Posing compromise?

[DarkSpade]

I'm currently putting together my new Black Knight and I've noticed two things.

1) This thing offers a pretty good amount of posing options!  O0
2) This thing is a pain to put together.   :-\

Now I hate it when I get a mini and it's all one static piece.  Especially if it's just standing there like the pilot lost his keys(the original dragon for example).  However, I also hate it when I feel like the only way I can build a mini is by building a miniature scaffolding to hold it in place as I build it.   It's made a little worse when the mini has a lot of rather thin bits around the joint leaving little to no room for dry pinning.

This has got me wondering.  Is a compromise possible?  Only idea I can think of is if the joints were molded with a bump and groove.  That way if someone does want a simple standing pose they'll know as long as they line up the bump with the groove their mini will stand up right and end up looking just like it does in its pic on the IWM website.  This would work great for new builders as well as experienced builders in a hurry.  Meanwhile, anyone who did want to get fancy with their posing could just file off the little bump and pose as they want.

Seems like a simple solution so I'm sure there's some obvious reason it won't work that I'm oblivious to.   :P

[cavingjan]

Unless you use a multipart leg, any switch from a static standing pose to a moving pose looks stiff or off. Some of the clan omnis could pull it off but only because all of the legs were thin enough to bend at the knees. But then again, I've always had to use putty to hold everything in place while drying and still tend to shatter when dropped.

[worktroll]

There's a constant dynamic going on between the expert mini fanciers  (of which CSO artists are a fair representation), who love the flexibility of multi-part minis and are happy to work with them, and the average hobbyists who like a few options but don't have the same level of emotional investment in architecting each mini. As the former group are often closer to the artists and/or sculptors involved in 'Mech design, it feels like particularly desired minis (like the new Black Knight) seem weighted more in their direction.

The original Project Phoenix 'Mechs, for example, included some of the worst examples of "expert-grade only" minis - the reseen Marauder 9L, Warhammer and Thunderbolt being particularly egrarious offences in this regard. (Seriously. Why bother making the PP Thud so multi-part, when the legs can only go in one stance without major rework, and the left arm looks like it had a stroke. Seriously!)

There is a middle ground - consider the PP Archer. Yes, the missile doors are a pain, but it's a good dynamic striding pose, with separate torso & arms allowing for individual variations. And there are many single-piece minis - Quickdraw comes to mind, along with the powered-down Dragon ;)

At the end of the day I think IWM do a reasonable job catering to the different levels of skill & interest out there in the fanbase. It's just painful for any of us when a mini we'd really like ends up catering for the camp at the other end of the skill spectrum.

And it's worth pointing out IWM have revisited some of the worst offenders, and produced more reliable variants. The Marauder 9R/5S is massively easier to build, with fewer parts and better contact points. The Warhammer 7K has single-piece feet/legs/waist IIRC, and I think there's a Thud variant with fewer parts. So there is value in - not complaining, but letting IWM know there's a market for variants with fewer parts.

W.

[SteelWarrior]

Agreed, I think the highly anticipated releases, the stuff people are excited about, should very posable.  Where as the collection "fillers" can be more static.

[worktroll]

Well, I disagree, as it's my personal suspicion that the less-interested-in-metal-origami bunch outweigh the expert assemblers in commercial terms. I'd strongly prefer the much-anticipated sculpts being as accessible as possible, with the variants being the fully posable ones.

But I'm just one customer.

[Sereglach]

Well, I disagree, as it's my personal suspicion that the less-interested-in-metal-origami bunch outweigh the expert assemblers in commercial terms. I'd strongly prefer the much-anticipated sculpts being as accessible as possible, with the variants being the fully posable ones.

But I'm just one customer.

You may only be one customer, but you just effectively spoke for two of us, at least.

To me, sometimes a more complex mini is great . . . other times it makes me want to smash my head into a wall.  Most of the time I want a semi-dynamic mini that doesn't look like a "duck-marcher" if I put it in a more animated (aka running) pose, but I don't want a mini that makes me wonder where the Ikea instructions are hiding at.  The Lament was a pretty awesome example of this.  The upper body was reasonably fixed, which was fine (especially for its role), but the lower half had enough different parts that I could actually use a customized base (thanks to my fiancée for sculpting it), and put it in a braced firing position without looking weird.  Those customized parts also went together in a very straightforward fashion.

I think that's more integral than even the quantity of parts.  If you're heavily questioning how a mech goes together (even looking at MUL/TRO art or IWM's site, for example), then I think that's where the bigger issue and headaches start to come in (for me, at least).  Of course . . . sometimes when those ball joints just don't want to take the glue and hold . . . that also makes me want to pull my hair out and wonder how the display piece for IWM's website ever got assembled.

[worktroll]

It's worth noting that, IIRC,  most of the Project Phoenix sculpts were done by Drew Williams, who was both an insanely talented sculptor, mini assembler, and CSO artist, before his carpal tunnel set in and restricted his ability to do fine work. The intention with a lot of those early, FanPro-era new sculpts was to really hit the top of the game mini-wise - a lot of BT minis being looked down on by the competitive pro-paint world due to their lack of posability and detail. So you had that confluence of expertise in all areas coming together, and giving us ... the MAD-9L, reseen Thud, and a world of hate to those less skilled in mini assembly.

I don't believe Fantech is running any more. But I'd fund development of single-piece waists for a bunch of these. I had been planning to buy a few of the new Black Knights to use as older versions (can't stand the bowlegged original), but - now - not going to. I'm suffering a reseen Thud at the moment - second try, last time was over 4 years ago, and I still have flashbacks to the problems I had then.

W.

[Sereglach]

It's worth noting that, IIRC,  most of the Project Phoenix sculpts were done by Drew Williams, who was both an insanely talented sculptor, mini assembler, and CSO artist, before his carpal tunnel set in and restricted his ability to do fine work. The intention with a lot of those early, FanPro-era new sculpts was to really hit the top of the game mini-wise - a lot of BT minis being looked down on by the competitive pro-paint world due to their lack of posability and detail. So you had that confluence of expertise in all areas coming together, and giving us ... the MAD-9L, reseen Thud, and a world of hate to those less skilled in mini assembly.

I don't believe Fantech is running any more. But I'd fund development of single-piece waists for a bunch of these. I had been planning to buy a few of the new Black Knights to use as older versions (can't stand the bowlegged original), but - now - not going to. I'm suffering a reseen Thud at the moment - second try, last time was over 4 years ago, and I still have flashbacks to the problems I had then.

W.

Very interesting history lesson there on the Battletech mini-business.  Thank you.  Sorry for a little off-topic question here, but:

When you mention the Black Knight and say you're suffing a reseen Thud at the moment, does that mean you're going through the hell of building another reseen Thunderbolt, or does that mean you're having the same kinds of problems with the Black Knight that you had with the Thunderbolt?  One reason I'm asking is because that Black Knight is on my short-list for mini purchases.  The other is that, so if I follow through with said purchase, I can brace myself for the nightmare of assembly.

[worktroll]

I'm going through the hell of another reseen Thud. WIll be interesting to see if this is the first mini I make unintentionally doing the Zorba dance or not ... ;)

[Psycho]

I think it's telling that critics of multi-part minis have to repeatedly go back to a grand total of three, decade-plus-old minis in order to get their pitchforks and torches going.

Nothing is going to be perfect, but I think there's been a pretty reasonable exchange in the dynamics vs. complexity equation since 2000. I have days where the glue just won't stick too. It's not the fault of the mini. And there are a few minis with really annoying fiddly bits... but what line doesn't have a few minis with issues?

I'm kind of disappointed that IWM no longer has the 'top ten' list showing on their site. I found it quite interesting to see how many of the best-selling 'Mechs had a bunch of parts: Mad Cat, Daishi, Masakari, Marauder IIC, Atlas... Those are just what I can remember being there. It's not a question of what side is right versus what side is wrong. A large portion of it comes down to the build of the 'Mech in question. How things can be sculpted, and even more, how things can be cast are the greatest determining factors here.

[RABIDFOX50]

TheMaster1955, Saint and I were having a conversation around what Worktroll was saying. As we get older our eyes and hands are not as good as they use to and the more complex minis are a chore to build. You must always factor in the "Grouchy old man" element!  :))

That said, the three of us are avid CBT players and collectors which means we use our minis. We do not mind the multi part minis and it's a nice challenge to build them, although we have to use those desk lamps with the big freaking magnifying glass in them.  ;)

[Sereglach]

I think it's telling that critics of multi-part minis have to repeatedly go back to a grand total of three, decade-plus-old minis in order to get their pitchforks and torches going.

Nothing is going to be perfect, but I think there's been a pretty reasonable exchange in the dynamics vs. complexity equation since 2000. I have days where the glue just won't stick too. It's not the fault of the mini. And there are a few minis with really annoying fiddly bits... but what line doesn't have a few minis with issues?

I'm kind of disappointed that IWM no longer has the 'top ten' list showing on their site. I found it quite interesting to see how many of the best-selling 'Mechs had a bunch of parts: Mad Cat, Daishi, Masakari, Marauder IIC, Atlas... Those are just what I can remember being there. It's not a question of what side is right versus what side is wrong. A large portion of it comes down to the build of the 'Mech in question. How things can be sculpted, and even more, how things can be cast are the greatest determining factors here.

I don't know where the "torches and pitchforks" comment is coming from.  Yes, we've been talking about some of the headaches of assembling minis (and thereby posing them), but we're far from bringing out any "torches and pitchforks".  Even my comment at the glue . . . I'm not griping about the mini . . . I'm cussing the fact that the glue sometimes just won't take in some mechs' joints and it makes me wonder how the professionals get the stuff assembled and looking so good.

However, if you want to turn around and say our complaints stem from a total of "three, decade-plus-old minis" . . . then I can say the same thing about your best sellers that you site.  Those are all iconic mechs, period.  It wouldn't matter if they came in 300 pieces and required surgical tools to assemble . . . people would buy them, and fight to assemble them, because they're iconic and cornerstone mechs that people love to look at and love to field.

[Psycho]

Sorry, no offense intended.

It is a subject that has come up many times, with some rather... heated... posts. I feel that having balance in discussion is good: if only the negatives are stated, it can lead to a very biased view. Feel free to ask if you have further questions, otherwise I will step aside.

[GunjiNoKanrei]

I don't like assembling miniatures and I also have these 'bad glue' days Psycho mentioned. But I still say the more parts the better. Better an evening spent cursing than a static pose.

As a compromise I am happy when the feet are not attached to one of those cursed integrated bases or plates. Luckily more and more sculpts move away from this practice.

[RABIDFOX50]

I don't like assembling miniatures and I also have these 'bad glue' days Psycho mentioned. But I still say the more parts the better. Better an evening spent cursing than a static pose.

As a compromise I am happy when the feet are not attached to one of those cursed integrated bases or plates. Luckily more and more sculpts move away from this practice.

Since you mentioned the leg/base thing, the reseen Rifleman comes to mind with its God aweful Saturday night fever legs. Why oh why did they let that one pass?

[DarkSpade]

Woah, easy guys.  This thread is about compromise, remember?   I even checked twice to make sure I spelt it right.

Surely there's a way to make minis that are easily posed by accomplished builders without scaring off novices.  If anything, I'm sure we can all agree that locking a model's feet together isn't the way to go.

[Sentinel373]

I'm a newb when it comes to assembling miniatures. I enjoy doing it, but my favorite thing would be an easy build with maximum posing options. (compromise :P )
And I try to implement that when making miniatures as much as possible as well. So far the biggest compliment that people have paid the Ares (in my eyes) has been that its easy to assemble. despite it being a mini that can have between 17 or 21 parts depending on the variant. The fact that its big probably also helps.

When making mini I try to use ball joints and sockets as much as possible although sometimes that's not possible or practical depending on the design or how it should be cast. One of my biggest gripes with mini's is when a figure just has a flat surface to attach a component to. not only can those be annoying to assemble but they can also be notoriously weak cause the only thing that's carrying any weight is the glue so whenever i can add a peg/ball or socket a component not only does it make the miniature stronger but in my experience it makes it easier to assemble and pose as well cause often these types of joints will allow for more posing options. Then again I've only been doing this for a little over a year so i may not have run into a project that will completely throw my views out the window but I think there is definitely a good middle ground where you can have an easy to assemble mini that has enough parts to give it the maximum range of posing options.

But that's just my 2 cents from the perspective of someone who designs and models (sculpts) the miniatures. if you have any questions feel free to ask if i can talk about it I will.

[Sereglach]

One of my biggest gripes with mini's is when a figure just has a flat surface to attach a component to. not only can those be annoying to assemble but they can also be notoriously weak cause the only thing that's carrying any weight is the glue so whenever i can add a peg/ball or socket a component not only does it make the miniature stronger but in my experience it makes it easier to assemble and pose as well cause often these types of joints will allow for more posing options.

What you're talking about with adding pegs, I think you're referring to pinning.  That's where you drill a small hole into each side (with a pin-vice using jewelry drills), and glue in a pin (again, probably holding the pin with the pin-vice for easy insertion and steadier grip) that will go into both holes and strengthen the joint.  I think the big advantage of a lot of the minis with flat surfaces is that they're very easy to pin, once you've decided on your pose.  Pinning a ball-joint can sometimes be a pain (at least for me), because I don't have the super-steady hands to make sure the pin-vice doesn't slip when attempting to drill on the curved surface.  Of course . . . my nerves are friggin shot.

Another option for the flat surfaces (one I use more often) is to take a rougher file and just give one swipe across the smooth surface . . . just barely enough to get some grooves in there for the glue to grip.  It's a trick I've used a fair bit in tinkering with woodworking and other endeavors, and it seems to work pretty well for the minis.  I actually use it more than pinning because it won't outwardly damage the mini and if I want to redo the mini, I don't need to worry about leaving exposed pinning holes if I decide to drastically change a pose.

Woah, easy guys.  This thread is about compromise, remember?   I even checked twice to make sure I spelt it right.

Surely there's a way to make minis that are easily posed by accomplished builders without scaring off novices.  If anything, I'm sure we can all agree that locking a model's feet together isn't the way to go.

I will certainly agree that locking the feet together and/or locking the feet to a preset base are dismal ways to go.  I think having nice, solid joints in the minis that are easily discerned and give plenty of surface area for gluing are a great start for making a nice compromise in mini complexity.  Even if my arch-nemesis, the dreaded ball-joint, HATES taking glue . . . as long as it's broad enough and big enough to give a solid working surface and some flexibility in pose, then I think that is another pretty fair move in construction.

On the other hand . . . don't give me a mech with tiny little ball-joints that don't actually give me any real pose flexibility.  Take those joints and either make the mini pre-fused, or use a flat joint or straight socket that's easier to assemble.  Some examples (that I've assembled) are the Firebee (only a right hand and head with tiny ball joints and the rest has a forced pose), and Flashfire (odd oval joints that force a static pose).  In the other extreme (reseen Phoenix Hawk), having so many tiny ball joints with such a tiny contact area to give extreme flexibility in poses makes it a flat out nightmare for anyone without a surgeon's nerves to assemble.

I understand that casting limitations, physical design, and cost come into play for how a mini is cast and needs to be assembled.  At the same token, the two extremes in a lot of the older minis don't help the debate any and hopefully newer minis are able to be cast in such a way to find that compromise you're looking for.

[DarkSpade]

What you're talking about with adding pegs, I think you're referring to pinning.  That's where you drill a small hole into each side (with a pin-vice using jewelry drills), and glue in a pin (again, probably holding the pin with the pin-vice for easy insertion and steadier grip) that will go into both holes and strengthen the joint.  I think the big advantage of a lot of the minis with flat surfaces is that they're very easy to pin, once you've decided on your pose.

He's not referring to pinning.  He's a sculptor.  He's talking about sculpting the mech model so one piece has a peg and the other has a hole for that peg.  Like a built in pin.   

That's kind of like what I was saying in my first post, but instead of just having a normal peg like this O , you'd have a peg like this O- .  The piece with the hole for the peg would have a slot for that extra bit.  Novice builders would be able to line up their pieces easily for the default pose while expert builders could just file off that extra bit or even that whole peg if they wanted.

Pinning a ball-joint can sometimes be a pain (at least for me), because I don't have the super-steady hands to make sure the pin-vice doesn't slip when attempting to drill on the curved surface.  Of course . . . my nerves are friggin shot.

I recently found a great trick for that.  Take your knife and place it sharp edge on the tip of the ball joint.  Make sure it's centered then rock the blade back and forth once or twice while pushing into the ball joint.  Don't go nuts with this.  You're not trying to cut the joint in half.  Just notch it a bit.   Make another notch perpendicular to the first.    If you do it right, the notches will cross right where your intend to put the pin and the crossed notch will keep your drill bit from sliding around when you start drilling.

[Sereglach]

He's not referring to pinning.  He's a sculptor.

Ahhh, I did not realize he is an official sculptor.  Thanks for the clarification, and the idea of the 0- type joints does sound pretty nice.

I recently found a great trick for that.  Take your knife and place it sharp edge on the tip of the ball joint.  Make sure it's centered then rock the blade back and forth once or twice while pushing into the ball joint.  Don't go nuts with this.  You're not trying to cut the joint in half.  Just notch it a bit.   Make another notch perpendicular to the first.    If you do it right, the notches will cross right where your intend to put the pin and the crossed notch will keep your drill bit from sliding around when you start drilling.

Sounds like a good idea.  I'll have to try and give it a shot next time I go to put a pin into a ball-joint.  I've also found the quick scrape of a file to roughen up the surfaces does a nice job of helping glue take and strengthening a joint, too.  It saves my shot nerves a pinning process.

[mechwarriorgarya]

Probably find myself in the in-between camp. I don't mind figures with multiple pieces for posing options. The only time it becomes an issue is if the torso, pelvis,and legs are all separate pieces. That is usually the point where I start pulling my hair out. The only time this dose not become a issue if there is clear slots or peg/ball joints on the pelvis for the legs, then it very easy, but if there is no clear joint, it's all down hill.

I've been assembling and painting figures and models for around 20 years now and I have just got to a point in the past few years where my work actually looks like I know what I'm doing. But there are times where a multi-part metal figure will make me feel like a complete novice again. In the midst of that nightmare, you just wish all you had to do was attach an arm or two and be done with it.  :P

[Gromik]

I'm torn.  I love the Dragon II for its plethora of posing options, but I was quite frustrated by the three-part legs.  It was difficult to settle on positions for the upper-to-lower leg connection because I couldn't easily dry-fit both legs to the hips to see how the final pose would look.  I ended up with a running pose that's far too level (think trying to run with your spine perpendicular to the ground - it just looks odd).  That said, being able to put the arms in any position I wanted was awesome!  I'll try to do better with the legs on the second one I'm assembling.

Is it safe to say we all want a somewhat dynamic pose, whether it be a single-piece sculpt (Javelin, Whitworth) or a multi-part, highly pose-able beast (Dragon II)? 

[worktroll]

For me, yes. Parade stance looks wrong to me on the table. Imagine a battle swirling on, with an old Dragon standing there (ignored by all) saying "What am I, chopped liver?"

Just working on a Tai-Sho. Nice mini. One piece base/feet/legs/waist, walking pose. The arms are separate but only from below the elbow. But by turning the torso I got a nicely dynamic pose.

I think legs are much more of a problem than arms, because legs have to support the weight of the mini under handling & use. And as Gromik rightly points out, you can't really get the pose right beforehand - you have to commit to at least one leg before you can see what the end result is.

[Domi1981]

Why can´t someone already post a picture of the mini?

By the way I really don´t get people whining about putting a drop of glue on some pieces of metal and holding them in position for 10 seconds. The Thundebolt for example was a real joy since it gave so many cool options. I mean, yeah most of us got older during the time but I would guess that we are not all tottery old women :D. I mean, Its just about 10 pieces that are already pretty good alignedby design. Its not as if one has to use a complete drilling set like in the old Ral Partha days

[Nightlord01]

I'm going through the hell of another reseen Thud. WIll be interesting to see if this is the first mini I make unintentionally doing the Zorba dance or not ... ;)

How'd you go with this one WT?

I had great pain and joy with mine by using a jewellers saw and cutting away the ball joints at the hips, separating the thighs from the waist and then rebuilding the joints with green stuff.

A single pin through the centre holds both tight. I faffed the pose a little bit by making it lean a little far forward, but am much happier with the mini in general.

Can dig it out and take a photo if you want, I got half way through painting it before I suffered a massive attack of disinterest. It's now in a container waiting for my interest in painting to come back, oh, and for my toddler to grow enough to not destroy it. :P

[worktroll]

I'd love a photo, thanks. You can see what I managed to do in my 12th Atrean Dragoons thread.

It's OK, but, yes, I too felt it was not really worth the trouble. The reposed plastic Orion took maybe 5% as much effort.

[Nightlord01]

I'd love a photo, thanks. You can see what I managed to do in my 12th Atrean Dragoons thread.

It's OK, but, yes, I too felt it was not really worth the trouble. The reposed plastic Orion took maybe 5% as much effort.

Here's how I did mine:

Used a jewellers saw to remove the thighs from the waist.
Filed down the sides of the cod piece and thighs.
Used green stuff to build up some more modest ball joints on the inside of the top of the thighs.
Drilled a single hole through the cod piece.
Glued one leg together and to the base.
Pinned both thighs to the cod piece.
Assemble second leg.

With the ankle ball join, you have decent posability. You aren't shoe horned into having the town bike look on your Tbolt. :)