Author Topic: VotW: Cardinal Transport  (Read 15601 times)

JadeHellbringer

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VotW: Cardinal Transport
« on: 18 January 2015, 13:12:24 »


It's another vehicle by request! Hey, did you know that if you request a vehicle, you could be next? Well, not NEXT, because I have another few requests ahead of you, but you'd be on the list! And lists are exciting! So get on there with your request! Do it! Do it NOW!!!

So. We haven't gone into the skies in a while, and this seems like a good opportunity to discuss a big, beefy menace brought to us by the Sea Foxes. Need to move a whole lot of stuff in a hurry, but have it get there safely- and, oh, maybe make life miserable on your enemy on the way there? Stay tuned, because your ship has come in. Let's look into the Cardinal.

Built by the Foxes and named for a now-defunct baseball team from Terra (citation needed), the idea to the Cardinal is to haul battle armor. Not that it can't carry anything else, mind you, but a Clan VTOL with a ten ton cargo bay... let's be honest, you know what that's for. Anything else it does is a secondary role- but as it turns out, it's pretty good at other roles too. It's a beast, used mostly by the Jade Falcons, Republic, and the Foxes themselves. If you like to move infantry via VTOL, this is going to make you forget the Karnov ever existed.

Cardinals start with a 215 XL engine, an expense the Clans have rarely shown interest in for vehicles in the past but which the Foxes likely don't much mind. And the results are pretty special- the enormous 50-ton aircraft zips around at an 8/12 speed, maybe not barn-burning in the way an attack VTOL can move, but pretty fantastic compared to many battle armor APCs- and of course, being an aircraft, it can avoid the kind of terrain problems that can stop a Svantovit in its tracks (so to speak). Not much point to an APC that isnt' much faster than the guys it's carrying, so here the Cardinal shows a big advantage over other BA taxis.

Another important thing to a battle armor taxi is surviving to drop the kids off- dying before you get to the field is lame. So... be able to take a couple of hits on the way, right? Oh, but VTOLs are always thinly armored and can't take any real damage. Oh, wait, this has FIVE TONS of ferro fibrous armor, so take that idea and stuff it. The front of the Cardinal can take a pair of Gauss hits and STILL not break the armor, with thirty-one points up front! On a helicopter! Each side and the rear can take 21 points, enough to hold down an AC-20 hit. That's RIDICULOUS for a VTOL. The rotors have the standard two points, but you know the drill- can't armor that up. The rest means that dropping a Cardinal is VERY difficult- small arms and SRMs are almost useless, and even heavy weapons will take a few tries. Don't try that with a Karnov.

Now, usually you need gunships to clean out the LZ before the transports arrive (Cobras clearing out Hueys, for those who watch Vietnam movies). But... well, why bother with gunships? The mighty Cardinal will just do it all. An LB-2X in the nose starts the show, providing an amazingly long-range peppering that can clear light targets without any return fire being able to respond- and thanks to the bonuses against aircraft, enemy VTOLs go away quickly as well. That's an intriguing weapon to mount here- the author would have preferred a large pulse laser, but in tests the LB was far more useful than one would think. One ton of ammo supplies the gun, which should always be cluster because of course it should. Backing the cannon is an LRM-5 with one ton of ammo (remember, it's Clan, so no minimum ranges!), a handy option for a little additional pepper. And in case of foot soldiers, break out the twin AP Gauss in the nose as well (also sharing one ton). That's a pretty hefty and useful arsenal for a transport VTOL, though lacking in solid punch. (That pulse laser sure would be nice, right?) And of course, the main weapon is that ten-ton infantry bay- two points of battle armor can really make someone's life miserable in the right places.

Republic forces brewed up their own variant to meet their own needs- this version expands the bay to twelve tons (aka, three squads of BA), but to do this it drops the weapons to gain an MML-5 with a ton of ammo and three Clan-style small pulse lasers, all in the nose. Not quite as awe-inspiring, but handy nonetheless- and twelve tons of infantry? Just wow. Considering the vast array of BA the Republic has access to, that really opens up options for RAF commanders to set up some very nasty tricks.

So, there you have it, your new favorite transport VTOL- not cheap, compared to a Karnov, but... what a beast, right? Give it a try and let me know how you like it, and be back here next week for more.
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Baron RedSkull

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Re: VotW: Cardinal Transport
« Reply #1 on: 18 January 2015, 13:37:13 »
I love the Cardinal. The standard version works well with my Marian forces since a Marian BA squad is 5 troopers just like the clans. Just like you said in the article. Why go back to the Karnov? I still might pair it with and escort gunship for added support. I think my favorite tactic is to get in, drop of the BA, and return the the edge of the map where I can use the LB-2X and LRMs from a safe distance. The RAF making their own design to accommodate 3 BA squads is just the bee's knees and I added one to my force as soon as IWM released it.
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Re: VotW: Cardinal Transport
« Reply #2 on: 18 January 2015, 16:07:59 »
The Cardinal might have been my favorite unit out of 3145:Mercs. A double-point BA transport available to anyone? Yes, please.

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Re: VotW: Cardinal Transport
« Reply #3 on: 18 January 2015, 16:15:28 »
So, I'm going to invoke the exact opposite of Apollo's Law with this thing.

I wish it had an IS AC/2 and an extra ton of ammo.  Let's experience some of that alternate munitions goodness.  I'd drop the LRM 5 for that, and keep the AP Gauss for anti-infantry work.
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Re: VotW: Cardinal Transport
« Reply #4 on: 18 January 2015, 17:15:10 »
but you'd be on the list! And lists are exciting!
You seem excited by lists. Do you have a dragon? You should have a dragon to maintain your lists.



I have to say that I am not that excited by the Cardinal (bird? priest? rule?). Mainly because it is too slow. The old Anhur was always too slow to change altitude and maintain defensive MPs and the Cardinal is the same. And combat dropping is not going to happen with the assault suits you know that this VTOL is going to carry.

I would have given up guns and armour to make it work. Especially armour given the old rotor vulnerability.

Looks like the Cardinal is a MW:DA design. Does this effect the weapon load out?

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Re: VotW: Cardinal Transport
« Reply #5 on: 18 January 2015, 17:27:31 »
  Many thanks for the article! I love the art of the TRO but the miniature is somewhat disapointing. The unit is awesome. Large VTOLs are great units and there are 2 profiles they can fulfill very well, the strike chopper (Kamakiri) and the heavy transport (Cardinal). The Cardinal is fast, well armored and has a huge cargo bay. It fulfills the role in a magnificent way. 

  Oddly enough it can do attack roles very well. Hellbie is spot on with the LBX2. It is very useful against another VTOLs and WiGEs, the other contenders in transport duty. The LRM5 helps in the long range plinking and the APGauss for clearing landing zones. Anyway, a great unit that can be marginally improved (ER Mediums instead of APGauss) and it is highly succcesful.
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Re: VotW: Cardinal Transport
« Reply #6 on: 18 January 2015, 18:28:48 »
OK, two things. At 50 tons this is a LARGE vehicle, this means that infantry dismount into the surrounding 6 hexes, NOT the one that the vehicle occupies, meaning that you can unload all 3 BA squads in a single turn.

Why, oh why isn't this an Omni, as that would allow it to carry two more BA squads on the outside.

The RotS has access to RL-10's and those are far better when you want to clear an LZ, and this thing can carry 10.

For killing this thing I'd go with something mounting multiple Narc launchers firing Bola pods which have a 10/36 chance of killing it outright as well as being nasty to 'Mechs

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Re: VotW: Cardinal Transport
« Reply #7 on: 18 January 2015, 18:29:45 »
OK, two things. At 50 tons this is a LARGE vehicle, this means that infantry dismount into the surrounding 6 hexes, NOT the one that the vehicle occupies, meaning that you can unload all 3 BA squads in a single turn.

If you have the MP for it.

Also I don't know if that's for all large vehicles, or just large support vehicles.
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Re: VotW: Cardinal Transport
« Reply #8 on: 18 January 2015, 20:56:59 »
Mmm...Cardinals...LB-2 for anti-VTOL work, LRM for dropping smoke cover, APGRs for clearing the LZ...nothing else I'd add to a heavy slick. {>{>

OK, two things. At 50 tons this is a LARGE vehicle, this means that infantry dismount into the surrounding 6 hexes, NOT the one that the vehicle occupies, meaning that you can unload all 3 BA squads in a single turn.

Heh. Hehe. Eheheh. HehehehahahaHAHAHAA!!! >:D
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Re: VotW: Cardinal Transport
« Reply #9 on: 18 January 2015, 21:15:21 »
Sadly, per TW page 225, it's only large support vees and DropShips that applies to.


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Re: VotW: Cardinal Transport
« Reply #10 on: 18 January 2015, 21:47:41 »
Sadly, per TW page 225, it's only large support vees and DropShips that applies to.

Thank you, I was looking for that earlier because that didn't sound right to me when it was discussed earlier- but I couldn't find it!
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Re: VotW: Cardinal Transport
« Reply #11 on: 18 January 2015, 21:48:51 »
Well, blargh.

Cardinals are still awesome. O0
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Re: VotW: Cardinal Transport
« Reply #12 on: 18 January 2015, 22:15:53 »
Is the Cardinal not large, and a support vehicle? 50 tons is larger than conventional VTOLs can be built, still, no?
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Re: VotW: Cardinal Transport
« Reply #13 on: 18 January 2015, 22:31:46 »
Is the Cardinal not large, and a support vehicle? 50 tons is larger than conventional VTOLs can be built, still, no?

Superheavy, not support.
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Re: VotW: Cardinal Transport
« Reply #14 on: 18 January 2015, 22:48:00 »
What Scotty said. It's a superheavy combat VTOL, not a Large Support one. I don't think superheavy VTOLs are treated as Large anyways, since they still aren't all that big compared to other combat vees. I could be very wrong on that last bit and don't actually care enough about the subject to look it up, though it is supported by the fact that it still gets a standard record sheet vs a superheavy one.
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Re: VotW: Cardinal Transport
« Reply #15 on: 18 January 2015, 23:07:04 »
Okay then, could the Cardinal carry cargo externally as well as 10 tons inside? Then we just sling the BA Transport omni-trailer under it.
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Re: VotW: Cardinal Transport
« Reply #16 on: 18 January 2015, 23:26:37 »
I'm sure that SuperHeavy Combat Vehicles are Large Vehicles, but VTOL's slip through a crack because their so small, probably needs to be made an official question

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Re: VotW: Cardinal Transport
« Reply #17 on: 19 January 2015, 00:25:36 »
I'd defer to TacOps p. 378
Quote
Super-Heavy Combat Vehicle Game Rules
Super-Heavy Combat Vehicles of all kinds follow the standard
rules for gameplay as their standard weight relatives (though
Super-Heavy Ground Vehicles use the Large Ground Support
Vehicle Hit Location Table; see p. 206, TW), but use the appropriate
Super-Heavy Vehicle Record Sheet to track damage and
determine armor facings.
I take that that to include the standard weight rules for disembarking infantry.

Great article as always JH. While I haven't played with the standard model much, I quickly fell in the love with the Republic model. I've played with the idea of loading some Thunder LRMs in that MML launcher to hem in an opponent before raining suits from on high but haven't had the chance to give it a go.

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Re: VotW: Cardinal Transport
« Reply #18 on: 19 January 2015, 08:02:14 »
Okay then, could the Cardinal carry cargo externally as well as 10 tons inside? Then we just sling the BA Transport omni-trailer under it.
I don't see why you couldn't, but you're going to be eating into speed that way, and it's harder to unload those infantry. Units carried as external cargo aren't 'active' so you'd need to unload the cargo first. If you're going to go that route, I'd jury rig a lift hoist onto it.

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Re: VotW: Cardinal Transport
« Reply #19 on: 19 January 2015, 08:05:08 »
Plus, wouldn't it leave them without the protection of the Cardinal's armor? That seems like a good way to get a bunch of your crunchies vaped for no reason.


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Re: VotW: Cardinal Transport
« Reply #20 on: 19 January 2015, 09:56:11 »
I would imagine that if the outside crunchies were, well, crunched, you'd still have the ones in the bay.

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Re: VotW: Cardinal Transport
« Reply #21 on: 19 January 2015, 11:44:28 »
It'll take a lot to take down, but I'm not sold on it.  Just a little slow for my tastes, but I run Cavalry and Ripper Royals' that my Lyrans are making/buying...

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Re: VotW: Cardinal Transport
« Reply #22 on: 19 January 2015, 16:16:11 »
This is a very nice vehicle.  It has the armor and cargo to be a great reusable BA transport, and the focus on long range guns means it can fight without getting blown to pieces in short order (even with that heavy armor it would die fairly quickly in close combat).

The really interesting thing I noticed that has not really been discussed is the problem that 2-X poses for ASFs.  While something like the Ryoken II is obviously vastly superior to the Cardinal as an anti-ASF platform, the Cardinal is more than capable of knocking nearby ASFs out of the sky and very likely to be operating in groups, especially when not engaged in direct combat.  This means ASFs will need to think very carefully before messing with Cardinals and any other VTOLs operating with them so you may be able to forgo a fighter screen for your supply VTOLs which frees your own ASFs up for other work.

Mmm...Cardinals...LB-2 for anti-VTOL work, LRM for dropping smoke cover, APGRs for clearing the LZ...nothing else I'd add to a heavy slick. {>{>

How about a Fluid Gun? >:D


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Re: VotW: Cardinal Transport
« Reply #23 on: 19 January 2015, 18:29:17 »
Maybe... The LB2x is still just doing 1 or 2 point hits. So you are trying for lawn darts.
ASF are limited to straffing, strikes and bombing against VTOLs which will make things awkward. It all comes down to altitude I guess.

Against VTOLs there is the rotor weakness. 1 or 2 points at a time.

Groups are interesting. These are 50 ton VTOLs. How common are they? After all the equivalent 100 ton 'Mechs are notoriously uncommon. OTOH hover tanks seem to be fairly common at 50 tons, if only because people need numbers in games for infantry transports.

It'll take a lot to take down, but I'm not sold on it.  Just a little slow for my tastes, but I run Cavalry and Ripper Royals' that my Lyrans are making/buying...
A wise man on these boards once said 10/15 should be the minimum for VTOLs. Flank speed hammers VTOLs in lots of ways so the high cruise speed becomes necessary.

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Re: VotW: Cardinal Transport
« Reply #24 on: 19 January 2015, 19:23:40 »
Maybe... The LB2x is still just doing 1 or 2 point hits. So you are trying for lawn darts.
ASF are limited to straffing, strikes and bombing against VTOLs which will make things awkward. It all comes down to altitude I guess.

That was what I was thinking, and you can easily keep the VTOLs close to the ground to make lawn darts more likely.

Quote
Against VTOLs there is the rotor weakness. 1 or 2 points at a time.

Groups are interesting. These are 50 ton VTOLs. How common are they? After all the equivalent 100 ton 'Mechs are notoriously uncommon. OTOH hover tanks seem to be fairly common at 50 tons, if only because people need numbers in games for infantry transports.

Well, logistics is important and the Cardinal can haul a lot of cargo when it is not fighting so it is a good investment in general, especially given that it can fill the escort roll as well.  You also have to consider the fact that you usually have more than 2 or 3 BA units you want to deploy if you have infantry in your force so you will need more than one VTOL to transport them all and you are buying your Cardinals from a vendor who probably has a lot of them anyways.  Then you have to throw in the fact that the Clans are probably going to have them paired in homogenous points at the very least so I think the odds of seeing at least a pair of these working together are fairly good and 4-10 is entirely possible.


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Re: VotW: Cardinal Transport
« Reply #25 on: 19 January 2015, 19:48:02 »
...and you can easily keep the VTOLs close to the ground to make lawn darts more likely.

How does having the VTOL lower down affect the lawn dart roll? To my knowledge, the shooter's elevation has exactly zero impact on an ASF's control rolls. ???
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Re: VotW: Cardinal Transport
« Reply #26 on: 19 January 2015, 20:11:52 »

A wise man on these boards once said 10/15 should be the minimum for VTOLs. Flank speed hammers VTOLs in lots of ways so the high cruise speed becomes necessary.

Oh very wise.  Sure you can't take two BA units with you, but it's harder to pin the faster guys down.

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Re: VotW: Cardinal Transport
« Reply #27 on: 19 January 2015, 20:17:30 »
How does having the VTOL lower down affect the lawn dart roll? To my knowledge, the shooter's elevation has exactly zero impact on an ASF's control rolls. ???

I thought there was a point where the ASF got to fly higher if it was going after a VTOL with significant elevation, although it has been a while since I looked at the rules so it is entirely possible my memory is wrong and I am thinking about the reality of things too much.


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Re: VotW: Cardinal Transport
« Reply #28 on: 19 January 2015, 20:39:01 »
Without a close reading of the rules, elevated ground means the ASF can dive from a higher nominal altitude. What that means if the target is elevated and the ground isn't? Time for a rule lawyer.

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Re: VotW: Cardinal Transport
« Reply #29 on: 19 January 2015, 21:41:54 »
That LRM5? You guys have it wrong. You want smoke in that launcher.  ^-^

 

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