Author Topic: Alpha Strike 'Mech of the Week: Mad Cat Mk IV (Savage Wolf)  (Read 11084 times)

Scotty

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Alpha Strike 'Mech of the Week: Mad Cat Mk IV

Six down, 2968 to go.  Let's add another six to the pile with a review of the Mad Cat Mk IV OmniMech and its two non-Omni PR variants.  Whereas the Mackie was the very first in a long line of walking weapons of war, the Mad Cat Mk IV is a relative infant on the field of battle.  Very nearly seven hundred years separate the two.  The two are further separated by the technological base that each is built under.  The Mad Cat Mk IV (also known as the Savage Wolf) is of Clan construction.  Featuring nearly across the board improvements in all areas, Clan equipment is simply better.



Whereas the Mackie was a lumbering behemoth, an Assault 'Mech in every sense and definition, the Mad Cat Mk IV is an entirely different animal.  Let's do like we did last week and break down the important bits of information on this card.  Size three corresponds to a Heavy 'Mech.  This means your physicals are generally less effective, but not a whole lot else.  Very, very unlike the Mackie, the Mad Cat Mk IV has no reason to resort to physical attacks at all unless forced into it.  At the sort of ranges where physicals are able to occur, the damage it puts out fully doubles the maximum physical damage.  Moving on to speed, we see a (comparatively) blistering 10”.  That's exactly fast enough to hit +2 on the TMM.  The way a 2d6 bell curve works, each and every point is a significant difference in the probability of a hit.  With normal pilots at medium range (typical engagement range) and no intervening terrain, you're generally looking at a 7+ to hit something with a +1 TMM, and an 8+ to hit something with a +2 TMM.  That's a difference of fully 1/6 of the possible results on 2d6 no longer hitting, and a greater than 15% increase in effective longevity of armor in those conditions.  In other conditions, the bonus gets comparatively better or worse; at long range, the relative chance to take damage is almost cut in half.  The attack that doesn't hit will never kill you.

That brings us to the unmodified survivability of the design.  The Mackie, if you recall from last week, had a total of 10 points of armor and 8 points of structure.  That is the toughest it is physically possible to make a 'Mech in the Inner Sphere from the introduction of the Mackie clear until the advent of the Compact Fusion Engine clear in the 3060s – over six hundred years later.  The Mackie outmasses the Mad Cat Mk IV by fully 25 tons.  It would then stand to reason that the maximum amount of armor that the 'Mech in question may mount is substantially lower.  Normally, this is in fact the case.  In the Mk IV's case, it is sadly mistaken.  Nine, count them, nine points of armor shield the tender, delicate two points of structure.  The result is a combined total of 11 points of protection.  That's still fairly low on the whole for a high end Heavy, but the distribution is important.  Armor is better than structure, period.  Hitting the armor does not force a critical hit check.  That means that even well below 30% total health, a Mad Cat Mk IV has yet to take a single critical hit.  That can be the difference in a fight between otherwise similarly matched opponents.

Next, the armament.  Compared to this thing, the Mackie has a handgun to the Mk IV Prime's high powered rifle.  Six points each at short and medium range, and three points at long is fantastic damage for just about anything, at any point along the Sphere's long history.  With no overheat value, it can't pour on the heat in order to pump up the damage, but with values that high you don't really ever need to.  Six points is more than enough to outright kill most Light 'Mechs, and burn through all the armor on a high end medium in one shot.  Three points at long range is enough to make anyone stand up and take notice, while allowing the Prime to respond against any opponent that can shoot at it regardless of range involved, and for good damage.  This 'Mech gets a solid A in the firepower department.

Finally, we get to see the specials.  There's a bunch of stuff there we haven't seen before.  CASE we saw on the Mackie.  It's of... dubious utility on a 'Mech where the first damage to internal structure is fairly likely to kill it anyway, and if it suffers an ammunition hit even the CASE won't save it, because ammunition hits against units with CASE still do an additional point of damage.  Fortunately, Clan 'Mechs get CASE for free, so at least no one wasted any tonnage on it.  ARM, however, is something totally new.  ARM indicates the presence of armored components.  The Alpha Strike effect is that the first time this unit receives damage to the structure, or otherwise would take a critical hit (there area  few infrequent exceptions that can get through armor) it simply doesn't.  The critical hit doesn't happen, no roll is made, do not pass go do not collect $200.  Pretty sweet in concept, but much like CASE it's fairly wasted on the Mk IV.  On the other hand, it makes the Mk IV 100% immune to critical hits inflicted normally – the second crit check will always kill the 'Mech anyway.  That's pretty sweet, actually, and means that the structure on the Mk IV functions identically to armor on another 'Mech.  Moving on we also see CR, which stands for critical-resistant.  We're rapidly approaching the point of redundancy.  Every time the Mk IV receives a critical hit, whether against the structure, or from some kind of weapon effect, CR reduces the critical result by two points, with anything below a 2 considered to be no critical hit.  Considering that ARM makes critical hits all but impossible, CR is 99% useless on this 'Mech.

I'm going to take a brief break and explain how critical hits work, and by extension how CR works normally, and why it's an interesting special that simultaneously protects and somehow further endangers your 'Mech.  In Alpha Strike, critical hits are resolved by a single table that has every critical hit result on it.  Every result from 2 to 12 has a particular effect assigned to it, even if that space is simply “No critical”.  Unless modified by specials, every single hit to the structure of a 'Mech prompts a critical hit roll.  The table is fairly simple, and the effects can actually be seen on the table just under the 'Mech's picture on the Alpha Strike card.

Code: [Select]
2          Ammunition Hit
3          Engine Hit
4          Fire Control Hit
5          No Critical
6          Weapon Hit
7          Movement Hit
8          Weapon Hit
9          No Critical
10         Fire Control Hit
11         Engine Hit
12         Unit Destroyed

Ammunition hits automatically destroy any 'Mech without CASE, CASEII or ENE (all inert weapons, no explosive components on the 'Mech) outright.  Against 'Mechs with CASE, the 'Mech suffers an additional point of damage, which prompts a second critical hit check.  Against 'Mechs with CASEII and ENE, absolutely nothing happens.  Engine hits are nasty, because damaged engines automatically force a unit to generate a point of heat every turn it fires.  A unit must declare not firing in order to sink this heat, which means that a 'Mech whose engine has been hit is operating between 2/3 and 1/2 combat effectiveness at best, and only if you can keep the heat imposed target penalties in check.  Fire Control hits are equally nasty for different reasons.  These hits impose a +2 to hit to all weapon attacks made by the unit.  Two points on a 2d6 bell curve is... significant.  You lose a lot of damage and threat potential with those crits.  Five and nine result in absolutely nothing happening.  In this author's experience, these are the single two most frequent results that ever come up when attacking, and the single two least frequent results when defending.  Weapon hits reduce all damage done by weapons by one point, down to a minimum of zero.  Inconvenient, but unless you're running something with less than stellar offense to begin with it's not a death sentence.  Movement hits, on the other hand, are a death sentence to everything.  Half movement, period.  10” becomes 5”, and the TMM is recalculated with it.  If the Mk IV took a movement hit, the TMM drops straight from +2 to 0, just like that.  Fortunately, such a hit ranks up there in improbability with an offensive PAT safety conversion in American Football.  The rest of the table repeats on the way back up, culminating in the result at 12, “Unit destroyed”.  No arguing, no complaining, it's just gone.  The “golden BB” effect.

Now that that's out of the way, let's take a look at CR again.  It reduces all rolls by two, and treats rolls lower than 2 as no critical hit.  That automatically turns 1/12 of the possible results on 2d6 into additional no hit results.  It also drops the most common single result, 7, down into a no hit slot.  A result of 11 also becomes no hit.  The total increase of the chance of no hit moves from 8 incidences on 2d6 up to a respectable 11 incidences.  It also makes it so that the unit destroyed result is wholly impossible, and the number of possible engine hit results is cut in half.

Those are the benefits.  They're not all good news.  CR also makes the ammunition hit critical occur on a result of four, up from one chance in 36 to a worrying three.  In effect, CR makes a no hit result just more than 27% more likely, and in exchange makes ammunition hits 200% more likely.  Engine hits, interestingly, stay the same likelihood, with four potential chances in 36 to get one.  Overall, CR gives the unit that has it a fairly significant increase in the chances of not taking a critical hit at all, in exchange for a significant increase in the chance of a critical hit that does land to be more devastating.  Jury's out on whether this is worth it or not on a 'Mech that isn't the Mad Cat Mk IV.  ARM and CR together increase the value of the unit by at least one full point (0.5 points for ARM, and 0.25 points for CR, rounding normally), and in this case that point is... questionably spent.

That covers it for critical hits, CR, and ARM.  Fortunately, that'll be the only time I really need to explain anything really out of the ordinary this article, because of a little thing that brings us to the next special: OMNI.  That designates the Mk IV here as an OmniMech.  In Alpha Strike terms, switching between configs is totally irrelevant to the game and takes longer than the game will go.  The real utility is in the ability of units with OMNI to provide free transport to units with MEC (exclusively BattleArmor, as far as I'm aware).  This is the core of any mechanized armored infantry force.  I'll leave the particular implications and uses of that for another article.  This one is bloated enough already (we're still on the first config, guys).

Finally, we have another brand new one.  REAR2/2/-.  This is an interesting one.  Units with the REAR#/#/# special can make a secondary weapon attack in addition to the primary weapon attack, but only against targets in the rear firing arc.  The normal firing arc is an straight line drawn along the rear hexside of the 'Mech, so REAR is actually a pretty damn wide arc to be shooting into!  It's also totally inaccessible to normal attacks because there is no torso twist in Alpha Strike.  The catch is, if you declare a rear attack, you subtract the REAR damage from your normal attack value for your weapon attack.  It's one of very few ways to have more than one attack in a turn, but you can't get any free damage out of it.  The maximum a Mad Cat Mk IV Prime can do in one turn is still six points, except you have the option of splitting it 4/2 between front and rear.  Interestingly, when converting from regular BattleTech to Alpha Strike, rear mounted weapons do not contribute their heat for damage reduction from heat calculations.

Everything on the Prime adds up to a total of 49 points.  Pretty expensive.  There's definitely heftier, but at the armor and structure you're getting those points are obviously tied up in guns.  The guns on the Prime alone, before adding anything else, cost 21 points.  Damn.  Still, in Alpha Strike you definitely get what you pay for.  The Prime also gets the Skirmisher role, which is arguably the most flexible role in the game.  Skirmishers are capable of filling the required roles in Battle, Striker, and Command Lances, while the Mk IV also fits the requirements for a Probe Lance (Pursuit Lance subtype).  It's a versatile machine that goes well just about anywhere.



Whew.  One down, three (technically five) more to go.  Everything should get a lot quicker and simpler to explain past this point.  I'm going to start out by stating what is already an implicit assumption with OmniMechs: most everything stays the same, except the guns and equipment.  All of the base chassis, armor, structure, movement stay the exact same.  With that in mind, imagine I just retyped the entire first three paragraphs of the last config, and we'll get going again.

Where the A differs from the Prime is entirely in the weapons suite.  With a damage profile of six short, five medium, four long, we immediately see that the A is more balanced in its approach than the Prime.  Four long range damage hurts, and the Mk IV's mobility is pretty good for getting to and staying at range against anything that wants to get close to it.  This also, if you've been paying attention, nets one point on the PV (one point from medium, one point to long).  The A also gains OV2, meaning it can add two heat to the scale in order to do two additional damage during an attack.  This makes its short range attack while overheating an absolutely monstrous eight points of damage.  That's enough to one-shot a good portion of the XL engine toting mediums in the game.  And Jagermechs.  Seriously.  Seven points out to medium isn't slouching either, but the overheat penalty is pretty steep.  If you're not absolutely murdering your target, you better make sure you're not going to need to shoot next turn, because you probably won't hit anyway.

An interesting quirk of the AS conversion rules comes up here again.  Remember the ARM and CR points I mentioned earlier?  They cost, between them, 0.75 points.  OV costs 1 point for the first point of OV, and then half a point for each OV point after that.  Points round normally in Alpha Strike, which means that the 0.75 plus 1.5 points here ends up being 2.25 points, which rounds down to 2 points (ignoring a couple other things here, but the 0.25 fraction is the significant part).  This is the exact same result as if the A had OV1, at 1.75 points.  So, you're effectively getting OV2 for free!  I guess that CR is actually worth something after all.  And that's why the A costs the same as the Prime, despite having the potential to do significantly more damage at short and medium range.  The A has no specials that the Prime does not, so our job is done here.  It's still a Skirmisher, so it'll fit all the same places the Prime will.



Here's where things get slightly more interesting again.  This is the second alternate configuration, the B, and everything that held true for the Prime and A in the base chassis holds true here, too.  It's the guns that are primarily different.  And they're actually pretty different this time around, in function if not in damage.  While just barely falling short of the A's damage, at 6/5/3 the B trades the OV capability for FLK2/2/2.  Having that much FLK is honestly pretty impressive, because everything that grants FLK is a big honking ballistic weapon, and getting to 2 in all range bands is pretty punishing in terms of tonnage requirements.  It's three full LB-10Xs worth, or a HAG-30.  When a unit with FLK takes a shot against an airborne target (ASFs, VTOLs, WiGEs), if the shot misses by two points or less, defender takes damage equal to the FLK value.  Given that VTOLs and other flying targets are a pain in the ass to hit, this is a very good thing.  What's more interesting, FLK is free, and does not cost points because of the relative scarcity of flying targets on the field.  Of course, given that self-same relative scarcity, you won't be using it much, but as the saying goes: Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

The B also has a piece of equipment that the Prime and A do not, in the form of CASEII.  CASEII is really easy.  It's similar to CASE, except ammunition hits are treated as no critical, rather than causing an additional point of damage.  This has the effect, on a normal 'Mech, of adding on additional no crit result.  On a 'Mech with CR, it adds four no crit results, which is pretty respectable!  On the Mk IV, it's totally useless, because a Mk IV will never take that kind of damage anyway.  Fortunately, it's also free, it just means a half ton on the unit in the traditional tabletop that you don't get to use.  The Mk IV B comes in at 47 points, a couple points cheaper than the first couple.  The lack of OV and the lowered damage compared to the other configs account for the loss in points, and which one you use is largely a matter of taste.



And finally, the C config.  This is the last of the configurations for the Mad Cat Mk IV OmniMech.  Everything of the chassis, movement, and armor remains the same.  The primary change is the armament, which evens out into flat 5/5/5 damage across the board.  This comes at effectively null points, due to how damage PV is calculated.  It also comes with OV3, allowing the C to supercharge the damage back up to A config levels of carnage, and can even outgun the A at medium range in a good situation.  That's also what the points go into.  OV3 counts for another 2 points (bringing the total to +1 compared to the Prime and A).  CASEII costs no points, but is also present.  The remainder comes from the newfangled IF2.  At a total of 52 points, the Mk IV C is the most expensive of the baseline Mk IV configs.

IF# is Indirect Fire, and represents the capability of a unit to fire over cover and from out of line of sight (but still within range), as long as they have a spotter with clear line of sight.  It's not a particularly efficient way to engage, in terms of damage per unit per turn, but it's a great way to respond if you otherwise wouldn't be able to, or if you want to avoid your fire support taking damage.  In order to take the shot, you take the firing unit's skill, the range from the firing unit, the terrain from the spotter, movement modifiers from both (in case of jumping, or remaining stationary), and then add one to top it all off.  Like I said, not particularly efficient, but one or two points of damage salvoed at an enemy 'Mech four or five times in a turn on 9s or 10s to hit will get you some damage without exposing the bulk of your group to fire.  It's a handy trick if you have a dedicated Indirect Fire Lance.

Speaking of Indirect Fire Lances, the C config is a Missile Boat role.  That means it fits into the Fire Lance, its subtype the Indirect Fire Lance, and the Command Lance without skipping a beat.  Definitely a different animal than the others.  Now, just because it's not a Skirmisher doesn't mean it can't be in one of those lances, or most other lances, it just means that it won't fulful the necessary requirements for building that lance.  Lance and formation construction will figure into a future article in greater depth.

That takes care of all the configurations of the Mad Cat Mk IV OmniMech.  However, there are still two variants left!  The Mad Cat Mk IV PR (Standard) and 2 are non-Omni modifications of the base Mk IV pacakage.  We'll also go into those in depth as a bonus.



This time, something changes about the base chassis.  This is why it's a different variant, rather than a different configuration.  The size, movement, and TMM all don't change, but right off the bat we see a different portrait in the armor and structure.  Eight armor points is one fewer than the Omni version, because of a switch to a simpler, slightly less effective armor.  It's still very good for the size.  The bigger change is four points of structure.  Switching from an XXL to an XL engine made it twice as durable under the armor, giving the PR (Standard) a total of 12 points of A/S.  Slightly better overall than the Omni version, but the distribution is far poorer, especially if you're using forced withdrawal rules.

Damage values of 5/5/3 are workable, but compared to the Omni version pretty substandard to work with.  You get spoiled with ClanTech really quick.  OV1 mitigates this somewhat, and brings the total potential damage up to Mk IV Prime standards, but it's not a steady or consistent thing.  The biggest difference on the 'Mech comes from the specials.  ARM and CR are both gone, as is OMNI.  CASE is still here, and REAR2/2/- from the Prime is still here.  We're back to Skirmisher for the role, so apply it the same way you'd apply the Prime, A, or B in Lance composition.  At 46 points it's cheaper than every Mk IV config, too.  Like I said before, and will keep saying until I get bored of it, you get what you pay for.  Fortunately, nothing new to explain here, so we'll move on to the PR 2.



This is the last variant we'll touch on today.  Thank God.  I love writing these, but 4,000 words is too much.  With the Mad Cat Mk IV PR 2, we keep the same base chassis as the PR (Standard).  Armor and structure is still 8/4, movement still 10”, the works.  Damage has gone way up, though, sitting comfortably at 6/5/4, with an OV of 1.  That's respectable, even if it's not up to the blistering potential of some of the other Mk IVs.  Rounding out the 'Mech are specials of CASE (no reason to be surprised there) and REAR2/1/0*.  Now there's something we haven't seen before.  A damage rating of 0* indicates weapons that aren't quite capable of doing even half a point of damage reliably (0.5 rounds up to 1 point) at that range.  When firing at a range in which you do 0* damage, if the attack hits, roll a d6.  On a result of 4, 5, or 6, the attack does a single point of damage.  On a 1, 2, or 3, it does absolutely nothing.  I'm not a huge fan of having to gamble twice on a single roll to do a point of damage, but it's better than nothing.  I'll have to do some research and ask some questions to see if 0* fired out of the rear arc takes damage away from the 4 points forward.  Interesting question.

Okay, that covers the last of it!  At 48 points and with a Skirmisher role, the Mad Cat Mk IV PR 2 closely mirrors the A config in terms of how you should use it and expect to see it perform.

The Mad Cat Mk IV is actually in two different places on the Master Unit List, and also on CamoSpecs.


*dies*
« Last Edit: 20 May 2015, 15:41:09 by Scotty »
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Alexander Knight

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Re: Alpha Strike 'Mech of the Week: Mad Cat Mk IV (Savage Wolf)
« Reply #1 on: 08 May 2015, 18:35:18 »
The CR is a side effect of the improved armor the Savage Wolf carries.  I agree with you that it's largely a waste on an XXL machine, but at least it's not a poor design choice.  ;)

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Re: Alpha Strike 'Mech of the Week: Mad Cat Mk IV (Savage Wolf)
« Reply #2 on: 08 May 2015, 18:41:08 »
Yep.  It's really amusing, actually, how the Mad Cat Mk IV stacks on the crit protection.  First, it's got exactly two points of structure, which means a maximum of one normal crit before it goes up.  Second, it's ARM, which ignores the first crit roll.  That automatically means the Mad Cat Mk IV cannot be critically hit until you start bringing armor-piercing ammunition of SPAs into the game.  Then, its got CR, which increases the number of no hit results, and makes ammo explosion more likely.  Then, it's got CASE or CASEII (Depending on config), which reduce damage from ammo crits (which will only ever help in the event of two separate armor piercing hits) or effectively add four more no hit results.

It's just stupidly armored against crits.
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Re: Alpha Strike 'Mech of the Week: Mad Cat Mk IV (Savage Wolf)
« Reply #3 on: 08 May 2015, 19:40:49 »
Well, I'd say that's a very good example of the mechanic then.
Like a mech that carries plasma, flamers and Infernos. ^^
So I read it that the mechs engine has a significant effect on the structue, possibly unlike the actual structure(The one we'd be talking about in CBT)?
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Re: Alpha Strike 'Mech of the Week: Mad Cat Mk IV (Savage Wolf)
« Reply #4 on: 08 May 2015, 19:45:51 »
This one sees a good amount of use on my table. The prime is an absolute monster up until the armor is gone; then it's off the board as fast as possible. I can't think of a single time ARM or CR have mattered when I've fielded it or fought against it.

I actually saw a player run a prime past an enemy 'Mech and fire into its rear arc while simultaneously engaging a unit in the front arc. Don't turn your back on prime, even if it has turned its back to you.
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Re: Alpha Strike 'Mech of the Week: Mad Cat Mk IV (Savage Wolf)
« Reply #5 on: 08 May 2015, 19:52:49 »
Well, I'd say that's a very good example of the mechanic then.
Like a mech that carries plasma, flamers and Infernos. ^^
So I read it that the mechs engine has a significant effect on the structue, possibly unlike the actual structure(The one we'd be talking about in CBT)?

The 'Mech's engine is the only determining factor for a 'Mech's structure value, when referenced to its tonnage.  A 75 ton 'Mech with a Clan XXL engine, as seen here, has 2 structure.  A 100 ton 'Mech with an IS SFE has 8 structure, as seen in the Mackie last week.  A 50 ton 'Mech with a CFE has 5 structure.  There's a table for it in the Companion.
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Re: Alpha Strike 'Mech of the Week: Mad Cat Mk IV (Savage Wolf)
« Reply #6 on: 08 May 2015, 20:04:50 »
Savage Wolf: Because nobody should have to hear "Crit happens" in the workplace. :)

So I read it that the mechs engine has a significant effect on the structue, possibly unlike the actual structure(The one we'd be talking about in CBT)?

Yeah. Because Alpha Strike is so heavily abstracted compared to Total War, just about every stat has to perform double duty. In the case of structure, it doesn't just represent the amount of damage the 'mech's skeleton can absorb, it reflects everything about a 'mech that affects how well it is at surviving damage once the armor's gone. Bulky engines that are more vulnerable to crits will bring your total structure down, as will other more delicate components, such as XL gyros, or composite IS. Similarly, things make you less vulnerable to death by crit(such as standard or compact engines) or reinforced internal structure will net you more structure points in AS. About the only crit-related things that don't affect structure are ones that relate to ammo crits, because those are covered by specials like ENE, CASE, and so forth.

The 'Mech's engine is the only determining factor for a 'Mech's structure value, when referenced to its tonnage.  A 75 ton 'Mech with a Clan XXL engine, as seen here, has 2 structure.  A 100 ton 'Mech with an IS SFE has 8 structure, as seen in the Mackie last week.  A 50 ton 'Mech with a CFE has 5 structure.  There's a table for it in the Companion.
...I could be wrong, it seems. XL gyros and such don't bring down structure?
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Re: Alpha Strike 'Mech of the Week: Mad Cat Mk IV (Savage Wolf)
« Reply #7 on: 08 May 2015, 20:09:41 »
The 'Mech's engine is the only determining factor for a 'Mech's structure value, when referenced to its tonnage.  A 75 ton 'Mech with a Clan XXL engine, as seen here, has 2 structure.  A 100 ton 'Mech with an IS SFE has 8 structure, as seen in the Mackie last week.  A 50 ton 'Mech with a CFE has 5 structure.  There's a table for it in the Companion.

I thought Reinforced and Composite also factored in. Hence the HBK-7R having the same amount of structure as a HBK-4G despite using an XL engine.
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Re: Alpha Strike 'Mech of the Week: Mad Cat Mk IV (Savage Wolf)
« Reply #8 on: 08 May 2015, 20:10:50 »
Correct.  XL, Compact, and HD gyros are pretty much irrelevant in AS.

Reinforced and Composite IS also matter, but the prime concern is always the engine.

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Re: Alpha Strike 'Mech of the Week: Mad Cat Mk IV (Savage Wolf)
« Reply #9 on: 08 May 2015, 20:21:49 »
Alexander Knight is correct.  I must have misspelled something when I searched the Companion for it, because it didn't find the structure multipliers when I did.

That said, reinforced structure is hands down the most efficient way to get health bubbles in the game.  Ten tons of standard plate gives a 'Mech 5 armor bubbles, but ten additional tons of reinforced structure gives a 100 ton 'Mech eight structure bubbles.

This is mitigated by structure being worse than armor, but if you're absolutely clamoring to make that indestructible beast of a 'Mech, reinforced and compact is absolutely the way to go.
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Re: Alpha Strike 'Mech of the Week: Mad Cat Mk IV (Savage Wolf)
« Reply #10 on: 08 May 2015, 20:34:05 »
Well, that example actually explains it very nicely.
I was wondering how structure affects things after the last article, so I went for a mech that I knew had reinforced, namely that HBK, and completely forgot about it's engine.
What's kinda odd is that Reinforced seems to grant no bonus against Crits, when that is precisely what it does in CBT.
In any case, back to topic.
The way you described it, damage taken to the structure more often than not means certain death.
So I suppose the MadCat4 is the way to go when it comes to creating a chassis to cram firepower into?
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Re: Alpha Strike 'Mech of the Week: Mad Cat Mk IV (Savage Wolf)
« Reply #11 on: 08 May 2015, 20:44:02 »
No, that's more an artifact of the Mad Cat Mk IV than it is about structure.  The reason that the Mk IV is approaching instant death thresholds when it hits structure is because it has, count 'em, exactly two points of structure.  That's what a Clan XXL leaves you with at the end of the day.

A Hunchback gets 5.  An Atlas gets 8.  A hypothetical 100 ton 'Mech with a CFE and Reinforced structure gets 20.  It's possible to make things survivable through their armor.  Armor is universally better to have, though, point per point, specifically because it can't take crits without extenuating circumstances.
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Re: Alpha Strike 'Mech of the Week: Mad Cat Mk IV (Savage Wolf)
« Reply #12 on: 08 May 2015, 20:55:29 »
Agreed, structure is very nice. My group's been playing as lot of Alpha Strike lately, and we've found structure to be pretty good to have. Many times in an afternoon, you'll hear the frustrated cries of someone who poured a lance or two's worth of fire into a single 'mech, only to find it having magically avoided every crit, and hanging on by a single point of structure. It isn't dead, and odds are it can still dump heavy firepower into you for at least one more turn.

Seriously, 90% of the times I see someone use Combat Intuition(for those unfamiliar, it's an SPA that lets a single unit move and attack before anyone else can) is just to try and finish off those corpses before they can shoot you again.
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Re: Alpha Strike 'Mech of the Week: Mad Cat Mk IV (Savage Wolf)
« Reply #13 on: 08 May 2015, 21:25:07 »
Yeah, for the few games I've played and play testing, having armor AND internals to chew through counted for more than speed (well, +3 or less mod speed in AS.)  When a lance or two's coordinated fire can just send one of those "fast" 'mechs to the grave every turn it can pay to have some robust designs to survive mass shootings.  I would argue the opposite in BattleTech of course, but thats a different conversation.

For the Savage Wolf.  Hmm.  My biggest problem is it will be dead.  Something with that kind of firepower will attract a LOT of attention.  There are certainly ways to mitigate that attention, but it's a pretty hefty investment.  That said, looking at the cost of the original Timber Wolf, they are about the same.  Go figure.  I guess i'm just nervous knowing that anything that blows through the armor will probably kill it.

Might test it out though the next time the group wanders up north for a game :)


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Re: Alpha Strike 'Mech of the Week: Mad Cat Mk IV (Savage Wolf)
« Reply #14 on: 08 May 2015, 21:25:48 »
Armor is objectively better, point for point, than structure is.  The odd thing about Alpha Strike is that there are far more and far easier ways to get extra structure than there are to get extra armor and still be combat effective.  It's much, much easier to drop from an XLE to an LFE, or even to an SFE, than it is to find double your current tonnage in armor to upgrade to Hardened, and even easier to find 10% more of your 'Mech's mass to put to Reinforced Structure than it is to do upgrade to Hardened.
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Re: Alpha Strike 'Mech of the Week: Mad Cat Mk IV (Savage Wolf)
« Reply #15 on: 08 May 2015, 21:36:05 »
Well, each point of armor costs roughly 2 tons in Alpha Strike.

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Re: Alpha Strike 'Mech of the Week: Mad Cat Mk IV (Savage Wolf)
« Reply #16 on: 08 May 2015, 21:43:11 »
Armor is objectively better, point for point, than structure is.  The odd thing about Alpha Strike is that there are far more and far easier ways to get extra structure than there are to get extra armor and still be combat effective.  It's much, much easier to drop from an XLE to an LFE, or even to an SFE, than it is to find double your current tonnage in armor to upgrade to Hardened, and even easier to find 10% more of your 'Mech's mass to put to Reinforced Structure than it is to do upgrade to Hardened.
especially since if you want to have hardened armor AND a useful weapons load, you pretty much have to use an XL engine..

ironically, what makes a zombie in alpha strike is the exact opposite of what makes one in regular Btech. the Savage Wolf is an example of a AS zombie.. it can take a ton of punishment before losing any capability, and it's pretty much immune to most of the means to disable/reduce a target  before getting through the armor.
« Last Edit: 08 May 2015, 21:50:21 by glitterboy2098 »

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Re: Alpha Strike 'Mech of the Week: Mad Cat Mk IV (Savage Wolf)
« Reply #17 on: 09 May 2015, 05:45:42 »
So Crit resistance comes pretty much only from armour?
Also what I meant above; Given that every critical might put your mech out of commission from an efficiency viewpoint, I meant building it with tough armour and fragile internals allows for the maximum amount of armour while still offering decent survivability.
That ironically means that the Malice Yz is rather fragine in AS.  ;D
... From what I've learned so far, damage values around 4/3/1 / 5/4/3 seem to be par for the course for modern IS/clan Machines?
« Last Edit: 09 May 2015, 05:55:14 by UnLimiTeD »
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Re: Alpha Strike 'Mech of the Week: Mad Cat Mk IV (Savage Wolf)
« Reply #18 on: 09 May 2015, 12:16:19 »
They're par for the course on modern high end heavies and some of the really good mediums.  Well built assaults can easily get up to 6/6/4 or greater.  Low end mediums and high end lights might struggle to reach 3/3/1.  That's assuming they don't go toward an extreme movement curve.
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Re: Alpha Strike 'Mech of the Week: Mad Cat Mk IV (Savage Wolf)
« Reply #19 on: 09 May 2015, 13:54:33 »
So Crit resistance comes pretty much only from armour?
Also what I meant above; Given that every critical might put your mech out of commission from an efficiency viewpoint, I meant building it with tough armour and fragile internals allows for the maximum amount of armour while still offering decent survivability.
That ironically means that the Malice Yz is rather fragine in AS.  ;D
... From what I've learned so far, damage values around 4/3/1 / 5/4/3 seem to be par for the course for modern IS/clan Machines?

actually no.. while you wont be taking a lot of crits when the armor is intact, armor is not the only form of protection from them. it's just the only kind that is 99% effective at it. (allowing for some "crit through armor" weapons)

CASE on a mech with a fair amount of internals gives you some protection from ammo explosions by reducing the damage from them.
ARM on a mech with a fair amount of internals gives you protection from crits by basically making the first one not happen.
CR reduces the effects of criticals you take, so that when you take one you aren't as hurt by it, and it pretty much removes the possibility of a one hit kill from crits.

on a mech that wasn't wrapped around fragile endo-steel skeleton and a XXL engine, these three traits would be very useful. on the Savage wolf however, because it is so fragile internally, they don't really do much.. crits as a result of losing all your armor and being hit on the internal strucutre aren't likely to happen, since most of the time an enemy will blow through the 2 IS fast. if they only hit for 1 damage there, ARM means that nothing will happen, and the 2nd hit kills it anyway.
the main advantage to the savage wolf is with through armor crits, like being hit with AP ammo.. you'd get to ignore the first such TAC, and all the ones after have a reduced effect.

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Re: Alpha Strike 'Mech of the Week: Mad Cat Mk IV (Savage Wolf)
« Reply #20 on: 09 May 2015, 16:49:11 »
CR reduces the effects of criticals you take, so that when you take one you aren't as hurt by it, and it pretty much removes the possibility of a one hit kill from crits.
Well, yes, that's what I mean;
Is there anything granting crit resistance (CR) that isn't a specific armour type, like Hardened or FL?
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Re: Alpha Strike 'Mech of the Week: Mad Cat Mk IV (Savage Wolf)
« Reply #21 on: 09 May 2015, 17:03:18 »
No.  Those are explicitly the only things that give CR in the Companion.
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Re: Alpha Strike 'Mech of the Week: Mad Cat Mk IV (Savage Wolf)
« Reply #22 on: 09 May 2015, 17:54:31 »
If the components are armored, you get ARM.  If the armor resists being "punctured", you get crit-resistant.
Since components go outside structure, the structure being tougher doesn't protect the components, that's what armor is for.  Structure holds it up, armor keeps the insides from being hit.
So far there's no exoskeleton mechs :).
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Re: Alpha Strike 'Mech of the Week: Mad Cat Mk IV (Savage Wolf)
« Reply #23 on: 09 May 2015, 20:44:28 »
Well, in classic, reinforced structure imposes a penalty on crit rolls, so that might arguably not be the only way to look at it.
Which I'd say is agreeable given that the sturcture is probably built around the engine and cockpit.
Meanwhile, armour obviously does that, and better, but the peculiarities of Alpha Strike mean that armour mostly protects from criticals when there is no armour left.
I any case, my questions on the topic have been fully answered.
I think I hijacked this thread for long enough (and without conspicuous purpose, no less).
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Re: Alpha Strike 'Mech of the Week: Mad Cat Mk IV (Savage Wolf)
« Reply #24 on: 09 May 2015, 22:00:21 »
Ah, my apologies, I missed that it had a -1 to crits in BattleTech (TW).
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Re: Alpha Strike 'Mech of the Week: Mad Cat Mk IV (Savage Wolf)
« Reply #25 on: 09 May 2015, 22:03:28 »
Well, in classic, reinforced structure imposes a penalty on crit rolls, so that might arguably not be the only way to look at it.
Which I'd say is agreeable given that the sturcture is probably built around the engine and cockpit.
Meanwhile, armour obviously does that, and better, but the peculiarities of Alpha Strike mean that armour mostly protects from criticals when there is no armour left.
I any case, my questions on the topic have been fully answered.
I think I hijacked this thread for long enough (and without conspicuous purpose, no less).

I wouldn't call it a hijack at all.  The entire purpose of these articles is to educate and discuss about Alpha Strike, given the prompting from the article.  Critical hits and resistance to them come up frequently, so discussing them is perfectly fair game.
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