Lam's

[Gehad99]

none

[Gehad99]

I got a question for people scene the WOB designed the new lams do people think the houses will start producing the older version or a new version  for them self's?

[Weirdo]

No. LAMs are widely regarded by all major powers as a dead-end technology. The SLDF built them because they were so big they could absorb the costs(and no, I'm not just talking about financial costs), and the Word did so because they were desparate and building ANYTHING that might help(just like late-WWII Germany), but no material has been published that could possibly be interpreted as any other faction being interested in them. Long story short, if your group cares at all about timeline-based continuity, someone who plops a LAM down on a post-Jihad game will likely see their opponent simply stare at them with cocked eyebrows until they remove the LAM out of shame.

[Moonsword]

To expand on my colleague's response, they've been absent from the last two TRO publications (Prototypes and the various TRO3145 volumes) despite an entirely new (and somewhat related) type of 'Mech hitting the field along with production super-heavy tripod BattleMechs.

The TRO3085 entries for the LAMs descended from SLDF designs (including the bimodal Shadow Hawk LAM), the sheets in Record Sheets 3085 Cutting Edge, and the new WoB LAMs in Jihad Hot Spots: Final Reckoning were apparently the LAM's last hurrah, although CGL has previously indicated that a new set of LAM rules to use those units will be in the upcoming Interstellar Operations.  A preview of the rules for using LAMs in play was in the print version of Record Sheets: 3085 if you're interested along with sheets for a couple of the LAMs themselves.  The remaining sheets are in the RS3085 Cutting Edge PDF.  I'd check the BattleCorps store if you're interested.

[Gehad99]

To expand on my colleague's response, they've been absent from the last two TRO publications (Prototypes and the various TRO3145 volumes) despite an entirely new (and somewhat related) type of 'Mech hitting the field along with production super-heavy tripod BattleMechs.

The TRO3085 entries for the LAMs descended from SLDF designs (including the bimodal Shadow Hawk LAM), the sheets in Record Sheets 3085 Cutting Edge, and the new WoB LAMs in Jihad Hot Spots: Final Reckoning were apparently the LAM's last hurrah, although CGL has previously indicated that a new set of LAM rules to use those units will be in the upcoming Interstellar Operations.  A preview of the rules for using LAMs in play was in the print version of Record Sheets: 3085 if you're interested along with sheets for a couple of the LAMs themselves.  The remaining sheets are in the RS3085 Cutting Edge PDF.  I'd check the BattleCorps store if you're interested.

i got the sheets and rules was just asking peoples what they think if they would ever be rebuilt by the houses past the jihad era

[mike19k]

I can not add anything to what the above have said. With that I have always hope that they would make a come back, yes they are not as good as either parts but I think that they are good for things like recon where they can sneak and peek  better than either (IMHO), but unless there is a major break through I do not see them coming back.

How I like to use them when I am not paying attention to canon or during the time that they could be around is things like a LRRP (Long Range Recon Patrol) or to fill the fighter spots in a dropship for a mech unit that will be using them as Mechs.

[Gehad99]

this is what i was looking for, i for one would love for them to come back but upgraded for the time but that is just me.  Like i said just looking at what others think.

[Archangel]

As Weirdo and Moonsword state, neither.  In-universe explanation is that developing the technology is too expensive and time-consuming to warrant invested in a limited application technology that in most cases can be replaced by existing technology.  Training each LAM pilot takes a lot longer than training either a mechWarrior or an aerospace pilot and they compare poorly to either in their particular combat environment.  Not to mention that LAMs are prohibited from utilizing many advanced technologies that have become almost standard in aerospace fighters and battlemechs.

[snewsom2997]

The only way I could see them making a comeback, is with the maybe 3250 rules changes that are rumored to be in the works. For Example, if FFA, ES and XL fusion engines become the new standard, as in no extra crits. Otherwise the rules prohibiting crits across multiple locations basically limits LAMS performance, to Age of War Levels, though some neat things can be done using improved jump jets, and Clan weapons and equipment, like DHS, ER lasers, and Clan LRM's.

[shield2099]

I doubt any power will even try to build LAMs again. They are just not worth the investment. As a raider or scout they rock, but in battle they are just not very good. The only real advantage they had on the board was the aeromech mode but this can now be largely duplicated by the partial wing technology.

If I had to guess I would say the LAM rules and the new WOB LAMs were a kind of fan service. A lot of BT players (including myself) love LAMs for some unexplainable reason. The storyline has gone out of its way to remove LAMs from the universe. I doubt they will be making a big come back.

Then again, there is always that chance (no matter how small) that Clan Wolverine will return and their entire military will be based on super advanced LAMs. That would be the ultimate spite to their fellow clans. But you know. I would not hold my breath on that happening.

[glitterboy2098]

some of the MWDA material leaves a possible opening for the tech to be resurrected* but it seems likely that catalyst will not bring LAM's back anytime soon. so at best any hints in the material that open up a chance will only be used by LAM fans to ressurect the unit type in their personal campaigns.

* Dark Age: Republic Worlds PDF includes details on how Kressly Warworks found and rebuilt an old Harvard company "aerospace testing site" on Epsilon Eridani. given the main product of Harvard company was the Wasp LAM's, could well have had a wealth of data on LAM design and construction, as well as experimental concepts, to be salvaged.

[jklantern]

No. LAMs are widely regarded by all major powers as a dead-end technology. The SLDF built them because they were so big they could absorb the costs(and no, I'm not just talking about financial costs), and the Word did so because they were desparate and building ANYTHING that might help(just like late-WWII Germany), but no material has been published that could possibly be interpreted as any other faction being interested in them. Long story short, if your group cares at all about timeline-based continuity, someone who plops a LAM down on a post-Jihad game will likely see their opponent simply stare at them with cocked eyebrows until they remove the LAM out of shame.

I feel like "The LAM of Shame" should be a Forum Award of some kind.   ;D

[PsihoKekec]

Makes me wonder if we could make a superheavy mech that would be LAM carrier/launcher.

[Gehad99]

looks like my lams will only be used for sdlf and wob forces. for the time frame

[Gehad99]

looking at the reading with the time lines and the stores that have come out i could see them coming back out  Republic time frame.  Because it would give units more flexibility aka it gives them both a mech and an aro-fighter when needed. Yes it is harder to train the pilots but it does give a unit some thing that can fill a gap instead of 2 units.

but yes i agree that the lams wont becoming back out any time soon if ever.       >:(

[Weirdo]

looking at the reading with the time lines and the stores that have come out i could see them coming back out  Republic time frame.  Because it would give units more flexibility aka it gives them both a mech and an aro-fighter when needed. Yes it is harder to train the pilots but it does give a unit some thing that can fill a gap instead of 2 units.

The problem is that instead of getting a 'mech OR a fighter, either of which might actually be effective designs and/or operated by a skilled pilot, you're pretty much guaranteed to get something that sucks at both roles, and odds are the pilot won't be as skilled either.

I'm all for flexibility, but it's obvious that in this case you're sacrificing too much in the way of actual capability for it. Sometimes you just gotta bite the bullet and specialize.

[Gehad99]

The problem is that instead of getting a 'mech OR a fighter, either of which might actually be effective designs and/or operated by a skilled pilot, you're pretty much guaranteed to get something that sucks at both roles, and odds are the pilot won't be as skilled either.

I'm all for flexibility, but it's obvious that in this case you're sacrificing too much in the way of actual capability for it. Sometimes you just gotta bite the bullet and specialize.

i agree with you there but from the way military's go in that time frame i could see them coming back, like i said it could be a possibility (not a good one tho but it is there)

[Weirdo]

I'll admit that the odds are nonzero, but I'd expect WarShip fleets to make a comeback before LAMs will.

Real fleets, not the pansy stuff we saw in the 3050s and 60s.

[snewsom2997]

I'll admit that the odds are nonzero, but I'd expect WarShip fleets to make a comeback before LAMs will.

Real fleets, not the pansy stuff we saw in the 3050s and 60s.

Hopes and Dreams  O:-)

[glitterboy2098]

The problem is that instead of getting a 'mech OR a fighter, either of which might actually be effective designs and/or operated by a skilled pilot, you're pretty much guaranteed to get something that sucks at both roles, and odds are the pilot won't be as skilled either.

I'm all for flexibility, but it's obvious that in this case you're sacrificing too much in the way of actual capability for it. Sometimes you just gotta bite the bullet and specialize.

and if you look at them as a mech or a fighter, yeah your entitled to think that. but if you look at it as a WiGE that has arms and legs, can fly a bit higher, and better armor... suddenly they don't look so bad do they? ultimately that is what they are, but people tend to get fixated on using them as mechs or fighters.. when really it is the airmech mode that they do their best work in. and there is nothing thus far that can replicate the mobility of an airmech mode LAM. even IJJ+Partial wing can't match it.

[shield2099]

I'll admit that the odds are nonzero, but I'd expect WarShip fleets to make a comeback before LAMs will.

Real fleets, not the pansy stuff we saw in the 3050s and 60s.

I don’t understand why the space defense element ever really went away even during the SWs. Was space based construction Lostech? I can understand warships. The compact K-F drives were lostech. That’s cool. But why not build defensive space stations? Or Sub-light only system patrol ships? Stop invasions and raiding by battling the drop ships in space. A small warship sized craft without the K-F drive would be dangerous to even a full Warship. You could build it in modular sections, transport it by jumpship. Assemble it in orbit, and tada! A dedicated system defense warship (just unable to leave the host system). I can even understand naval class weapons being lostech but you can still mount a pile of PPCs and ACs on a small warship sized craft with no KF drive. 

[Vition]

I see LAMs only making a real comeback when the common fighting element reaches division level (plus supports) as opposed to the regimental level (plus supports) we frequently see now.

[Wrangler]

I think its plain stupid.  I like LAMs, with limitations it can be made to work.  However, a lot of the restriction on them now makes them hard to justify.   They really can't have any advance space saving armor/components aside from Clan Weaponry.   I still like them, but I have to agree that AirMech mode is only place they really show their uniqueness on the battlefield. 

I see them more as a light weight scout machine or light weight strike vehicle.  Especially with internal Bomb bay.  Arrow IV touting Wasp LAM Mk I and Screamer. 

[Weirdo]

But why not build defensive space stations?

They did. See the Bastion and Capitol classes. Unfortunately, space is a LOT bigger than any weapons range in Battletech, so aside from their utility as fighter bases, they really can't do much unless the bad guys come straight at them. And I'm not talking about orbiting the same planet, I'm talking about straight at the station itself.

Or Sub-light only system patrol ships?

They did. See the class of vessel known as the Assault DropShip.

A small warship sized craft without the K-F drive...

Explicitly and EXTREMELY illegal. No construction rules allow for them, and judging by TPTB's reactions whenever they get baited into talking about them, you'd have to stage a hostile takeover of CGL, fire every single person currently there, and hire your own all-new staff  before you'd have anyone willing to legalize them.

[Wrangler]

They did. See the Bastion and Capitol classes. Unfortunately, space is a LOT bigger than any weapons range in Battletech, so aside from their utility as fighter bases, they really can't do much unless the bad guys come straight at them. And I'm not talking about orbiting the same planet, I'm talking about straight at the station itself.They did. See the class of vessel known as the Assault DropShip.Explicitly and EXTREMELY illegal. No construction rules allow for them, and judging by TPTB's reactions whenever they get baited into talking about them, you'd have to stage a hostile takeover of CGL, fire every single person currently there, and hire your own all-new staff  before you'd have anyone willing to legalize them.

I find that bizarre.  Truly, I don't understand why its so bad they have to do that.  they that against WarShips even ones that can't leave a system, they're so violently against them?   Sheesh.   

LAMs could be good unit deploy from the defense stations, but Weirdo is right.  Unless their a directive for invasion, their easily avoided.  They have some capital weapons, but they only have ONE structural integrity point.  Any shots getting through their armor, its hosed.  Worthless waste of c-bills.

[Weirdo]

they that against WarShips even ones that can't leave a system, they're so violently against them?   Sheesh.

The dislike of monitors has nothing whatsoever to do with their being warships. That's 100% wrong, to the point that I really have to wonder where you came up with that...idea.

The bias against monitors is because they are pure, unadulterated cheese. Anyone who's tried building one or seen someone else's attempts will see that immediately.

[Rtifs]

I don’t think BT needs LAMs.  But that said the reasons for their lack of use are all based on the premise that the LAM is a replacement for a mech or fighter.  I see them as a special forces unit.  Like Seal Team 6.  You give them special assignments like Operation Bird Dog, and don’t try to use them as your line combatants.  I think there could be a niche for them that way.

[Knightmare]

i agree with you there but from the way military's go in that time frame i could see them coming back, like i said it could be a possibility (not a good one tho but it is there)

Hardly. The Republic is under the dual guns of urgency to rebuild and minimal resources. Heck, they're reusing the confiscated ComGuard machines without any real modification—and they look like bloody Celestials!   

While LAMs are versatile in certain roles, the cost of production, lengthy pilot training & their relatively mediocre performance, coupled with their general fragility make the LAM one of the worst weapon systems the RAF could adopt circa 3145. Even in the WiGE role, there are cheaper, better options available. Unfortunately, behind the Fortress Walls, a weapon that's "Jack-of-all-Trades, but good at none" has no future.

Still, whatever works for your game! If the RAF stumbled upon a Jihad-era cache of Spectral LAMs, I'm sure after some internal and visual modification they'd find some service.  O0 

[JPArbiter]

and if you look at them as a mech or a fighter, yeah your entitled to think that. but if you look at it as a WiGE that has arms and legs, can fly a bit higher, and better armor... suddenly they don't look so bad do they? ultimately that is what they are, but people tend to get fixated on using them as mechs or fighters.. when really it is the airmech mode that they do their best work in. and there is nothing thus far that can replicate the mobility of an airmech mode LAM. even IJJ+Partial wing can't match it.

and unlike the 3rd succession wars where shooting down an Airmech took an act of God thanks to ungoldy unbalanced rules and a lack of viable options, we now have LB-X Autocannons, Area Effect weapons better integrated aerospace rules and heavily nerfed LAM motive rules themselves, an Air Mech is really a glorified target for a properly equipped force, which sadly is the kind of force you would want to send an airmech into (strategically speaking) to scout and disrupt.

WiGEs like the Nisos and Pandion will do the job MUCH better and most importantly at less cost overall

[Liam's Ghost]

The greatest tragedy of the LAMs was the Star League's failure to get the idea of just stripping out the fighter part, maybe conversion entirely, and instead focus on pure airmechs (or maybe bimodal mechs/airmechs). Because 'dat speed! Most of the LAM's problems can be alleviated if you ignore that whole "pretending I'm a fighter" part. Most of the rest can be alleviated if you don't pretend you're a straight battlemech either. You aren't a jack of all trades, you are a super duper WIGE that doesn't take motive hits.

I find that bizarre.  Truly, I don't understand why its so bad they have to do that.  they that against WarShips even ones that can't leave a system, they're so violently against them?   Sheesh.   

The construction system simply can't construct them without twisting into a nightmarish void of elder god cheese. The only way to make them manageable without further underlining system's problems would be to rebuild the entire system from the ground up.