Author Topic: Battle Armor of the Week - Quirinus Battle Armor  (Read 11975 times)

sillybrit

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3939
Battle Armor of the Week - Quirinus Battle Armor
« on: 09 August 2014, 19:27:32 »
Quirinus Battle Armor - Technical Readout 3145 Republic Of The Sphere page 5



     The Quirinus is one of the trio of RAF battle armor designs that came into existence prior to Technical Readout 3145 Republic of the Sphere. In the case of the Quirinus, it doesn't come from clickytech, but instead was born from concept art, with the result being a workmanlike medium battlesuit that is in effect from the IS Standard lineage.

     jymset: Although only recently published, the Quirinus is old in concept. Alongside the Kishi, Spectre and Ogre, it was one of the four suits based on Brent Evans' concept art that I was always pushing for inclusion in a grander DA scheme as far back as 2011, when 3145's form was nowhere on the horizon. An early outline of a "TRO 3150" was floating around for years, and based on that I contacted Pat Wynne to maybe look at expanding on it, as it had a rather restrictive outline even vs the released MWDA game pieces. So I pitched for an intermediate TRO and when 3145 came through, its final form was way huger than anything I expected, with all outstanding ideas folded in, including anything that would have been in "TRO3150". It combined Brent's concept art designs, now including some others like the Cuchulainn and Hollander III, plus existing but "homeless" designs, XTRO development and much more.

Brent Evans' concept art that inspired the Quirinus

     Still found in the armed forces of the Inner Sphere after almost a century of service, the IS Standard is the... well, standard that all Inner Sphere suits can be judged against. In turn an imperfect copy of the Elemental, it established the basic performance expected of a medium trooper design, with the Quirinus being one of the latest versions of that template. As would be expected, the Republic's new suit takes advantage of advances in technology, but as we all too commonly see in battle armor, for each improvement there is often also a cost to pay.

    jymset: The Quirinus does have one claim to fame unknown to most, as it encouraged and reinforced the idea of doing the TO addendum for BA. The main impulse of which were obviously the DA game piece abilities, but it was the Quirinus above all others that reinforced it, because I looked at it and thought - what would it represent with its scale-like armor? With the resulting answer being the new Reactive armor. Brent was ok with the idea. Apparently his original idea for the BA was a podunk suit, but I never even seriously went into the idea of looking at Prototype Armor.

     Starting with the familiar first, and indeed an aspect that has remained unchanged from the IS Standard, the Quirinus comes equipped with the defacto default mobility of the same ground speed as foot infantry combined with a 90 meter jump range. Except when operating indoors, that gives the Quirinus decent maneuverability on the battlefield, plus an all-important boost to defense. Together with the basic +1 hit penalty all non-infantry suffer when attacking battle armor and the +1 for jumping movement, the Quirinus can leap far enough to gain a total +3 defensive hit modifier. At shorter ranges this might not be enough to keep a unit from harm, but at medium and particularly long ranges, this can sometimes make suits like the Quirinus all but immune to incoming fire when combined with terrain.

     One unpleasant (for battle armor!) counter to this sort of defensive maneuverability is the use of area effect weapons, which not only get to ignore movement modifiers and any stealth effects, but have the added bonus of damaging all the suits in the squad equally. Although the threat is greatly lessened now that Mine Clearance Munitions can no longer be used in such a role, Artillery Cannon are more prevalent on the modern battlefield. To help counter this, the Quirinus is one of the few battlesuit designs to mount Reactive armor, which halves the damage received by area effect weapons, as well as missiles and mortars. Unlike larger units, battle armor don't suffer any of the negative side effects of specialized armor such as Reactive, so apart from the added weight and slot requirements it's a win-win situation.

     At just eight points of armor, the Quirinus is still not capable of surviving a hit from the Long Tom version of Artillery Cannon, but lighter models are going to take multiple shots, whereas for the IS Standard, for example, the Sniper version would be adequate to achieve a one-shot TPK. That eight points of armor is also one of the costs I mentioned earlier. At one point less than the IS Standard, it means that the Quirinus is less capable of absorbing damage from other weapon systems such as lasers and autocannon. It's still enough to allow the suit to survive a hit by a standard or ER Large Laser, but it means that, unlike the IS Standard, the Quirinus is vulnerable to the Inner Sphere's Large Pulse Laser, for example. The armor also comes out 30kg heavier than that on an IS Standard, and combined with other additions, that eats away at the weaponry payload.

     jymset: Originally, this suit was to be the premier Reactive Armor suit under a premise where refits of existing suits were the only other possible contenders. So I wanted it to be special, or at least front-line-competent. That meant a MWM was pretty much a must and also dictated its armor value. I like to add +1 point of armour to make a point at times, and while the Clans' medium lasers might make 7 points more threshold-efficient in the scheme of things,  I was emphatic about the 8 points to specifically go beyond the 7 points I deem a minimum on medium suits.

     The Quirinus is equipped with a pair of mismatched manipulators in the form of a Basic Manipulator and a Vibro Battle Claw. The latter allows for a token infantry melee attack and also provides a small boost to the damage of Anti-Mech attacks, but really it's a flavor piece. The Basic Manipulator alone provides Mechanized Battle Armor capability and a second one would have saved 50kg of mass and still allowed Anti-Mech attacks with a minimal loss in damage. It's worth noting that Anti-Mech attacks typically rely more upon the crit chance than the actual damage inflicted, and given that a battlesuit equipped with a Vibro claw only does an extra point of damage for the entire squad, it's not really much of a bonus.

     jymset: The Vibro Claw was chosen because the original concept art had the same "vibro bayonet", and even had "vibrating lines" drawn in around the blade. That 50kg demand along with mass of the chosen armor are what forces limitations on the weapon choices.

     The next design choice that impacts the weapon load is both good and bad. A Light TAG is always a great choice for combined arms forces when you're also packing units that can take advantage of TAGing, such as Semi-guided LRMs, Arrow IVs, etc. If you're not so blessed, then obviously the TAG is just wasted. Overall, I like the option of TAGs on battle armor, as it effectively allows them to punch above their weight and has a decent reach by battlesuit standards, but ideally they're something best seen as a modular configuration or even as a handheld infantry version for battlesuits with gloves. That the Light TAG appears as fixed equipment on one of the RAF's trooper suits suggests that opponents of the Republic can expect a lot of incoming artillery, Semi-guided LRMs and laser-guided bombs, even if that doesn't always translate down to the scenarios players arrange.

     jymset: Given that the MWM lacked both mass and crits, there was little point going beyond 100 kg, leaving enough room to interpret the shoulder-mounted searchlight that's apparent in the illustration as a TAG. The TAG is obviously much more useful than a searchlight and matches well with the RAF's combined arms, and is a highlight of the suit.

     Between the heavier armor, Vibro claw and TAG, the Quirinus has used up 100kg that the IS Standard has available for its Modular Weapon Mount (don't forget the Standard's 15kg Battle Claw for those keeping score). That's half the payload gone, and when combined with the suit having just a single slot remaining thanks to the combination of bulky armor and TAG, that leaves the Quirinus with a limited selection of weapon configurations. Oddly, the suit excuses the possibility of mounting a Firedrake, that can equal the anti-infantry firepower of a Flamer at just a third of the mass, but that's something easily corrected for those who allow custom configurations.

     None of the Quirinus' weapon options offer heavy firepower, but the most damaging choice is the trusty old Machine Gun. It's true that it is very limited in range by modern battle armor standards, but it is useful against infantry and inflicts twice the damage of the other options. Of course, that's not saying much when the average damage for a Quirinus squad armed with Machine Guns is just six points, but it's much better than the three points caused by the other two canon configurations! The David Light Gauss Rifle does at least offer a weapon that outranges many canon suits and configurations, but it's going to take such a long time to kill something that your opponent is probably just going to call in something bigger and meaner to deal with you before they're even halfway dead. As a harassment weapon, perhaps plinking at tanks and damaged ’Mechs in the hopes of a lucky crit, the David can be usable, and given the available space and payload it's not a bad choice.

     The Grenade Launcher is an interesting choice, which offers some useful benefits as an alternative to simply inflicting damage. When loaded with standard grenades, you have a weapon with the range of the Machine Gun that inflicts the same damage against infantry, but half the damage against armored targets. At first glance that might make the Grenade Launcher seem to be a pointless weapon, but thanks to the optional ammo types available in Tactical Operations, it can do more than just hurt the foe. Incendiary grenades are, as you might guess, awesome for setting fire to hexes and opponents, including adding heat to ’Mechs, while Smoke grenades can potentially mask the Quirinus from incoming fire, adding a +1 targeting modifier. Sadly, the Quirinus has just a single magazine for its Grenade Launcher, which means that it can only mount one type of ammunition at a time. If you are willing to accept shorter range (and non-canon configurations) you could mount a Micro Grenade Launcher instead, freeing up enough mass for extra magazines, allowing you to carry all three ammunition types.

     Other non-canon configurations that would be possible include the LMG, ECM and Improved Sensors, but that's a poor selection compared to what's available to the IS Standard and similar suits. Unable to carry heavier, bulkier weapons such as the 4-shot SRM1, Light Recoilless Rifle, Small Laser or the AP Gauss Rifle (assuming you could source them), the Quirinus is always going to be second place in terms of integral firepower compared to the more traditional medium troopers. Yes, the Light TAG can perhaps correct that deficit, but I'm still unconvinced by the design.

     jymset:  The Quirinus stats are *old*, they were made years ago when I started pitching around and unlike some others were never updated. The design even originally had a different name, "Feronia", intended as a tie in to the Angerona, but Patrick suggested the new name to tie in with his vision of the RAF, which was all in his brain back then, with nothing publised. Going in, back in 2011, I wanted the suit to reek of quality and at the time, it did, but it found its final home in 3145 and "tragically" that home also contained other suits that canceled the Quirinus' intended uniqueness, which then really explains its current somewhat-lacklustre existence. It's unfortunate that sillybrit rates it lower than the Simian, which should've always been the throwaway suit based upon its own origins.

     The RAF have an array of infantry transports to carry the Quirinus, some unsuited to battle such as the Trireme Heavy Transport VTOL, while others such as the Trajan can fight in the midst of the fiercest combat. OmniMechs are less common, but there are still some decent options, including the mighty Ares. Employing such transportation, whether vehicular or ’Mech, allows the possibility of the Light TAG actually being of some use, making up for the deficit in integral armament. Despite the low ground speed, the Quirinus can also find good usage in cities. The short range of the Machine Gun and Grenade Launcher will be less of a liability in that environment, and both are good at winkling out the PBIs that tend to be common in urban fights.

     I have to say that I don't really care for the Quirinus. Too much is lost for too little gain when compared to the IS Standard in my opinion, with the Amazon from Technical Readout 3145 Capellan Confederation representing a much better higher tech implementation of the Inner Sphere's original standard medium suit. It also troubles me visually. It's not the worst by any means, but neither is it all that pleasing to the eye, and looks more like a ’Mech than a battlesuit. Sadly I have to rate the Quirinus as nothing but filler material and if I was fielding a medium trooper I'd really rather field a 95-year old battlesuit instead.
« Last Edit: 09 August 2014, 19:34:58 by sillybrit »

UnLimiTeD

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2039
Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Quirinus Battle Armor
« Reply #1 on: 09 August 2014, 20:22:18 »
Hey, I was just a few hours ago reading up on old BAotW and wondering when the next one's coming!
Nice timing, and a nice suit; I kinda like the visuals, though now that it's mentioned, it kinda looks like a prototype. Sad that BA can't mount ballistic shields, that would have been a nice fit instead of that blade to complement the look of the armour that's indeed a bit...  like those metal sheets. Probably held together by hot glue. ^^
Regarding the efficiency of the design... well, yeah.
Probably a decent boarding suit.
Does the Grenade launcher deal AOE damage?
Savannah Masters are the Pringles of Battletech.
Ooo! OOOOOOO! That was a bad one!...and I liked it.

Orin J.

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2785
  • I am to feared! Aw, come on guys...
Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Quirinus Battle Armor
« Reply #2 on: 09 August 2014, 23:04:12 »
the glaring problem with the design is that there's so much mass in the upper torso it makes it impossible to be an actual suit. the lones of the suit are basic stuff, broad simple armor plates, framing simple but effective limbs. the vibro-blade along the arm weapon is an interesting, but poorly configured choice that puts a lot of the blade outside of the useful swinging arc for the pilot (unless he plans on elbowing  a cockpit open), and makes would should be a simple, effective design....

until you notice the upper body is severely out of proportion to the lower. the chest is broad. far too broad, in fact. anyone that could fit into the legs of this armor quite simply could not reach their arms into the battle armor's arms. their head wouldn't be able to peer through the visor. the only possible way to explain how this armor is working is that the soldier inside is working a tiny animatronics control box on his chest for the arms while looking through a 360-degree heads up display connected to the visor. it's a small problem, but like in most things, small problems can become insurmountable.


i want to frown on this armor in general, but that mention of animatronics made me think i need to swathe a unit of these in fake fur and call them the sweetums force. so....i gess full makes for managing to remind me of the muppets.
The Grey Death Legion? Dead? Gotcha, wake me when it's back.....
--------------------------
Every once in a while things make sense.


Don't let these moments alarm you. They pass.

sillybrit

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3939
Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Quirinus Battle Armor
« Reply #3 on: 10 August 2014, 00:42:14 »
Probably a decent boarding suit.

Nope. The single Vibro Claw doesn't provide any Marine Point Value bonus.

Quote
Does the Grenade launcher deal AOE damage?

The standard round doesn't. The incendiary round does, but doesn't actually inflict damage, instead inflicting the effects of an Inferno hit per unit in the target hex.

wellspring

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1502
Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Quirinus Battle Armor
« Reply #4 on: 10 August 2014, 19:37:17 »
I like the look of the suit, though I wish more designs paid attention to the dimensions of the trooper inside. Really, it seems like the main problem of the suit stems from the decision to mount a vibro claw. Not only is the choice itself questionable, but it leaves so little mass left that its other weapon choices questionable as well.

To me, the classic trooper suits like the Elemental, IS Standard, and Salamander* are all versatile suits that hit all the standard check boxes. They need enough mobility to avoid fire and redeploy on their own, the ability to conduct anti-mech swarm and direct-fire attacks, mechanized BA for strategic mobility and combined arms, and anti-infantry capability. They need at least 7 armor, but preferably a full 10 points to endure typical mech-scale weapons that might be used on them. They needn't be as good as a specialist in a role, but the whole point of a trooper suit is that it's a competent and flexible generalist.

The Quirinus hits many of the check boxes, especially survivability, but its direct-fire heavy weapons capability and swarm attack are awful. I don't mind the TAG at all. It speaks to a combined arms philosophy that I really like seeing in an IS suit, and TAG everywhere means you can be a little freer with the munitions (and the TAG you have becomes harder for your enemy to eliminate as an option). A little more flexibility in the main weapon mount and this would have been a first-rate suit, able to act as specialist or generalist as required. Not quite as flexible as clan suits that can do it all at once, but at least able to reconfigure as required to be a solid support, anti-infantry, or anti-armor choice.



* While ostensibly a specialist, this suit really is a do-all generalist in my opinion. It sacrifices some armor for immunity to an old standby for anti-BA weapons under the old rules, plus a blistering anti-mech attack, and still hits the 7 point threshold.

SteelRaven

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9589
  • Fight for something or Die for nothing
    • The Steel-Raven at DeviantArt
Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Quirinus Battle Armor
« Reply #5 on: 10 August 2014, 19:42:53 »
Likewise, like the look but lacks the bite. 
Battletech Art and Commissions
http://steel-raven.deviantart.com

sillybrit

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3939
Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Quirinus Battle Armor
« Reply #6 on: 10 August 2014, 20:36:46 »
swarm attack are awful.

While I'm not a fan of the Quirinus, I wouldn't call its Swarm awful. For a start, both kinds of Anti-Mech attack rely as much upon the extra crit chance they provide as they do on any damage actually inflicted. Second, the MG configuration isn't all that bad in terms of damage. So not awful, maybe below-average instead.

False Son

  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6461
  • Kot Blini
Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Quirinus Battle Armor
« Reply #7 on: 10 August 2014, 21:09:35 »
Ah, once again I find myself at odds with sillybrit's opinion.  I for one love the Quirinus.  One of the best spotters ever made.  And, a fairly good generalist.

While I'm not a fan of the Quirinus, I wouldn't call its Swarm awful. For a start, both kinds of Anti-Mech attack rely as much upon the extra crit chance they provide as they do on any damage actually inflicted. Second, the MG configuration isn't all that bad in terms of damage. So not awful, maybe below-average instead.

The swarm hit location hit chart is it's own reward.  Suits that have higher total damage from their arm mounted weapons get value out of being able to headcap or hit a rear torso location.  The Quirinus relies more on the TAC chance.
TOYNBEE IDEA
IN MOViE `2001
RESURRECT DEAD
ON PLANET JUPITER


Destroy what destroys you

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8392
Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Quirinus Battle Armor
« Reply #8 on: 11 August 2014, 18:34:02 »
The standard round doesn't. The incendiary round does, but doesn't actually inflict damage, instead inflicting the effects of an Inferno hit per unit in the target hex.
I'd agree with you in principal, but I'm not sure the rules support it. One of the latest TacOps errata's shifted BA GL to using the TacOps alternate ammo's, many of which are AOE (It's the ammo, not the weapon).

I think I asked a question about this, should try and find out

sillybrit

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3939
Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Quirinus Battle Armor
« Reply #9 on: 11 August 2014, 19:29:35 »
I'd agree with you in principal, but I'm not sure the rules support it. One of the latest TacOps errata's shifted BA GL to using the TacOps alternate ammo's, many of which are AOE (It's the ammo, not the weapon).

I think I asked a question about this, should try and find out

However, the alternate GL ammo rules in TO state that if you don't pick one of the alternates, then you default to the standard round. Unlike the Vehicular GL, the standard round for the two BA GLs doesn't have a AE modifier as per TW p305.

Wrangler

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 24999
  • Dang it!
    • Battletech Fanon Wiki
Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Quirinus Battle Armor
« Reply #10 on: 11 August 2014, 19:54:34 »
I think its nice basic Battle Armor for the RoTS' RAF.  Nice hidden spotter with its TAG, but realistically in a pickup game i would think the Machine Gun version would be most likely used.

Though i have to say that the image of the suit made me at first think it was some kind of weird version of the Blackjack Mech for some reason.  It look like Mech more than a suit, but its blocky shape i guess.

Would Incendiary harm regular Infanty Troopers?
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants
-Editor on Battletech Fanon Wiki

sillybrit

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3939
Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Quirinus Battle Armor
« Reply #11 on: 11 August 2014, 22:18:44 »
Would Incendiary harm regular Infanty Troopers?

Yes. One Inferno hit kills 3 PBIs (TW p141).

Jellico

  • Spatium Magister
  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 6124
  • BattleMechs are the lords of the battlefield
Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Quirinus Battle Armor
« Reply #12 on: 12 August 2014, 02:45:29 »
So..

3 Inferno Grenades hit a BA Squad, kill one BA.

1 Inferno Grenade hit an Infantry Platoon, kill 3 PBI.

1 Std Grenade does 1 damage against armour.

1 Heavy Std Grenade does 1D6 against an Infantry Platoon (3.5)

1 Auto Std Grenade does 1D6/2 rounded up against an Infantry Platoon (2)

A squad of 4 will get about 2 hits. A point of 5 will get 3.

So... inferno grenades in a Quirinus will be effective against BA only some of the time. It just can't be sure of getting 3 hits. OTOH on average it is only doing 2 with regular grenades. It wipes out 7 PBIs a turn with std vs 6 with inferno.

For comparison the twin grenade Constable does gets approximately 6 hits a turn with its twin grenade launchers, wiping out two BA a turn and 21 PBIs.

False Son

  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6461
  • Kot Blini
Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Quirinus Battle Armor
« Reply #13 on: 13 August 2014, 11:41:41 »
* While ostensibly a specialist, this suit really is a do-all generalist in my opinion. It sacrifices some armor for immunity to an old standby for anti-BA weapons under the old rules, plus a blistering anti-mech attack, and still hits the 7 point threshold.

I'm unsure of the generalist credentials.  To me, the Quirinus is firstly an anti-mech suit.  Both because of the ability to leg and swarm attack, but also because of the inbuilt TAG.  Niether capacity is going to work against other battle armor or infantry.  You can engage the other units with your weapons if you absolutely have to, but try not to. 

I see the Quirinus in some ways also as a bigger Achilleus.  It swaps improved stealth for reactive armor, which I consider a boon.  Being vulnerable to short ranged MVSPLs and IS LPLs is a good tradeoff for the additional protection vs missiles and artillery.  The armor still hits the most important thresholds- 2 clan medium pulse lasers.  And, unlike the Achilleus i'm not asked to pick between TAG or weapon.  I can take an AP weapon on the Achilleus, but it doesn't work for swarms, and the options of secondary weapons on the Quirinus are, in my opinion, better.  I'd use both suits the same way.  Spotting, leg attacks, TAGing and being a general nuisance.  The grenade options allow me to even throw smoke, some heat on battlemechs or crits on tanks.  You know, the good stuff, while being able to call in the power of Capellan Lightning or Semi-Guided LRMs in this age of enlightened combat.  The RAF has more than a few LRM boats, and Semi-Guided is low on BV.  Overall, a fine addition.  Perhaps not my first choice for a line suit, but a decent one.  Perhaps more at home in the Taipei Scouts.

Comparing the Quirinus to the Amazon feels a bit... anti-climactic.  For one thing, the Amazon is boring.  Oh look, max armor with the single best IS generalist weapon.  Fantastic.  But, the Amazon only does that.  It jumps, has a MRR, anti-mech attacks and survives a PPC hit.  Call me pedantic, but I prefer the complexity of the Quirinus attempting to do several small functions.  Comparing the two is like Super Mediocre vs Fierce Mild.
TOYNBEE IDEA
IN MOViE `2001
RESURRECT DEAD
ON PLANET JUPITER


Destroy what destroys you

wellspring

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1502
Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Quirinus Battle Armor
« Reply #14 on: 13 August 2014, 16:00:45 »
I'm unsure of the generalist credentials.  To me, the Quirinus is firstly an anti-mech suit.  Both because of the ability to leg and swarm attack, but also because of the inbuilt TAG.  Niether capacity is going to work against other battle armor or infantry.  You can engage the other units with your weapons if you absolutely have to, but try not to. 

My footnote referred to the Salamander, not the Quirinus. Although often considered a specialist suit due to its strong themed design, it's clearly a generalist in terms of its role. Good mobility, immunity to a common anti-BA attack, vicious vs infantry, excellent swarming attack, excellent as a marine suit, and ok vs vehicles. The direct fire attack isn't terrible, but low armor leaves you vulnerable to artillery and heavy direct fire weapons. All in all, an extremely versatile suit comparable to the original Elemental in its capabilities.

To me, the Quirinus is an attempt to be another be-all suit, but that damn vibroclaw just comes at the expense of everything else. The "bigger Achilleus" feels wrong, but you make a good case there. I'll draw another comparison: to the Longinus-- another suit where one questionable design decision really cripples its potential.

Suits like this scream for custom or updated versions. They're do so much right and need so few changes to be excellent.

False Son

  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6461
  • Kot Blini
Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Quirinus Battle Armor
« Reply #15 on: 13 August 2014, 23:05:24 »
To me, the Quirinus is an attempt to be another be-all suit, but that damn vibroclaw just comes at the expense of everything else. The "bigger Achilleus" feels wrong, but you make a good case there.

I think you might be overselling the impact of the vibro-claw.  The 50 kg it eats up isn't enough to get another point of armor.  It frees up mass for weapons, but one of the limiters is also slot space.  The extra 50 kg gets your a HMG or Flamer.  Good choices, sure.  But, if you remove the vibro-claw you lose anti-mech ability.  To maintain it, the basic manipulator would have to be a battle claw at 15 kg.  So 35 kg worth of extra weapons with no slots, or 1 slot if you swap out for the existing weapon.  Blame the modular weapon mount.  Or, more to the point, blame Reactive armor.  The vibro-claw taking up no slots is a decent enough workaround for the remaining mass.

As for marine points, why a single vibro standard vibro-claw doesn't give you a +1, I don't know.  2 gives you +2... so...  And the choice of a basic manipulator over another battle claw is getting cheap with the mass.  15 kg more and you could make the case for a +1 from both being battle claws.  At the present, besides the token attacks on infantry and BA in the same hex, the best thing I can really say about the vibro-claw is that the 5 damage leg attack brings it in line with a 20 point PSR.  1 point hitting a head in a swarm attack while using incendiary GL ammo is a minute bonus as well.

Quote
I'll draw another comparison: to the Longinus-- another suit where one questionable design decision really cripples its potential.

Maybe.  The Quirinus also reminds me of the Purifier, in that the choice of armor seriously undermines the ability to mount effective systems.  The Republic has been using Purifiers and Angeronas for so long I think they'd be ok with the level of protection in the Quirinus.  Just being able to survive a clan medium pulse is a big step up.
TOYNBEE IDEA
IN MOViE `2001
RESURRECT DEAD
ON PLANET JUPITER


Destroy what destroys you

sillybrit

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3939
Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Quirinus Battle Armor
« Reply #16 on: 14 August 2014, 15:34:23 »
But, if you remove the vibro-claw you lose anti-mech ability.  To maintain it, the basic manipulator would have to be a battle claw at 15 kg.

No, the Quirinus already has a basic manipulator alongside the vibro claw, so exchanging the latter for another basic manipulator will still provide both Mech BA and Anti-Mech capability

Quote
At the present, besides the token attacks on infantry and BA in the same hex, the best thing I can really say about the vibro-claw is that the 5 damage leg attack brings it in line with a 20 point PSR.

That 4 points of damage for a leg attack (+1 for a single vibro-claw, +2 for a pair) is for the entire squad, not per suit.

False Son

  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6461
  • Kot Blini
Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Quirinus Battle Armor
« Reply #17 on: 14 August 2014, 19:57:17 »
No, the Quirinus already has a basic manipulator alongside the vibro claw, so exchanging the latter for another basic manipulator will still provide both Mech BA and Anti-Mech capability

You would be dealing with entirely new artwork then, right?  My proposal acknowledges that there is no manipulator on the left arm. 

Quote
That 4 points of damage for a leg attack (+1 for a single vibro-claw, +2 for a pair) is for the entire squad, not per suit.

I'm well aware of that, thanks.  5 point leg attack versus 4 point brings it more in line with a 20 point PSR, meaning it takes 3 medium lasers, a Gauss rifle, clan ERPPC or any other 15 point combination to force the PSR, rather than 16 or more.
TOYNBEE IDEA
IN MOViE `2001
RESURRECT DEAD
ON PLANET JUPITER


Destroy what destroys you

sillybrit

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3939
Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Quirinus Battle Armor
« Reply #18 on: 14 August 2014, 20:47:08 »
You would be dealing with entirely new artwork then, right?  My proposal acknowledges that there is no manipulator on the left arm. 

Considering that the canon artwork comes from the stats, if the suit didn't have a vibro-claw in the first place, then the artwork would have been different anyway. If you're developing a variant, the original version still exists, thus the canon artwork is still valid. It wouldn't be the first time that artwork doesn't match a variant.

Quote
5 point leg attack versus 4 point brings it more in line with a 20 point PSR, meaning it takes 3 medium lasers, a Gauss rifle, clan ERPPC or any other 15 point combination to force the PSR, rather than 16 or more.

Or the base four points can be combined with a pair of LL or ERLL hits, or a pair of PAC8s or four PAC4s, etc. Not really sure changing the combo of additional attacks required to meet the 20 point threshold counts as that much of a benefit for the vibro-claw.

Arkansas Warrior

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9210
Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Quirinus Battle Armor
« Reply #19 on: 14 August 2014, 21:44:16 »
You would be dealing with entirely new artwork then, right?  My proposal acknowledges that there is no manipulator on the left arm. 

Doesn't the Puma supposedly have two manipulators even though you can't see anything but MagShot at the end of one arm?
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, the Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team, who cowed Dainmar Liao, created the Model Army, and rescued Robinson!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

wellspring

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1502
Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Quirinus Battle Armor
« Reply #20 on: 14 August 2014, 22:14:20 »
Or, more to the point, blame Reactive armor.  The vibro-claw taking up no slots is a decent enough workaround for the remaining mass.

I think sillybrit handled the vibroclaw issue already. To me it's a major, perhaps the only major problem with the design. 50kg buys you alternate clips for the GL, a 3/trooper swarm attack from an HMG, or a flamer option.

The armor, on the other hand, is a very different story. The natural breakpoints for a medium suit are seven points (CMPL and CERML) or ten points (CERLL / CLPL / the various AC's / ISPPC). In the BMR days, you could count on infernos, but today they're better used against heavier suits with more armor. But the big weapon that works brilliantly on BA of all kinds is artillery. Especially as stealth armor proliferates. For a front line suit, the ability to greatly mitigate a major BA-killer is a major advantage. It could shape the opponent's tactics, too, as they move to counter your BA using other weapons.

It's still not great as a trooper suit, and you'd never win a bloodname in one, but there's a very defensible logic to fielding large numbers of a suit that's resistant to the dominant anti-BA weapon out there, has TAG plus a variety of (mediocre but varied) weapons options. Mix with other complementary designs and you've got a suit that anticipates the logical counters to your other suits while providing resilience and combined-arms-friendly offensive options that support your damage-dealers.

False Son

  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6461
  • Kot Blini
Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Quirinus Battle Armor
« Reply #21 on: 14 August 2014, 22:55:57 »
Considering that the canon artwork comes from the stats, if the suit didn't have a vibro-claw in the first place, then the artwork would have been different anyway. If you're developing a variant, the original version still exists, thus the canon artwork is still valid. It wouldn't be the first time that artwork doesn't match a variant.

Ok, because I took this sentence at face value:

Quote from: sillybrit
In the case of the Quirinus, it doesn't come from clickytech, but instead was born from concept art, with the result being a workmanlike medium battlesuit that is in effect from the IS Standard lineage.

Quote
Or the base four points can be combined with a pair of LL or ERLL hits, or a pair of PAC8s or four PAC4s, etc. Not really sure changing the combo of additional attacks required to meet the 20 point threshold counts as that much of a benefit for the vibro-claw.

Because the 5th point falls in line with more weapon combinations than 4 points.  While every point counts, the 5th point can be more important than just saying it is +1 damage.  In the right circumstances it combines with 5 or 15 point weapons out there to produce a PSR.  The same could be said about paired vibro-claws, but 14 point combinations are even fewer.

TOYNBEE IDEA
IN MOViE `2001
RESURRECT DEAD
ON PLANET JUPITER


Destroy what destroys you

Nikas_Zekeval

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1624
Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Quirinus Battle Armor
« Reply #22 on: 15 August 2014, 17:30:40 »
The armor, on the other hand, is a very different story. The natural breakpoints for a medium suit are seven points (CMPL and CERML) or ten points (CERLL / CLPL / the various AC's / ISPPC).

I consider eight to be another breakpoint, it handles Inner Sphere standard and ER Large Lasers, and light gauss Rifles as well.

Scotty

  • Alpha Strike Guru by appointment to the FWLM
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13699
Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Quirinus Battle Armor
« Reply #23 on: 17 August 2014, 00:13:48 »
If anything I'd say 8 is a more important break point, because large lasers are everywhere.
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

wellspring

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1502
Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Quirinus Battle Armor
« Reply #24 on: 17 August 2014, 09:55:59 »
I consider eight to be another breakpoint, it handles Inner Sphere standard and ER Large Lasers, and light gauss Rifles as well.

I'm so used to Clan games I forgot how common 8 point weapons are. You're right, of course.

Wrangler

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 24999
  • Dang it!
    • Battletech Fanon Wiki
Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Quirinus Battle Armor
« Reply #25 on: 17 August 2014, 10:37:53 »
Has anyone seen the Quirinus Battle Armor used at GenCon since their having that Republic vs Wolves thrown down there?
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants
-Editor on Battletech Fanon Wiki

False Son

  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6461
  • Kot Blini
Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Quirinus Battle Armor
« Reply #26 on: 17 August 2014, 11:02:43 »
If anything I'd say 8 is a more important break point, because large lasers are everywhere.

Especially in the former Free Worlds states who also use- shocker, tons of LRMs ant LGRs.
TOYNBEE IDEA
IN MOViE `2001
RESURRECT DEAD
ON PLANET JUPITER


Destroy what destroys you

False Son

  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6461
  • Kot Blini
Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Quirinus Battle Armor
« Reply #27 on: 26 August 2014, 08:16:48 »
Honest question time: if the Quirnus were to swarm a vehicle while using incendiary grenade ammo, would it cause the usual swarm TAC and the inferno critical?
TOYNBEE IDEA
IN MOViE `2001
RESURRECT DEAD
ON PLANET JUPITER


Destroy what destroys you

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 40820
  • We can do it. We have to.
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Quirinus Battle Armor
« Reply #28 on: 26 August 2014, 09:18:32 »
Thinking about it...yes. The weapons would deal their damage normally(albeit all in one spot), and since said damage is in the form of an Inferno hit, you would indeed roll a critical. After that, because it was a swarming attack using BA, you would then get another critical roll.

Y'know, that might not be a bad way to quickly take down a large tank. Something like a Gurty, where any actual damage you dealt would likely be mere scratches on that insane hide.

I usually avoid swarming attacks, but I should probably keep stuff like this in mind... ^-^
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

False Son

  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6461
  • Kot Blini
Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Quirinus Battle Armor
« Reply #29 on: 26 August 2014, 10:00:49 »
It is something of an unusual situation.  The grenade launcher inflicts an inferno like attack without actually being a missile, while the vibro-claw provides damage to an attack that causes 0 points of damage.
TOYNBEE IDEA
IN MOViE `2001
RESURRECT DEAD
ON PLANET JUPITER


Destroy what destroys you

 

Register