Personal Combat- love it? Hate it? Tips?

[StuartYee]

When reading the ATOW rules for personal combat, the rules made sense and I liked the system...in theory.

In practice, I find them to be cumbersome, but maybe it's because I'm still new to it.

It seems to me, personal combat goes something like this:

Roll initiative
Initiative Winner declares actions (two automatic rifle attacks)
Tally dice roll modifiers (skill level, movement, target condition, link modifiers, etc...)
Roll dice
Find MoS or MoF
Calculate damage (base damage + MoS/4, etc.)
Apply damage to target (standard damage and fatigue)
Mark target as stunned
Mark off ammo
Repeat for second attack
Repeat all steps for all other characters

Does that feel cumbersome, or does it get smoother with more practice?

Any house rules or tips on making it run even smoother?

[Maelwys]

Looks about right. The only thing to really speed things up is when you have the damage figured out instead of having to check each time, and memorizing the modifiers. Unfortunately, beyond that, I'm not really sure where to add in any shortcuts.

[Acolyte]

One way to speed things up is to add all the modifiers that usually apply (Skill and Links mostly) and have that listed on the character sheet. Or, you can go even farther by subtracting the skill and links from the TN of the skill. Then you just add all the other modifiers to the die roll and compare to the adjusted TN. Works well for players and removes a set of modifiers from the equation.

One other thing is something I do for pretty much every game system - The File of Thugs! Work out 5 or 6 generic thug types for those improptu bar brawls and gunfights. Mix and match so thug A is type 3, ect. Do the same for for higher levels of Thugs for the harder fights. Your basically making a smallish Monster Manual, but for AToW. If you have to make up a bad guy on the fly, keep 'em after the fight and add 'em to the file.

Other than that, have an initiative sheet. Put a column for each combatant that you're running and put the initiative rolled on the next line under. When the combatant acts, add the movement that they did to the line. One less modifier to remember - it's on the page. Next round, use the next line.

In general, though, every bit of math done before the game is math not done during game which will speed up play.

   - Shane

[StuartYee]

Thanks for the tips guys.

I think I'll need to do a better job at getting my players to understand how to calculate their modifiers and damage.

I do like the idea of a "Thug Manual"!

I have to say, the ATOW NPC section is a bit weak.

Maybe I'll put together a fan made volume.

[hive_angel]

I am really trying to get the combat rules down to an understanding, but for some reason after initiative my mind goes  :D .

I am following your initial idea as a path, have you by chance refined your path any. I think its all the mods here and there and all the pages I need to look at in order to get it down.

[StuartYee]

I am really trying to get the combat rules down to an understanding, but for some reason after initiative my mind goes  :D .

I am following your initial idea as a path, have you by chance refined your path any. I think its all the mods here and there and all the pages I need to look at in order to get it down.

I have not refined it very much, but as a GM I've done the following to try and get by:

*I try to limit most personal encounter combat to non-lethal brawling as it's the easiest (for me) version of personal combat to deal with. It only does fatigue damage and each characters' damage is set (1 damage for every 4 points of STR rnd up, plus the cumulative MoS rounded down). I do hesitate a bit because the defender gets an automatic defense roll and have to remember the different results. As GM, sometimes I arbitrarily say an NPC is knocked out, especially if the player gives me an elaborate cinematic description as to how they're attacking the NPC - "I jump up executing a double roundhouse kick ending with a chop to the throat..."

*As far as Standard Damage ranged combat, I start out with unarmored NPCs so that I don't have to deal with armor adjustments.

*After a few sessions, it's the players' responsibility to understand how damage works. If they're wearing armor and forget how to adjust damage based on armor, too bad for them.

*Players have Standard AND Fatigue damage. Since Standard Damage is dealt at a faster rate than Fatigue in Standard Combat, there's very little reason to keep track of Fatigue for NPCs. Furthermore, I nerf their Standard Damage capacity if the fight seems to be going on too long.

*Since characters are either Stunned or Not Stunned, and Unconscious or Conscious, it's useful to use markers to place on minis if you're using those.

*Yeah, 25mm or 28mm minis are pretty useful. IWM has a limited set of Battletroops 25mm scale minis, 25mm Mechwarrior (OOP) minis can be had if you're patient, or use generic stuff you find. I'm nit picky so I don't like to mix 28mm with my 25s, but that's just me.

*As last a resort, I stick mainly to Tactical Scale combat and use TW, TacOps, StratOps and a sprinkling of ATOW rules where appropriate.

*As I'm still very far from being an expert, generally I try to stick with one subtype of combat in a given scenario, i.e., fist fight, guns, guns and armor, or tactical.

I hope at least some of that helps

[hive_angel]

I agree with a lot of you points made and it helps a ton.

Doing some more reading. I am only at the non-hit location rules as hit location rules are more deadly. With using non-hit location rules I only need to deal with one piece of armor as everything hits center mass. Down the line things can change.

Starting out with unarmored NPCs is a good point along with seperating melee and ranged. I am pulling everything down to the same armor level and weapon type as well.

I am looking into miniatures as well and agree counters helps remind players even if a sheet is marked for something.

When you refer to tactical scale what do you mean?

Currently myself I use ATOW for RPG skills and rolls, ATOW non-hit location for combat and regular initiative, ATOW mech skills converted to BT for BT combat sessions, Strat OPs for maintenance and repair of equipment and so forth.

Another question if I may. How do you handle ballistic/laser weapons randomly against the various armors which protect against either or both? Do you leave it to players/NPCs to deal with it if their armor is only good for this or that or do you have all your players using AB/FLAK armor? This has been puzzling me a bit as most AB?FLAK and the FWL standard suit is hella heavy.

[StuartYee]

When you refer to tactical scale what do you mean?

Tactical Scale is the ATOW game term for anything involving Vehicles and larger including 'Mechs, ASFs, dropships, etc.

The ATOW rule section for Tactical Combat is primarily for situations in which any of the characters (usually PCs) are on foot and are up against vehicles and mechs. If everyone is in a mech or vehicle (or can be organized into platoons) then I find it's easiest to simply use TW rules to resolve the engagement.

Another question if I may. How do you handle ballistic/laser weapons randomly against the various armors which protect against either or both? Do you leave it to players/NPCs to deal with it if their armor is only good for this or that or do you have all your players using AB/FLAK armor? This has been puzzling me a bit as most AB?FLAK and the FWL standard suit is hella heavy.

I'll be honest and say this is something I've tried to avoid!

If I understand your question correctly, the armor rules already have different ratings depending upon the type of damage. The notation is listed in the order of BAR (M/B/E/X)- M = Melee, B = Ballistic, E = Energy, X = Explosive.

So:
Flak 1/5/1/3
Ablative 3/1/6/1
Ablative/Flak 2/4/5/2

Meaning if an NPC hits with an Auto Pistol (Ballistic) 3B/4,

Against Flak - higher BAR (5 against ballistic), reduces the damage to 1B/2 and deals 2 Standard Damage to the character (plus MoS bonuses)

Against Ablative - lower BAR (1 against ballistic), pistol does full damage of 4 (plus MoS bonuses)

Against Ablative/Flak - higher BAR (4 against ballistic) damage reduced to 2B/3 and does 3 plus MoS Bonus

But if the NPC had a Laser Pistol (4E/3)

Flak armor: AP of 4E greater than BAR (for Energy) of 1, 3 damage plus MoS done to character

Ablative: BAR of 6 is greater than 4E, so damage reduced to 2E/1, 1 damage to character

Ablative/Flak: BAR of 5 reduces damage to 3E/2, so 2 damage done to character.

Now I'm hoping I'm answering your question, but firstly it's not exactly random, it depends on what kind of weapon is being fired, and what type of armor the character has. As you can see, in all scenarios the character ALWAYS receives some damage, but essentially the Flak is useless against most energy weapons, and Ablative is useless against most ballistic weapons, the Abl/Flak armor provides some protection against both, but not as much as an armor type specifically designed to protect against one damage type or another.

Also, ideally the Players will know what they have and how the damage works. As the GM, I really only want to say, "Your character takes 4E/3 damage" and the player works out the rest.

Currently my players are all mechwarriors, and only typically wear the helmet, shorts and boots and cooling vest which don't protect very well (that is to say, most weapons' AP is greater than the Boot/Vest/Helmet's BAR). Given the delicate nature of the helmet and vest, they don't typically venture out of their mechs into combat if they can help it. When not in their mechs, they don't typically don armor for regular encounters.

As far as the far as the Ablative/Flak armor being heavy (as well as very expensive), that makes sense as you can see as it does tend to do well against both types of damage. A Flak vest is only as good as a cotton t-shirt against a Laser Rifle.

I hope that clarifies.

I guess in summary:
*Make sure the players know the rules and how to work out how their armor modifies damage
*Keep track of MoS so you know if your weapon does more damage.

[hive_angel]

First

"StuartYee"

Much Explain
Much Knowledge

"hive-angel"

Much Learn
Much Tahnkful

Much happy trees planted.

I think I grasp armor good now. I think it is safer to have characters run around in ABFLAK armor for dual B/E protection. I have running some mock dice rolls using the squad record sheet and practicing combat resolution and it helps. I do find if a character is caught being shot with a weapon without proper protection versus the weapon type it can easily spell doom and shotguns are plain nasty.

I have thought about how to challenge players in a non armored fashion, but being unarmed can spell death to. However page 192 in ATWO rules for lethality reduction kind of give me ideas. Like more BOD which might not be all too helpful, but converting any damage leftover after being stopped by armor to fatigue makes sense. This way characters simply pass out safely and not have to fear dying.

Reason being one character has a BOD of 3 and it doesn't last long at all.

[Onirim]

I like the personal combat rules, because personal combat is not common for me (it's really dangerous), so it must be precise and potentially deadly.

I wrote "potentially" because I've done one change in the personal combat system : When a character drop at 0 Standart HP, he's not dead, only dying. In general, a successful first aid test is OK for saving it. I don't like to kill my player characters too often, it doesn't make sense for me, in a roleplaying game. But the player must be terrified by a wound, it's cool for the mood ^^

[guardiandashi]

if the big complaint is the cost of "armor" then one "fix" might be to modify the equipped trait a little bit.

as is the equipped trait only gives access to gear IE equipped:
0 D  B  B
1 D  B  C
2 D  C  C

etc.

whereas wealth gives:
0 1000
1 2500
2 5000
3 10000
6 100000
etc.

what if you gave equipped a small amount of "dedicated gear money" although looking at it unless you get into really exotic things like "kits" most armor is actually pretty cheap
the flack suit (all but head) is only 150 cbills ablative is a lot more of course 1000 cbills for the suit
whereas the abl/flack is 800

so if you did add a "gear money" aspect to equipped I would probably use something like the "extra income" table column as most chars can get a basic "kit" of gear for around 500-1000 ish unless they start getting into exotic things like laser weapons heavy weapons etc.