Operation: assault on Crucible station!

[solmanian]

The target:
Crucible station - The maskirova main interrogation center for the highest profile prisoners, those deemed too dangerous to simply dump on an inescapable penal colony. Which makes it a virtual intelligence treasure trove, for all the things that keep the chancellor awake at night... Located on the Sian system.
Specifics: massing 6,000 tons, almost half a kilometer long.
Defenses:
Dozens of Large ER lasers
More dozens of point defense lasers.
Dozens of SRM launchers
A battalion of Maskirova marines
A squadron of fighters on a nearby moon. (estimated response time: less than an hour)
The most elite line regiments of the CCAF, currently garrisoning the CapCon throneworld. (Estimated response time: 24-48 for full mobilization, a lot less for a token quick response team of infantry and battle armor, probably with minimal training in Zero-G combat)
A Feng-Huang class warship patrolling the system.  (Estimated response time: depending of position in system, could be days)

Plan A was audacious:
1. Fly up with a cargo dropper with fake mask credentials.
2. Kidnap the station in the cargo hold. Like a Boss.  ^-^
3. Profit!  O0
It was aimed to completely avoid the throneworld defenses, while swatting away the token defense squadron, and open it up for her chunky goodness and deal with the battalion of marines (who could occupy me for days or weeks) at my leisure.

Speed bump:
Looking at the armaments of the station, it seems obvious that they could easily gut any dropper from the inside...  #P Trying to disable all those guns by shooting them is just as likely to reduce the station into a scrap heap.

Oh well, plan B:
The obvious approach, or the "James Bond approach".
1. Infiltrate the station with a elite team of crack commandos/superspies.
2. Vent the garrison into space.
3. Profit!

Being a space station, it would be very likely that the individual cells are atmo sealed. Quickly dealing with the garrison by denying them precious oxygen seemed to have a "I win!" button charm to it. Especially since it would involved pressing an actual button.

Speed bump:
All personnel would likely be using Asunction escape suits as standard dress even off duty. Venting the Oxygen will only mildly discomfort them while they will leisurely walk to get their combat spacesuits.

Plan C basically involves reenacting the 4th succession war. 250 RCTs should get the job done?

Well, I'm stumped... Any suggestions?

[Dragon Cat]

I did this as a fictional piece a while back with the Bounty Hunter

Sneaking close with his Mule that is at least fluffed as having powerful ECM capabilities the BH held back his enemies with his teammates in their Mechs blasting away.  Infiltrating in his PA suit he uploaded a virus making the computers think there was a fire sealing the various levels so h&s could take them 1 by 1 not really a table to exercise but was fun

[solmanian]

And how long did take to essentially wipe out a battalion? And what about the throneworld defenses? ECM and mechs aren't gonna cut it against a warship...

I really liked the plan to hijack the station. Just land it somewhere remote and let a regiment's worth of SWAT teams clear it.

[Dragon Cat]

I didn't play it out  :-\

I wrote it into a story piece.  It was fluffed as the WarShip was out of position or even out of the system I can't remember.

I started it as the DropShip closing on the station then opening up causing a distraction.  The Mechs standing on the outside of the Mule helped the Mule against the station and helped keep the fighters busy.  The BH then infiltrated the station

The scenario ended with the DropShip high tailing it back to the waiting JumpShip at a pirate point and escaping before the ground forces could arrive.

If I was playing it out I'd probably do this
The DropShip has 4 turns to get in range of the station before being discovered

As soon as it is discovered the station will try to destroy it and call for the fighter squadron to arrive

Your boarding team has until the fighters arrive on turn 12 to get onto the station and rescue prisoner
The DropShip must remain in range of station and survive long enough to recover team.

If your team gets into the station roll a TN 10 - your active members (ie you have a squad do 10-6=4) on a success they lock down the level they are on and do not have to fight marines for that turn.  Each turn they are on station TN increases 1 per turn so eventually if you stay you die this represents the stations defences

To win DropShip and team must escape weapons range of station under its own power

I'd count out the WarShip and ground forces unless you're taking a flotilla of your own with you.  The WarShip could be deployed elsewhere or just out of position days away.  The ground forces are not ready to assist in time

[solmanian]

I wasn't kidding about reenacting 4SW... You can work under assumption of virtually unlimited resources, including warship support if necessary. The "sponsor" has a strenuous relations with the CapCon, but they are still trading partners; he would like to avoid all out war with them, and deniability is key. Supplying you with mechs in Davison colors is easy, but including warship would blow his cover...

In short, run wild...

[Archangel]

One, its one thing to have a mask code, its another thing entirely to have a valid current access code to Crucible station.  Not to mention that they probably have a no fly zone near the station with only certain specific DropShips/Shuttles having permission to dock with the station.  IMO they probably only allow shuttles to dock with the station in order to prevent what you are proposing.  Anybody else that has something to transfer to the station would probably have to stay outside the exclusion zone for a shuttle from the station to dock with them.

Two, there is no way you can land the station on a planet intact.  Crash it, yes.  Land it, no.  It wasn't designed for it and would like break up during reentry.

Three, its an orbital prison facility, not a command center.  The amount of vital intelligence to be gained is likely limited with most of it in the form of its inmates.  Unfortunately, there are probably procedures in place to kill all the prisoners should the prison be in danger of falling into enemy hands such as venting the cells into space; not to mention a self-destruct procedure to completely destroy the station.

IMO not worth the effort unless its in concert with an invasion of the planet.

(Oh great now I'm having flashbacks of those old WW2 Bugs Bunny cartoons where the little man from the draft board asks whether the trip is worth it.   ;D)

[PsihoKekec]

You will need to infiltrate the station before the main assault in order to prevent the contingency plans, like killing the prisoners and scuttling the station. This would involve well placed mole or turncoat within Maskirovka who could either provide access to regular supply shuttles (prisoners, defenders and other personnel need to eat), or supply the infiltration team with access codes and a reason to be there - fake delivery of a high value prisoner. Infiltration team would disable defenses for the assault force that would arrive at the pirate point, while decoy force - RCT or two worth of droppers, would burn from other direction towards Sian distracting the defenders, but turning away before engaging orbital defense, while assault force took the prisoners out of the station.

[solmanian]

Two, there is no way you can land the station on a planet intact.  Crash it, yes.  Land it, no.  It wasn't designed for it and would like break up during reentry.

Three, its an orbital prison facility, not a command center.  The amount of vital intelligence to be gained is likely limited with most of it in the form of its inmates.  Unfortunately, there are probably procedures in place to kill all the prisoners should the prison be in danger of falling into enemy hands such as venting the cells into space; not to mention a self-destruct procedure to completely destroy the station.

Mind you it's suppose to be inside the pressurized hold of a cargo dropper for that part. If the station get "crumpled" all the better; chaos works in my favor.

But yes it was unfeasible.

[Archangel]

You will need to infiltrate the station before the main assault in order to prevent the contingency plans, like killing the prisoners and scuttling the station. This would involve well placed mole or turncoat within Maskirovka who could either provide access to regular supply shuttles (prisoners, defenders and other personnel need to eat), or supply the infiltration team with access codes and a reason to be there - fake delivery of a high value prisoner.

Those Maskirovka agents involved in any fashion are likely to be the most fanatical and most loyal.  Finding a potential turncoat without alerting the Maskirovka would be nearly impossible.

Infiltration team would disable defenses for the assault force that would arrive at the pirate point, while decoy force - RCT or two worth of droppers, would burn from other direction towards Sian distracting the defenders, but turning away before engaging orbital defense, while assault force took the prisoners out of the station.

Even if an infiltration were allowed on the station that doesn't mean they would be allowed in the station proper.  Any handover would likely happen outside the security checkpoint to the station proper.  The only ones allowed inside the station would be those with proper authorization to be there and security would certainly not allow an entire team of people they don't know inside without verification from headquarters. Not to mention that the only ones permitted to carry any weapons are the security officers and those agents permanently stationed onboard the station.   Any changes to their security procedures would likely require authorization from a very high-ranking member of the Maskirovka.

Mind you it's suppose to be inside the pressurized hold of a cargo dropper for that part. If the station get "crumpled" all the better; chaos works in my favor.

But yes it was unfeasible.

One, don't think that there are any DropShips capable of carrying the entire station.  A DropShip would have to be specially fitted for such a purpose.  Two, I don't think that you could find any sane DropShip captain willing to take a hostile station that could likely self-destruct at any moment on board their ship.  Three, unless your pilots are perfect shots, disarming the station likely means venting parts of the station into space.  Four, the moment the agents onboard the station realize what you are up to they would trigger the self-destruction.  If it self-destructs next to or worse, after it has been loaded, then the DropShip will likely be destroyed as well.

[PsihoKekec]

Plan B, acquire blueprints of the station, manufacture an excuse for the Q-ship to get close and target the command section of the station with capital or subcapital weapons Amiens style, followed by marines boarding the damaged base.

[Archangel]

Plan B, acquire blueprints of the station, manufacture an excuse for the Q-ship to get close and target the command section of the station with capital or subcapital weapons Amiens style, followed by marines boarding the damaged base.

Acquire blueprints from Maskirovka headquarters (Which is probably the only place that has them)?  And targeting the command section of the station with capital or subcapital weapons would probably destroy the station.  It has barely any armor (the Monarch-class passenger DropShip has twice as much) and the structural integrity of a JumpShip.

[Colt Ward]

You go with the rule . . . is it penetrating shots?  Basically you can blow through a section rather than having the damage transfer.

[PsihoKekec]

I reckon individual sections have a basic sealing and are constructed according to BT and not Hollywood rules, so the breaching hit won't cause the entire station to go up in great ball of fire. Get the marines in and extract the surviving prisoners out.

[Moonsword]

Since this isn't really discussion about a Successor State, just a putative scenario that's heavier on rules debates and gameplay than setting material, it's being moved to General Discussion.

[Archangel]

I reckon individual sections have a basic sealing and are constructed according to BT and not Hollywood rules, so the breaching hit won't cause the entire station to go up in great ball of fire. Get the marines in and extract the surviving prisoners out.

In the Inner Sphere, "basic sealing" means closing off the breached sections and sacrificing everybody inside that section.  The Capellans didn't use the hull-sealing technology that the Clans used and there was nothing comparable in the Inner Sphere.  I would also imagine that the suddenly venting of atmosphere caused by the salvo of capital or subcapital weapons would send the station into an uncontrolled spin.  Any automated software that would normally kick in to right the station would most likely have been destroyed "Amiens style" along with the rest of the command center.  And who knows destroying the command center might automatically trigger the self-destruct.

There is also the good possibility that the salvo would destroy the structural integrity of the station and it would simply tear itself apart (shuttles have a higher structural integrity than the crucible station).  I can just imagine the gunners watching the station fall apart and saying "Oops!".

Quite frankly I don't think that there is any excuse that would allow a Q-Ship in that close to even be able to target the command center without the Maskirovka ordering its destruction.  After all it was intentionally placed far from normal traffic routes and we are talking about the most paranoid intelligence agency in the Inner Sphere.

[elf25s]

OK how about this? it has no fly zone right? so they do get resupply ships at specific times...obvious thing... kidnap shuttle crew replace them.
fine ...but obviously the crew would had been captured on docking...let it happen. in mean time have a small group of 4 or 6 people outside the shuttle sneak on board through the outside ...just make sure the first group piloting a shuttle  accept for their objective (a made up one of rescuing some one, that way security is focused on that group and not expecting the second group)know nothing about the group outside...that is why they are sacrificed in first place.

in mean time second group gets in disables the defenses  in variety of ways...say knocking out power supply...locking computer systems ...out right sabotage...poisoning water/air supply lethally or non lethal means... reconfigure airlocks between sections...basically anything and everything to either knock out or cripple the station.

also to make things worse while the group 2 is trying to get in the station they may want to leave some surprises on the outer hull that can cause panic say shaped charges vibro weapons hell even paint guns....anything that may cause damage irritation and crew busy for a while.

so now time comes to  take the station take it in one piece inside a bigger cargo vessel(vessel should be accompanied and escorted by no less than 2 fighters just in case some guns did not get taken offline) ,  or take it by force of commandos which docks while every one is running around in panic, or take crew hostage (obviously if group that infiltrated the station succeeded)by locking them in places with no easy access(delay tactic while reinforcements arrive), or send them a copy of windows 95 and watch the whole thing shut down while enemy forces either take over or take the stations prisoners away in a  fast cargo shuttle

or you may take out some of the crew by way of rotation...every place or base rotates crews in and out you may go that way but its longer risk of the plan is also greater due to number of people involved

another way is to have accidental asteroid( or force a accident that causes evacuation) hit that forces evacuation of the station(messy dangerous in the way you may loose assets) and have YOUR rescue ship stand by to assist

either way you will loose personnel with any plan the question is how much risk you are willing to take to gain the objective?

[pfarland]

Well, there is another way to do it, but you would need a few things. 

First, you need a few nukes, ones set up for an EMP effect. 
Second, you need to hijack a cargo ship headed for the station. 

The plan varies depending on the SOP of the station.  If it allows direct connection with the supply DS or requires supplies to be transferred by small craft.  The whole thing hinges on the use of the nukes as a standoff weapon.  We are looking only for the EMP effect.

You want either the supply DS or the shuttle (depending on the stations SOP) connected before the nukes go off.  This pretty much means the shuttle and the supply DS are going to be toasted after.  You use the nukes in two (preferably three) waves.  This helps make certain that any backup systems are fried by successive EMP effects.  You send the nukes in behind the supply ship and timed so that the ship (the DS or shuttle) are connected and people have a moment to start moving around.  The nukes, which you want drifting not powered, and can be released early into the DS's initial acceleration, shouldn't be noticed until the last moment and then most probably not recognized for what they are.

Once the EMP weapons go off, you move the true cargo of the supply ships into action.  Troops.  The whole station should be caught on it's ass.  Even if they have an SOP of a yellow alert for supply transfers, it would still be a relaxed one.  The station's guards will be disorganized, likely not knowing what is happening, and even some may not be able to access their weapons. 

Even if there is protocol for execution of prisoners, they probably won't have time to enact it once, possibly IF, they realize it's necessary.  Most of the guards will be fighting or hiding and not worrying about executions.

You need another DS coming in behind the first.  This one needs to be FAST.  It decelerates and connects to the station with some backup troops and to haul away the prisoners.

Timing:  Assuming DS connection to the station.  If it's a shuttle, the EMP nukes need to be released earlier and of course the extra step of the shuttle going to the station.

1)  Out of system; Seizure of Supply JS and DS.
2)  Jump into system; broadcast codes acquired from old crew.
3)  Release DS for "supply".
4)  At the appropriate time, early in the acceleration, the DS releases the nukes to drift towards the station.
5)  End acceleration and begin deceleration phase.
6)  Connection to station.  "Supply crew" begins talking to station crew regarding transfer of supplies.
7)  First EMP weapons detonate.  Station loses power momentarily until backup systems start.  Supply crew uses this moment to get into position to take over supply deck.  No weapons shown yet, any movement dismissed as surprise.
8)  Second EMP weapons detonate damaging most backup systems.  Chances are there are no backups to the backups.  Only hard shielded equipment is still operational.
9)  Supply crew starts firefight with station crew on supply deck.  This is the cue for the troops in the supply ship ship to unload.
10)  Second DS running dark emergency decelerates and connects to station.  Off load more troops.
11)  Take over station, transfer prisoners, and get out of dodge.

As a modification to the above plan, you could have tugs go in along with the second DS.  Connect them up to the station and drag it for a bit.  You could use the extra time to stay out of the way of the warship or to strip the station of parts to alleviate the cost of the mission.

[Archangel]

OK how about this? it has no fly zone right? so they do get resupply ships at specific times...obvious thing... kidnap shuttle crew replace them.

No go.  First, all pilots would be Maskirovka certified shuttle pilots.  Second, the only shuttles allowed up to the station would be kept in a secure hanger and security there would know all pilots authorized access.  Third, there are probably procedures in place as to exactly who would take over if the primary pilots were unable to fly and allowed two never previously seen pilots fly to the station is not likely to be one of them.  Replacing them with doubles would also not work as the pilots likely have other duties when not flying to the station leaving little to no time to get their personal access codes from them.

fine ...but obviously the crew would had been captured on docking...let it happen. in mean time have a small group of 4 or 6 people outside the shuttle sneak on board through the outside ...just make sure the first group piloting a shuttle  accept for their objective (a made up one of rescuing some one, that way security is focused on that group and not expecting the second group)know nothing about the group outside...that is why they are sacrificed in first place.

in mean time second group gets in disables the defenses  in variety of ways...say knocking out power supply...locking computer systems ...out right sabotage...poisoning water/air supply lethally or non lethal means... reconfigure airlocks between sections...basically anything and everything to either knock out or cripple the station.

First, one SQUAD versus a trained, fanatical marine BATTALION plus fifty Maskirovka agents?  Second, every access point is likely not only secured but has sensors to detect any attempt to bypass security as well as security cameras.  Third, many of the controls are likely monitored if not controlled in the command center especially the airlocks.  Fourth, poison water/air supply lethally?!? Which would likely kill everybody onboard including those you want to rescue/capture/extract?  That would defeat the purpose of trying to  take the station intact wouldn't it?

so now time comes to  take the station take it in one piece inside a bigger cargo vessel(vessel should be accompanied and escorted by no less than 2 fighters just in case some guns did not get taken offline) ,  or take it by force of commandos which docks while every one is running around in panic, or take crew hostage (obviously if group that infiltrated the station succeeded)by locking them in places with no easy access(delay tactic while reinforcements arrive), or send them a copy of windows 95 and watch the whole thing shut down while enemy forces either take over or take the stations prisoners away in a  fast cargo shuttle

or you may take out some of the crew by way of rotation...every place or base rotates crews in and out you may go that way but its longer risk of the plan is also greater due to number of people involved

another way is to have accidental asteroid( or force a accident that causes evacuation) hit that forces evacuation of the station(messy dangerous in the way you may loose assets) and have YOUR rescue ship stand by to assist

either way you will loose personnel with any plan the question is how much risk you are willing to take to gain the objective?

Your plan(s) have way too many things that need to go perfect for it to have a serious chance at success.  The moment the Maskirovka notices something going on, they would probably lock down the entire area, if not the system.  BTW nowhere do I see any consideration for the fighter squadron dedicated to the station's defense.

We aren't talking about helping prisoners escape from a Quebec jail by arranging for them to be picked up with a helicopter.  We are talking about infiltrating and capturing possibly the most secure interrogation facility in the Inner Sphere that was designed from the ground up to not only be escape proof but prevent rescue by foreign intelligence services.

[Colt Ward]

Surprised no one has mentioned the Kabrinski method.

[pheonixstorm]

Or the Death Star method lol  :P

[ckosacranoid]

What dou you mean  you wanted that station in tach? I thoughtbyou hired us to take that space station out. We did that in the letter of the contract. There is no more station......

[solmanian]

I think subtlety is key. This is the freaking CapCon throne system. You don't want them finding out about the assault before it's way too late to stop it.

[Archangel]

I think subtlety is key. This is the freaking CapCon throne system. You don't want them finding out about the assault before it's way too late to stop it.

There is also the little matter of getting out of the system, eluding pursuers AND eluding the Chancellor's personal hounds from hell (aka Death Commandos) that he would dispatch to hunt you down.

[PsihoKekec]

Considering such operation would most likely be carried out by another Successor state, sizable cover of the escape route should not be a problem and Death Commandos are no more of a problem than let's say Loki or DEST, they just have more of PR.

I still maintain that my plan B is most viable. Send a sizable flotilla against Sian and have the Q-ship disguised as Capellan combat ship coming from another side, like it's cutting near the station on it's way to join the intercept. Open up with capital/subcapital weapons and blow through command/residential section, send the marines through the holes, crack open the prisoner sections and individual cells, stuff the prisoners into suits and drag them into the evacuation craft (I recon some would be rather uncooperative) and run away with the decoy force. The well being of the station is of no concern to the attacker, wreck it, pull the prisoners out and wreck it some more.

Anyway, is there any mention of this station after Jihad?

[elf25s]

i never said take them out ....sabotage as much as possible confuse the hell of them make them suspect everyone...
taking a target is not just manpower its psychology timing and showmanship of bluff

we are not talking about one guy holding the bridge here
 or blitz right?
objective is to capture as i recall the squad going in depending on the period may have some toys to negate the sensors or trick senses of the living
in situation like this you have to make enemy think there i s a whole lot more crap going on than just simple in and out job
misdirect as much as possible you want enemy to panic
i also  said you  may want to try the long way by having rotational personel replaced with sleeper agents over long period of time say 4 years?
or get few marines or agents squeezed with hostage situation if they have family ...either way you will loose assets but gain your objectives

[solmanian]

In order to reduce traffic aboard the station, every prisoner has a built in turture chamber in his cell. I reckon they will be cooperative with any plan that involves not being there...

As for ways to deal with the garrison. How about a sonic bomb? Body armor and sealed suits would be useless against it. Introducing a dorment biological agent seems like a good plan. Nothing lethal, just something that is highly infectious, will remain dorment for a few months to allow optimal and full contagion of all the personnel, and is enough to incapacitate them to the point where they lie in the barracks, but not enough to be evacuated and to cause the mask to replace them.

[PsihoKekec]

In order to reduce traffic aboard the station, every prisoner has a built in turture chamber in his cell. I reckon they will be cooperative with any plan that involves not being there...

Not every prisoner there would be spy or a traitor, some would be fanaticaly patriotic but for some reason considered a threat for Celestial Wisdom. Such person could be very hostile if the rescuing troops were sporting Republic or Suns insignia.

[solmanian]

It's an interrogation center. It's where you find the people with the best secrets; the kind the CapCon wants to find out, not hide. You can dump CapCon fanboys on Brazen Heart, and forget about them.

[Archangel]

I still maintain that my plan B is most viable. Send a sizable flotilla against Sian and have the Q-ship disguised as Capellan combat ship coming from another side,  like it's cutting near the station on it's way to join the intercept.

No Capellan captain is suicidal enough to breach a Maskirovka no-fly zone without proper authorization.   The prospect of heavy Maskirovka interrogation and, if one is lucky, spending the rest of one's life on Brazen Heart is more than enough deterrent.  Of course, that is assuming that the DropShip isn't destroyed by the intercepting fighter squadron.

Open up with capital/subcapital weapons and blow through command/residential section, send the marines through the holes, crack open the prisoner sections and individual cells, stuff the prisoners into suits and drag them into the evacuation craft (I recon some would be rather uncooperative) and run away with the decoy force. The well being of the station is of no concern to the attacker, wreck it, pull the prisoners out and wreck it some more.

If the capital/subcapital weapons don't destroy the station outright, venting the station's atmosphere into space is sure to kill everybody in that section of the station not wearing a pressure suit.  The station was not designed with combat in mind plus destroying the control sections is more than likely to kill all the prisoners due to lack of oxygen as the life-support systems are likely located there as well.  Control of the life-support systems is vital to maintaining control of the station and therefore wouldn't be located in an area that the prisoners could easily access if they got out of their cells.  After all one could use the systems to either disable threats (by making them go to sleep either by thinning the atmosphere or sending sleeping/stun gas through the vents) or even kill them (completely vent the atmosphere).

[Archangel]

objective is to capture as i recall the squad going in depending on the period may have some toys to negate the sensors or trick senses of the living

That would mean gaining access to the security specs in order to limit what the team had to carry, specs that are likely only kept at the Maskirovka HQ in a high security vault only accessible by senior personnel.  One would likely also run into a Catch-22 problem,.  In order to gain access to the station without those onboard one needs to disable the security features that would alert them, but in order to disable those security features one needs to get onboard the station first.  For example, all the control systems for an airlock's atmosphere sensors and security cameras are most likely within the station beyond the airlock.with

i also  said you  may want to try the long way by having rotational personel replaced with sleeper agents over long period of time say 4 years?
or get few marines or agents squeezed with hostage situation if they have family ...either way you will loose assets but gain your objectives

Sleeper agents are unlikely, but possible.  After all once enlisted in the Maskirovka there is no controlling in what direction their career develops and you are talking about a decade of service or more at least.  Hostage situation is far more unlikely.  Station personnel are carefully selected with an eye towards making sure they can't be bribed or blackmailed or turned.  Having a amoral personality is probably a plus given that they are working in an interrogation center.