Author Topic: Vehicle of 3 Weeks Ago: Gurzil Support Tank  (Read 7006 times)

False Son

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Vehicle of 3 Weeks Ago: Gurzil Support Tank
« on: 28 April 2014, 22:48:00 »

Gurzil Support Tank.  TRO3145, The Clans, page 25.
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LRM tanks are not new to the Jade Falcons, or the clans in general.  You may recall a time when the Jade Falcons possessed a Hachiman or two.  Sarna claims the Eagle Craft Group built them on Ironhold, but I can't confirm that with my current level of interest.  Anyway, the Hachiman was not built in the Jade Falcon Occupation Zone after the Jihad.  The conclusion of that cataclysmic conflict left the Inner Sphere in a period of relative peace and a mandate for the Jade Falcons to reduce the number of battlemechs in their Touman.

Over the years the Falcons have embraced a more open minded embrace of conventional combat vehicles and infantry.  Open minded by Falcon standards, at least.  Their lack of respect for conventional forces is a continuing theme in their 3145 TRO entries, as i've expressed in my articles about the Nacon and Skadi.  The Gurzil Support Tank is a more successfull attempt to integrate clan technology with the uncivilized combat vehicle.  Trellshire Heavy Industries was tasked with creating the first Jade Falcons vehicle specifically made for direct combat.  Previous vehicles, like the Sokar, or Chalci were built with very specific roles in mind, and sacrificed some aspect of their design that would make them suitable combatants.  Perhaps Trellshire Heavy Industries's experience in building the Demolisher and SturmFeur is what allowed the Falcons to finally produce a battle tank not relegated purely to gun duty, like the famously flimsy Oro.

There are only so many ways you can outfit a dedicated missile tank.  The LRM and Heavy LRM Carriers have toyed with the configurations of launchers, while the Partisan LRM and Ontos LRM have contributed to the multitude of choices.  Some platforms embrace atypical weapons, like Thunderbolt launchers, MMLs and Enhanced LRMs.  The Gurzil Support Tank calls upon the heritage of these other tanks and attempts to outdo them all, while failing to threaten their superiority in the realm of indirect fire.

Almost every aspect of the Gurzil is superior to the clan's older LRM platforms.  A 320 rated XL Fusion engine allows the Gurzil to spin it's tracks at 4/6 MP.  That is faster than many LRM tanks, and more heavily armed than the majority of missile tanks trying to keep pace.  This is tanks to the Gurzil's unique armament: a pair of front mounted Mech Mortar 8s and a turret packed with twin Medium Pulse Lasers and Streak LRM 15s.  The additional tonnage of using Streak LRMs might seem like a waste, given the tremendous advantages of clan LRMs over their Inner Sphere counterparts.  However, the ability to take the most unlikely shots without fear of running out of ammo circumvents a common complaint (I have) concerning LRM platforms.  Mech Mortars are hardly the most efficient weapons, but do provide some options that are lost in the use of Streak LRMs. 

12.5 tons of Ferro Lamelar armor cuts and impressive 41/34/32/34 profile.  At first glance this is awesome.  But, once you recover from the initial euphoria of having Ferro Lamellar, you might wish for the additional protection of ferro fibrous.  Negating the always frustrating LBX cluster round certainly helps a combat vehicle, and the additional damage reduction to other weapons is really nice.  But, don't be fooled.  The Gurzil doesn't like to be shot.  A SRM missile reduced to 1 damage still has a chance to cause a motive or standard critical hit.  So don't be overconfident about the survival prospects of a tank that dishes out the kind of damage a Gurzil can.

Ammunition is still scarce.  5 tons of Mech Mortar ammo means you can select a few specialized tons of ammo.  But, the 1765 BV of the Gurzil demands the majority of your ammo is going to be devoted to dealing damage, in the form of HE.  Lower BV missile platforms ca take care of rolling out the smoke, illumination or frags.  Let the mortars do the mean work of following up to the Streak LRMs.  Ammo for the Streak LRMs come out to 3 tons.  The Streak function will make the ammo go further, and even a 12 to hit is worth rolling.

At present there are no variants of the Gurzil.  That might be a good thing, given the Jade Falcon track record with vehicle designs. 

~

The Variable Range Targeting quirk allows you to predict what range bracket your opponent will be at the end of the next movement phase.  Live out your Babe Ruth fantasies by calling your range.  It pays off if you are correct, but otherwise provides a penalty to hit.  This provides the benefits of Improved Targeting quirks, but is able to be managed for maximum benefit.

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The Gurzil Support Tank occupies an unsual place among LRM platforms.  In an age where JES IIs and JES IIIs have the indirect fire game pretty neatly zipped up, the Gurzil is faster, tougher, tracked and packing energy weapons.  If you are looking for a purely IDF platform in the Dark Age they don't get much better than the JES III's no nonsense 3/5 wheeled quartet of LRM15s.  But, if you are looking for a front line missiles tank the Gurzil is an option.  The Falcons have been using SturmFeur assault tanks for LRM support, built by THI as well.  The Gurzil represents a major step up in technology and performance, as well as some long deserved attention to conventional forces.

And this is where things get a little confusing.  The Mech Mortars perform better when a dedicated forward observer is calling in.  That also reinforces the idea of the Gurzil being used in IDF.  But, the Streak LRM15s can't be used for IDF.  The MPLs are decent enough close defense weapons, but won't sync well with the LRMs and MMs when Variable Range Targetting is used.  To add to the difficulty getting this weapons package to work together is the minimum range of the Mech Mortars.

The Gurzil occupies the 7 slot on the Jade Falcon Assault vehicle chart, which is an improvement over the 3085 assault vehicle RAT.  In a pinch the Gurzil can stand next to a Kewlswa, Carnivore, or other heavy armor the Falcons employ, but the Mech Mortars are front mounted.  Getting immobilized by motive crits will hurt your firing prospects more than a tank with the majority of the firepower concentrated in the turret.  The trouble with the Gurzil lies mostly in being able to justify the BV.  It clocks in as less than the Kelswa or Carnivore, but still has a BV on par with many Inner Sphere heavy mechs.  Is the Guzil the equal of a Warhammer 8D?  It can be.  The long ranged firepower of the Gurzil easily outputs that of a Warhammer, as long as the ammunition lasts.

What is really fun about the Gurzil's particular type of damage is in how it resists degration by Anti-Missile-Systems.  Streak LRMs will always hurt for 15, or 9 against a target with AMS.  Mech Mortars have variable damage, but they are not effected by AMS.  These are good qualities in the Dark Age, where redundant and seemingly obligitory A-M Systems are installed more frequently on combat vehicles.

~

Combating the Gurzil provides some new challenges given it's combination of armor and weaponry.  The old fall back of using LBX-AC cluster rounds, or Silver Bullet Gauss Rifles to generate numerous critical hits is not an option thanks to Ferro Lamellar.  Fighting at range can be tricky because of the Streak LRM15s ability to take risky shots and still conserve ammo, while putting all 15 missiles on target.  The Mech Mortars have a variety of special ammunitions that can likewise make ranged combat risky.  Getting in close trades the Mech Mortars for Medium Pulse Lasers.

Weapons that outrange the SLRMs/MMs, even on small overlaps are a one route.  LGRs, SNPPCs and clan ER Large lasers have superior ranges at certain intervals.  Flanking the Gurzil is another option, as the Mech Mortars are front mounted.  Of course, concentrated fire on the Gurzil will buckle the hull, as it is not the most hardy 80 ton design.  But do knock it out quickly.  For a 80 ton tank it may not seem like it has the most ferocious firepower because it lacks big guns like Gauss Rifles or CERPPCs.  But, the damage of the missiles weapons does add up, and chews through conventional forces.  Do not underestimate the punch of the Gurzil on the size and number of the missile launchers alone.
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Scotty

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Re: Vehicle of 3 Weeks Ago: Gurzil Support Tank
« Reply #1 on: 28 April 2014, 23:04:49 »
The trick to using this tank is to realize that just because a vehicle mounts multiple sets of weapons doesn't mean you have to use them all, every time.  Play the long game, firing smoke and HE indirectly with the aid of a spotter.  Flares for night fighting.  AB for killing infantry in the open.  The Gurzil is a tank dedicated to removing nuisances from the field in the early stages.

When you run out of ammunition for the mortars, or are otherwise encroached upon by enemy units, switch to the MPL and Streak LRMs up close.  This is when you play the damage game, attempting to cripple or kill anything that gets up in your face.  Streak LRMs let you do this for a pretty long time, especially after the five tons of mortar ammunition that you've been using until now.

That mix of weapons means that you're going to be in the field - and fresh - far longer than most other fire support units, and you can use that to your advantage.  Streak LRMs are pretty mean crit-seekers.  Guaranteed three clusters and 15 damage, and you're pretty likely to get a PSR up close.  4/6 isn't record breaking speed, but it's fast enough to play the cover game and isolate wounded enemies to beat up on.
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Re: Vehicle of 3 Weeks Ago: Gurzil Support Tank
« Reply #2 on: 29 April 2014, 01:01:27 »
The trick to using this tank is to realize that just because a vehicle mounts multiple sets of weapons doesn't mean you have to use them all, every time.  Play the long game

That's just un-clanlike  :P

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Re: Vehicle of 3 Weeks Ago: Gurzil Support Tank
« Reply #3 on: 29 April 2014, 01:02:37 »
Rules quibble: ferro-lamellor actually doesn't quite negate LB-X cluster. While it won't scratch the armor as such and find itself unable to inflict proper TACs, you still roll for motive system damage as normal (TacOps p. 280) -- meaning that the tank can still be immobilized by it and then pounded on with heavier weapons (or simply the same LB-X switching to standard rounds) to finish it off.

Other than that, no firm opinion on the Gurzil yet since this is the first time I remember actually hearing of it (incidentally, here's what little Wikipedia has to say about the guy it was apparently named for), but it sure looks like the designers were trying to make a general-purpose tank with decent enough speed, weapons for most every occasion, and ammo enough to last quite a while in the field. They may just have done a pretty good job of it, too -- as long as the user keeps in mind that it is a "support tank", not an MBT.

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Re: Vehicle of 3 Weeks Ago: Gurzil Support Tank
« Reply #4 on: 29 April 2014, 08:22:46 »
I like this one, the art is cool and the mix of weapons is fun, though I'm not really sure how to use it with the new Jade Falcon mechs that are mostly very jumpy and long ranged so these tanks might draw a lot of fire because they are the only thing with a decent chance of being hit. I'd be interested in any suggestions of how people use them.


Also, I could have sworn there was a Clicks mini of this thing but my research suggests that was just some kind of weird deja vu at my part.

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Re: Vehicle of 3 Weeks Ago: Gurzil Support Tank
« Reply #5 on: 29 April 2014, 09:16:42 »
The trick to using this tank is to realize that just because a vehicle mounts multiple sets of weapons doesn't mean you have to use them all, every time.  Play the long game, firing smoke and HE indirectly with the aid of a spotter.  Flares for night fighting.  AB for killing infantry in the open.  The Gurzil is a tank dedicated to removing nuisances from the field in the early stages.

When you run out of ammunition for the mortars, or are otherwise encroached upon by enemy units, switch to the MPL and Streak LRMs up close.  This is when you play the damage game, attempting to cripple or kill anything that gets up in your face.  Streak LRMs let you do this for a pretty long time, especially after the five tons of mortar ammunition that you've been using until now.

This exactly. There's a time for the mortars, and a time for the LRMs, and while those times will rarely overlap, a skillfull commander can determine which time any given moment is, and use the Gurzil to best effect. Some people may not like this tank for the large BV they're paying for it relative to the lackof damage it puts otu, but considert this: Most of the time when people talk about something like this being wirth the BV, they're talking about the ability to do a lot of raw damage, removing an equivalent amount of BV from the enemy force quickly. That's not the Gurzil. The Gurzil pays that BV back in installements, and will never miss a payment. You play things right, a Gurzil will directly benefit you every single turn, even if any given turn's benefit is relatively small.
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False Son

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Re: Vehicle of 3 Weeks Ago: Gurzil Support Tank
« Reply #6 on: 29 April 2014, 16:17:16 »
Rules quibble: ferro-lamellor actually doesn't quite negate LB-X cluster. While it won't scratch the armor as such and find itself unable to inflict proper TACs, you still roll for motive system damage as normal (TacOps p. 280) -- meaning that the tank can still be immobilized by it and then pounded on with heavier weapons (or simply the same LB-X switching to standard rounds) to finish it off.

I didn't mention motive crits.  But, it could be clearer.

I like this one, the art is cool and the mix of weapons is fun, though I'm not really sure how to use it with the new Jade Falcon mechs that are mostly very jumpy and long ranged so these tanks might draw a lot of fire because they are the only thing with a decent chance of being hit. I'd be interested in any suggestions of how people use them.

Keeping distance, targeting set to long range, Streak LRM15s rolling turn after turn.  Or hide and wait for the enemy to try and corner your mechs, then smash the enemy when they get in close.  Though I think it is worth pointing out that the Falcons make mechs other than the Shrike, Gyrfalcon and Eyrie.  The Gurzil would at first glance be better paired to a Loki II, Thor II or Jupiter.
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Re: Vehicle of 3 Weeks Ago: Gurzil Support Tank
« Reply #7 on: 29 April 2014, 17:10:53 »
I didn't mention motive crits.  But, it could be clearer.

"Negating the always frustrating LBX cluster round certainly helps a combat vehicle". The main threat of that kind of ammunition is motive system hits; if some TACs also happen, that's certainly a pleasant bonus, but I very much use cluster on vehicles with an eye towards crippling their mobility first myself. And as I said, that part of the threat is the one ferro-lamellor actually doesn't negate at all, so...yeah.

No offense, I hope. :)

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Re: Vehicle of 3 Weeks Ago: Gurzil Support Tank
« Reply #8 on: 29 April 2014, 17:21:25 »
Quote from: False Son
Sarna claims the Eagle Craft Group built them on Ironhold, but I can't confirm that with my current level of interest.  Anyway, the Hachiman was not built in the Jade Falcon Occupation Zone after the Jihad.

False Son, where do you see it saying Eagle Group was involved making these Combat Vehicles?

The article on Sarna, doesn't say anything about the Eagle Group or doesn't mention them at all.
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False Son

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Re: Vehicle of 3 Weeks Ago: Gurzil Support Tank
« Reply #9 on: 29 April 2014, 18:17:47 »
No offense, I hope. :)

Fair enough.  I have to talk myself down from hyperbole when it comes to these articles, and it is a habit I should break in general.

False Son, where do you see it saying Eagle Group was involved making these Combat Vehicles?

The article on Sarna, doesn't say anything about the Eagle Group or doesn't mention them at all.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Eagle_Craft_Group

Says they were built on Ironhold.
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Re: Vehicle of 3 Weeks Ago: Gurzil Support Tank
« Reply #10 on: 29 April 2014, 18:39:51 »
Fair enough.  I have to talk myself down from hyperbole when it comes to these articles, and it is a habit I should break in general.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Eagle_Craft_Group

Says they were built on Ironhold.

That article didn't say anything about making the Gurzil either.  The Eagle Group was involved starting up clan production in the Inner Sphere was producing Jade Falcon's vehicles back in Clan space. I was properly involved with getting Trellwell into producing the Gurzil, but the article you sent me to doesn't mention Gurzil at all. 
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Re: Vehicle of 3 Weeks Ago: Gurzil Support Tank
« Reply #11 on: 29 April 2014, 19:30:52 »
You're reading it wrong. He's talking about ECG building the Hachiman.

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Re: Vehicle of 3 Weeks Ago: Gurzil Support Tank
« Reply #12 on: 29 April 2014, 23:06:29 »
The article on Sarna, doesn't say anything about the Eagle Group or doesn't mention them at all.

Please remember that Sarna is not a primary data source. Published BattleTech books and the MUL are primary data sources. Sarna is a fan driven wiki.
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Re: Vehicle of 3 Weeks Ago: Gurzil Support Tank
« Reply #13 on: 30 April 2014, 11:56:00 »
The Gurzil is an interesting take on what I consider an often neglected subgroup of FSVs: The "close fire support" platform. Two prime examples of this would be the Schrek PPC Carrier and DI Morgan. They excel in traditional fire support, but are capable of supporting the mobile elements at "danger close" distances (by FSV standards). The Streak LRMs are logical for such a unit (they also have the benefit of ammo conservation, since the unit carries less than the optimal warload for LRM-15s).


The addition of mech mortars is interesting. I find them useful for blooping shells on units obscured by terrain, while said Bad Guy is on the move. And, in most cases, I don't have to wait for the target to reappear in the Gurzil's LOS in order to attack. The AMS-proofed MM is a decent tactical support weapon for the current tabletop battlefield. It's just somewhat lacking when compared to the time-tested standard LRM system.


The choice of secondaries is a good one, with the MPLs being useful at keeping fast attack vehicle harassers honest, without the need of expending precious LRM Streak ammo.


Inevitably, the Gurzil will get compared to that Clantech staple of vehicular missile boats: The Hachiman. Which, in my opinion, is not an apt one. They are slightly different animals.


The Hachiman lends itself more toward the traditional ranged support that LRM boats are much loved for. Mostly because it doesn't have the durability of a unit, like the Gurzil, when facing the potential punishment that being closer to the action may entail. The secondary loadout is a little more flexible on the lighter vehicle, since not being closer to friendlies, it will have to rely on it's own weapons (and immediate team mates) alone to defend itself. At least, that's the way it works under my group's current "doctrines".


The Ferro Lamellor is a big bonus as far as I'm concerned. It allows for some peace of mind, when you have a gaming group full of asshats who like spamming TC warheads and AP rounds at "teh new shinies" just for the lulz.

Anyway, just a few thoughts on the Gurzil. Overall, it's not a bad package. It just lacks some of the generalist approach found in a lot of more conventional missile support vehicles.
« Last Edit: 30 April 2014, 11:59:23 by oldfart3025 »
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Re: Vehicle of 3 Weeks Ago: Gurzil Support Tank
« Reply #14 on: 30 April 2014, 12:24:31 »
The Gurzil is an interesting take on what I consider an often neglected subgroup of FSVs: The "close fire support" platform. Two prime examples of this would be the Schrek PPC Carrier and DI Morgan. They excel in traditional fire support, but are capable of supporting the mobile elements at "danger close" distances (by FSV standards). The Streak LRMs are logical for such a unit (they also have the benefit of ammo conservation, since the unit carries less than the optimal warload for LRM-15s).

There's something about the all PPC, all ERPPC loadout of the Schrek and DI Morgan that make me think of them as being more in line with a LRM Carrier than the Gurzil.  I mentioned the JES II and III because they are shining examples of missile boats, which are themselves a weapon platform that operates differently than Shreks or DI Morgans (the non-LRM versions) in that they can be used indirectly.  The Gurzil's SLRM15s cannot be used indirectly, nor can the MPLs.  The Mech Mortars have a limited supply of ammo.  So I tend to think of it as a missile tank that can't really be used as like a traditional missile tank to best effect.  Neither gunboat nor missileboat.


Quote
The addition of mech mortars is interesting. I find them useful for blooping shells on units obscured by terrain, while said Bad Guy is on the move. And, in most cases, I don't have to wait for the target to reappear in the Gurzil's LOS in order to attack. The AMS-proofed MM is a decent tactical support weapon for the current tabletop battlefield. It's just somewhat lacking when compared to the time-tested standard LRM system.

Clan LRMs are one of those weapon systems that is so good it begs to just be spammed.  I imagine it would frustrate some players to see something like a LRM Carrier and swapping the IS LRMs for Clan versions.  I'm glad that the Gurzil is an attempt to create a "reasonable" swing at the LRM game without copying Dezgra Inner Sphere concepts.  It is a missile tank, but different and unusual.  The Inner Sphere has tinkered with LRM pltforms long enough to get them wrong (Rhinos) until they finally got them right (JES II and II). 

Quote
Inevitably, the Gurzil will get compared to that Clantech staple of vehicular missile boats: The Hachiman. Which, in my opinion, is not an apt one. They are slightly different animals.

They are.  I mention the Hachiman as a way of saying the Falcons are not wholly unfamiliar with the concept of LRM tanks.  Even taking possession of THI and it's SturmFeur plant wasn't the first time they came into possession of a LRM tank.

Quote
The Hachiman lends itself more toward the traditional ranged support that LRM boats are much loved for. Mostly because it doesn't have the durability of a unit, like the Gurzil, when facing the potential punishment that being closer to the action may entail. The secondary loadout is a little more flexible on the lighter vehicle, since not being closer to friendlies, it will have to rely on it's own weapons (and immediate team mates) alone to defend itself. At least, that's the way it works under my group's current "doctrines".

The Hachiman and Gurzil are similar in that they both suffer the problem of being too heavily invested in non-IDF capabilities to really be attractive as IDF platforms.  They can work in that capacity, but the entry cost to do it is too high.  Better to use them as fire support units in the open.
« Last Edit: 30 April 2014, 13:50:54 by False Son »
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Re: Vehicle of 3 Weeks Ago: Gurzil Support Tank
« Reply #15 on: 30 April 2014, 22:04:08 »
I apologize for causing a trouble on the thread.  I had thought that False son may have mis-read Sarna.net's article on the Eagle Craft, those guys there try hard get it right. I didn't think that particular article had any problems with it.  I also want to say sorry to False Son, for distracting things from his review, which was good. 
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Re: Vehicle of 3 Weeks Ago: Gurzil Support Tank
« Reply #16 on: 30 April 2014, 22:22:10 »
I apologize for causing a trouble on the thread.  I had thought that False son may have mis-read Sarna.net's article on the Eagle Craft, those guys there try hard get it right. I didn't think that particular article had any problems with it.  I also want to say sorry to False Son, for distracting things from his review, which was good.

Thanks, Wrangler. And for the record, my statement on Sarna was a generic statement. I couldn't tell you if Sarna's Eagle Craft article is accurate or not. Due to the work I do, I stick with the primary sources.

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Re: Vehicle of 3 Weeks Ago: Gurzil Support Tank
« Reply #17 on: 01 May 2014, 20:03:44 »
I have yet to try out the Gurzil (and lots of other 3145 stuff as well) but generally speaking when it comes to fire support units there are two kinds. One, the traditional fire support platform spamming a particular weapon type and the other with more mixed weapons and ranges.

The first one is better when you have a large force in general. The number of units on the board make it easy to screen the support units which in turn will engage the enemy at their prefered range for most of the game and can influence that area of the map they choose to.
But the second one performs better in smaller engagements. As the circumstances can change very quickly (mostly in the form of a nasty hostile unit popping up) and you will most likely change positions more often than in set piece battles having different options is a big bonus.

In other words, when whole battallions meet I´d rather take Schreks, Jes and similar units, while in a skirmish of two lances on each side I´d rather have something like the Gurzil. It can easily switch between direct and indirect support, it can hold out in short ranged combat until help arrives and will almost never find itself in a situation in which it cannot contribute something.