Author Topic: 'Mech of the Week: Bear Cub  (Read 10448 times)

wantec

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'Mech of the Week: Bear Cub
« on: 08 July 2011, 16:24:24 »
'Mech of the Week: Bear Cub

(sorry I'm a little late getting this up, so busy I forgot which day it was)

Pay attention you sibko brats! Soon you will be given the privilege of piloting and fighting in actual 'Mechs. But only if you can learn what I will teach you today and pass the simulator tests. The 'Mech you will train in and fight in is the Bear Cub, pay close attention for this 'Mech will teach you some of the most important lessons you will need to learn to successfully fight in a 'Mech.

First, the Bear Cub is made by our Clan, the Ghost Bears. It is 25 tons. Since it is used as a training 'Mech or in second-line forces, in their wisdom, our scientists and our Clan's Khans have decided not to waste the resources necessary to use Endo-Steel internal structure or Ferro-Fibrous armor. However, the resources were expended to give it a 200 XL engine, capable of moving at speeds up to 129 kph. While the expense of an XL engine may be more than the armor and structure combined, it is justified since it allows you cadets the chance to learn how to handle losing a side torso and how that damage affects your heat and the durability of your 'Mech's engine. In order to force you to learn heat management, the Bear Cub carries only 12 single heat sinks. That is correct, I said single heat sinks. No fancy double heat sinks for you, you have not earned the right to use double heat sinks. Double heat sinks are a luxury afforded to true Clan warriors to allow them to focus on defeating a better armed opponent or multiple opponents.

While advanced armor is not used on the Bear Cub, the armor you have been given is carefully laid out to maximize its coverage. The Bear Cub carries 72 out of 89 maximum possible armor points, resulting in 80% coverage. Each arm, front side torso, and the head carries 7 points of armor. The front center torso and both legs each carry 10 points of armor. Lastly the rear center torso carries 3 points of armor and the rear side torsos each carry 2 points of armor. For those of you who have not yet mastered the standardized armor coverage and damage approximations, what are you surats waiting for? This means an ER or Pulse Medium Laser will strip the armor from an arm, front side torso, or the head. An ER or Pulse Large Laser or a Heavy Medium Laser will strip the armor from the front center torso or a leg. And when you fall, which will happen often, if you land on a side torso on your back, you WILL cause damage to the internal structure of the 'Mech.

For training purposes the Bear Cub has been given a variety of weapons, an ER Medium Laser in each arm, an ER Small Laser mounted in the center torso, an LRM 5 in the left torso, an SRM 4 in the right torso. Each missile rack has been given one ton of ammunition, and before you ask Cadet Alex, you will not be given any special munitions. There are a few variants out there, most likely a result of battle damage and limited spare parts for a training 'Mech. The first variation replaces the LRM rack with a second SRM rack where the LRM rack was housed. The second variation reverses that, putting a second LRM rack where the SRM rack is normally housed. Those are the only two variations and more than enough for you to learn how to fight.

Lest any of you look down upon this fine machine of war, you should remember the Hind Paw Sibko, which was on a training mission on Thule using two stars of Bear Cubs when a force of Periphery raiders attacked. The raiders were not expecting to find any Clan forces so close to their objective and they attempted to flee. Although the raiders 'Mechs were in heavier machines, the two sides had approximately equal firepower and the Bear Cubs had superior speed. The Binary of sibko cadets destroyed every raider 'Mech and killed all the raider pilots, even hanging the 4 raiders who survived the destruction of their 'Mechs.

Any questions?

What would I rate it cadet Andrew? Well as a training 'Mech I give it an 8/10, it teaches all the basics, but there are still more aspects of combat and more weapon types to learn. As a combatant, I would rate it a 4/10, there is a reason it is used primarily for training, although the speed and weapons still make it foe to be wary of.

Cadet Sam wants to know how would I change it to improve it? You sibbies should be learning how best to fight with a 'Mech as it is not try to mess with it. But if I had to change it, double heat sinks are the way to go, but there is not much tonnage to be saved by any other minor changes.

And speaking of learning how to fight with a Bear Cub, you do not have much armor, so use your speed as armor, keep moving as fast as you can to not give your opponent an easy shot. While you do not have double heat sinks, you do have enough to use most of the weapons if you learn to handle a little overheating.

And if you ever have to face a Bear Cub, whenever you get a decent shot, fire as much as you can, since one or two hits will likely destroy a section of the 'Mech, limiting its combat value.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Bear Cub
« Reply #1 on: 08 July 2011, 16:51:23 »
Thank you Star Commander Wantec, Sir!  It was a very moving and informative lecture.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Bear Cub
« Reply #2 on: 08 July 2011, 16:55:43 »
Great writeup!

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Moonsword

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Bear Cub
« Reply #3 on: 08 July 2011, 17:03:57 »
(sorry I'm a little late getting this up, so busy I forgot which day it was)

It's not midnight, I'm not bothered.

In order to force you to learn heat management, the Bear Cub carries only 12 single heat sinks. That is correct, I said single heat sinks. No fancy double heat sinks for you, you have not earned the right to use double heat sinks. Double heat sinks are a luxury afforded to true Clan warriors to allow them to focus on defeating a better armed opponent or multiple opponents.

This is really where I think the idea falls down a bit.  DHS would let them pack some more punch on and make it more useful for being something other than just a training 'Mech.

What would I rate it cadet Andrew? Well as a training 'Mech I give it an 8/10, it teaches all the basics, but there are still more aspects of combat and more weapon types to learn. As a combatant, I would rate it a 4/10, there is a reason it is used primarily for training, although the speed and weapons still make it foe to be wary of.

Agreed.

And speaking of learning how to fight with a Bear Cub, you do not have much armor, so use your speed as armor, keep moving as fast as you can to not give your opponent an easy shot. While you do not have double heat sinks, you do have enough to use most of the weapons if you learn to handle a little overheating.

So, like I almost said with the armor, "Welcome to being a light 'Mech pilot."  Those of them going on to Fire Moths will appreciate being taught early than being hit and dying horribly have a significant correlation.

And if you ever have to face a Bear Cub, whenever you get a decent shot, fire as much as you can, since one or two hits will likely destroy a section of the 'Mech, limiting its combat value.

Artillery cannons are a good start.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Bear Cub
« Reply #4 on: 08 July 2011, 18:33:33 »
Loved the write up..
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wantec

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Bear Cub
« Reply #5 on: 08 July 2011, 20:16:48 »
It's not midnight, I'm not bothered.
Eh, personal preference, I wasn't doin much today and then I remembered what day it was.

This is really where I think the idea falls down a bit.  DHS would let them pack some more punch on and make it more useful for being something other than just a training 'Mech.

Agreed.

So, like I almost said with the armor, "Welcome to being a light 'Mech pilot."  Those of them going on to Fire Moths will appreciate being taught early than being hit and dying horribly have a significant correlation.

Artillery cannons are a good start.
Honestly, I like it better with the SHS, it's got just enough to toss out some good firepower without giving the pilot a chance to get very overconfident. If only they had used ferro or end to squeeze in some electronics to train with
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Moonsword

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Bear Cub
« Reply #6 on: 08 July 2011, 20:29:23 »
Honestly, I like it better with the SHS, it's got just enough to toss out some good firepower without giving the pilot a chance to get very overconfident. If only they had used ferro or end to squeeze in some electronics to train with

The problem for me is really that the Bears are hobbling a useful fighting light in the name of making a trainer.  We know there's a lot of training programs out there so why not put a limiter in the code that can be yanked when they're done with the training wheels?

Besides, if they're not overconfident, they're not Clan Warriors and they're certainly not light 'Mech drivers.  Light 'Mech drivers, like fighter pilots, need outsized egos just to get in the cockpit these days.  It's real easy to be brave when you're jockeying 100 tons of advanced technology and bad attitude.  It takes a lot more to go out there in a Fire Moth and humiliate some smart aleck in a Mad Dog.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Bear Cub
« Reply #7 on: 09 July 2011, 01:29:19 »
Great set of instructions there, wantec!! [rockon]

One thing to remember about this design is that it is an incredible blast from the past. Due to the prominent work of MacAttack, this is one of the very few MechForce UK designs that was canonised 100% (barring the write-up that moves its in-universe introduction into a "current" time).

This was one of MacAttack's early MFUK efforts, think early 90s, so back then it was a contemporary of 3055's 2nd liners.

The design itself is absolutely unchanged. And if you have a look at MacAttack's original picture for it (the dude apparently did everything!), you can see that Brent Evans stayed very, very faithful to it.

Thanks again for the article, wantec!
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Demos

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Bear Cub
« Reply #8 on: 09 July 2011, 01:35:33 »
Great! Thanks, StarCommander wantec, SIR!

The problem for me is really that the Bears are hobbling a useful fighting light in the name of making a trainer.  We know there's a lot of training programs out there so why not put a limiter in the code that can be yanked when they're done with the training wheels?

Quote from: TRO:3075
Most significantly,the twelve heat sinks are not the double-strength variety used almost exclusively by the Clans, but instead are the far less effective single-efficiency models available from Inner Sphere facilities. Although this allows the Bear Cub to be built and repaired easily using materials captured or constructed in the Inner Sphere, the lack of advanced heat sinks can cause critical heat problems.
Battle damage, which did not cippled or destroyed the mech could be repaired easily. Standard structure, armor and heat sinks. With a preference for training units and PGCs, maybe based at the *northern* fringes of the Dominion, they will mostly fight vs. pirates and some misguided IS raiders.
For them it should be sufficient.

The mech has character and while the switch to DHS (10) had enabled him to replace the ERML with MPL or enlarge the LRM rack and add some armor it would not significantly improve the mech.
So, yes, SHS are perfectly o.k. for this design.
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Moonsword

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Bear Cub
« Reply #9 on: 09 July 2011, 02:11:43 »
I can see the point with logistics but disagree that the 'Mech should be hobbled to the point that it has to be relegated to that sort of duty, as I've already pointed out twice.  If you want a trainer, why not just use IS gear to begin with (which is much more abundant than the 200 XLFE or weapons), simulators, or artificial limiters in the design?  I disagree with why but obviously I'm in the minority on that point.  I just prefer seeing lights push the envelope.

The idea that 8% of the 'Mech's tonnage available for improvements (like, say, more lasers, larger racks, or various other things) and 8 more dissipation to use with it isn't room for a significant improvement makes me wonder what would qualify.

Demos

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Bear Cub
« Reply #10 on: 09 July 2011, 02:27:59 »
But the first role of a Bear Cub is as a "simple and inexpensive second-line unit", not a trainer.
Thats only an additional role for it.

The idea that 8% of the 'Mech's tonnage available for improvements (like, say, more lasers, larger racks, or various other things) and 8 more dissipation to use with it isn't room for a significant improvement makes me wonder what would qualify.
If you exchange the 12 SHS, by 10 DHS, you can replace the LRM/5 with a LRM/10 and add 0,5t of armor.
O.k. firepower improved a bit, also the staying power.
Is it better? yes. But not so significantly, that a Bearcub(refitted) would dominate the original in every battle.

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Diablo48

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Bear Cub
« Reply #11 on: 09 July 2011, 03:28:50 »
I am with Moonsword on this, the SHS kill it.  I was seriously considering the version with the extra SRM for my Striker Star, but when I realized the 'Mech is stuck with SHS I moved on because it makes using the weapons crippling.  All it would take is a switch to 10 DHS to make the weapons package useable, and you could use the extra weight to add another ton of armor to push yourself over more thresholds so you will not loose sections to a single good hit along with some more ERSLs for extra kick or some Micro Pulse Lasers, Flamers, or even Machine Guns to give you some anti-infantry power.


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Moonsword

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Bear Cub
« Reply #12 on: 09 July 2011, 03:47:39 »
But the first role of a Bear Cub is as a "simple and inexpensive second-line unit", not a trainer.

Inexpensive doesn't even begin to enter into it.  DHS is dirt cheap and the Bears are literally churning them out anyway for just about every other 'Mech they build.  The only reason I'm not especially bothered about the XLFE's price on what's supposed to be an inexpensive unit is it's the same one they're already building and putting on Fire Moths.  But that comes back to bite you anyway.

Simple means using what your techs are primarily trained to deal with.  Simple means using what the standard parts for that engine are, which also cuts manufacturing costs.  Simple does not mean jerking your standard maintenance and supply practices around and unnecessarily messing with your pilots' ability to do their jobs.  Second-line units have gotten thrown into front-line engagements all over the Jihad, too, and the Bears were left using those same training units and provisional clusters it's going into to hold the line on more important possessions than you seem to be allowing for.

I can see the initial variants doing this, sure, before the Bears get to see them holding the line in a way they didn't expect.  I can also see a lot of field refits to put the DHS the Firebox 200XL was designed to use back in.

I am with Moonsword on this, the SHS kill it.

You're overstating my position.  I dislike them, I think they're penny wise and pound foolish, and I think it unnecessarily hobbles what's otherwise a very solid little light.  However, the first time I said something and the only time I wasn't explaining my point of view completely about the heat sinks, I said it falls down a bit.

Diablo48

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Bear Cub
« Reply #13 on: 09 July 2011, 04:05:30 »
You're overstating my position.  I dislike them, I think they're penny wise and pound foolish, and I think it unnecessarily hobbles what's otherwise a very solid little light.  However, the first time I said something and the only time I wasn't explaining my point of view completely about the heat sinks, I said it falls down a bit.

Fair enough, it has just been my experience that light 'Mechs really cannot afford serious flaws because they have to run so close to the wire to function on the modern battlefield.  An assault 'Mech can still be a force to be reckoned with even if it does suffer from some substantial design flaws thanks to the tremendous amount of mass available for weapons and armor, but lights need to dump so much of their limited mass into the engine that they can be easily dumped into the average or below average range by a single major flaw.


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Maelwys

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Bear Cub
« Reply #14 on: 09 July 2011, 04:18:00 »
The Bear Cub just reinforces to me something that pops up whenever I see a Clan `Mech with single heat sinks. Just where are they getting these from? Sure, in the Bear Cub's case its stated that they're models available from IS facilities, but can anyone really see the "Waste not" clans producing single heat sinks? Each time I see them on a new unit, I can't help but think "Really? Just what factory line got retooled to produce those?"

Similarly, I can't help but wonder if by 3075 the Clans are going to have a hard time finding single heat sinks to capture even when fighting the Inner Sphere (DC excluded perhaps with their screwy designs) in order to help repair the Bear Cub.

And finally..isn't it a bit screwy? The majority of the heat sinks are in the engine. Aren't they going to have to atleast (Fluffily) redesign the XL Fusion Engine in order for it to use single heat sinks instead of DHS?

Diablo48

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Bear Cub
« Reply #15 on: 09 July 2011, 04:27:53 »
The Bear Cub just reinforces to me something that pops up whenever I see a Clan `Mech with single heat sinks. Just where are they getting these from? Sure, in the Bear Cub's case its stated that they're models available from IS facilities, but can anyone really see the "Waste not" clans producing single heat sinks? Each time I see them on a new unit, I can't help but think "Really? Just what factory line got retooled to produce those?"

Similarly, I can't help but wonder if by 3075 the Clans are going to have a hard time finding single heat sinks to capture even when fighting the Inner Sphere (DC excluded perhaps with their screwy designs) in order to help repair the Bear Cub.

And finally..isn't it a bit screwy? The majority of the heat sinks are in the engine. Aren't they going to have to atleast (Fluffily) redesign the XL Fusion Engine in order for it to use single heat sinks instead of DHS?

I know what you mean.  Based on what we see roll off the assembly lines it looks like the Clans make more XLEs and DHS than SFEs and SHS despite the simplicity of the older systems.  I might even go so far as to say they are dying out in Clan space, except then things like the Bear Cub roll off the assembly lines with technology that should be obsolete and out of production.

Now, that said I have done some tinkering and got SHS to work well in a Clan light thanks to the wonders of the APGR.  While it is not spectacular thanks to how stingy I had to be with energy weapons, it is fast, reasonably tough, brutal against infantry, and packs enough punch to keep other people from getting complacent.  The full design is in the link below.

http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,253.msg178977.html#msg178977


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Moonsword

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Bear Cub
« Reply #16 on: 09 July 2011, 05:16:55 »
Similarly, I can't help but wonder if by 3075 the Clans are going to have a hard time finding single heat sinks to capture even when fighting the Inner Sphere (DC excluded perhaps with their screwy designs) in order to help repair the Bear Cub.

I seriously doubt the DC has managed to find and somehow deal with all those SHS lights they were responsible for.  My own opinion of some of them (the PNT-10K and Owens most prominently) doesn't help my reactions to this one.  At least they're not simultaneously slapping DHS onto fighters that were perfectly sinked to begin with.

And finally..isn't it a bit screwy? The majority of the heat sinks are in the engine. Aren't they going to have to atleast (Fluffily) redesign the XL Fusion Engine in order for it to use single heat sinks instead of DHS?

Yes.  I mentioned that part up above.  This is the same engine the Fire Moths use.

I know what you mean.  Based on what we see roll off the assembly lines it looks like the Clans make more XLEs and DHS than SFEs and SHS despite the simplicity of the older systems.  I might even go so far as to say they are dying out in Clan space, except then things like the Bear Cub roll off the assembly lines with technology that should be obsolete and out of production.

The SFE is not dying out in Clan space.  They're relatively uncommon but plenty of designs, even newer ones, still use them.  They're also the preferred fusion plant for vehicles.

SHS on anything other than vehicles?  Those are probably dying out.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Bear Cub
« Reply #17 on: 09 July 2011, 05:29:41 »
The Clans produce vehicles. Vehicles use SHSs, the same goes for ProtoMechs. So they are clearly producing them and it wouldn't be that hard to take a shipment of combat vehicle parts and put them to use on a 'Mech.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Bear Cub
« Reply #18 on: 09 July 2011, 13:19:36 »
Wantec,

Excellent write up, nice style.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Bear Cub
« Reply #19 on: 09 July 2011, 17:41:27 »
Yes.  I mentioned that part up above.  This is the same engine the Fire Moths use.

Oh, I know its the same rating, I'm just curious how much of a redesign has to be done to make it use single heat sink instead of double heat sinks (the internal heat sinks). If seems if they really wanted to keep costs down, they would've just used the same engine, instead of modifying it.

But that's digging deep into the fluffy aspects that don't always work out :)

The Clans produce vehicles. Vehicles use SHSs, the same goes for ProtoMechs. So they are clearly producing them and it wouldn't be that hard to take a shipment of combat vehicle parts and put them to use on a 'Mech.

Vehicle heat sinks maybe. I'm not sure ProtoMech equipment is compatible with anything other than ProtoMechs.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Bear Cub
« Reply #20 on: 09 July 2011, 17:49:12 »
Oh, I know its the same rating, I'm just curious how much of a redesign has to be done to make it use single heat sink instead of double heat sinks (the internal heat sinks). If seems if they really wanted to keep costs down, they would've just used the same engine, instead of modifying it.

But that's digging deep into the fluffy aspects that don't always work out :)

It's not just the same rating.  They both use the Firebox 200XL (nice bit of research work there, by the way), which means the engines for both are probably coming out of the same factory.  Granted, they probably would've had to do a bit of rework to the cooling hookups since Bear Cubs aren't Omnis, but that seems like a rather minor thing compared to reworking the cooling system entirely.

I'll go ahead and admit it.  The fluff is well-written.  I don't agree with the logic of one particular decision but that's not new, either.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Bear Cub
« Reply #21 on: 09 July 2011, 18:19:49 »
It's not just the same rating.  They both use the Firebox 200XL (nice bit of research work there, by the way), which means the engines for both are probably coming out of the same factory.  Granted, they probably would've had to do a bit of rework to the cooling hookups since Bear Cubs aren't Omnis, but that seems like a rather minor thing compared to reworking the cooling system entirely.

I'll go ahead and admit it.  The fluff is well-written.  I don't agree with the logic of one particular decision but that's not new, either.
I can't find it right now, but I could have sworn that I read somewhere that the heat sinks fixed to the engine were wrapped around the outside of the engine (that's why the larger engines could fit more fixed heat sinks).
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Bear Cub
« Reply #22 on: 09 July 2011, 18:35:39 »
Looking at TechManual, it looks like the cooling system is fairly integral, which is probably why it's a D-grade refit to go in and mess around with it, just like it is to install lighter or heavier power plants.  (Ratings, not types.)

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Bear Cub
« Reply #23 on: 09 July 2011, 18:39:46 »
Bear Cub, Firemoths, Ursus II, Mars (HAG). XL engines are expensive, but there are ways of making them cheap.


Bear Cubs are nice little 'Mechs. For such a poor design they compare remarkably well with the other ultra lights in combat.



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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Bear Cub
« Reply #24 on: 09 July 2011, 23:33:41 »
I have to admit that from an RP perspective my preference would be to drop a couple of machine guns and/or an ECM suite on it, probably traded for a heat sink and medium laser, so that cadets would get experience with ballistic weapons and useful electronic systems.

Sometimes I think that Australia was the inspiration for the Periphery, simply because they both look really good from a long way away, but up close, everything is trying to kill you.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Bear Cub
« Reply #25 on: 10 July 2011, 22:06:42 »
Thanks all for the compliments. After seeing how well the "Top Gear" articles were received and seeing the Bear Cub listed as a training mech (at least part of the time) I just had to go for it.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Bear Cub
« Reply #26 on: 10 July 2011, 22:28:18 »
Thanks all for the compliments. After seeing how well the "Top Gear" articles were received and seeing the Bear Cub listed as a training mech (at least part of the time) I just had to go for it.

It works for me and gets the idea of someone talking to a bunch of trainees across very, very vividly.

Ratwedge

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Bear Cub
« Reply #27 on: 11 July 2011, 01:31:15 »
Thanks all for the compliments. After seeing how well the "Top Gear" articles were received and seeing the Bear Cub listed as a training mech (at least part of the time) I just had to go for it.

It also worked for me, the style helped cement the context in which to judge the mech and was an enjoyable read. Actually I read it in the voice of the guy who did the training parts from Mechwarrior 2.

Diablo48

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Bear Cub
« Reply #28 on: 11 July 2011, 02:16:22 »
Thanks all for the compliments. After seeing how well the "Top Gear" articles were received and seeing the Bear Cub listed as a training mech (at least part of the time) I just had to go for it.

I also liked the style and how you really framed it as a trainer.  The 'Mech itself has issues in real combat, but it would work well as a trainer, especially if they had swapped some parts out for electronics and Machine Guns as Swords of Fire suggested.  I would personally consider giving some of them Artemis IV units instead of ECM so you can train pilots for the ECM/ECCM interplay that is becoming so important on the modern battlefield, but that is really not terribly pressing.  Of course, it does give me an idea for building a dedicated trainer but that is not really relevant so I will not bother posting anything here.


View my design musings or request your own custom ride here.

Marlin

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: Bear Cub
« Reply #29 on: 13 July 2011, 14:54:34 »
Very nice article indeed.

To make the Mech a bit more viable in combat, just go back to 10 Heatsinks and exchange the Meds with Med Pulsers. As it is, it is nice enough, though. 2 Clan Meds are still nearly worth 2 Large IS Lasers. Nothing any Spheroid would sneeze at.
Get to know the ultimate combined arms experience for the Battletech universe! See link below.

http://forum.mechlivinglegends.net/index.php/board,105.0.html

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