Author Topic: WoB vs The Society  (Read 11936 times)

DirewolfV.

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WoB vs The Society
« on: 14 February 2012, 22:04:53 »
Not sure where to put that (technically it could go into either Clan Chatterweb or here, but I chose to go here, just cause) but who do you think is the more hardcore of the two group? Who is the more technocratic? Who is the more ruthless? Which is the more amoral and fanatical? And which, if either, do you favor, and why?

Also, if they both succeeded (WoB took the IS and Society took the Clans) who do you think would have won in a war?
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Neufeld

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Re: WoB vs The Society
« Reply #1 on: 15 February 2012, 03:00:08 »
Who is the more technocratic?

WoB. The Society is more into biosciences.

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Stormfury

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Re: WoB vs The Society
« Reply #2 on: 15 February 2012, 03:15:53 »
Quote
Also, if they both succeeded (WoB took the IS and Society took the Clans) who do you think would have won in a war?

The Word did not have the strength to take on even one of the Invader Clans, never mind the Home Clans; Clan bioscience can easily concoct things that make the Alarion and Kathil strains the Word unleashed look like a mild case of the sniffles.

The Society would win hands-down, but nobody would want to live in what was left of the inhabited BT setting.
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verybad

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Re: WoB vs The Society
« Reply #3 on: 15 February 2012, 03:29:50 »
I think they both have different views on what posthumanity sentience should look like. Hard and shiny, or 9 feet tall covered in chintinous armor and spiky?

The Society isn't JUST into bioscience, the technology they invented for mechs is absolutely nasty (iATMs and CEWS are absolutely powerful)

The WoB has (even post jihad with the "missing" Shadow divisions) a much larger army. They're both very adept at working in the shadows, but the WoB were much better at offensive operations, and had a better overall understanding of intelligence operations. Comstar has been doing stuff like that for about 300 years however...

In a war, the society could vertainly kill a lot of people, but given the numbers, winning without killing EVERYONE would be unlikely.
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Lord Harlock

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Re: WoB vs The Society
« Reply #4 on: 15 February 2012, 10:46:13 »
The Word did not have the strength to take on even one of the Invader Clans, never mind the Home Clans; Clan bioscience can easily concoct things that make the Alarion and Kathil Galax strains the Word unleashed look like a mild case of the sniffles.

I think you mean Galax.

Øystein

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Re: WoB vs The Society
« Reply #5 on: 15 February 2012, 11:29:27 »
The Word did not have the strength to take on even one of the Invader Clans, never mind the Home Clans.

Incorrect.

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Minemech

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Re: WoB vs The Society
« Reply #6 on: 15 February 2012, 11:32:49 »
 Stormfury, as late as the start of 3078 the Word of Blake still had a formidable navy. Take a look at Jihad Final Reckoning, you might change your mind on this matter.
« Last Edit: 15 February 2012, 11:43:29 by Minemech »

Nahuris

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Re: WoB vs The Society
« Reply #7 on: 15 February 2012, 13:11:29 »
Yeah, when it comes to military strength.... the WOB has it.
I'm not disparaging the society...... but they were never going to have the means to build up into a big force, given the constraints of clan society as a whole.

In a straight up fight, I'd have to give it to the Blakists....

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Re: WoB vs The Society
« Reply #8 on: 15 February 2012, 13:58:35 »
when comparing the two side by side, I tend to sympathize with the society more and more.  they were an oppressed majority group, who were held as keepers of their civilizations genetic history, and was bearing witness to that legacy being destroyed.  Their hands were forced to action, and their motives where more akin to certain unnamed political movements IRL.

The Word of Blake were always thugs, fanatics.  while like the society their actions are blatantly terrorist attacks and war crimes, their motives were raw power grabs for themselves.  their hand was "forced" cause they did not get to go to war with an enemy that, as fate would have it, pretty much destroyed themselves anyway.
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Lord Harlock

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Re: WoB vs The Society
« Reply #9 on: 15 February 2012, 14:19:07 »
when comparing the two side by side, I tend to sympathize with the society more and more.  they were an oppressed majority group, who were held as keepers of their civilizations genetic history, and was bearing witness to that legacy being destroyed.  Their hands were forced to action, and their motives where more akin to certain unnamed political movements IRL.

The Word of Blake were always thugs, fanatics.  while like the society their actions are blatantly terrorist attacks and war crimes, their motives were raw power grabs for themselves.  their hand was "forced" cause they did not get to go to war with an enemy that, as fate would have it, pretty much destroyed themselves anyway.

I'm leery to say the Society was an oppressed majority since its leaders were part of the science caste. I'm not particularly aware of the actually percentages in clan society, but I always figured that the largest caste was the laborers. Now there were other caste members who joined with the Society scientists to get back at the Warriors, but it was not a movement started by the laborers. 

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Re: WoB vs The Society
« Reply #10 on: 15 February 2012, 14:33:34 »
I'm leery to say the Society was an oppressed majority since its leaders were part of the science caste. I'm not particularly aware of the actually percentages in clan society, but I always figured that the largest caste was the laborers. Now there were other caste members who joined with the Society scientists to get back at the Warriors, but it was not a movement started by the laborers.

to elaborate my statement, I am including all who aligned with the society in their ranks, across all castes.  the scientists themselves may not have been a majority, but thier interest was for all of the Clan Way, not just the warriors or themselves.
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Hawkeye Jim

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Re: WoB vs The Society
« Reply #11 on: 15 February 2012, 15:33:55 »
The WoB had a much larger navy than anyone else, Clan or IS realm. The Society had virtually none. That should have given the Wobbies enough advantage to win.

Lazarus Jaguar

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Re: WoB vs The Society
« Reply #12 on: 15 February 2012, 15:36:15 »
Well, As interesting as it would be to see them fight, I'd rather consider an even scarier scenario:  What would have happened if the WoB and Society teamed up?
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elizibar

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Re: WoB vs The Society
« Reply #13 on: 15 February 2012, 15:42:28 »
Well, As interesting as it would be to see them fight, I'd rather consider an even scarier scenario:  What would have happened if the WoB and Society teamed up?

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Stormfury

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Re: WoB vs The Society
« Reply #14 on: 15 February 2012, 15:43:18 »
Stormfury, as late as the start of 3078 the Word of Blake still had a formidable navy. Take a look at Jihad Final Reckoning, you might change your mind on this matter.

I am aware of the size of their navy. It was matched if not exceeded by the vessels in the Clan OZs by '67, never mind the naval forces of the Homeworlds. We have done this dance before, and the argument in favour of the Word's strength requires it to have all 52 Divisions fully equipped at one time, which we know was never the case even before the Jihad kicked off. Whether the authors would have written a scenario in which the Word reduced a Clan OZ to a radioactive pestilent hellhole is unknowable, but in a conventional fight their ability to handle even Clan Wolf (the smallest Clan in the Sphere) by themselves is questionable.

Quote
Well, As interesting as it would be to see them fight, I'd rather consider an even scarier scenario:  What would have happened if the WoB and Society teamed up?

Same thing just higher cost for victory.
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Lazarus Jaguar

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Re: WoB vs The Society
« Reply #15 on: 15 February 2012, 15:53:34 »
Hmm, could it still happen?  We know some Shadow Divisions got away, and two of the Five may still be around.  But is it possible that some of the Society escaped?
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JPArbiter

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Re: WoB vs The Society
« Reply #16 on: 15 February 2012, 16:24:53 »
Hmm, could it still happen?  We know some Shadow Divisions got away, and two of the Five may still be around.  But is it possible that some of the Society escaped?

you gotta consider how many of the Shadows had DNI implants of some kind, they are on a timer.  you also have to consider how many shadows either gave up their reproductive capability to be augmented, or took some vow of celibacy (given they are a religious order that rejects organic life as imperfect)

the possibly of the Manei Domini order surviving as a culture from the missing shadows is next to non existent.  they either packed up and headed for the clan home worlds for a suicide run, or settled down on a Hidden World or an uncharted one and live out their years as best they could.  by 3150, they will be extinct, anyone claiming thier mantle being just as much pretenders to the throne as the second Star League.
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DirewolfV.

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Re: WoB vs The Society
« Reply #17 on: 15 February 2012, 16:39:32 »
Also many should consider what sort of wonder technologies would be made if these groups ever had enough time and resources to further consolidate their powers. WoB might very well be coming in with Super-Heavies, K-F Torpedos, Post-Gestal's, etc. Imagine K-F Torpedos armed with Cobalt Nuke warheads.

Society would have super-advanced Proto-Mechs, would probably upgrade Omnis. They may even have Omni Protos, BAs---maybe, just maybe---even OmniWarships. The thought of the last would be very scary.

I think in the end the Word would have better pilots (since cybernetics seems to outclass genetic modification) but the Society would likely have better Mech and vehicle tech. This is all just pure speculation at this point however, but much of the conflict would be effected by what technologies the sides pursued after consolidating power. WHat kinds of technologies do you think the two different sides would pursue?
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Lord Harlock

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Re: WoB vs The Society
« Reply #18 on: 15 February 2012, 16:58:57 »
You forget that the Society also had a higher understanding of genetics than probably anyone else. The big problem is they actually wanted to use it. The second coming of the Word of Blake whatever form it may take will look probably human. If the remnants of the Society ever show up again, they may well be more monstrous than the genecaste. Imagine Cthullu wearing mech armor as his morning coat.

Minemech

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Re: WoB vs The Society
« Reply #19 on: 15 February 2012, 17:38:56 »
I am aware of the size of their navy. It was matched if not exceeded by the vessels in the Clan OZs by '67, never mind the naval forces of the Homeworlds. We have done this dance before, and the argument in favour of the Word's strength requires it to have all 52 Divisions fully equipped at one time, which we know was never the case even before the Jihad kicked off. Whether the authors would have written a scenario in which the Word reduced a Clan OZ to a radioactive pestilent hellhole is unknowable, but in a conventional fight their ability to handle even Clan Wolf (the smallest Clan in the Sphere) by themselves is questionable.
Are you talking individual, or combined fleets?
 

Lord Harlock

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Re: WoB vs The Society
« Reply #20 on: 15 February 2012, 18:40:17 »
Well, the combined fleet of the 3067 Inner Sphere Clans (Jade Falcons, Wolf, Ghost Bears, and the one lone Shark vessel) if all the warships were in the Inner Sphere at the time was 40 warships (that's counting even the two ships that were being repaired by the Ghost Bears and the ship that the Jade Falcons lost to Wolves in Exile). Now realistically, it's probably be more around 14 warships since the Wolves and Falcons probably had most of their fleets traveling the Exodus Road, in the Homeworlds dealing with other Clan fleets, or in the Ghost Bear case just getting repaired. (The real problem is that we don't exactly have pinpoints where each vessel is in canon for the time. Also, I'd figure the Word of Blake wouldn't pick a fight with the Nova Cats or Wolves-in-Exile. Also, I'm going to figure that except for the Ghost Bears that the fleets are in thirds between the Occupation Zone, Exodus Road, and Homeworlds.)

The Word of Blake on the other hand had 35 warships going by strictly the original ships of the fleet on page 128 of Final Reckoning. Now realistically, I'm going to cut off forty percent for being built or refurbished at the time. (Honestly, the Word of Blake built some Dantes at some point which weren't captured, and somehow I doubt that they had them ready in 3067 with everything else that was being refurbished at the time between Titan and Gabriel.) That means that the Word of Blake fleet would be about 21 ships in 3067 under my estimates.

If the Word had all their ships on the boarder at the time of 3067, they would have probably smote the Clan fleet not accounting for ship type, experience, tricks i.e. alamos, or even logistical questions. The big problem here for the Word is that they have reserves probably, but the Clans would have more if all the Clans in the Homeworlds immediately go crazy to avenge the Inner Sphere losses which gives maybe four months to a year to rebuild. The possibility exists that Khan Brett Andrews could cause the Wars of Reavings early by using the losses by the Inner Sphere Clans to justify trials of annihilation which would give the Word more breathing room as the Clans whack each other.  It's just a question of who could get their reserves there the fastest in the end.

The other issues is ground combat, and that would probably destroy the Word of Blake Militia Divisions if there are not combat multipliers such as NBC weapons involved.  The worst area on the ground for the Word would be the Ghost Bear Dominion since it held nearly all of their ground forces.

In the end, it'd be a  . . . draw.

Lazarus Jaguar

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Re: WoB vs The Society
« Reply #21 on: 15 February 2012, 18:41:10 »


the possibly of the Manei Domini order surviving as a culture from the missing shadows is next to non existent.  they either packed up and headed for the clan home worlds for a suicide run,

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idea weenie

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Re: WoB vs The Society
« Reply #22 on: 15 February 2012, 19:55:40 »
Well, As interesting as it would be to see them fight, I'd rather consider an even scarier scenario:  What would have happened if the WoB and Society teamed up?

The Nova CEWS tech and bloodname killer diseases in exchange for the WoB construction capacity?  Let alone a nastier version of the SLOT computer virus.  Imagine not being able to coordinate interstellar communications except by Jumpship, while the other side has HPG comms.

At the very least, the two of them would have coordinate their attacks, using the D.R.U.M and the Chatterweb.

Lord Harlock

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Re: WoB vs The Society
« Reply #23 on: 15 February 2012, 21:27:03 »
Well that really isn't an issue for the AFFS, LAAF, or DCMS either thanks to the Black Box.

blackjack

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Re: WoB vs The Society
« Reply #24 on: 15 February 2012, 22:59:07 »
Well, As interesting as it would be to see them fight, I'd rather consider an even scarier scenario:  What would have happened if the WoB and Society teamed up?
I think that this has the possibility of happening. The Manei Domini could very well team up with the Society. They would share thier shiney toys with one another, they could come up with some very interesting tech going forward. True Machina Domini genetically designed  to interface with Protomechs.
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Re: WoB vs The Society
« Reply #25 on: 15 February 2012, 23:48:47 »
Frankly, I don't think we really know enough 'bout the Society to make definitive statements about them. The Wars of Reaving is an awesome resource, but it was compiled from whatever reports the Diamond Shark Watch agents could steal, most of which were more concerned with the Warrior-caste perspective than with the Society's methodology. The Society is a unknown quality and it probably always will be.

Gabriels_Sword

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Re: WoB vs The Society
« Reply #26 on: 16 February 2012, 03:45:58 »
remember the WoB seen the clans as abominations - no way were they ever going to join with the society - support them and then turn on them yeah though :)
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Lazarus Jaguar

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Re: WoB vs The Society
« Reply #27 on: 16 February 2012, 05:33:58 »
remember the WoB seen the clans as abominations - no way were they ever going to join with the society - support them and then turn on them yeah though :)

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nova_dew

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Re: WoB vs The Society
« Reply #28 on: 17 February 2012, 09:56:48 »
you gotta consider how many of the Shadows had DNI implants of some kind, they are on a timer.  you also have to consider how many shadows either gave up their reproductive capability to be augmented, or took some vow of celibacy (given they are a religious order that rejects organic life as imperfect)

the possibly of the Manei Domini order surviving as a culture from the missing shadows is next to non existent.  they either packed up and headed for the clan home worlds for a suicide run, or settled down on a Hidden World or an uncharted one and live out their years as best they could.  by 3150, they will be extinct, anyone claiming their mantle being just as much pretenders to the throne as the second Star League.

And you know all this as fact how?

Not to mention that a society that is insular will tend to stay the same it's outside influences that change them just look at the clans. As for the VDNI implants they're not organic so can be transferred after the users death. All they need is a way of replacing numbers and they have no problems with just taking what they want person or property.
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Nahuris

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Re: WoB vs The Society
« Reply #29 on: 17 February 2012, 12:00:16 »
And you know all this as fact how?

Not to mention that a society that is insular will tend to stay the same it's outside influences that change them just look at the clans. As for the VDNI implants they're not organic so can be transferred after the users death. All they need is a way of replacing numbers and they have no problems with just taking what they want person or property.

Now I have images of insane cyborgs, harvesting parts from "frails" to keep themselves going..... they serve the Master, and await his call....

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