State of Battle Armor in the Inner Sphere: 3145

[MarauderD]

The Lyrans have the most "assaulty" feeling armor to me in the Fenrir II. 18 points of armor and 3 ground movement points are pretty insane. Too bad 1 ML is kind of "average" in the firepower department as of 3145.

I think the FWLM has a nice group of battlearmor. The Achileus is still a gorgeous light suit and the Kopis is a mech eater. I also like the Reactive armor on the Xiphos (sp?). One of the few suits that doesn't evaporate when the artillery shells start dropping.

[False Son]

The Lyrans have the most "assaulty" feeling armor to me in the Fenrir II. 18 points of armor and 3 ground movement points are pretty insane. Too bad 1 ML is kind of "average" in the firepower department as of 3145.

You can do a great deal with advanced armor and ground only movement.  The medium laser may not be all too impressive, but the other loadouts are certainly scary.  The AI version, for example, should be avoided by infantry of all kinds, armored or otherwise, at all costs.  I'm personally a huge fan of the SRM version, as well.  Faster than the Grenadier and harder hitting, with less ammo endurance. 

I think the FWLM has a nice group of battlearmor. The Achileus is still a gorgeous light suit and the Kopis is a mech eater. I also like the Reactive armor on the Xiphos (sp?). One of the few suits that doesn't evaporate when the artillery shells start dropping.

Their previous entries were all really good.  Thanks to the return of Irian, they still are.  It's the Leonidas and Xiphos i'm not crazy about.  Neither one really pops out to me.  The Xiphos being able to survive a direct hit from a Long Tom just doesn't impress me when it has such low firepower.  If it wasn't and assault, that would be really interesting.  But, no.  It requires transport.  If i'm going to need to take a transport to make it anything more than a glorified spotter it should be able to kick out more damage.

[Phobos]

It is awesome.  New ideas and new technologies makes this the most interesting era for BA yet.

The RAF.  They lost a good thing in Irian, though.  The Quirinus, Simian and Taranis are all pretty swank.  But, let's not forget they have Purifiers and Angeronas to fall back on.  Somewhere there is also the Purifier (Terra) factory making a few suits for the RAF Special Forces.  I haven't had a chance to use the Centaur yet, and the value of BA artillery doesn't jump out at me.  But, it can mechanize and provide close in direct fire artillery on the cheap.  The emphasis seems to be on flexibility from what I can tell.  As a fan of that perspective I dig the RAF suits.

Close second would be the DCMS.  The selection of armor is amazing.  The use of reflective armor is really powerful when the clans and clan laser using AFFS are your primary enemies.  They have mostly abandoned the assault BA concept and stuck with lighter suits.  Even the Zou, which is a pocket assault is meant to mechanize.  Seeing the DCMS's traditional emphasis on speed expressed in their armor philosophy is very satisfying.  They still have the Void, which is one of the most powerful BA ever built by the Inner Sphere, and the Raiden AI and Raiden II are good upgrades.

The AFFS.  They peaked with the Grenadier.  The Sea Fox and Fusilier are interesting, which is always an appreciated quality.  But, overall, yeah, I see them losing their edge.  The Infiltrator MkII hasn't aged very well, for that matter.

Kisho or Quirnus.  They both fall squarely into the interesting category while still being powerful.

The Cuchulain.  It isn't terrible, but the perception is that it is the greatest thing ever.

I'll tell you what is the most underrated these days: the Sloth.  It just keeps getting better and better.

I guess so.  But, to me, it is just an improvement over what came before.  It doesn't even do anything unique.  The old Trinity suits could at least claim to be MRR touting 3 ground MP city fighters.  The Amazon is a slight improvement over the IS Standard with LRR.  The biggest bonus, however, is having an arm mounted weapon in the offhand chance you want to swarm something.  It's good, but I don't know... not all that impressive.

Yeah, that's not a bad suit.  It and the Phalanx got a big hand up with their weapon changes.

It reminds me of a Fenrir 1.5 for some reason.


Only the FWLM and AFFS fall into meh territory for me.  All other players have a really impressive stable of battle armors.  If we want to talk about the clans, who is using the Elemental II?  They pretty much wins hands down thanks to the power of the BA myomer booster.  After that, the Falcons, because the Ironhold is patently ridiculous.

I agree with most of your points. RAF is the clear winner as it gets access to the most munchy stuff also in the BA department...
Out of all the canon suits, the Taranis is probably the most optimized.

I cannot agree on your judgement of the Chuchu and the DCMS BAs.
If it weren't for the Laser Reflective armor, I would actually consider them utterly useless. The armament is completely anemic and far from being optimized.
The Chuhu is absolutely great. It only has one flaw and that is the lack of Magnetic Clamps and a Firedrake instead of that more or less useless 11th point of armor. But 11 points of Improved Stealth armor and DWP to make the best of the armament (a freaking ER Medium Pulse times 4/5 for crying out loud!). If it had higher mobility and more versatility as suggested above, it would be probably the best canon Battle armor ever conceived when it comes to fighting Mechs (but also not bad at fighting other BA due to the range, dmg and better to hit numbers). It is also a very good bodyguard unit, although as I said. With the suggested changes, it could be the perfect bodyguard unit.
Speaking of Lyran BAs... the Fenrir II is pretty good and a logical evolution of the rather subpar predecessor. But when you think of it, it is also not making the most of it potential. If it had used 15 armor instead of 17, one could have done even more with the turret. Also I'm really missing a variant with 1 or even 2 King David GR.
Speaking of which (again), I fully agree on your verdict of the Sloth. The Huntsman variant is similar to what I always imagined it could be. 2 King Davids with Improved Stealth Armor and Mechanical Jump Booster? Surely nothing to sneeze at, albeit at the price of not having much in common with the original. Probably the best counter to those nasty Ironholds the Lyrans are facing, I presume.
The new Gray Death BAs are pretty much useless in my mind, due to trying to fill too many roles without proper modular armament. Speciality beats flexibility 8/10 times, I'd say. The Gray Death Heavy in turn is using tech that is simply too outdated to be competitive.
Overall, I'd put the Lyrans at second or third (behind the Capellans).
FWL BAs seem okay, but leave me somewhat unimpressed and uninspired.
Clear last are the FedSuns. They still got the fancy Grenadier and Hauberk suits, but the new stuff? What the heck? Even the new assault is not exactly a good idea, I think. An assault BA is an assault BA is an assault BA is an assault BA and not a medium... That's all there is to say. The Sniper is pretty good for a PAL suit. The Sea Fox is a highly specialized suit. Not much more to say.
So they still rely on the Grenadiers and Hauberks, which lost a lot of their magic come 3145.

[Jellico]

Just saying all the reactive, reflective or stealth armours mean little when a traditional missile boat starts unleashing the infernos.

[sillybrit]

The Chuhu is absolutely great. It only has one flaw and that is the lack of Magnetic Clamps and a Firedrake instead of that more or less useless 11th point of armor. But 11 points of Improved Stealth armor and DWP to make the best of the armament (a freaking ER Medium Pulse times 4/5 for crying out loud!). If it had higher mobility and more versatility as suggested above, it would be probably the best canon Battle armor ever conceived when it comes to fighting Mechs (but also not bad at fighting other BA due to the range, dmg and better to hit numbers). It is also a very good bodyguard unit, although as I said. With the suggested changes, it could be the perfect bodyguard unit.

Removing the 11th point of armor would gain you 35kg. Mag Clamps are 30kg and Firedrakes are 50kg, so at best you're getting the former only. As a Clan design, intended for forces with a relatively high number of OmniMechs compared to IS forces, some might prefer the extra armor to the Clamps.

If it had higher mobility, you'd be reducing the armor even further and/or downgrading the main gun, as it lacks the mass otherwise.

The new Gray Death BAs are pretty much useless in my mind, due to trying to fill too many roles without proper modular armament. Speciality beats flexibility 8/10 times, I'd say.

Confused here. You're saying that the GD suits lack "proper modular armament", which from that wording suggests that you're promoting the benefits of modularity, but then your next sentence contradicts that.

Or are you saying that what modular armament they have isn't ideal and they could do with better (which generally means heavier and bulkier) weapon choices? If so, what will be reduced to provide the mass? Armor, mobility or both?

As for speciality beating flexibility, then often, yes... except when you bring the wrong specialist to the fight. At least with units with modular configurations, a unit might have time for a quick reconfiguration by the unit techs, but for units with fixed equipment, then you're waiting for redeployment from other locations, perhaps even from off-world.

[sillybrit]

Just saying all the reactive, reflective or stealth armours mean little when a traditional missile boat starts unleashing the infernos.

Although being stealthy can stop the Infernos from hitting you in the first place. Unless it actually is Stealth armor and the missile boat is replaced by SRM infantry, in which case you're SOL.

[Phobos]

Removing the 11th point of armor would gain you 35kg. Mag Clamps are 30kg and Firedrakes are 50kg, so at best you're getting the former only. As a Clan design, intended for forces with a relatively high number of OmniMechs compared to IS forces, some might prefer the extra armor to the Clamps.

Yeah, blame me for remembering incorrectly the Cuchu's amount of armor. It's 12 and not 11. So if you use a DWP Firedrake instead of a regular one, it works out as stated ;)

[Phobos]

Confused here. You're saying that the GD suits lack "proper modular armament", which from that wording suggests that you're promoting the benefits of modularity, but then your next sentence contradicts that.

Or are you saying that what modular armament they have isn't ideal and they could do with better (which generally means heavier and bulkier) weapon choices? If so, what will be reduced to provide the mass? Armor, mobility or both?

As for speciality beating flexibility, then often, yes... except when you bring the wrong specialist to the fight. At least with units with modular configurations, a unit might have time for a quick reconfiguration by the unit techs, but for units with fixed equipment, then you're waiting for redeployment from other locations, perhaps even from off-world.

I should have been more specific, it seems.
What I meant was that in case of the GD Infiltrator, it has 3 MPs and at the same time 3 Jump MPs, which is unconventional to say the least. So dropping the 3 MPs would net 80 kgs, which is quite a bit for a medium chassis. More armor/weaponry or special equipment available. Though from an in-universe perspective or judging from the fluff, I can understand doing it the way it was been done. Overall, the Lyrans don't have much reasons to complain concerning their BAs. Remember, they also still have the Rottweiler with all its more or less useful variants.

[Phobos]

Although being stealthy can stop the Infernos from hitting you in the first place. Unless it actually is Stealth armor and the missile boat is replaced by SRM infantry, in which case you're SOL.

I wanted to make a similar remark, but then I remembered that BA are often deployed into forests. And once that forest is burning, the stealth armor does indeed do little.

[False Son]

I cannot agree on your judgement of the Chuchu and the DCMS BAs.
If it weren't for the Laser Reflective armor, I would actually consider them utterly useless. The armament is completely anemic and far from being optimized.

On the Kishi?  Oh brother, that thing is the spawn of hell.  Fast, cheap, hard hitting against this era's infantry, able to take a pounding from energy weapons and able to put the hurt on other BA.  Point for point I think it is one of the better BA ever built.  That's kind of the point, it is super low on BV for the havok it can cause.

The Chuhu is absolutely great. It only has one flaw and that is the lack of Magnetic Clamps and a Firedrake instead of that more or less useless 11th point of armor. But 11 points of Improved Stealth armor and DWP to make the best of the armament (a freaking ER Medium Pulse times 4/5 for crying out loud!).

No, the Chuchu is not that good.  For all the bluster about the stealth armor, mechanizing and ERMPL, people seem to forget the enormous BV that goes with it.  Not that the BV isn't justified.  However, if I am going to pay that kind of BV I better have a way of dealing with/escaping infantry attacks, a secondary weapon or both.  The Chucho has none of those.  It has armored gloves.  That can be a little munchy, but no substitute of an actual AI weapon.  I could forgive those flaws if it wasn't for the fact that it comes in at 60% more than the Zou, and almost 3x the BV of a Kishi.

If it had higher mobility and more versatility as suggested above, it would be probably the best canon Battle armor ever conceived when it comes to fighting Mechs (but also not bad at fighting other BA due to the range, dmg and better to hit numbers). It is also a very good bodyguard unit, although as I said. With the suggested changes, it could be the perfect bodyguard unit.

It isn't a terrible suit.  It just isn't the best suit ever made.  I wouldn't want to face them on the other side.  I just think it is an overrated suit, THE overrated suit.

The new Gray Death BAs are pretty much useless in my mind, due to trying to fill too many roles without proper modular armament. Speciality beats flexibility 8/10 times, I'd say.

I don't agree in this case.  The GD Infiltrator is meant for infiltration and special operations, not line of battle.  Having both 3/3 MPs is a genius idea.  In fact, it stuck me as odd no one thought of it before.  Add to that the armor, standard DLGR and modular weapon mount, you got options.  Lots of options.  To think, the same suit can jump 3, run 3, TAG someone and still ping them with DLGR shots.  That is an inspired suit.

[Savage Coyote]

I should have been more specific, it seems.
What I meant was that in case of the GD Infiltrator, it has 3 MPs and at the same time 3 Jump MPs, which is unconventional to say the least. So dropping the 3 MPs would net 80 kgs, which is quite a bit for a medium chassis. More armor/weaponry or special equipment available. Though from an in-universe perspective or judging from the fluff, I can understand doing it the way it was been done. Overall, the Lyrans don't have much reasons to complain concerning their BAs. Remember, they also still have the Rottweiler with all its more or less useful variants.

As I said earlier, I do enjoy the GD Infiltrator, even with the quirky movement.  It actually came in handy in a game to keep up a "respectable" THM where jumping wouldn't have worked (spotting for arty and didn't want to get closer, but didn't want to get farther away which would have meant leaving cover; lets play ring around the forrest on the GROUND!)  They aren't mainline combatants and I am more of the faction-specific type if I can help it.  They worked well as a harasser/artillery spotter and sold me on their effectiveness in that roll.

Between the Rotty, Fenrir II, Chuchoo, and GD Infiltrator I'd say the Lyrans are doing alright.  They aren't "perfect" but they don't suck either.  And I'm a Fenrir supporter even with the high mortality rate haha :)

[Wrangler]

This certainly the era for Battle Armor.  I find myself liking mix of the suits put out by the various powers than just one faction has the edge.

I do think FedSun's didn't get all the good ones this time. Variants of the older ones for them are better specially when 3085 rang in the updated suits, like Inflintrator MkII with magetic clamps.

Of the new suits I like quads for some reasons, the Shen Long, Fenrir II, and Buraq Fast Battle Armor.  I found them interesting, having speedy and hard hitting suits supporting my Mech forces useful.  The Buraq may not have a lot in firepower department, but its speed and other aspects make up for it.  I find it hilarious cool image wise of horse armor galloping around.

Black Wolf is pretty snazzy firepower packing suit, I'm not big on heavy & assault suits but they're pretty decent for suit of their size. Packing that BA LB-X is nice touch.

[False Son]

Don't undersell the Buraq.  Anything that fast able to mount a Bearhunter is a tad intimidating.  Though, I have to say I'm a little disappointed in the idea of clan quad BA.  It seems like a waste, or a little counterproductive to take hulking Elementals and jam them inside the cockpit of a quad.

I am glad to see some of the more arcane equipment, like the Simian's magnetic claws and Shen Long's pop-up mine seeing use.  The overuse of the medium Recoiless Rifle is getting old.  To see a few pieces of equipment that seldom see use is fun, no matter how questionable they might be in performance.

[sillybrit]

The Chucho has none of those.  It has armored gloves.  That can be a little munchy, but no substitute of an actual AI weapon.

I wish it had an armored glove, but sadly it has twin basic manipulators. Even though armored gloves are superior to APWMs, I'd agree that a proper Mech-scale anti-infantry weapon would be much better.

Sadly, with the mass the Cuchulainn has available after its chassis, motive system and main gun, it only has the armor mass to scavenge. Even using the suggestion of dropping the armor to 10 points doesn't allow for very much in that regard, with the Firedrake, LMG and Inner Sphere Micro GL being the only options, and the latter two requiring the use of a DWP.

The Firedrake is very powerful vs PBIs, but is short ranged. Many infantry platoons can outrange the Firedrake, and that's not a good thing for such a slow suit. The LMG has better range, but there are still platoons that will outrange it and its anti-infantry damage isn't that great. The Micro GL does have the possibility of alternative ammo loads, but suffers from even shorter range than the Firedrake and the same low damage of the LMG.

All in all, my preference would be to support a Cuchulainn unit with something that can kill PBIs, whether it be infantry of my own or something with APGRs.

I don't agree in this case.  The GD Infiltrator is meant for infiltration and special operations, not line of battle.  Having both 3/3 MPs is a genius idea.  In fact, it stuck me as odd no one thought of it before.  Add to that the armor, standard DLGR and modular weapon mount, you got options.  Lots of options.  To think, the same suit can jump 3, run 3, TAG someone and still ping them with DLGR shots.  That is an inspired suit.

Yes. Saved me from addressing that further.  :)

[sillybrit]

I do think FedSun's didn't get all the good ones this time.

Which was deliberate. The AFFS already had most of the boxes ticked as far as roles were concerned, so it was more a case of filling the niches and backfilling fluff in the case of the PAB-28. The Fusilier met the need for something that could actually take a hit, while the Sea Fox and Infiltrator Mk II (Marine) occupy definitely limited niches in gaming terms, but ones that a "real life" military might wish to see filled.

The AFFS still have one of the longest ranged battlesuits in the Hauberk, only exceeded by the new Centaur and matched by the few other LRM armed suits. The Hauberk II and Hauberk Commando are a little meh on the firepower/range front, but the latter does have the advantage of Mimetic, and if either do catch you up close it can be painful. The Grenadier is still a powerful assault suit, even with newer designs that can technically outshoot it, such as the Kopis. Of course, given that the Grenadier can be loaded with Infernos, damage capability isn't always measured in raw firepower.

The standard Infiltrator Mk II is still a great IS medium thanks to the Magshot, and was improved even more as the Magnetic variant. The Sensor variant gives them a viable scout and if you really feel the need for BA C3, then there's the Coral Intent. The venerable old Cavalier still has a role to play as the generic suit that does the lifting that the others can't manage and the Waddle is... the Waddle.

If they're missing anything, it's in the TAG arena, although they have the Sea Fox and PA(L)s that can wield an Infantry TAG in their armored gloves, while the Grenadier and Cavalier could mount a Light TAG as a custom config. With the latter option, then like other states, there's lots more available that can stiffen up an already solid line-up.

For me, the remaining roles that need addressing are a heavy battlesuit (that the Fusilier should have been given my preferences) and an artillery suit. A more balanced gun-armed assault would be nice, but would really be a luxury than a serious need. Updating the Cavalier would be another nice-to-have, but not a necessity; in truth, a lot could be done simply with some extra configs, which shouldn't be a problem in-universe.

I recognize that some of the AFFS suits might find themselves outperformed to one degree or another in certain roles within the artificial limitations of a scenario, but if viewed as a whole and with in-universe eyes, their battle armor corps is superb.

[False Son]

I wish it had an armored glove, but sadly it has twin basic manipulators. Even though armored gloves are superior to APWMs, I'd agree that a proper Mech-scale anti-infantry weapon would be much better.

Yep, for some reason I confused it with the Fusilier's armored glove.

I recognize that some of the AFFS suits might find themselves outperformed to one degree or another in certain roles within the artificial limitations of a scenario, but if viewed as a whole and with in-universe eyes, their battle armor corps is superb.

I get the same impression from their conventional infantry.

[Jellico]

Yep, for some reason I confused it with the Fusilier's armored glove.

I get the same impression from their conventional infantry.

They got their Barrett armed infantry in a House book so what more did they need?

[MarauderD]

So, this may require a new thread, but how many BA threads do we want up at the same time?

In 3145, what are the best transports for Assault Battle Armor?

The Trireme looks good, and so do the Maxim II, but they have limited availability.

Thoughts?

[Colt Ward]

Depends on what rules you want to follow, lol . . .

My vote goes to the Kirghiz C however.

[MarauderD]

Well, lets say to keep things simple all BA count as 1 ton of cargo. The FedSuns has access to the Maxim (I) which can mount 8 or 12 tons I think. They don't seem to have much else that makes a good delivery system.

[False Son]

Bwa?!  They have the Hasek.  It isn't a bulk carrier, but it is close to being a Myrmidon.

[False Son]

They got their Barrett armed infantry in a House book so what more did they need?

Some record sheets w/BV would be nice.

[Lazarus Jaguar]

Don't undersell the Buraq.  Anything that fast able to mount a Bearhunter is a tad intimidating.  Though, I have to say I'm a little disappointed in the idea of clan quad BA.  It seems like a waste, or a little counterproductive to take hulking Elementals and jam them inside the cockpit of a quad.

Actually, I think the Clans would develop more stuff like quads, or "cockpited" designs like the Warg, and for one simple reason:  Freeborn Troops.  The fluff always says that Elemental and other Clan humanoid BA is sized for Elementals (although the this isnt reflected in gameplay, and is even ignored in fiction), thus you'd think they'd want some simple way to make BA that a person of any size can use.  And thus a quad would be great, since you sit in it more than wear it.

Just a thought.

[Wrangler]

I keep picturing that Mech like the Buraq is setup like a armored motorcycle with legs instead of a suit.  Guy sitting in armored cockpit like a motorcycle, with head to inner helmet which is gettng 360 view.  I know fluff about the Hell's Horse having captured former Lyran Battle Armor pilots (captured by the Falcons) who were pilots for quad armors like the Fenrir and Rottweiler showed Horses how they handle their machines..

[VhenRa]

I actually think the AFFS suits are holding up quite well, with the obvious exception of the Cavalier. The lack of updates on the flagship suit hurts them a bit.

That being said, I think the Grenadier is the gold standard for BA damage. It can handle other battle armor or mech forces quite well. Furthermore, the new Fusilier, while being somewhat smeared by the fluff, is an absolute brute in its Reflective mode. That thing will terrorize other BA with its amount of armor and the Plasma Rifle.

Lastly, while it is an in-universe and not a tabletop piece of evidence, the AFFS just has more BA to throw at people. By 3145 even lowly LCTs have a full regiment of BA. That means 750+ suits. Even if 500 of them are Cavaliers, and the other 250 are a hodge podge of Pumas, Hauberks, Grenadiers and Fusliers--that is a lot of battlearmor for anyone to deal with in any setting.

Pretty sure its around a 1000 suits? I am fairly sure FedSun's BA Base 4 continues up to regimental level. 4/16/64/256/1024?

[sillybrit]

Per this thread, it would indeed be 1024 suits for an AFFS BA regt.

I want a regt with 1020 Hauberks, plus 4 Infiltrator Mk IIs to go spot for the torrent of LRMs. The BV might be a little steep though.

[Colt Ward]

Hmm . . . can you load Semi-G into Hauberks?

[sillybrit]

Not without house rules. Battle armor are limited to loading their SRMs and LRM launchers with regular missiles, torpedos, Infernos (SRMs only) and Multi-Purpose Missiles (Clans & LRMs only).

[Kojak]

Not without house rules. Battle armor are limited to loading their SRMs and LRM launchers with regular missiles, torpedos, Infernos (SRMs only) and Multi-Purpose Missiles (Clans & LRMs only).

Thankfully, that's one house rule that MegaMek has definitely incorporated. There are few things more delightful than a Star of LRM Gnomes with S-G LRMs and Support Buraqs for spotters.

[Wrangler]

Not without house rules. Battle armor are limited to loading their SRMs and LRM launchers with regular missiles, torpedos, Infernos (SRMs only) and Multi-Purpose Missiles (Clans & LRMs only).

Question: I thought, Torpedos were restricted to Torpedo Launchers (SRT & LRTs).