrats and nobility in Lyran Commonwealth that uses very open nobility system.)

The population numbers are for pre-Succession War Levels and may be lowered by factor of 10 to 100 depending on place and GM fiat.

[Khymerion]

You know what...   that is a pretty good system to run with.   Thank you very much for sharing!  Especially less than 5 hours before I need to run today.   Time to break out the name generator and get to putting personality quirks to paper.   Again, thank you!

[Minerva]

Another thing to consider is that no system is truly independent in Inner Sphere.

You can easily make assumption that land is initially kept by colonial venture financier and then by other interstellar concerns. This land is owned by planetary ruler if system has declared itself independent.

There is a long-term trend towards falling amount of ownership by initial interstellar concerns as they eventually need to reward more and more of their followers with titles and tracks of land. Simultaneously there is a long-term trend towards increase in ownership by rising interstellar concerns as they increase their power in systems due dynastic ties and fortunes of war and favour.

The off-world ownership falls towards roughly 30% of land in long term from 70% (this is rough distribution in invaded land in one medieval example).

Assume there are three off-world owners in land: Primary Interest, Secondary Interest and Tertiary Interest (Comstar). The percentages owned by various lords naturally depend on history of the system.

Use following guideline to set your interstellar empire:
I assume that all Interests are either:
a) Major public political entity such as Major Interstellar Empire (for example Lyran Commonwealth), Regional Interstellar Empire (for example Tamar Pact) or InterStellar Proto-State (numerous small co-operative factions that existed before Major Interstellar Empires).
b) Various smaller colonial ventures by small entities. <Venture> is foundation, religion, corporation, ideology, nation-state in Earth (like Austria) etc.


1) Was system colonized during Earth Alliance supremacy?

if System was part of original colonization drive the Primary Interest is either Earth Alliance or <Venture> with another being Secondary Interest if it existed.

Choose one of the following:
a) Primary 70% <Venture>
b) Primary 70% <Earth Alliance>
c) Primary 50% <Earth Alliance> and Secondary 20% <Venture>
d) Primary 50% <Venture> and Secondary 20% <Earth Alliance>

When Demarcation Declaration happened in 2242 each system outside 30LY radius became automatically independent.

Now system is ruled by either <Venture> or new independent planetary government.

Choose one of the following:
a) Primary 70% <Venture>
b) Primary 70% <Independent>
c) Primary 50% <Independent> and Secondary 20% <Venture>
d) Primary 50% <Venture> and Secondary 20% <Independent>

2) Was it created during Exodus?

During this time the various independent colonies were formed as Earth was facing steady exodus of population and colonization effort ran at wild pace. During this time the civilization reaches 150LY range.

At this time most new colonies are Ventures and local independent systems remain weak. Public concerns describe nearby independent systems colonizing to support themselves to become proto-states (for example Alliance of Galedon).

Choose one of the following for new colony:
a) Primary 70% <Venture>
b) Primary 70% <Proto-state>
c) Primary 50% <Proto-state> and Secondary 20% <Venture>
d) Primary 50% <Venture> and Secondary 20% <Proto-state>

3) How it became part of a Empire during Second Exodus?

If colony already existed during exodus, it eventually becomes part of a major alliance during chaotic colonization drive. Two major reasons are for being part of alliance are joining to a defensive alliance or a predatory alliance.

Ultimately these alliances form large interstellar empires (LIE) with far more power and several Regional interstelar empires (RIE) as its smaller parts.
 
Alliance forming also means that various local colonies have to give up certain amount of their resources to alliance. The local ventures eventually became normal part of local system and its government. Amount of power shift depends how agreeably alliance/empire and colony interacted during this time:

LIE and colony or member of RIE/LIE (traumatic)
--> Primary 50% (LIE) and 20% Secondary (RIE), 30% Local

RIE and colony or member of RIE/LIE (traumatic)
--> Primary 50% (RIE), 50% Local

RIE and colony or member of RIE/LIE (agreeable)
--> Secondary 20% (RIE), 80% Local

LIE and colony or member of RIE/LIE (agreeable)
--> Primary 5% (LIE), Secondary 20% (RIE), 75% Local

---

4) Did System change hands during empire formation?

The chaotic time of Second Exodus before Age of War finally colisondated the large interstellar empires led to situation where many systems changed hands for various reasons. Civil wars were common too during concentration of power to RIEs.

Use Step 3 to determine if system was part of numerous localized conflicts during time. Perhaps 1D6 - 4 traumatic events happened in this time. Otherwise assume that system continued without problems through these turbulent times.

For example some systems in Federation of Skye did not agree to colisondation of power to Marsden. These systems went through a civil war. Depict this as RIE and colony or member of RIE/LIE (traumatic).

5) Did system exchange owner during Age of War?

The first major interstellar war between RIEs was Age of War. During this times several systems exchanged owners.
Use RIE and colony or member of RIE/LIE (traumatic) to depict major invasion result and LIE and colony or member of RIE/LIE (agreeable) if there was a negotiated result.

6) How Succession Wars touched your system?

Most unfortunately the Star League ended with a brutal war and interstellar nuclear holocaust and near collapse of civilization with anarchy. The only hope was Comstar that maintained some resemblance of civilization admist brutal warlords.

This benevolence made Comstar moral compass of Inner Sphere and led to rapid increase of its power as it received any gifts and donations to support its efforts.

Simultaneously there was steady decline of power with all interstellar empires as warlords had to sell their land stakes and titles to raise money to wage war.

The collapse of RIEs was most remarkable during 1st Succession War while comstars power increased most durinng 3rd Succession War.

Assume that all interstellar interests sell off and gain donations at following percentages (do not reduce if stake is already 0) during Succession Wars:

RIE/LIE/Comstar
1st Succession War: -15% / -5% / +5%
2nd Succession War: -10% / -5% / +5%
3rd Succession War: -5% / 0% / +10%

Net gain in percentage goes to local lords in the system.

7) Were there are consequences of Jihad?

Invasion by Kerensky's barbarian hordes and Comstar's active participation in wars increased Comstars respect but these short terms gains were eventually wiped out and worse during its bloody schism that engulfed entire Inner Sphere (often called Jihad). Assume that many local lords simply took over Comstar's lands during this time.

-10% to Comstar's land ownership in Inner Sphere. This is a major source of local arguments during this era.

---

This system should be used to determine what percentage of power was ruled by which power during system's history as long as landowners are concerned.

For example after Marsden's bloody civil war the power in one planet you roll for all landowning counts:

LIE and colony or member of RIE/LIE (traumatic)
--> Primary 50% (LIE) and 20% Secondary (RIE), 30% Local

Roll 1D10: 1-5 (--> serves Archon directly), 6-7 (serves Duke of Skye directly), 8-10 (--> serves Duke of Planet) 

Now, assuming that it is end of Jihad the balance is:
--> Primary 20% (LIE) and 10% Secondary (RIE), 10% Comstar, 60% Local


The same method should be used to also Barons underneath these lords (naturally they serve Count above them).

End result is that you have a feudal pyramid where each lord is both tied to next upper level by chain of command yet also swears loyalty to a lord that totally different person. This means that you can have total confusion in chain of command due peculiarities of dynastic family inheritance, treason trials and fortunes of war...

[imperator]

I just thought of an OPFOR/Ally for your players that might also keep them in line as an arbiter.  Have then come into contact of a group "Retired" NPCs( Say Old guys/Old girls from a famouse unit-Davion Brigade of Guards comes to mind).  If you don't like them brainwashing the population with loyalties to themsleves, have the old guys meet with them, say this not what we do here in the FS.  If they try to spy on them, have their spies disapear.  If they try to pull their money sources, Tell them they are protected by special Davion law vs Veterans or that the bankers they use are actually more old guys from the Brigade of Guards( with a possible grain silo holding a surprise-damn why do all these all guys have grain silos?) The old guys are hard to assasinate, because they have been playing the "Game" for years, have contacts/allies everywhere, are the local heroes, and are rich unlanded nobles(maybe a small unentailed farm, with attached hiden MECH Cache, I mean GRAIN SILO),  and maybe hoping for a Good Davion like Hanse and Victor to return the Glory of the Fedrated Suns( Yup make them Fanatically Loyal like the three Musketters and D'Artagnan in the "Man in the Iron Mask", to the House/Family Davion, not neccesarily the house lord). Hell, make them the Four Muskeers in Heavy/Assault Clan Mechs.  I don't care how good the Bodyguard forces/Militia of the nobles are, A Lance/Company of Eilte Mechwarrior( with 3-5 SPAs each) in even Old(3025) Medium to Heavy 'mechs is going to to Godzilla a Castle/factory before they are taken down. Possibly do even more damage.

[Minerva]

Once the movers and shakers have been identified the next step is deciding what characters need to decide how their realm (I'd think polity is official term) is ruled.

Realm should have at least:
a) It has territorially defined population recognizing common government.
b) Government has a civil service to carry out decisions and a military service to back these decisions and protect itself from other realms.
c) It is recognized by other realms and it has status to act independently within its own realm towards its population.

Once all (especially players) recognize these issues the basis of running a realm should be determined.

---

Realm has rough territorial format that determines how it organizes itself within its borders.

Each realm has Core area where its laws and regulations are fully enforced and whose inhabitants take part in its governing.

Outside Core area you can have Periphery areas where realms customs are hardly observed at all and who organize themselves as they see fit.

First, you need to choose Core and Periphery for each territorial duke, count and baron according to one of the following formats:

a) Considerably small core that rules its areas as dependencies.
For Duke there is one Core Continent (her realm) with all territorial Counts are Periphery
For Count there is one Core State (her realm) with all territorial Barons are Periphery
For Baron there is one Core City (her realm) with all territorial Baronets are Periphery

b) Entire realm has common core.
For Duke there is one Core Continent (her realm) with all territorial Counts are Core
For Count there is one Core State (her realm) with all territorial Barons are Core
For Baron there is one Core City (her realm) with all territorial Baronets are Core

Second, you need to consider role of mainstream culture within realm as well. Use same method to determine major Cultures within your system.

Third, you need to consider role of mainstream religion within realm as well. Use same method to determine major Religions within your system.

Note that you can have truly monolithic or balkanized planet if everything is either fully cored or divided to core and periphery but generally there should be a mixture of core and periphery areas.

I suggest that your system starts on everyone being with same culture, religion and territorial format during colony phase and then rerolling for changes whenever there is a change in who rules what in system's history.

I'd use a system where all three factors are rerolled whenever there is a change in leadership. Roll 1D6, with 1-3 denoting a break due major change in leadership at Duke, County or Baron level.

---

Game mechanistically the roles of cultures and religions should not be deterministic. However, belonging to a different culture or religion should have a opinion modifier that can throw interesting snags to negotiations...

[StuartYee]

I'm sort of jumping in here, but my first thought is this- there are lots of problems that can't be solved with money. Throw that at them.

-Misjump to an uncharted system. Jumpdrive fried. All the money in the galaxy won't help here.
-An enemy who's even richer
-If one of your rich characters has the Dark Secret trait, there's a chance the secret is going to uncovered. It might be due to circumstances that can't be solved with money (some evidence to the Secret was uncovered and investigative agencies are already on the trail)
-Home planet is captured by an enemy House and source of wealth is GONE
-PCs buy all the expensive toys they want. Then it gets stolen.
-Rich PCs have health problems. Incurable. Except there's rumor that the SL had found a cure- LOSTECH HUNT!

Just some ideas off the cuff

[Kitsune413]

I'm sort of jumping in here, but my first thought is this- there are lots of problems that can't be solved with money. Throw that at them.

-Misjump to an uncharted system. Jumpdrive fried. All the money in the galaxy won't help here.

this could be fun and interesting for them.

-An enemy who's even richer

when you are a noble you make some noble enemies.

-If one of your rich characters has the Dark Secret trait, there's a chance the secret is going to uncovered. It might be due to circumstances that can't be solved with money (some evidence to the Secret was uncovered and investigative agencies are already on the trail)

unless they're dealing with fanatics these problems can unfortunately be solved with money. even if they shouldn't be able to

-Home planet is captured by an enemy House and source of wealth is GONE

I am ok with this because it leads to a campaign where they are trying to get their things back. This is generally a good thing.

-PCs buy all the expensive toys they want. Then it gets stolen.

I've seen to many GM's do this... and most of them don't have the players 'fun' as a concern. You should try to avoid situations where you are 'taking' from your players.

now everything is a bargain. If you lose your mech to complete a mission then that's an ugly transaction. But its fine to bargain with players. Stealing from them, unless its going to be fun to get the taken things back is not.

-Rich PCs have health problems. Incurable. Except there's rumor that the SL had found a cure- LOSTECH HUNT!

that's a really cool idea

Just some ideas off the cuff
[/quote]

[Khymerion]

I'm sort of jumping in here, but my first thought is this- there are lots of problems that can't be solved with money. Throw that at them.

No problem with jumping in!

-Misjump to an uncharted system. Jumpdrive fried. All the money in the galaxy won't help here.

Getting lost is always a big problem... but depriving players of their intended roles permanently does not tend to sit well with those players.   Especially if it is a Jump Drive failure that equals scrap/permanent lost in space thing.  It works well in movies and books but if the players are not super techs/trained in how to handle it, you tend to have players who are next to worthless for long stretches of time... especially if the way out of it relies on a skill that no one or only a single person has.  One missed or botched roll or a terrible mishap to that single useful character in a stranded situation and suddenly there is no hope and the campaign grinds to a terrible halt with no one satisfied or happy.

-An enemy who's even richer

Always a perennial favorite.   That and it gives players something to target.

-If one of your rich characters has the Dark Secret trait, there's a chance the secret is going to uncovered. It might be due to circumstances that can't be solved with money (some evidence to the Secret was uncovered and investigative agencies are already on the trail)

This has actually come up in the campaign in question from which this thread has evolved.   They didn't start with a dark secret but they sure earned it.   And money has gone a long ways to smooth but not completely solve the problem.   It was former Noble Alpha by the way who's 'initiative' in putting the whole house of cards into question.

-Home planet is captured by an enemy House and source of wealth is GONE

Tempted to do that.  If things due to the previously mentioned dark secret evolve in a way they can't keep a lid on... it might not be an enemy house that is doing the invading...

-PCs buy all the expensive toys they want. Then it gets stolen.

Can't rely on this crutch for too long.  It is good for a plot hook or to get things moving but if used too much, it tends to sit very poorly and leads to further acts of paranoia.

-Rich PCs have health problems. Incurable. Except there's rumor that the SL had found a cure- LOSTECH HUNT!

This one sounds fun and interesting.   Did something similar to this in a campaign a long time ago and watched as a player who was playing a doctor tried to save the other player.   They didn't trust NPC doctors (my rolls are NOTORIOUSLY bad) so decided to stay within the party.   It didn't end well.  Seems botches are universal and the poor ace pilot died on the table.  Oops.

Just some ideas off the cuff

Thank you for sharing!


Ooooh, also... thank you again Kitsune413 for the work you did.   It has been a very helpful item to work with to help develop the world and the players have sunk their teeth deep into it...  which caused the 'problem'.  Trying to root out 'undesirables' of 'suspicious' family and political backgrounds has gotten things moving and interesting in ways that mere money can't get them out of it.  That and the old men's club of veterans that were suggested by Imperator has gone over quite well, keeping the players on edge... especially with the fall out.

So thank you all again for your suggestions!

[Pyro]

Just find expensive things you can spend the money on.  So, you've got enough money to buy a planet.  Problem is, the only planets that have titles available all kind of suck in their own way, so they're fixer-uppers that need major boosts to their education systems, infrastructure, and economic bases...  then if you build those, pirates want to steal it, because they're far from the front lines and underdefended, so you have to hire mercenaries or establish your own defense forces...

So say you navigate all of this and become the billionaire playboy philanthropist ruler of the Jewel of the Periphery.  Then what?  Then you face the named pirate bands in the books, whichever enemy house or periphery state you're nearest starts raiding your world, the expanded economy makes industrial espionage and sabotage into real issues as you suddenly butt in on long-established trade patterns, and the established (and higher) nobility of the realm becomes resentful of the new upstart that's making them look like a bunch of leeches that live the high life and contribute nothing to society and start making plans to bump him off, take what he has, destroy his reputation, or any combination of the above.

Rich people have problems too, and those can scale up almost indefinitely.  You think Maximilian Liao doesn't have problems?  How about the First Lord of the Star League?  Oh yeah, they do, and not just the ones inside their own heads.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

  Aqs a GM I don't like to throw improbable events at my players -No misjumps, no Deus Ex Machina events. I prefer to give them all the rope they want and enjoy their struggles to undo the traps they set for themselves.
  They got into a tangle with Clan Diamond Shark and lost several individual challenges -If they fought any other Clan I would have them roll up new characters. Instead, I allowed them to arrange exchanges in millions of C bills worth of trade items per character, which bankrupted one enough to retire from the campaign because he wanted to quit while he was ahead.

  For the most part, having huge sums of money does give the players the ability to mitigate almost any problem they encounter in the Inner Sphere. Almost. It does not get rid of negative reputations caused by stupid actions on the battlefield, nor has it gotten rid of the bounties on the heads of characters who tortured and executed prisoners during an anti-rebel mission.

  Give the players enough freedom and they will eventually screw up all on their own...

[Kitsune413]

Im generally not out to get my players. Im there to tell a story and alot of times that does let the players hang themselves.

I do play the antagonist as the gm. But I play protagonists too. I have intentionally killed certain characters. Particularly combat monsters. But I have never done so I a way that the player hasnt understood and enjoyed. (As strange as that sounds)

I am still not convinced that there is a "money" problem.

Banson had more money. For all of his influence and power he made a mech with a fossil fuel engine and 3025 technology. He was also politically out played.

If your players arent jacob banson, the ruler of Skye and the surrounding area or the ceo of Irian industries they arent that influential. Or heavy.

[kato]

Give them a decent investment road that you can later pull on for spiralling costs and random events. The whole capitalism thing, basically. They're on a backwater planet, it's bound for someone to exploit it.

One idea would be something along the lines of an interstellar consortium wanting to strip-mine for some rarer metal on their land. Hook them with moderate returns that would add to their wealth, draw them into further side contracts such as providing for certain needs for the mines. If they play it right, it could consolidate their position as being among the "movers and shakers" on the planet, with contacts well beyond their system.

Later cue needs for expansion of space-ports and other similar large-scale investment, unrest among farmers over environmental fallout, cultural clashes between miners brought in and their local population, the consortium essentially buying up educated manpower from the market, maybe with security needs spiralling out of control. Consortium brings their own mercenaries to the board too, maybe. If you want to escalate the situation, have said consortium actively act against the players behind the scenes. Have the group go to other nobles for certain things, play one against each other for their own ends, exploit political groups, remove dissident voices among the population, buy off people left and right. If you want a more personal involvement, bring in a couple decent leadership figures within this group that fill the role of antagonists for your players too.

[guardiandashi]

never had a major issue with "too much money" to be honest the closest was in a marvel hero's campaign where one of the other chars had "too much transmute" power (and it wasn't me) it gets a little crazy when the "tony stark" character doesn't have to buy the special materials on the market... one of the other chars can just turn cheap stuff into expensive stuff.  like transmuting iron or steel into vibranium (or the equivalent)  and it gets nuts in a hurry.

on the other hand "stealing" from the chars in the wrong way can really generate some long term resentment.  I reference a Gurps campaign I played in and I was again playing a "Tony Stark" style char, but I had invested in +2 tech levels for my char, this means I personally have access to or can build stuff like ... a modern computer in 1980 when everyone else is limited to stuff like the old PC-PC/AT commodore 64, coco3, Atari computer etc.  and the game atarts and the first encounter?  we find that the bad guys organization AS  a WHOLE has tl+2 stuff as standard equipment, so my character who blew big amounts of the build budget to be "special" is second fiddle and playing catchup to the "bad guys" who were effectively a government or government agency who for whatever reason were upset with the party

[monbvol]

Battletech does present a bit of a twist on the too much money problem.  The setting to me has always been portrayed as there just isn't enough to go around and thus it isn't as simple as dropping a few billion C-Bills and getting a new Mech factory at least started.  If it were that simple we'd see it happen a lot more in the fiction/setting as that kind of money realistically should be chump change for all but the poorest planets.

Nor is it as easy as having 20 million on hand and viola Marauder with varying amounts of change left over depending on era.

[ColonelCody]

I once had  a serious problem with a trio of players and their characters in a previous BT campaign of mine. They had uber-godly amounts of weaponry and ammo and were richer than the dreams of Avarice...However.. they had ego problems. SERIOUS ego problems. When they started to become a serious problem with their tech, equipment and money, I decided to allow them to begin to make serious enemies. You get a rep for being a bad ass merc, bad ass merc has a nego, an ego gets stepped on by a local NPC who doesn't like mercs, doesn't trust these ones in particular and they crossed a line. Didn't just cross it but they did a jig on it. Riverdance style...a lot..
So I created a small, highly trained, highly competent group of black ops guys working for said bad guys (WoB btw. Yah one of 'em pissed of a WoB ROM Precentor..) Same number as the PCs and their enterouge of NPCS combined. at the time in group 6 men and women. The NPC bad guys were created with the exact same points spent as the PCs. I kept careful records for them to view afterwards I knew they would demand to see them. (It's a House right for my players. It keeps both me and them honest in my view). And then I created. The 'Skidoosh" (Pro. Ske-doosh).... A sniper rifle that uses micro gauss technology. Only 6 exist in the entire known galaxy. It takes 2 men to man & wield it properly. Designed to sniper from immense distances, requiring the use of Neural link technology (to prevent the PCS from using it properly if it was captured wich it was).
The Skidoosh killed my N/PC (the character I played when the other GM ran the game), and the two problem PCs who were the ones who had the hit on them. Also one of the other PCs lost a hand from a collateral damage when their car was blown up.
All I'm saying is, If need be, there is always "The Final Answer". I've had to do it 5 times to players in maybe3? 4? campaigns In the course of nearly 35 years of RPG gaming. I figure not a bad score....

[Kitsune413]

The real problem is a gms perception of money. Most gms are prepared to throw an adventurer against orcs. Money is more abstract than that.

Dude makes 15 million a year? A 3025 locust, adjusted for 3145 inflation costs 9 million cbills.

A scout class jumpship would take him 20 years to buy... before you take into account inflation.

Gm's tend to think, "he makes 15 million a year? He us going to take over the galaxy!"

Every other dude who runs a planet makes the same amount so you have an "average" income noble.

There will be business men on his planet that makes more money than him. There will be interstellar corps touching his planet that will make him look like the working poor.

Jacob Banson barely bear age of war tech mechs with all of his wealth (which was much more than any player is likely to achieve.

Characters having money is not game breaking... and as a gm it should be your job to make sure they have fun and can try to leverage that influence and power, among antagonists that probably make more than he or she does.

You dont have to steal it from them or punish them for making a type of character that might be out of your storytelling depth.

If you want your players to build a clantech factory in the inner sphere and build daishi's with their tiny sums of money when the gdp of entire stellar nations havent managed it in a century then that is fine for your game.

But I think we gms can educate ourselves to tell high income stories, make them challenging and realisti. And fun instead  of getting intimidated and having that player be the only dude with money in the galaxy.

[Pyro]

Pretty much, the higher you rise, the bigger the bullseye painted on your back.  The more you have to use, the more you have that can be taken.  Enemy houses and pirates want to steal what you have, other nobles want to see you stripped of power, or bend you to their causes, and House Lords if anybody understand that the duties of nobility go both ways.  They may look at what you've built and go "Hey, that's pretty spiffy.  I need a company of 'Mechs sent to the front, get on it."

[RMDC]

Characters having money is not game breaking... and as a gm it should be your job to make sure they have fun and can try to leverage that influence and power, among antagonists that probably make more than he or she does.

You dont have to steal it from them or punish them for making a type of character that might be out of your storytelling depth.

QFT.

[ColonelCody]

Pretty much, the higher you rise, the bigger the bullseye painted on your back.  The more you have to use, the more you have that can be taken.  Enemy houses and pirates want to steal what you have, other nobles want to see you stripped of power, or bend you to their causes, and House Lords if anybody understand that the duties of nobility go both ways.  They may look at what you've built and go "Hey, that's pretty spiffy.  I need a company of 'Mechs sent to the front, get on it."

Exactly so. Look at the Kell Hounds, when they started out they were considered just a pair of rich punks with a dream. Morgan got into fistfights to defend themselves and their goals. Eventually he's facing down the single best MechWarrior in the DCMS leading arguably the single best unit to defend the corpse of the First Prince of the FedSuns. That placed a HUGE target between their shoulders. Send con men at them, Tax Collectors, debt collectors, force them to contribute to their land holdings maintenance and upgrades. taxes don't always cover the maintenance and upgrades. The whole point of the Feudal system is for the nobles to take care of stuff at that level of local government. The point of being Nobles is that you are stuck with certain Responsibilities. Who's watching their stuff while their off playing "Axis and Allies" on a Sphere-wide scale? No one ever said that the guy watching their stuff was a good guy or even loyal or competetant

[Col Toda]

AToW Companion has a much more detailed description of title and money and it's distribution .

[Warpimp]

...

Increase the threat level?  Perhaps it's just me but... 15 million cbills a year seems like chump change.  I'm used to running merc campaigns where we run a regiment or more, and have that amount monthly as part of our budget. 

Really a Duke should have at least enough obligations that he should be supporting a regiment to defend it.

There are a myriad of issues that a noble has to handle and by making these types of characters that is the kind of situations your players are telling you they want to be in.

Also, make situations where they should be leading from the front to press their weaker skills and make it hurt when their troops and allies see how poorly they pilot 'Mechs. That counts for something in the Inner Sphere, especially in the DC or Fedsuns.

[William J. Pennington]

So, I think the question I really am asking is...  how do you handle a game with TWO dukes (with appropriate property holdings) running around?   Should I just go and tell them 'Sorry...  I can only have a single super noble...  pick who gets to be the one...  in this flaming circle of death I have carved into the snow out back.'   They did both come to the same conclusion without talking to each other or knowing the other's plans.

Actually, its easier to simply out wealth limits right out front. No Nobles--or at east, no nobles with money or lands.  If someone wants to play the 5th son of a broke noble who has not that much money to start with, that is workable.

If the campaign focuses on a game of nobles, and everyone is Noble, or a highly placed servant of a noble with matching resources and skills that is doable..but a unusual campaign.

Stop problems before they become problems: tell players what the general theme of the campaign is, and tell them flat out what you will or won't allow.  It saves you a lot of time.

[monbvol]

*nod*

Even though my group is fairly decent our biggest problem is effective communication about GM and campaign expectation with a side order of insufficient player plotting how to achieve such ends.

Still some good ways to solve the dilemma have been mentioned and I'll just reinforce that there do need to be hurdles that no amount of money can overcome that the wealthy PCs have to solve themselves.