Author Topic: ’Mech of the Week: BZK-F* Hollander II  (Read 7203 times)

Kotetsu

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’Mech of the Week: BZK-F* Hollander II
« on: 09 January 2015, 12:28:29 »
’Mech of the Week: BZK-F* Hollander II

Hollander II. Slight upgrade of the Hollander. At 45 tons, ten tons heavier than its predecessor. And one that while striving to correct some of the Hollander’s flaws, may have stumbled back into the same issues.

Production also having the deal with issues ranging from the Jade Falcon Incursion to the Blakist Jihad.

Details of the Hollander II are from Technical Readout: 3055, though under the Hollander entry.

As with the later Blitzkrieg, it appears the first Hollander IIs were a reaction to the Falcon raid on Coventry. Notably, the part where the Jade Turkeys attacked and captured the Coventry Metal Works plant. The CMW defense forces on planet had an inordinate number of Hollanders, and their deficiencies were exposed in vivid form against the Clan units.

Rather quickly, the first BZK-F5 arrived. Entering service in 3058 (the same year the Falcons attacked), this model basically tries to deal with the main complaint from the BZK-F3 Hollander: it was a one-trick pony. It used the same endo-steel skeleton, though bulked up, and is powered by a 225-rated engine to maintain its forebear’s speed profile. It also maintains the same ten heat sinks (not that it needs more). Weapons consist of a right torso-mounted Gauss Rifle, supplied with two tons of ammunition, a medium laser in the left torso, and a 2-pack Streak SRM launcher placed under the medium laser. One ton of ammunition supplies the Streak. Six tons of ferro-fibrous armor give the design 69% of maximum protection, laid out in an 8, 15/6, 13/6, 10, 10 pattern (head, center front/rear, side front/rear, arms, legs respectively).

I must admit I am unsure how popular this machine was with the FedCommies. Mercenaries probably didn’t mind it, but then most mercenaries will take anything offered to them. Shortly thereafter, the Second Star League went off to destroy the Smoke Jaguars. During that lull, Katherine Steiner-Davion took advantage of her brother’s absence to take over the Federated Suns.

Also taking place during that time was the beginnings of the research into what would become the Heavy Gauss Rifle. Looking for test beds, the High Command chose the Hollander II for one. Around 3061, the BZK-F7 arrived, replacing all the weaponry of the -F5 for that massive weapon, fed by three tons of ammunition. A half ton of armor was also removed, and the armor redistributed to an 8, 13/4, 10/4, 9, 14 pattern.

The Jihad seems to have put an end to production of the Hollander II. At least based on the Objectives volume for the Lyran state, neither the Hollander nor the Hollander II were being produced, so the lines that had produced those machines likely had been casualties in the fighting.

Using a Hollander II starts with bringing friends. Notably friends that can attract more attention than you do. And since your profile is like that of the Hollander, you will be attracting a lot of fire. And if you are using a -F7, as soon as you open fire, more attention will come your way. Frankly, your best bet is to use the Hollander II as part of your gun line. Trying to fight up-close will only expose you to enemies who are likely better armed than you. And that goes double if he’s Clan.

Fighting one is a bit clearer. Neutralize the threat as quickly as you can. Long-range weapons are nice, since returning fire is never a bad thing. Do take stock of his friends. You will have to deal with them, too. The BZK-F5 can only shrug off a Gauss Rifle slug to its chest (though there won’t be armor after) and the BZK-F7 is even more fragile. This makes targeting locations somewhat superfluous. Though, if you insist of doing so, the center torso will deal with the engine, and the right torso is where the main gun is. Note that since neither Hollander II uses CASE, hitting that gun will quickly turn the BattleMech into a pretty explosion.

As noted earlier, it is a bit of a mystery if the Hollander II has managed to make it into the Dark Ages. I mean it is unlikely to be in numbers, as it does not appear on any RAT in either the Era Report for the Dark Ages or the Field Manual for 3145. (Then again with the sheer number of new designs…) Mercenaries might still be using them (since as long as a design exists, there should be a mercenary company somewhere that will use it). It is even possible that the Lyrans have put it back into production. Still, it is a design that needs to be noted. If only because you really need to know what you may be facing.

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: BZK-F* Hollander II
« Reply #1 on: 09 January 2015, 13:01:28 »
IMO it sort of took the place of why we never got a Gauss Rifle armed Hunchback . . . even if it is weaker on the protection side than the Hunchback.  You also hit it for the same reason, to easily knock a headcapper out of the game.

The original Hollander ended up widespread so perhaps the II just followed the trail blazed by the original.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: BZK-F* Hollander II
« Reply #2 on: 09 January 2015, 13:19:00 »
The F7 has become my favorite mech design in recent years.  Leave it to the Lyrans to build a 5/8 HGR medium.  The best part is the 4 rear side torso armor.  The F7 can fail a fall check caused by the HGR, fall on it's back and blow the HGR.  A real work of engineering genius.

And yet, there's no arguing with the utility of a quick Heavy Gauss Rifle.
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Empyrus

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: BZK-F* Hollander II
« Reply #3 on: 09 January 2015, 13:36:06 »
The F7 has become my favorite mech design in recent years.  Leave it to the Lyrans to build a 5/8 HGR medium.  The best part is the 4 rear side torso armor.  The F7 can fail a fall check caused by the HGR, fall on it's back and blow the HGR.  A real work of engineering genius.

And yet, there's no arguing with the utility of a quick Heavy Gauss Rifle.
I wonder if it would be wiser to make a quick HGR-carrier vehicle rather than stuff the thing into a mech. At very least, not into mech not equipped with jump jets. Unfortunately stuffing those into this is impossible without sacrificing too much armor and/or speed.

While i'm not a fan of Hollanders (Hollander III UAC/10 variant aside), the F7 is admirable despite its obvious flaws. There is something suitably quirky in carrying a single HGR, despite being a one trick pony (i don't usually care for one trick ponies, they don't feel quirky usually).

Is it fair to call the Hollander II F7 a "mech-destroyer"-class mech? Compare to tank destroyers (/assault guns) (real or fictional)?

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: BZK-F* Hollander II
« Reply #4 on: 09 January 2015, 13:44:55 »
As I said in the Hollander's write up, the 5F is good in Alpha Strike, but in the case, the II gains ten PV for two extra armor, two extra externals, and one point of firepower at medium and short range.  Honestly I don't know if it's worth it.  The original Hollander is a cheap 2 points of firepower down at all ranges.  It will be ignored because of the lack of head capping in that version of the game.  This means you can be a sniper and be relatively ignored until later in the game.


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Re: ’Mech of the Week: BZK-F* Hollander II
« Reply #5 on: 09 January 2015, 14:01:19 »
I wonder if it would be wiser to make a quick HGR-carrier vehicle rather than stuff the thing into a mech. At very least, not into mech not equipped with jump jets. Unfortunately stuffing those into this is impossible without sacrificing too much armor and/or speed.

The problem there is that HGRs cannot be mounted in turrets.  That means that the vehicle would have to point the nose at the enemy.  Since vehicles are more prone to motive hits the novilty of a 5/8 movement profile diminishes.  That being said, there is a Manteueffel config that does exactly that.

There are also other advantages to being a mech in this case.  The mech's height and ability to travel through different terrain features is a marked improvement over a vehicle.  The torso twist also allows a greater firing arc.

Quote
While i'm not a fan of Hollanders (Hollander III UAC/10 variant aside), the F7 is admirable despite its obvious flaws. There is something suitably quirky in carrying a single HGR, despite being a one trick pony (i don't usually care for one trick ponies, they don't feel quirky usually).

I don't mind if the one trick is potent enough.  A 5/8 HGR mech is effective enough in my mind.

Quote
Is it fair to call the Hollander II F7 a "mech-destroyer"-class mech? Compare to tank destroyers (/assault guns) (real or fictional)?

Yeah, I suppose so.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: BZK-F* Hollander II
« Reply #6 on: 09 January 2015, 14:27:38 »
The problem there is that HGRs cannot be mounted in turrets.  That means that the vehicle would have to point the nose at the enemy.  Since vehicles are more prone to motive hits the novilty of a 5/8 movement profile diminishes.  That being said, there is a Manteueffel config that does exactly that.

There are also other advantages to being a mech in this case.  The mech's height and ability to travel through different terrain features is a marked improvement over a vehicle.  The torso twist also allows a greater firing arc.

Sure, the firing arcs are more restricted but the thing is better armored than a comparable mech, despite the motive system vulnerability. Didn't think of the worse firing arcs but i figured that it isn't as big deal. At least, not before the motive system's busted...
Also didn't think of the mech's height giving it advantage. It is good, yes.
Still can't but wish it had some jump jets, would make traveling through difficult terrain even easier. But that would require bumping the mass up a bit. Probably could try coming up with something...

Overall i feel vehicles are better suited for single-non-energy-weapon platforms despite their issues. But i cannot deny BZK-F7 has style.

Oh, and by the way, what's with the model number? BZK? Blitzkrieg? I would have had Hollander to be HLND or something like that.

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: BZK-F* Hollander II
« Reply #7 on: 09 January 2015, 14:40:37 »
@ Kotetsu, Great article Thanks!. I've always loved the Hollander II from when I first saw the RS in Record Sheets : Upgrades, 'am I wrong in thinking this 'Mech was a 'Legacy' design from one of the Computer games brought over to (as it was then) CBT ?, either way a vast improvement on the "basic" Hollander 'Mech.

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: BZK-F* Hollander II
« Reply #8 on: 09 January 2015, 15:39:31 »
Overall i feel vehicles are better suited for single-non-energy-weapon platforms despite their issues. But i cannot deny BZK-F7 has style.

Style in spades.  It is a very Lyran design to me.  Not just because it has a big gun on a medium mech.  You could cram a HGR on a Hunchback if needed.  What makes it so Lyran to me is that they put that big gun on a 5/8 45 tonner.  The LAAF Lightning Companies have a tremendous selection of medium and light mechs to call upon.  Having a heavy gun like the F7's keep pace is a valuable asset to a formation committed to mobile warfare.  It isn't the fastest platform, but one that outpaces the 4/6s and 3/5s that normally haul HGRs.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: BZK-F* Hollander II
« Reply #9 on: 09 January 2015, 16:03:03 »
I think it has style because it is a mere big gun on legs. That it is a fast BFG on legs is even better.

And that made me realize why the model designation is wrong. It should not be BZK (obviously going for Blitzkrieg), rather it should be BFG...

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: BZK-F* Hollander II
« Reply #10 on: 09 January 2015, 18:12:51 »
The "BZK" designation is from TRO:3055, where you also have the MR, ALM, and MDG series, despite having no name relationship with the 'Mech.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: BZK-F* Hollander II
« Reply #11 on: 09 January 2015, 19:45:17 »
I think the vehicle is a better idea, especially as armored motive systems become more common.  The height thing is a wash as it allows the vehicle to get better cover than a mech would have . . . and on something like this that is a target, superior armor and being able to hide behind L1 terrain make it a winner.

We need Lyran purchased Predators refit with HGR! . . . or something with a power reverse!
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: BZK-F* Hollander II
« Reply #12 on: 09 January 2015, 20:45:16 »
I think it has style because it is a mere big gun on legs. That it is a fast BFG on legs is even better.

And that made me realize why the model designation is wrong. It should not be BZK (obviously going for Blitzkrieg), rather it should be BFG...
or it could be that the Hollander was a early design work model of the Blitzkreig, and when they rushed it to production to meet the clans they decided to give it another name. then used the Hollander's battlefield performance to inform the development of the actual blitzkreig..

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: BZK-F* Hollander II
« Reply #13 on: 09 January 2015, 21:57:58 »
Could also be that they first wanted to name it "Bazooka"

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: BZK-F* Hollander II
« Reply #14 on: 10 January 2015, 07:31:27 »
am I wrong in thinking this 'Mech was a 'Legacy' design from one of the Computer games brought over to (as it was then) CBT ?

No, you are absolutely right. The BZK-F5, along with the CN10-B Centurion and the JM7-D JagerMech were ported in from MechCommander. O0

...now if we'd just gotten that PPC-armed Firestarter...
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: BZK-F* Hollander II
« Reply #15 on: 10 January 2015, 17:41:57 »
You know I always meant to do an ONN variant of this that removed the SRM-2 for CASE and another laser. The Streak 2 has limited use on a sniper machine.

Maybe someday.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: BZK-F* Hollander II
« Reply #16 on: 10 January 2015, 23:51:11 »
You know I always meant to do an ONN variant of this that removed the SRM-2 for CASE and another laser. The Streak 2 has limited use on a sniper machine.

Maybe someday.

A Flamer (or maybe an ER Flamer these days) would be a better choice than a laser.  The Hollander should never be anywhere close to in range of those secondary weapons so their utility is always dubious, but a Flamer can be a lifesaver by creating smokescreens to help cover for the 'Mech's pitiful armor.  It also lets you toast conventional infantry which is never a bad thing, and there are a million and one other uses for fire if you get creative.


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Re: ’Mech of the Week: BZK-F* Hollander II
« Reply #17 on: 11 January 2015, 11:27:40 »
A Flamer (or maybe an ER Flamer these days) would be a better choice than a laser.  The Hollander should never be anywhere close to in range of those secondary weapons so their utility is always dubious, but a Flamer can be a lifesaver by creating smokescreens to help cover for the 'Mech's pitiful armor.  It also lets you toast conventional infantry which is never a bad thing, and there are a million and one other uses for fire if you get creative.

Agree with everything here- a laser is never a bad thing, mind you, but here a flamer would make a whole lot of sense- or at least a small pulse laser, in case of infantry ambushes. But prefer the flamer, and an ER flamer even more than that. And just about anything over a Streak SRM-2, honestly.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: BZK-F* Hollander II
« Reply #18 on: 11 January 2015, 11:46:32 »
Drop the streak rack for twin standards, and you can reliably create your own cover with smokescreens. You do it right, you can enjoy the movement benefits of cavalry tactics, while having cover as if you'd plonked yourself down in a wooded hidey-hole.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: BZK-F* Hollander II
« Reply #19 on: 11 January 2015, 13:17:11 »
I think that a MASC would be a better idea, instead. Smokescreens and torching infantry are good things, but being able to reach a +4 modifier from time to time is better.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: BZK-F* Hollander II
« Reply #20 on: 11 January 2015, 14:18:47 »
I think that a MASC would be a better idea, instead. Smokescreens and torching infantry are good things, but being able to reach a +4 modifier from time to time is better.

There is room for two systems if you pull the laser which is definitely not a bad idea here for the reasons listed above, and Clan tech is an option in the Dark Age which would let you carry everything with room left over for more goodies.


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Re: ’Mech of the Week: BZK-F* Hollander II
« Reply #21 on: 11 January 2015, 17:57:23 »
Fast moving Gauss sniper is not a bad thing, the Heavy Gauss variant... well, it's faster than the Urbie :D I honestly rather see a Gauss on the Blitzkrieg as well.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: BZK-F* Hollander II
« Reply #22 on: 12 January 2015, 01:21:05 »
Gauss on a Blitzkrieg....yeeessss  >:D

But I digress from the topic at hand.

Never really used the Hollander much less the Hollander II but I did play a MM game against one as a bot and it did pretty good sniper damage to two of my heavies before my fast lights and mediums swarmed it and took it out in one turn. If it had proper support, I could see it lasting longer and being useful on the battlefield. Still, I prefer the new ERPPC Hollander III if I want a Hollander at all....
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: BZK-F* Hollander II
« Reply #23 on: 12 January 2015, 08:38:52 »
I think that a MASC would be a better idea, instead. Smokescreens and torching infantry are good things, but being able to reach a +4 modifier from time to time is better.

Since Hollander-series Mechs tend to excel at the 'shoot 'n scoot' tactic- fire a couple of times, then find a new position to engage from for the next shot or two- MASC would be great here. Use it to reach a spot, let it cool down while you engage a target, and by the time you need to move the MASC is ready to work again. I like this idea a lot more than I expected I would at a glance, nice thinking!
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: BZK-F* Hollander II
« Reply #24 on: 12 January 2015, 19:10:58 »
As I mentioned in the Hollander thread, I think the BZK-F5 is a much better execution of the low cost Gauss platform concept that the lighter F3.  It might not have the same "They crammed a what into that thing!" factor, but it actually has enough armour to take a couple of hits and functioning alongside low end troopers like the Watchman or Sentry can provide some potent over-watch support without breaking the bank.

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