Campaign Rules: Against the Bot thread #3

[Makinus]

2.30 Update.

Previous thread:

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,23390.0.html

[Skyth]

Posting so I can keep track of the thread :)

[Xenon54z]

Posting so I can keep track of the thread :)

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[Zugs]

Hey guys, I know there are some issues with 8/5 release but I dont think what I'm about to ask is a bug... maybe.  So if a light foot infantry unit takes damage there is a chance that the unit I guess will "retire" and ask for compensation.  In the case I'm dealing with 50k.  Thats not the issues but what the problems is I cant seem to pay them the 50k and move on.  I hit the advance day button and get the units must retire before advancing quote.  Unit retire page pulls up, its infantry they want 50k.  My choices are Cancel GM and OK.  Ok doesnt seem to make the payment, and the GM mode doesnt seem to do anything.  What am I doing wrong?

[neoancient]

Hey guys, I know there are some issues with 8/5 release but I dont think what I'm about to ask is a bug... maybe.  So if a light foot infantry unit takes damage there is a chance that the unit I guess will "retire" and ask for compensation.  In the case I'm dealing with 50k.  Thats not the issues but what the problems is I cant seem to pay them the 50k and move on.  I hit the advance day button and get the units must retire before advancing quote.  Unit retire page pulls up, its infantry they want 50k.  My choices are Cancel GM and OK.  Ok doesnt seem to make the payment, and the GM mode doesnt seem to do anything.  What am I doing wrong?

I wrote the code for final payouts for those killed in battle as an extension of the retirement/defection rolls, and I wasn't thinking about infantry when I did it. The platoon is supposed to get 50k when it leaves the unit, but losing some members is different. I'm not sure whether they're supposed to get a proportional amount, or whether infantry gets no death benefits. As for not letting you advance, I'll have to look through the code some time tomorrow and see what's going on. The purpose of the GM button is to turn on editing mode so you can modify the settlement details in the table. It's one of three options I included to facilitate house rules.

[scJazz]

Feature Requests for Makinus,

Please consider the following changes to AtB 2.30.

Background: I'm currently playing a Campaign now 9.5 game years old. 99% of my Elite members were a new hire from Personnel Market. This even after I went House rules on some stuff.

House Rules (modified around the 5 year mark):
7+ for XP every 2 months. ASF, Small Craft, Large Vessel Crews, Doctors and Admins +1 for every 3 months in contract. Battle +2xp and Kill +4xp.

Problems:
Kills are few and far between with most OpFor ejecting a legged mech.

Admins are nearly impossible to level up. Using 2.29 rules a Veteran Admin will take 20+ years to level up to Elite. Mainly dependent on the length of contracts. I have EXACTLY ZERO Elite Admins that started in my original force. All the Elites are new hires. Even after I switched up to House Rules.

The issue with Admins is nearly exactly similar with Doctors. All of my Elites, despite the switch to House Rules 5 years ago, are new hires.

ASF, Small Craft, and Large Vessel crews... the same.

Mechwarriors are doing far better. Around 1 in 5 that started as Veterans 9.5 years ago are now Elites. Still the term far better is relative. I have more retired Elite Mechwarriors than I have ones who have actually Leveled up from Veteran. My commander started at 4/4 he is now a 3/4 Veteran.

Given the situation with leveling up... yeah... 80% of my officers are New Hires with Elite already and then upgraded to Officer status.

Comments: The situation has so degraded that I want to only hire Elite anything and I fire everyone else when it comes to Support. Battle count is currently 83. 11 Contracts ( did definitely cut some of it short when I got to about 1 or 2 regiments of OpFor destroyed/lost/salvaged.

DERP Edit: 2 of those Mechwarriors that managed to get from Regular, to Veteran and Elite, both started as AToW characters and both started with Mech Tech. They started as the Leader of my Unit 4/4 and his brother 4/5. They have earned by far, even to say in a ludicrous manner, more XP repairing Armor.

Which comes to the final point. Techs are actually fine.

[Felime]

I mostly assign kills for ejections, Pilot error, etc... caused by me.

That helps Mech pilot XP quite well, though it would be kinda nice to have Admins and doctors have a source of XP.

[scJazz]

I mostly assign kills for ejections, Pilot error, etc... caused by me.

That helps Mech pilot XP quite well, though it would be kinda nice to have Admins and doctors have a source of XP.

I get that but... a Kill is a Kill. The only change I make on Kills is if OpFor gets blasted and ends up killing itself in a Fall. This would reflect skill base... I just punched the bejeezus out of X and he got knocked out, fell over, and Critted his Ammo... poof dead.

I missed in my earlier post that there was a period when I spammed the battlefield with Infantry just to increase my Doctors Skill Rolls.

[ralgith]

Doctors do get XP. You can also manually add XP to anyone as you feel appropriate.

[Felime]

I just figure if my pilot takes the leg off something any it ejects, that's about the same as a pilot taking the wing off a plane and the pilot ejecting, though mechs are generally far more salvagable than that. In universe I can't really see mercs or militaries setting up the rules for assigning kills to exclude disabling the enemy in one of the ways most suited for salvaging them. Maybe if it's killed in a raid where you don't have a chance to salvage it would be equivalent to damaging a plane and having it limp back to the airfield, but that's a lot more work than I really want to do.

I might experiment with upping kill XP and only counting mech kills, because a dozen vedettes is way less impressive painted on your cockpit than a single atlas.

[scJazz]

Doctors do get XP. You can also manually add XP to anyone as you feel appropriate.

You didn't spend any time reading. Something around 20 to 25 game years to push from Vet to Elite. Unless, I spam my force and fights with Infantry.

EDIT: Ralgith tyvm but this isn't an issue for MekHQ Devs. It is for Makinus and his AtB rules. I know they get XP. Some time in 2015 if I continue this campaign one of them will reach the ability to level up to Elite. I expect the Game time started from 3010 to be around 3030.

[scJazz]

I just figure if my pilot takes the leg off something any it ejects, that's about the same as a pilot taking the wing off a plane and the pilot ejecting, though mechs are generally far more salvagable than that. In universe I can't really see mercs or militaries setting up the rules for assigning kills to exclude disabling the enemy in one of the ways most suited for salvaging them. Maybe if it's killed in a raid where you don't have a chance to salvage it would be equivalent to damaging a plane and having it limp back to the airfield, but that's a lot more work than I really want to do.

I might experiment with upping kill XP and only counting mech kills, because a dozen vedettes is way less impressive painted on your cockpit than a single atlas.

You touch at the root of it... a legged mech isn't an auto-kill. Yeah they will eject much of the time but they could decide to fight it out. In 3025 the options are HeadShot, CT Core, or Ammo Explosion. I'm looking right now at a Warhammer which is severely FUBAR still fighting.

This is where it gets strange with AtB rules... in 3025 there are 4 options for a Kill. Advance into Clan Age and Side Torsos are also kills and Pilot Death becomes more likely.

[ralgith]

You didn't spend any time reading. Something around 20 to 25 game years to push from Vet to Elite. Unless, I spam my force and fights with Infantry.

EDIT: Ralgith tyvm but this isn't an issue for MekHQ Devs. It is for Makinus and his AtB rules. I know they get XP. Some time in 2015 if I continue this campaign one of them will reach the ability to level up to Elite. I expect the Game time started from 3010 to be around 3030.

Actually, I read just fine. If you choose to ignore my advice, that's up to you. Also, you can adjust skill XP requirements easy enough as well.

[Felime]

Did some casual research,  (Mostly finding http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_victory_standards_of_World_War_I. I gave up on wading through World of Tanks results on google, though tank kill standards might me a little more directly equivalent.) It seems that most militaries counted forced down and captured as a kill, so I'd say that a legged, ejected, and captured mech would certainly count.

If you don't control the field, probably not, but ejecting also deprives you of the chance to wreck it properly and score a kill, so I'd still count them, but I think that's the sort of thing that's up to you and house rules currently. Maybe an elegant solution could be come up with for the rules, but I think people will always have different opinions and play with those rules to suit them.


Ralgith has a good point about the Doctor and Admin skill XP requirements, and that's probably the best fix without either changing mekHQ or doing some XP scheme manually.

[Zugs]

I wrote the code for final payouts for those killed in battle as an extension of the retirement/defection rolls, and I wasn't thinking about infantry when I did it. The platoon is supposed to get 50k when it leaves the unit, but losing some members is different. I'm not sure whether they're supposed to get a proportional amount, or whether infantry gets no death benefits. As for not letting you advance, I'll have to look through the code some time tomorrow and see what's going on. The purpose of the GM button is to turn on editing mode so you can modify the settlement details in the table. It's one of three options I included to facilitate house rules.

Thanks Neo love the direction of this game btw.  Thank you for all the work you guys do on it.

[scJazz]

Actually, I read just fine. If you choose to ignore my advice, that's up to you. Also, you can adjust skill XP requirements easy enough as well.

I understand that... and plz lets not argue. I explained a problem with the AtB rules. Which I did fix under House Rules. The issue is AtB rules set up a wonderfully absurd situation. One where I am better off hiring new hires... rather than advancing 9.5 year old characters. Or as a dodge... buying everyone Mech Tech (Tech whatever) so they can feed off the 1.6 XP roughly that they would get every 30 or so tries.

I can and have modified those variable available. What I'm interested in is having Makinus pass judgement on what appears absurd.

[Scotty]

The initial draft of AtB was made when bots fought to the end and a good pilot could gain five exp in a single game (one to drop, one to win, one per kill).  I had a couple pilots take on entire lances and win, including a notable pilot who started at 7/7 and ended up two years later as a 4/4 double ace and a 5/6 pilot that made ace good very first drop - because bots didn't eject.  You should absolutely be able to claim a victory if you for someone's leg of and they eject.

That, or turn off the bot's propensity to eject in the options, where I'm reasonably certain the option exists.

[scJazz]

The initial draft of AtB was made when bots fought to the end and a good pilot could gain five exp in a single game (one to drop, one to win, one per kill).  I had a couple pilots take on entire lances and win, including a notable pilot who started at 7/7 and ended up two years later as a 4/4 double ace and a 5/6 pilot that made ace good very first drop - because bots didn't eject.  You should absolutely be able to claim a victory if you for someone's leg of and they eject.

That, or turn off the bot's propensity to eject in the options, where I'm reasonably certain the option exists.

This is my point... the rules need an update.

[Scotty]

That, or turn off the bot's propensity to eject in the options, where I'm reasonably certain the option exists.

[Rogue]

Is there somewhere in the MekHQ interface where I can see the XP of each person? Currently I'm right-clicking, Spend XP, then seeing which options are not grey to give an idea of the XP level, but nowhere do I see the actual value.

[ralgith]

Is there somewhere in the MekHQ interface where I can see the XP of each person? Currently I'm right-clicking, Spend XP, then seeing which options are not grey to give an idea of the XP level, but nowhere do I see the actual value.

Yeah... stop using the silly Graphical view that doesn't show all the information and instead use the "General" view. It will have a column for XP.

[Felime]

Oh god yes. Is there any reason the graphical view is the default when you load in? Does get annoying flipping to general every time I restart mekhq. (Which is every battle because I got in the habit of doing it because megamek would run out of memory for multiple battles. I really should put in the effort to track that down and report it if it's still around...)

[Arkaris]

I agree that we need a new xp scheme for admins since they only gain 1 xp for each month (if they roll high enough).  I recommend adding a +1 XP each time the admins create a merc contract.  But their xp scheme still needs to be significantly reduced.  Doctors and non-mech/vehicle techs also need an update to their xp scheme.

On the other hand, the 100 xp for an elite warrior is about right.  My noble lord (to test those rules) has played 3 years and already has spent around 150ish xp.  Given 5-10 years of dedicated fighting he should be considered an elite mechwarrior.

[ralgith]

I agree that we need a new xp scheme for admins since they only gain 1 xp for each month (if they roll high enough).  I recommend adding a +1 XP each time the admins create a merc contract.  But their xp scheme still needs to be significantly reduced.  Doctors and non-mech/vehicle techs also need an update to their xp scheme.

On the other hand, the 100 xp for an elite warrior is about right.  My noble lord (to test those rules) has played 3 years and already has spent around 150ish xp.  Given 5-10 years of dedicated fighting he should be considered an elite mechwarrior.

Bolded point: Good idea. I'll add that as one of the general XP options in MHQ so that everyone can use it ;)

[Zugs]

Yet another question from the masses! Well me so much as the masses.  Anyway After refiting a PHX-1 the unit basically disappears.  You can see the name in the hanger, and the MM game but the unit is basically invis.  how can I reasign the correct image to my custom mek?

[ralgith]

Bolded point: Good idea. I'll add that as one of the general XP options in MHQ so that everyone can use it ;)

See [r1960]

[Davout73]

Yet another question from the masses! Well me so much as the masses.  Anyway After refiting a PHX-1 the unit basically disappears.  You can see the name in the hanger, and the MM game but the unit is basically invis.  how can I reasign the correct image to my custom mek?

You'll have to edit the mechst.txt file in data\images\units.

The entry for the base PXH is

chassis "Phoenix Hawk" "mechs/Phoenix Hawk PXH-1.gif"

If you've customized it, by changing the designation, you'll have to add a line to the file.
As an example, I customized a Thunderbolt and called it a TDR-5SR.  So I had to add the following entry:

exact "Thunderbolt TDR-5SR" "mechs/thunderboltiic.gif"

That  says for a Thunderbolt mech going by the TDR-5SR designation it will look in the Mechs folder (in the images folder) and use the iic.gif.

I do the same for all my customs.

Hope that helps,

Dav

[jh316]

I've gotten to the point where I just take the -3 hit and dodge breakthrough attacks. Realistically, they're just a stand up fight with a narrow board and no salvage, which doesn't end until their entire side is down.  There's no realistic way to win a breakthrough unless you have a lance of locusts. It's never worth damaging my lance when it's going to end up as a -3 if I do deploy anyway, once the allied medium goes down.

[Zugs]

Dav  That worked thanks man.  As the breakthrough fights, I do ok as long as its a medium or light lance.   A heavy lance I add a 50% bv win to the victory conditions which seems to work out.

[Arkaris]

There is no reason to fight a breakthrough.  Just go right on by the bot.  I usually try to mass one side of the board, and focus down a single mech as I go by.  If you have jjs it's pretty easy to get away on most maps.  If not then you just have to start walking backwards.  I usually lose nothing.

If you are talking about defending, start at the bottom of your deployment area and do your best to block the bots pathing.   Do what you can to leg the mechs, which comes down to knowing your hit tables.

Breakthroughs are generally not that hard.  I think a lot of players are trying to get those heavy and assault lances which is generally not a good way to go.  Keep with medium and lights and your unit will fare much much better.  Deploy heavy and assaults as defending lances.  Keep things light and cheap to replace.