Hand held pulse lasers, awesome but impracticable?

[Nikas_Zekeval]

Looking at it as an out of cockpit weapon, laser pistols while expensive are a damn tempting choice.  Range better than just about any other pistol, and most SMGs, even if not quite a rifle's range.  Higher penetration than most ballistic weapons of similar size, and requires the enemy to have invested in higher grades of body armor to hope to stop any damage from it.  Finally as long as you have a power supply to plug into reloads are not a concern.

However, looking at it, is the Inner Sphere pulse laser pistol worth it over a standard laser pistol?  The PPS is the same, 2, the PLP is a 3E/2B, while the LP is 4E/3.  A HCPP, or Clan PP is 30 points, or 15 shots from either.  Standard PP is 10 from either.  The ranges are close, the PLP is roughly 7/8s the LP's range.  Both mass the same, and the PLP is 250 C-bills more

The issue is, well while the burst mode can, theoretically, raise the damage from a single shot?  It can only do so by greatly increasing the power drain.

For example, for a situation where you have a target modestly armored against energy weapons, you'd need to double tap the PLP (and get the 2 MOS) to roughly equal the same end damage (3E/2+2 vs 4E/3), if say the target has ab/flak armor (5 vs Energy weapons).  But to get that far the PLP uses twice the power.  Triple and quad bursts only get one extra damage against an armored target like above, since as a single shot weapon the LP gets a bonus point of damage per every 4 MOS on the to hit roll.  A PLP tops out at a 5 burst.

So ISTM that against a single target, the PLP only has a significant edge really works if you are A) targets that have no or cheap armor, and B) if you are willing to spend your power supply quickly.  The only other advantage is a PLP can do suppressive fire, but that will drain a standard powerpack in a single long burst.

[bluedragon7]

An MOS of 5 will give you a damge of 3E/7 vs 4E/4. The better you are, the more usefull burstfire becomes, thats why Autorifles do a point of damage to Mechs in TW ;-)

[Nikas_Zekeval]

An MOS of 5 will give you a damge of 3E/7 vs 4E/4. The better you are, the more usefull burstfire becomes, thats why Autorifles do a point of damage to Mechs in TW ;-)

True, but how likely is a MOS of 5?  Unless shooting something large and clumsy?  Plus that full power burst is half a standard powerpack,vs a tenth, for only two to three extra damage, depending on the target's armor.  Great if you need someone dropped quick, but not so much if he has friends looking for you too.

[Maelwys]

And that might be the lure of the Pulse laser over the standard. A chance to do lots of damage all at once, rather than average damage over a longer time.

[bluedragon7]

True, but how likely is a MOS of 5?  Unless shooting something large and clumsy?  Plus that full power burst is half a standard powerpack,vs a tenth, for only two to three extra damage, depending on the target's armor.  Great if you need someone dropped quick, but not so much if he has friends looking for you too.

In the group i am playing in at the moment not that uncommon (if your effective base to hit is -1  ;) ) though i prefer a modified AX-22.
As i said before, if you are good enough, burstfire allows for significant increase in damage, but even for less MOS it is a valuable increase:
MOS Pulse Laser
0        2       3
1        3       3
2        4       3
3        5       3
4        6       4
5        7       4

If you take into account that a lot of armors have not enough energy-BAR to affect the damage at all, the only advantage for the standard laser is the lower power consuption.

The powerdrain of pulse lasers is indeed a big problem but if you use powerpacks like ammo clips it works, only the larger capacity batteries are too inefficient in their weight.

[Maelwys]

So what about other pistol-sized laser weapons? How do they fare?

I've got some opinions, but its 6am, so I'll leave those till later :)

[bluedragon7]

Mostly looking at damage vs energy consumption compared to the normal Laser Pistol:
Blazer Pistol has just more 2AP for 8PP. Only usefull if you expect highly armored targets
ER gives more range for 1 more PP, would rather switch to rifles if i need mor than about 200m from a pistol
Holdout has only the very low weight (only 50gramms) for it: -1BD+1PP, low range, only good if you need to hide it
White dwarf is oneshot, rather spend that weight on a dozen micropowwrpacks for the holdout
Nakjima is very efficient with 2 damage for 1PP, for endurance i would pick this
Nova ist quite bad in comparison requiring 10PP for 5BD at low range, i rather take my chances with the pulse laser
Sunbeam gives 4BD for 4PP, quite solid
In singleshot the clan pulselaser pistol is petter than the IS version, 15PP für a full burst is a lot and i would rather have the IS version

[Nikas_Zekeval]

If you take into account that a lot of armors have not enough energy-BAR to affect the damage at all, the only advantage for the standard laser is the lower power consuption.

Depends on who you are facing.  Based off the standard armor kits, Energy Bar only covering the main body
Canopians=2
CapCon, DC, FFR, TC=3
FedSuns (reg), FWL, LA, Marian Hegemony=4
FedSuns (PAB-27 Elite), Clan, C*, WOB=5

And others/generic is strait flak (1).  Also a Tanker's Smock is a Bar 5 on energy weapons, if both sides get dismounted and take potshots with sidearms.

[bluedragon7]

That's why I said a lot, not all. ;) Considering prices and availability a lot of enemies you can face will have BAR 3 or less.

As always effectiveness of your weapons depends on the enemies you face. I see laser pistols mainly as sidearm for downed (mech) pilots to help them avoid capture by militia infantry in flak armor and for that purpose they are useful. An infantry unit should rather have rifles than pistols.

[Nikas_Zekeval]

That's why I said a lot, not all. ;) Considering prices and availability a lot of enemies you can face will have BAR 3 or less.

As always effectiveness of your weapons depends on the enemies you face. I see laser pistols mainly as sidearm for downed (mech) pilots to help them avoid capture by militia infantry in flak armor and for that purpose they are useful. An infantry unit should rather have rifles than pistols.

Wasn't sure if I made it clear in the OP, but that was the point of view I was coming at it from.  Something for a soldier that is normally mounted or piloting something, and has to dismount.  Laser range helps, true the rifles are longer range, but OTOH a laser pistol has enough reach that they have to remain at their own extreme range to stay out of yours entirely.  At a minimum if they aren't in range, they still are going to have trouble hitting you.

[massey]

I figure the "reality" of the Battletech universe is somewhere between all the different rules sets.  So with people on foot, it's some combination of Mechwarrior 1st ed, Mechwarrior 2nd, Mechwarrior 3rd, ATOW, and Battletroops.  So maybe a pulse laser pistol gives you the modern burst fire rules, or maybe it gives you the -2 to hit of Mechwarrior 2nd edition.  Or, as in Battletroops, maybe it operates as a machine gun, letting you go on overwatch and hit everybody who passes in front of you.

The "reality" would be somewhere in the middle of all that.  Exactly which one dominates depends upon the focus of the game.  But hooking a pulse laser pistol up to a high capacity satchel power pack would give you a potentially very lethal weapon that could gun down a room full of people.  It's a Laser Uzi.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

If you're going to hookup a pistol to a backpack for power you may as well have a full-sized squad weapon...with squad weapon range and firepower.

[Nikas_Zekeval]

If you're going to hookup a pistol to a backpack for power you may as well have a full-sized squad weapon...with squad weapon range and firepower.

Depends, do you have room in the cockpit or crew compartment for a full rifle?

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Depends, do you have room in the cockpit or crew compartment for a full rifle?

  Unless the cockpit is rated as cramped, I'd say yes. Would the cockpit have room for a bugout bag and a power satchel? Any full-sized rifle could be fitted with a folding stock and not take up much room at all; It won't be a pistol but if you're looking for a pistol with the power of a rifle, you may as well use a flamer, which is my favorite sidearm.  If you could afford to own a 'Mech, customizing a rifle is nothing.

[massey]

If you're going to hookup a pistol to a backpack for power you may as well have a full-sized squad weapon...with squad weapon range and firepower.

Backpack maybe, but as I understand it, satchels are about the size of a canteen of water.  And it will give you enough shots so that your laser uzi can fire half a dozen-plus room-clearing bursts.  I don't have the book in front of me to double check the numbers, but that seems about right from memory.

Would everybody carry them?  No, but there's certainly a use for it, even if it's just to lay down suppression fire until you can slip away.

[Daryk]

For weight to power ratio, the way to go is High Capacity Micro Power Packs.  They're amazingly power dense.

[Maelwys]

Of course, that assumes the weapon can accept a micro power pack.

Then again, basic Power Packs (whatever their type) are about twice as good as Military Power Packs when it comes to weight to Power point ratios.

I realized that last night when I was exploring what it would take to arm a WoB Infantryman with an equivalent number of shots to today's soldiers. Its..not pretty :)

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

  I really don't see the benefit. A pistol is a weapon of last resort, no matter what the technology. You may as well buy a pair of decent running shoes. After reviewing the combat rules, I'm even less impressed.

  From my own point of view, once a 'Mech is out of the fight, so is the pilot. He is far more valuable than an infrantryman, so he has no business playing one. If the Mechwarrior owns his ride, once he exits the cockpit, the 'Mech is salvage to whomever can drag it away, so that Mechwarrior stays with his ride until one side or the other takes the field. If friendlies take the field, his 'Mech is recovered; If the enemy takes the field, he stands down and gets to wait until he and his ride are ransomed at the end of hostilities.

  If you MUST be belligerent, take that PLP and max out the modifications: Scope, stock, accurization, higher capacity power packs, etc., then up your body armor as well...

[Diamondshark]

True, but there is a pretty vast precedent in-universe for enemy infantry trying to breach the cockpit of a mech, especially a downed one. And in that case, being able to stick your hand out the hatch and shoot things off the mech is a must, and I see a pretty good advantage to the burst-fire ability of a pulser in that case.

[Nikas_Zekeval]

Also there are other scenarios besides being unseated a GM might run which separates a MechWarrior from his machine.  Infiltration (either by or against you), a meeting turns hostile, obtaining an objective.  Or if your picked up Scout or Special Forces along with MechWarrior on your academy advanced fields you might be sneaking in on foot.

Heck, a sidearm can pass as part of a dress uniform, while a full rifle or SMG wouldn't.

[massey]

I know there's no mention of it anywhere in the rules, but it would make sense for mechs to have a power outlet that runs to the fusion reactor where you can plug in various things, including personal weapons.  It would make sense to have them on the exterior of the mech, in case you get your ride shot out from under you.  So your Stinger (or whatever) gets trashed, there's a hostile infantry unit coming towards you, and you climb out of the cockpit with your pulse laser pistol and an extension cord.  Plug the sucker into an outlet in the mech's armpit or something, get yourself a good position with cover, and you've got basically unlimited ammo.  Not that you're gonna kill off an infantry platoon by yourself, but it makes approaching downed mechs far less pleasant for foot troops.

And you know, if you're in a Stinger, you've probably been mowing down infantry guys with your machine guns anyway, so it's not like those guys are going to be all that thrilled with you when you get captured.

I'd like to see a set of RPG-scale mech quirks like that. 

[Nikas_Zekeval]

Except if your mech is down like that it is likely the reactor is shutdown.  OTOH nothing says you can't have a charging port wired into a mech or vehicle power system to top things off in case you have to bail out.

[massey]

Except if your mech is down like that it is likely the reactor is shutdown.  OTOH nothing says you can't have a charging port wired into a mech or vehicle power system to top things off in case you have to bail out.

Perhaps, but the amount of power used by a hand pistol is probably minimal compared to moving a mech around.  It's possible there'd be enough power leftover in the system to keep your gun going for a while.  Even with the reactor off, the mech probably has some sort of battery.

[Diamondshark]

I think realistically, you're probably better-off just packing extra power-packs, unless you want to stick a satchel battery behind the command couch; if you're shooting at things THAT much, you need to either surrender or get out of there. Under normal circumstances, a mechwarrior facing swarm attacks or with a downed 'mech will only need to fire a couple times at the most; either the problem will go away or (s)he will be overwhelmed, since (s)he isn't there to be a one-man army, just to wait for help/rescue.

[VictorMorson]

  I really don't see the benefit. A pistol is a weapon of last resort, no matter what the technology. You may as well buy a pair of decent running shoes. After reviewing the combat rules, I'm even less impressed.

  From my own point of view, once a 'Mech is out of the fight, so is the pilot. He is far more valuable than an infrantryman, so he has no business playing one. If the Mechwarrior owns his ride, once he exits the cockpit, the 'Mech is salvage to whomever can drag it away, so that Mechwarrior stays with his ride until one side or the other takes the field. If friendlies take the field, his 'Mech is recovered; If the enemy takes the field, he stands down and gets to wait until he and his ride are ransomed at the end of hostilities.

  If you MUST be belligerent, take that PLP and max out the modifications: Scope, stock, accurization, higher capacity power packs, etc., then up your body armor as well...

Honestly you're entirely right, except you're not counting the fact other downed mechwarriors will probably try to shoot at you.

Sure you're not taking on infantry and if you start shooting at an elemental you earn your darwin award, but if you go down 60m from the other guy who's also crawling out of his cockpit, by God you better have something to defend yourself!

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Honestly you're entirely right, except you're not counting the fact other downed mechwarriors will probably try to shoot at you.

Sure you're not taking on infantry and if you start shooting at an elemental you earn your darwin award, but if you go down 60m from the other guy who's also crawling out of his cockpit, by God you better have something to defend yourself!

  My characters never use sidearms in combat. Never. My characters always surrender. As a mercenary, my character taken alive is worth a ransom that any NPC could retire on, payable out of an escrow account held by Comstar. When my character is under contract, it is as a mechwarrior, and nothing else. Once his 'Mech is out of combat, my character is no longer a combatant. He doesn't organize the resistance; won't sabotage enemy ammo dumps; won't rescue the princess -That's not his job and he has no problem sending a copy of his contract to the enemy, to confirm the parameters of his obligations. His techs are forbidden to carry arms; they surrender immediately to any threat because they are more valuable alive and will be ransomed.

  Going into battle armed to the teeth may appeal to the kids who want to play Rambo but to a professional mechwarrior, it's like ordering him to clean the latrine -Not his job.
 
  A mechwarrior doesn't exit his mount unless he's blasted out of it. The average IS mechwarrior wears a cooling vest and boxer shorts; running around a hot battlefield is the last thing he wants to do.

[E. Icaza]

It's better to have it (Burst fire option) and not need it than need it and not have it?

While I'm of the "stay in your cockpit and await rescue/ransom" school of thought, sometimes that's not an option.  If my character can afford it, then the PLP is my weapon of choice.  Just stuff a few extra power packs into your survival kit and don't go "spray and pray" at every chance like an extra from an Immortal Warrior vid.

[massey]

  My characters never use sidearms in combat. Never. My characters always surrender. As a mercenary, my character taken alive is worth a ransom that any NPC could retire on, payable out of an escrow account held by Comstar. When my character is under contract, it is as a mechwarrior, and nothing else. Once his 'Mech is out of combat, my character is no longer a combatant. He doesn't organize the resistance; won't sabotage enemy ammo dumps; won't rescue the princess -That's not his job and he has no problem sending a copy of his contract to the enemy, to confirm the parameters of his obligations. His techs are forbidden to carry arms; they surrender immediately to any threat because they are more valuable alive and will be ransomed.

  Going into battle armed to the teeth may appeal to the kids who want to play Rambo but to a professional mechwarrior, it's like ordering him to clean the latrine -Not his job.
 
  A mechwarrior doesn't exit his mount unless he's blasted out of it. The average IS mechwarrior wears a cooling vest and boxer shorts; running around a hot battlefield is the last thing he wants to do.

That's kinda boring though. :(

You're also presuming that the guy capturing you is interested in money, and that you didn't kill his wife when you machine-gunned that infantry squad the other day.