Author Topic: Fighter of the Week, Issue #002 (repost) - Shilone  (Read 1541 times)

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Fighter of the Week, Issue #002 (repost) - Shilone
« on: 01 February 2011, 02:32:29 »
SL-17 Shilone - 65t, TRO3025 and beyond
Originally posted 24 Nov. 2004.

  All proposed fan-variants should be posted in the corresponding "FotW Workshop" thread.


  The preferred medium fighter of House Kurita during the Succession Wars and Tyra Miraborg's ride during her Last Great Act of Defiance at Radstadt, the Shilone is a pretty solid performer.  Given that the type's service-life spans both major eras, I'll divide the analysis into those two sections.


SUCCESSION WARS:

  In the pre-renaissance days, the Shilone could give almost anybody a run for their money.  Its 6/9 thrust curve meant it could turn with Davion's Corsairs and actually outmanoeuvre its other main rivals, the Stuka and Steiner's Lucifers and Chippewas, at least while its fuel lasted; five tons of hydrogen isn't outstanding in any way, but it's the same level of endurance as most other types, so it's no great kick either way.  Eleven and a half tons of armour was unfortunately a little light in comparison to its contemporaries, leaving it vulnerable to medium lasers on the aft, but it made up for it with a warload that was certainly respectable for its day: a nose-mounted LRM-20 with two tons of ammo and a superimposed large laser, MLs in each wing, an aft-mounted SRM-4 with twenty-five salvos to discourage the pests... and twenty SHS, making it that rarest of creatures - a Level-1 alpha-baby.  Both of its direct opponents in the medium category were tougher and mounted more firepower, but couldn't use it effectively because of heat problems; the Shilone could just pour on the hurt from its forward batteries and only have to worry about burning through its ammo and/or fuel before the other guy dropped.

  The alternate SL-17AC, which replaces a heat-sink and the Shigunga LRM-20 with a brace of AC/2s and a ton of ammo, was fluffed as a psychological weapon, intended to take the heart out of opposing pilots by inflicting damage at a range where they couldn't respond (it's a product of the old AT1 mechanics, with its individual weapon ranges and "any hit=crit check" resolution system).  Unfortunately, since the AC/2 has no range advantage over LRMs under AT2/TW, that explanation falls flat today.  However, the SL-17AC did have a certain, limited use - namely on the Steiner front, where the lightly-armoured Seydlitz was and is the preferred first-shell interceptor.  By plinking away with those AC/2s and hoping for hits on the other guy's wings, you could have a reasonable expectation of crits to his manoeuvring thrusters and/or eating into his SI, which would take away his primary advantage - his agility - and make him an easier kill.  (That said, the LRM-20 would completely remove said wing in one salvo, which means that this variant is still very much in the 'don't call us, we'll call you' category.)

  When deploying a Shilone, use it as you would a fire-support BattleMech.  Before the merge, put it behind a screen of other fighters, preferably heavier-armoured Slayers, and use those long-range missiles and large laser to soften up your chosen targets.  When the furball begins, never, ever leave your wingmate - keep pairs of Shilones within mutual support range, so they can scrape off anyone who tries to tail their buddy, and try to keep the entire squadron close enough together that any wing-pair can cover any other wing-pair's back.  Learn to love the terms 'concentrated firepower' and 'targets of opportunity'; you have the range- and heat-management-advantage over many other types, so don't be coy about using it - if you find (or can arrange) an enemy bird on his own in front of a wing-pair, give him the full treatment from both and try to take him out of the fight quickly so you can move on to the next target.  Avoid engaging light fighters if you can - they'll stern-convert on you in a New Avalon minute, and your SRM launcher and/or wing-mates may not put enough firepower on target fast enough to prevent him inflicting serious damage before he dies.

  To counter a Shilone unit, use a screen of fighters with heavy armour and/or firepower - Lucifers or Stukas might be best - to protect a unit of light interceptors; your opponent will likely concentrate his fire on one force, while the other should be effectively untouched.  When your forces merge with his, give him two ugly choices: try and chase down the lights while your heavies pound him to bits, or commit against the heavies while your lights play picadorSeydlitz are the ideal lights for engaging Shilones: their large lasers mean they can tail the samurai SOB and punch big, messy holes in him without being in danger from the SRM mounts.

[VARIANT PROPOSAL REDACTED]


3049 AND BEYOND:

  With the rediscovery of advanced BattleTech, the Shilone was upgraded to the SL-17R model.  A fighter that was heat-neutral with twenty SHS now has... twenty DHS!?  And that's all the advanced tech it has?  WTF, over?  :o  (Excuse me just a second: IIRC, the DCMS had a major shortage of DHS in the early years of the Clan crisis, which is the main reason why the PNT-10K Panther was such a POJ.  Had a large portion of the DHS production that went into creating the SL-17R been funneled to the Panther line instead, both the SL-17R and the PNT-10K might actually be worthwhile pieces of military hardware on the L2 battlefield.  As it is, we can only ask "Why, God?  Why?"  We now return you to the review in progress.  ;D)

  The SL-17R gets eaten alive by Clan fighters, and most other IS2 birds as well.  It has no advanced weapons systems, so it's vastly outranged and out-gunned; it retains its old armour profile without even upgrading to ferro-aluminium, so it's horrendously vulnerable even against IS2 weapons, much less harder-hitting ClanTech; it has no XL engine, so it has no extra warload and whatever agility advantage it may have had before Operation: REVIVAL has vanished.  With the advent of more advanced fighters like the Tatsu OmniFighter and the Oni, the Shilone is increasingly relegated to second-line units and ground-attack duties - to which it is actually quite well-suited; thirteen tons of bombs while still thrusting at 3/5 is none too shabby, and even with the DHS, the SFE means that you can buy a lot of SL-17Rs and swamp the other guy with numbers.

  In this era, every tactical recommendation from the Succession Wars period is bulleted, bolded, and underscored.  The 'fire-support'/'targets of opportunity' mentality must become paramount if you want to get your pilots back at the end of the day.  On the 'good news' side of the ledger, though, the SL-17R's C-bill and BV costs are so low that they're a steal - if you're fighting Clanners, only the Bashkir and most Vandals can undercut you, so you can field a sizeable Shilone force and use weight of numbers to achieve your mission(s).

[VARIANT PROPOSAL REDACTED]

  Post-script: through-out FotW's run, I have kept (and will keep) referring back to the Shilone as the benchmark of fire-support fighters, for the simple reason that with the exception of a few variant Slayers and Stingrays, it's the only starfighter in the IS1 inventory which combines effective Long-range weaponry (being decent-sized LRM racks) with the 6/9 movement curve needed to keep up with the dogfighters on their way to the target.  Some people cringe to hear of the very idea of 'fire-support' ASFs, much less missile-reliant ones in the era of ERPPCs and Gauss Rifles, but let's face it, if your medium-weight sluggers bring a couple of buddies to the party who sit beyond the edges of the main melee putting LRM salvoes onto hostiles without being subject to return attention themselves, won't your opponent's force curl up and die that much faster?  ???



  All proposed fan-variants - including my own - belong in the corresponding "FotW Workshop" thread: http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=869.0 .

  Be advised: the attached .txt transcripts of previous runs of this thread contain numerous reader-proposals for variants.  I'll try to change those out for 'sanitised' versions of those threads when I can, but I can't promise it'll be soon - that's a lot of ground to cover.  ;)
« Last Edit: 01 February 2011, 02:36:08 by Trace Coburn »
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Fighter of the Week, Issue #002 (repost) - Shilone ('39 Update)
« Reply #1 on: 01 February 2011, 02:37:25 »
Quote from: TRO3039, p.210
Common tactics for Shilone squadrons involve large wave assaults, which involve all the Shilones targeting their long-range missiles on one target as they close. Against other aerospace fighters this tactic is only somewhat effective, but against large targets like DropShips or orbital habitats, it is devastating. The Shilones then follow that up with precision fire from their Type 10 [large] lasers, making a combined assault that few enemies can — or have — stood up to.
  Music to my ears, dear readers: concentration of fireO0  I enunciated that principle while I was composing the "Dicta Coburn", but clearly the DCMS had enough sensible engineers/pilots/commanders that they'd long since discovered and actioned it on their own.  A full blast of one hundred and twenty LRMs may not outright vape a target in a single exchange, but it'll sure-as-hell make it miserable.  ;D
  The AFFS (re-)learned that the hard way during SW1, during the Shilone's first combat action - clearing the way for the assault force that hit Kentares IV.  I'd imagine that the subsequent events on-world give most Shilone drivers a certain degree of mixed feelings about their bird's otherwise auspicious maiden action, but thankfully aerospace actions tend to be fought on a 'cleaner' level than surface actions, so they've had rather more reason for pride than shame in the two centuries since then.  :-X

  TRO3039 gives the mentions you'd expect to the already-known variants of the baseline Shilone.  The SL-17AC is touted once more as a 'force multipler', citing the 'shock' inflicted on an aggressor who finds himself taking damage at Extreme range.  (There's a certain value to such a technique, true, but IMO it's only likely to really pay dividends against green pilots or in atmosphere where the Lawn Dart Effect plays no favourites.)  The 'slightly' more reasoned SL-17R is also explicitly referenced as one of the first uses of the new double heat-sinks; Wakazashi deemed this change so minor as to be undeserving of a new designator - though the 'R' tag did get stuck on the refitted SL-17s.  (It's understandable at the time, but Wakazashi's inexperience with foundtech is pretty obvious in the nature of this 'refit'... and that inexperience would have flow-on effects throughout the Combine's military-production sector.  For instance, Shilone pilots might have appreciated their high refit priority, no matter how marginal the benefits proved in practice... but I doubt that many DCMS 'Mech-jocks were singing Wakazashi's praises during the DC's Great DHS Shortage.  :P)

  However, with the Jihad setting the whole Inner Sphere ablaze and the Combine desperate for every advanced spaceframe it can get, Wakazashi had a better appreciation of advanced technology and funneled it all into the newest iteration of the Shilone, the SL-18.
Quote from: TRO3039, p.210
... The lasers are upgraded to extended-range models, while the armor is replaced with ferro-aluminum.  The biggest change is the use of an extralight engine that frees up enough mass to replace the missile racks with Shigunga multi-missile launchers.  Three nose- and one aft-mounted MML-7 racks, with four tons ammunition, make the SL-18 deadly at any range.

  My inner min/maxer's keen to tweak this one a little - but as it stands, it looks, feels, and plays just like a Shilone should, so I freely offer whichever PTB that crafted this little puppy an enthusiastic " ****** YEAH!".  O0
  I mean, just look at it.  You've got just as many LRMs to smack the other guy at Long range - even one more! - and now those missiles are backed by the ERLL that the SL-17R so keenly missed.  Bonus, the backup medium lasers now reach into Medium range.  Better yet, the power of the MML means that your missile system no longer 'limits' you to standoff fights: you're entirely free - even encouraged! - to close to knife-range and dispense a spread of twenty-one SRMs.  Best of all, the aft-mounted missile system not only delivers almost twice as many SRMs as the original SCK Thornbush, it can put long-range missiles in flight, which will go a great long way towards teaching tailgaters a lesson.  All this, and like the original SL-17, it makes a perfect alpha-baby!  :o
  Seriously, the other Inner Sphere powers need to slip a couple of agents into Wakazashi's design shop and get bio-samples instanter.  They need to clone those guys (or their private stash) right now:D
  (Also note well the type's massively improved effectiveness in the air-to-ground role.  Twenty-one SRMs is enough to ruin the hairdo of most any ground-unit you care to name, and when applied as the 'crit-seeker'/'finisher' of a Strike pass (or at the tail-end of everyone elses')... well, there are days when truly 'tis better to be the pigeon than the statue.  ;D  Especially when you remember those four-ton magazines, I might add; there's lots of room to mix-and-match your mission requirements against inventories of speciality munitions like Thunders, frag-warheads for flushing out the squishies, Infernoes....  }:))
« Last Edit: 01 February 2011, 02:42:09 by Trace Coburn »
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Re: Fighter of the Week, Issue #002 (repost) - Shilone
« Reply #2 on: 01 February 2011, 05:30:00 »
Now we're cooking with gas!  This is a solid, reliable dogfighter and generalist ASF that probably had a lot to do with the Combine's Succession Wars successes.

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Re: Fighter of the Week, Issue #002 (repost) - Shilone
« Reply #3 on: 01 February 2011, 16:30:12 »
I never gave the Shilone the time of day until recently....(when it came to Kurita fighters it has always been Slayer or Bust for me.)

The plethora of them in the MechCommander-II video game made me take a closer look.....And I have to say, I'm glad it did.

I personally always went with the Corsair, Samurai, Stingray, or even Lightning when it came to medium fighters from the L1 era, but, that is changing now.

I'm loving the long range nose guns w/ support MLs on the wings, solid armor & massive heatsinks that it sports.

Funny thing is, so far I'm not thrilled w/ any of the upgrades enough to make me take them over the original L1 version.
3040 - Colonel Lance Hawkins - "The Equalizers" Combined Arms Mercenary Regiment
3053 - Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky - 352nd Assault Cluster




"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up to them, stomp on their foot, wait for their head to pop open, and drop in a hand grenade (or BattleArmor) " **  Joel47   (November 19th, 2011)

Against 'mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap.  ** Weirdo

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Re: Fighter of the Week, Issue #002 (repost) - Shilone
« Reply #4 on: 01 February 2011, 17:43:13 »
No sympathy for the devil?

The SL-17R is pretty much ignorable unless someone's using plasma cannons or plasma rifles in the AA role.  The former is, in fact, completely useless against an SL-17R.  The MML model, on the other hand, looks intriguing and on a ground pass, those SRMs are going to make it a very hated foe.

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Re: Fighter of the Week, Issue #002 (repost) - Shilone
« Reply #5 on: 01 February 2011, 20:14:35 »
The MML model made me cringe when I saw the size of the rack facing aft,  I'd not want to tailgate that thing.

Question though, is the SRM damage going out calculated like Mech SRMs or Aero SRMs,  I think its Aero which means 5 point groupings v/s 2 pointers so not as much crit hunting when your strike against a ground target.
Same damage, just less TAC/Headshot potential.


That said, I will continue to use the L1 model w/ the LRM20 all day since IMHO its still the best buy out there.
3040 - Colonel Lance Hawkins - "The Equalizers" Combined Arms Mercenary Regiment
3053 - Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky - 352nd Assault Cluster




"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up to them, stomp on their foot, wait for their head to pop open, and drop in a hand grenade (or BattleArmor) " **  Joel47   (November 19th, 2011)

Against 'mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap.  ** Weirdo

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Re: Fighter of the Week, Issue #002 (repost) - Shilone
« Reply #6 on: 02 February 2011, 04:45:27 »
I thought they only did that for air attacks but no, it's against ground fire, too.  That's rather annoying and it takes away some of the utility of certain weapons.

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Re: Fighter of the Week, Issue #002 (repost) - Shilone
« Reply #7 on: 05 February 2011, 11:14:04 »
I thought they only did that for air attacks but no, it's against ground fire, too.  That's rather annoying and it takes away some of the utility of certain weapons.
I believe its "You do damage the way your unit does damage"  not the way the unit you are shooting at does.

So SRMs from an ASF to 5 point groups.
By the same token,  SRMs from a Mech shooting a Fighter do 2 point groups.
Sooo, and LBX does 1 point hits in AA mode, but a fighter shooting DOWN at the same mech does 5 point groupings.
Its a little odd but it means consistency for the guy that does the shooting.

It makes sense so that the person doesn't have to reconfigure how they do damage based on who they shoot at.
3040 - Colonel Lance Hawkins - "The Equalizers" Combined Arms Mercenary Regiment
3053 - Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky - 352nd Assault Cluster




"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up to them, stomp on their foot, wait for their head to pop open, and drop in a hand grenade (or BattleArmor) " **  Joel47   (November 19th, 2011)

Against 'mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap.  ** Weirdo

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Re: Fighter of the Week, Issue #002 (repost) - Shilone
« Reply #8 on: 05 February 2011, 13:13:15 »
I'd prefer consistency for target type, personally.  The weapons doing different things based on who's shooting them is aggravating to me.

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Re: Fighter of the Week, Issue #002 (repost) - Shilone
« Reply #9 on: 07 February 2011, 22:32:20 »
I'd prefer consistency for target type, personally.  The weapons doing different things based on who's shooting them is aggravating to me.
As opposed to who is getting shot ?   6 of one, 1/2 dozen of the other ?

I actually like it better the way it is.  That the person running the unit only has to know how they do damage that one way. 
For example if I am running a Slayer-15R,  I know that my LB10X will always get a -1 to hit, do 6 damage, and group as 5 & 1.  No matter who I am shooting at.
I don't have to know how it does damage based on the various units I am shooting at, which is what your suggesting.
The current way is better for new players IMHO.

Now for the advanced player fielding a combined arms unit of ground & air forces, its a little more annoying, but then again, if your mixing unit types, & fielding a large force, & are that advanced player, well, then you probably shouldn't have trouble remembering the differences anyway.

Again, YMMV
3040 - Colonel Lance Hawkins - "The Equalizers" Combined Arms Mercenary Regiment
3053 - Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky - 352nd Assault Cluster




"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up to them, stomp on their foot, wait for their head to pop open, and drop in a hand grenade (or BattleArmor) " **  Joel47   (November 19th, 2011)

Against 'mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap.  ** Weirdo

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Re: Fighter of the Week, Issue #002 (repost) - Shilone
« Reply #10 on: 08 February 2011, 04:23:02 »
The difference is that I prefer the same weapon doing the same thing to a 'Mech or a fighter, regardless of what the weapon's mounted on.  This way we don't have 'Mech LB-X autocannons and SRMs next to useless against fighters for anything other than damage and fighters reducing most weapons to different flavors of five point clusters when aimed at 'Mechs, which reduces the utility of LB 20-Xs and Ultra/20s against ground targets.  It keeps the peculiarities of one unit's damage model from being applied outside its own environment.

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Re: Fighter of the Week, Issue #002 (repost) - Shilone
« Reply #11 on: 09 February 2011, 09:04:17 »
This way we don't have 'Mech LB-X autocannons and SRMs next to useless against fighters for anything other than damage
I'd say AAA -3 to hit makes LBX useful even at only 1 point hits   ;)


Quote
which reduces the utility of LB 20-Xs and Ultra/20s against ground targets. 
I would point out that Ultra/20's deliver twin 15 point hits to ground targets, which isn't bad at all.
3040 - Colonel Lance Hawkins - "The Equalizers" Combined Arms Mercenary Regiment
3053 - Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky - 352nd Assault Cluster




"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up to them, stomp on their foot, wait for their head to pop open, and drop in a hand grenade (or BattleArmor) " **  Joel47   (November 19th, 2011)

Against 'mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap.  ** Weirdo

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Re: Fighter of the Week, Issue #002 (repost) - Shilone
« Reply #12 on: 09 February 2011, 09:15:11 »
I'd say AAA -3 to hit makes LBX useful even at only 1 point hits   ;)

So... doing damage and forcing a PSR?  I seem to recall that being what I said it was useful for.  Yes, you can hit the target.  You can do that anyway with anything else with a flak bonus and, as it stands, all of them will also do a better job of thresholding a target.

But I think we've exhausted this topic.  It's a very minor gripe.

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Re: Fighter of the Week, Issue #002 (repost) - Shilone
« Reply #13 on: 10 February 2011, 20:56:51 »
Times like these, I'm really glad the Marians those this frame for their first foray into starfighter construction. It's probably the old -17 instead of the -18, but it's still a deadly fighter, and as was said of the -17R, it's so cheap that even the Hegemony can afford to build them in large quantity.
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Re: Fighter of the Week, Issue #002 (repost) - Shilone
« Reply #14 on: 11 February 2011, 04:26:07 »
Some strike/strafe power, some dogfighting, decent bomb capability, good armor, good damage, nice range... a real renaissance fighter.

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Re: Fighter of the Week, Issue #002 (repost) - Shilone
« Reply #15 on: 14 February 2011, 13:33:43 »
Not a huge fan of the 17R due to the fluff on Drac DHS.

Soooo, your limited on the # of DHS you can make......aaannndd...you stick them in the fighter that is ALREADY cool running ??

Really ?  Seriously ?    /SMACK  #P

The original 17 is growing on me more & more though,  Its got a really nice weapon distribution.
I love all the long guns in the nose.
3040 - Colonel Lance Hawkins - "The Equalizers" Combined Arms Mercenary Regiment
3053 - Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky - 352nd Assault Cluster




"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up to them, stomp on their foot, wait for their head to pop open, and drop in a hand grenade (or BattleArmor) " **  Joel47   (November 19th, 2011)

Against 'mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap.  ** Weirdo