Author Topic: BattleTech's Fusion Plants Aren't Any Such Thing  (Read 9797 times)

ColBosch

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BattleTech's Fusion Plants Aren't Any Such Thing
« on: 10 July 2014, 06:52:56 »
I was talking with some folks on another forum, and the topic of BattleTech's fusion plants and (especially) rockets came up. Namely, how unrealistically powerful and low-maintenance they are. Now this is fine, it's part of the setting. But it got me thinking, to the point that I actually came back here and started a new topic (which I will hopefully not come to regret).

Here's what we know: fusion plants were developed. Kearny and Fuchida discovered anomalies in their power outputs, and from there formulated the mathematics that would lead to Jump drives. After Jump drives were invented and perfected, fusion plants became even better. Now, real fusion plants would produce a great deal of energy, yes, but still require a decent amount of fuel (far less than other methods, but measurable, and often exotic). While the mechanics of Jumps are, of course, shrouded in technobabble (since the entire process is science fiction and relies on Hypothetical Future Math), it's still clear that there really isn't another dimension that can be traveled to, but instead a sort of mathematical shortcut that allows direct physical translation from one place to another. It's not Star Trek teleporters, that destroy and recreate you, it's actual travel, just cutting out all the empty in-between. The start and end places are even called "points," which is a mathematical ideal.

So here's what the thread title is all about: they're not really fusion power plants and rockets. Fusion is powerful, but nowhere near THAT powerful. Indeed, fusion rockets should be really slow, or more properly, accelerate at a lower rate - just for a very long time and very efficiently. The fusion process is just a catalyst (heh) for an honest-to-Cat zero point energy system...and nobody in-universe realizes this yet, or at least it's a well-kept secret. Any BattleTech "fusion" plant could produce unlimited energy instantly (which would be a VERY BAD IDEA), but they're actually limited by the amount of shielding you give them, and power plants capable of handling cosmic levels of energy would be prohibitively large and expensive. A 400-rated engine produces 40 times as much power as a 10-rated, but weighs over a hundred times as much - which is another argument against them being true fusion, as that would be nonsensical. Real fusion would be more efficient the larger you got, until you had something made almost entirely of hydrogen and helium producing as much energy as the sun. Which would be a sun.

There you go. The biggest secret in BattleTech revealed: it's a post-scarcity economy, and this fact has been hidden away. I like to think that Jerome Blake made the connection while ill, and Toyama straight-up murdered him to bury this secret as deeply as he could. Layers upon layers - pseudo-mysticism, hidden councils, hidden worlds, destabilization campaigns, the deliberate culling of brilliant researchers...and perhaps a few crazies here and there who started poking around with an insane, impossible theory abandoned in the early 21st Century. Stone sees is as some sort Blakist super-shield, the Coyotes managed to use it as armor on a WarShip, and Apollyon was arrogant enough to weaponize it (we've still not seen stats for his personal 'Mech), but they still didn't know just what they were dealing with. The Master knew, and that's why he sent the core of the Word of Blake out of known space. He was evil and power-mad, but he would've ushered in a new Golden Age for mankind (under an iron boot), but in a way he was right. It's all too powerful for the Successor Lords and Clan Khans to be trusted with it.

(If this is The Secret, rest assured there was no leak from the developers; as I said, I came up with this on my own. If it's not, good luck coming up with something better. ;) )
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Lysenko

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Re: BattleTech's Fusion Plants Aren't Any Such Thing
« Reply #1 on: 10 July 2014, 08:00:44 »
I am Death Commando Major Anton M. Lysenko, and I approve of this-- ~urk~

GhostCat

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Re: BattleTech's Fusion Plants Aren't Any Such Thing
« Reply #2 on: 10 July 2014, 08:19:17 »
It's not really 'Magic' or Alchemy that transforms mud into Gold.  Not that anyone would ever really need that much Gold. 

What the average technicians know is that Fusion Power Generates Energy.  There are a lot of different kinds of energy, but the most commonly used and measured type is Electrical.  The rest is pretty much wasted as Heat and Light. 

With the use of generators, storage cells, and a self contained hydrodynamic system of heat sinks and condensers, Fusion Power can be the ultimate goal Steampunk Sparks everywhere.  We might even invoke the great name of Heterodyne and retcon our Harmonious Mecha as Clanks.

um well, Alternate Universes are just that cool when players get creative with them.  Even the Canon Verse still keeps giving us new things to play with. 

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cray

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Re: BattleTech's Fusion Plants Aren't Any Such Thing
« Reply #3 on: 10 July 2014, 17:02:38 »
The "magical" performance of BT fusion rockets is a regular topic for discussion on these forums, especially the aerospace forum. With numbers in watts and mass-to-energy conversion ratios, even.

As for the capacity of BT industry and being a post-scarcity economy, its potential has been discussed in connection to the terraforming of Venus and Mars.

Nothing secret. This has all been discussed on these very forums.
« Last Edit: 10 July 2014, 17:04:12 by cray »
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Giovanni Blasini

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Re: BattleTech's Fusion Plants Aren't Any Such Thing
« Reply #4 on: 10 July 2014, 17:20:04 »
Zero point energy has been one of my leading candidates on how large spacecraft have specific impulses that appear superluminal before factoring in relativity, and how they seem to produce more energy than proton chain fusion could explain.
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: BattleTech's Fusion Plants Aren't Any Such Thing
« Reply #5 on: 10 July 2014, 17:42:40 »
Eh, all fusion engines should just be made by Fiat.
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Re: BattleTech's Fusion Plants Aren't Any Such Thing
« Reply #6 on: 10 July 2014, 17:55:29 »
I prefer to posit that the physical laws of the BT universe do not quite conform with those of the Real World(TM Bill Gates) we live in.

For example, without quantum behaviour, no solid-state transistors. BT's massive targetting computers are massive because they use vacuum tubes. Lots and lots of vacuum tubes.

Certainly, a conspiracy to force pre-industrial economics onto a post-scarcity society could easily produce economic systems as screwed as FASA echognomics. However, I propose my counter-theory - that there are in the Inner Sphere 9 catgirls for every one human. This explains why planets can only maintain small military outputs - too much energy spent on taking care of the catgirls. They're never mentioned in canon because, at some level, everyone realises they're slightly ashamed of the whole thing.

W.
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SteelRaven

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Re: BattleTech's Fusion Plants Aren't Any Such Thing
« Reply #7 on: 10 July 2014, 18:05:33 »
We already know all Fusion Plants are originally made by Mr Fusion and use garbage for fuel ;D

side rant:
You know what drives me nuts, people are so critical of fusion plants and armor in BT but blindly accept the Warp Drives and Force Fields in ST and Light sabers in SW (NASA made a mock up of a Warp Drive ship for crying out load) SciFi is loaded with McGuffins, otherwise the whole story would never exist outside of our solar system.
 
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Re: BattleTech's Fusion Plants Aren't Any Such Thing
« Reply #8 on: 10 July 2014, 20:22:35 »
side rant:
You know what drives me nuts, people are so critical of fusion plants and armor in BT but blindly accept the Warp Drives and Force Fields in ST and Light sabers in SW

But those things are real.  Because they have movies.

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ColBosch

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Re: BattleTech's Fusion Plants Aren't Any Such Thing
« Reply #9 on: 10 July 2014, 22:26:27 »
The "magical" performance of BT fusion rockets is a regular topic for discussion on these forums, especially the aerospace forum. With numbers in watts and mass-to-energy conversion ratios, even.

As for the capacity of BT industry and being a post-scarcity economy, its potential has been discussed in connection to the terraforming of Venus and Mars.

Nothing secret. This has all been discussed on these very forums.

Oh come on, we all know you guys are masters of the retcon. You've probably seeded the forums with post-dated, um, posts as soon as you discovered that the secret was out! I'm onto you!

(Tongue very much in cheek.)
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ColBosch

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Re: BattleTech's Fusion Plants Aren't Any Such Thing
« Reply #10 on: 10 July 2014, 22:29:41 »
However, I propose my counter-theory - that there are in the Inner Sphere 9 catgirls for every one human. This explains why planets can only maintain small military outputs - too much energy spent on taking care of the catgirls. They're never mentioned in canon because, at some level, everyone realises they're slightly ashamed of the whole thing.

Isn't that just a variation on the theory that the two main industries in the Inner Sphere are hole-digging and hole-filling?

But yeah, I hadn't followed through to FASAnomics. Man, it works for everything! Well, aside from totally alienating the entire fanbase...so win all around!
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Tyler Jorgensson

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Re: BattleTech's Fusion Plants Aren't Any Such Thing
« Reply #11 on: 11 July 2014, 00:15:23 »
We already know all Fusion Plants are originally made by Mr Fusion and use garbage for fuel ;D

side rant:
You know what drives me nuts, people are so critical of fusion plants and armor in BT but blindly accept the Warp Drives and Force Fields in ST and Light sabers in SW (NASA made a mock up of a Warp Drive ship for crying out load) SciFi is loaded with McGuffins, otherwise the whole story would never exist outside of our solar system.

How dare you criticize the all powerful and great beflanneled George Lucas.... I'm sorry I can't go on dying of laughter here...

On the matter of this thread: most likely when written fusion reaction was just the bra possible fit for such large demands of power that they needed in such a fictional universe

All sci-fi is based on fictional science. Getting to far into it just makes wads explode. Just accept the fact your holding a plasma sword  battling aliens on a planet with seven moons and a hydrogen based atmosphere... In 1862 while the Union Army invades theMArtian version of Gettysburg defend by a BAttalion of Stingers

chanman

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Re: BattleTech's Fusion Plants Aren't Any Such Thing
« Reply #12 on: 11 July 2014, 01:05:46 »
I prefer to posit that the physical laws of the BT universe do not quite conform with those of the Real World(TM Bill Gates) we live in.

For example, without quantum behaviour, no solid-state transistors. BT's massive targetting computers are massive because they use vacuum tubes. Lots and lots of vacuum tubes.

Certainly, a conspiracy to force pre-industrial economics onto a post-scarcity society could easily produce economic systems as screwed as FASA echognomics. However, I propose my counter-theory - that there are in the Inner Sphere 9 catgirls for every one human. This explains why planets can only maintain small military outputs - too much energy spent on taking care of the catgirls. They're never mentioned in canon because, at some level, everyone realises they're slightly ashamed of the whole thing.

W.

That defies the low maintenance personnel requirements of Battletech anything - with vacuum tubes, you'll need multiples more crew and techs to constantly replace them. Unless we're talking about nigh-indestructible vacuum tubes made of single pieces of diamond or some such. Plus, there seems to be enough portable electronic devices to require IC.


Isn't that just a variation on the theory that the two main industries in the Inner Sphere are hole-digging and hole-filling?


Hey, that's me! You can actually find the repost on this iteration of the boards in the link in my sig to the Lunatic Fringe. (Has it already been nearly 7 years since I wrote that?!?!)

worktroll

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Re: BattleTech's Fusion Plants Aren't Any Such Thing
« Reply #13 on: 11 July 2014, 01:19:13 »
On the matter of this thread: most likely when written fusion reaction was just the bra possible fit for such large demands of power that they needed in such a fictional universe

Emphasis added ... so now we know why the MechWarriors all wear lycra. They get the compression for fusion from all that stretchy goodness ...

(gotta love phone autocorrect ... not)
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

ColBosch

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Re: BattleTech's Fusion Plants Aren't Any Such Thing
« Reply #14 on: 11 July 2014, 12:43:30 »
The more I look at BattleTech, the more I think I'm going to have to rebut the claims that it's a "hard" sci-fi anything (as if the giant walking tanks weren't enough). Just no part of it stands up to any scrutiny. So, it's cool, it's cinematic sci-fi. I can grok it.

You know what drives me nuts, people are so critical of fusion plants and armor in BT but blindly accept the Warp Drives and Force Fields in ST and Light sabers in SW (NASA made a mock up of a Warp Drive ship for crying out load) SciFi is loaded with McGuffins, otherwise the whole story would never exist outside of our solar system.

Sorry, missed this: I've grown to detest Star Wars, and I always recognized that Star Trek is just "Wagon Train in space" and thus has the technology required to make the show work. But I'd like to clarify that these are mostly technobabble, not MacGuffins. A MacGuffin is something that exists solely to advance the plot: the classic example is the Maltese Falcon, which has no role beyond that everyone wants it.
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Nerroth

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Re: BattleTech's Fusion Plants Aren't Any Such Thing
« Reply #15 on: 11 July 2014, 12:53:22 »
Zero point energy has been one of my leading candidates on how large spacecraft have specific impulses that appear superluminal before factoring in relativity, and how they seem to produce more energy than proton chain fusion could explain.

So would that be a Zed-PM or a Zee-PM?

cray

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Re: BattleTech's Fusion Plants Aren't Any Such Thing
« Reply #16 on: 11 July 2014, 16:37:14 »
Just no part of it stands up to any scrutiny.

Except for the extensive adherence to Newtonian mechanics. I was always quite happy with its (advanced) space movement rules where they stick to Newtonian movement, and there's relatively low technobabble in its planetology, biology, and physics that don't directly contradict foundation concepts like BattleMechs.
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**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

massey

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Re: BattleTech's Fusion Plants Aren't Any Such Thing
« Reply #17 on: 12 July 2014, 08:46:47 »
Fusion plants?  How much do you have to water them?

Tyler Jorgensson

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Re: BattleTech's Fusion Plants Aren't Any Such Thing
« Reply #18 on: 12 July 2014, 11:36:05 »
Emphasis added ... so now we know why the MechWarriors all wear lycra. They get the compression for fusion from all that stretchy goodness ...

(gotta love phone autocorrect ... not)

Stupid phone keyboard

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Re: BattleTech's Fusion Plants Aren't Any Such Thing
« Reply #19 on: 13 July 2014, 07:47:05 »
I guess that a Fusion reactor in B-tech is a small kind of what we'd call Tokomak reactor.  And whilst fusion produces massive amounts of energy you could I guess handwave away the whole 'more power = larger size' thing with a bit of creative thinking.  A small engine, say a 10 rated Fusion engine has a very small magnetic ring, enough to produce X amount of power (I'm saying this as I have NO idea how fusion reactors work save watching various space programems.)

But due to the size of its magnetic bottle it can't produce enough plasma to create more than that.  To create more power the engine and its magnetic bottle must be scaled up so it can contain more plasma and fuse at a greater rate, this is what leads to ballooning power plant weight.

Just my thoughts on it.
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Auren

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Re: BattleTech's Fusion Plants Aren't Any Such Thing
« Reply #20 on: 13 July 2014, 15:02:57 »
I always assumed that a fusion plant's weight was just the monster amounts of ragnarok proofing. Dropships produce their own parts by scooping particulates from space and running them through the reactor to get heavier elements. From there, fabricators take over and create new parts, dropping them on hapless engineers who are confused by 'What's this thinger doin?'

ColBosch

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Re: BattleTech's Fusion Plants Aren't Any Such Thing
« Reply #21 on: 13 July 2014, 21:10:05 »
I always assumed that a fusion plant's weight was just the monster amounts of ragnarok proofing. Dropships produce their own parts by scooping particulates from space and running them through the reactor to get heavier elements. From there, fabricators take over and create new parts, dropping them on hapless engineers who are confused by 'What's this thinger doin?'

Oh man, now I'm picturing BT spacecraft as von Neumann machines...complete with awkward childbirths, right out the nozzles.

I don't think I can explain that leap of logic.
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: BattleTech's Fusion Plants Aren't Any Such Thing
« Reply #22 on: 13 July 2014, 23:37:03 »
Oh man, now I'm picturing BT spacecraft as von Neumann machines...complete with awkward childbirths, right out the nozzles.

I don't think I can explain that leap of logic.
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A. Lurker

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Re: BattleTech's Fusion Plants Aren't Any Such Thing
« Reply #23 on: 15 July 2014, 03:18:28 »
As far as I'm concerned, BattleTech fusion engines simply take advantage of the fact that they exist in a fictional universe by tapping into the universal background fiat of their setting. Any other "in-universe" explanation is ultimately just another handwave. ;)

(Come to think of it, maybe that's the secret the few characters who are in on it are so desperate to not let out. The realization that you're in a very real, visceral way not even real certainly has the potential to be a mind- and gut-twister of Lovecraftian proportions. Especially if you're being written that way...)

ColBosch

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Re: BattleTech's Fusion Plants Aren't Any Such Thing
« Reply #24 on: 15 July 2014, 03:22:40 »
(Come to think of it, maybe that's the secret the few characters who are in on it are so desperate to not let out. The realization that you're in a very real, visceral way not even real certainly has the potential to be a mind- and gut-twister of Lovecraftian proportions. Especially if you're being written that way...)

Yeah, but there's no way to handle it in fiction without coming across as really stupid or mind-blastingly pretentious. :D
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A. Lurker

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Re: BattleTech's Fusion Plants Aren't Any Such Thing
« Reply #25 on: 15 July 2014, 03:33:37 »
Yeah, but there's no way to handle it in fiction without coming across as really stupid or mind-blastingly pretentious. :D

Well, yeah.

...and there's your reason why the fiction never actually gets around to, you know, mentioning it right there. :D

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Re: BattleTech's Fusion Plants Aren't Any Such Thing
« Reply #26 on: 15 July 2014, 09:35:41 »
Yeah, but there's no way to handle it in fiction without coming across as really stupid or mind-blastingly pretentious. :D

Only if the writers insist on taking it seriously. 8)
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ColBosch

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Re: BattleTech's Fusion Plants Aren't Any Such Thing
« Reply #27 on: 15 July 2014, 14:22:01 »
Only if the writers insist on taking it seriously. 8)

Typically, that's the "stupid" bit.
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Re: BattleTech's Fusion Plants Aren't Any Such Thing
« Reply #28 on: 15 July 2014, 15:19:45 »
Thanks ColBosch - I like the idea very much and would gladly take it for personal use with Your permission. ;)

ColBosch

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Re: BattleTech's Fusion Plants Aren't Any Such Thing
« Reply #29 on: 15 July 2014, 19:12:50 »
Thanks ColBosch - I like the idea very much and would gladly take it for personal use with Your permission. ;)

NO. All my posts are copyrighted and trademarked and I sent them to myself. >:(

...kidding. Please, enjoy!
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