Author Topic: If you could only have one class of WarShip...  (Read 14548 times)

DarthRads

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #60 on: 05 May 2017, 21:43:31 »
I'm actually wondering about your McKenna comparison if all 6 Robinsons were present.

I feel like its a Direwolf v/s Level-1 Light/Medium mechs scenario, where its going to smash 1 every turn, but maybe they get lucky & take it out.

Anything is possible, my point was that the SLDF spammed more Mckennas than the entire combined fleets of the Great Houses C2750!

DarthRads

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #61 on: 05 May 2017, 23:21:38 »
And for those playing at home...

LEVIATHAN III

MASS - 2 400 000
ARMOUR - 6000 (Rating 400t/point)
SI - 150 (Rating 16 000t/Point)
FIREPOWER - 1809 (Rating 1329.7t/Point)
THRUST - 3 (Rating 800000t/Point)
CARGO - 51 459 (Rating 46.64/1)
DROPSHIPS - 20 (Rating 120 000t/Hard Point)
FIGHTERS - 60 (Rating  40 000t/Fighter)
SMALL CRAFT - 10  (Rating 240 000t/Small Craft)

Where does this stack up?

ARMOUR - 1st
SI - Equal to a Dreadnought/Baron (About 63rd on the list)
FIREPOWER - About 45th on the list, Superior to a New Syrtis or Riga II but inferior to a Sov Soy on the ton-for-ton basis!
THRUST - Last, but no surprises there.
CARGO - 65th
DROPSHIPS - 55th
FIGHTERS - 20th
SMALL CRAFT - 45th

That's an average score of 47.25...

So despite being "Ship of Infinite Death", if you are restricted in your production (as this scenario is), the Lev III is not a wise choice.


Giovanni Blasini

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #63 on: 06 May 2017, 01:48:55 »
Turns out the Niops Association chose the Leviathan III.  ;D

Actually, in the FGC, we did Trackers. ;D
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Looter

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #64 on: 07 May 2017, 19:09:26 »
Where does the Feng Huang Upgrade rate? Just curious

sillybrit

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #65 on: 07 May 2017, 23:57:34 »
In the same time you could commission SIX Robinson IIs and have the equivelant of -

...

Yes your one Battleship could smash a Robinson, but while that is happening the other 5 are raiding your supply lines...

Disputing an aspect of your math: given the 250kt/year production capacity, it takes ~8 years to build a McKenna, during which time you're only going to build five Robinsons, not six. There's no reason to artificially inflate the timescale to a decade other than to give the Robinsons an extra sister ship, which is highly questionable. The Robinsons still possess a greater total of most of the figures you chose to quote, but the McKenna has superior raw damage compared to five Robinson IIs. Something else to bear in mind: the raw numbers only tell part of the story, as the McKenna has much better bay sizes, for example, giving superior bracketing capability and thus superior accuracy. More importantly, only the ASF and DropShip capacities matter, and the latter only for the possibility of carriers, the rest is just noise.

As for what the other four Robinsons are doing while you're feeding one to the McKenna - although I'd have to ask why you're doing that; just avoid it like the plague unless you're going to force a fleet action to kill it - the outcome depends upon whether they're operating independently or teamed up. If they're all operating together, then you effectively end up with equality: both sides have a single powerful WarShip-based force. If they're operating individually, a Robinson II is a more viable target for a realistic ASF attack by whomever you raid.

By realistic, I mean a few dozen ASFs, perhaps with DropShip support, enough to counter the Robinson's carried craft and get a solid strike through to the WarShip itself. A cruiser like the Aegis takes about 60 ASF to kill as I recall from Jellico's testing. The Robinson II has roughly comparable carried craft, armor and SI, but massively weaker armament - forget about its standard weapons; apart from that stern LRM bay, they're pitiful, and even that bay can only shoot one ASF/Capital fighter squadron per turn - so it's less capable of fighting off a determined ASF attack than an Aegis.

Also, raiding supply lines is much, much harder than you might think and a waste of a WarShip's time and capabilities.

Personally, I'd keep my Robinsons together until the McKenna was dead and even then I'd never operate them alone.


As for the original question: given the superiority of ASFs in aerospace combat, if I was forced  to field a WarShip for this scenario I'd opt for whatever carrier is available - so Leviathan II, Thera, Feng Huang (Upgrade), New Syrtis, Conqueror, York, Samarkand II - whichever gives me lots of 'free' ASFs due to their built-in bays. I'd avoid the Fox/Potemkin types, because exploiting their DropShip capacity to transport DropShip CVs is just one exploit too far for me.



Cryhavok101

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #66 on: 08 May 2017, 00:54:17 »
Feng Huang (Upgrade)

Slightly off topic, but I wasn't aware there was an upgrade to that ship, would you point me towards the book it is in please?

Maelwys

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #67 on: 08 May 2017, 07:05:50 »
Jihad Turning Point: Sian.

It basically drops 77k of cargo to add 123 fighters, and almost double its capital weapon bays. I think off hand only the Nose and Aft Naval Lasers remain the same, all other NLs and NPPCs are doubled. Its Lifeboats/escape pods are increased to 110 (Each), its Battle Armor triples, its passenger count drops by a couple of hundred, and of course, with all those fighters, its bay personnel increase.

Its conventional weaponry remains the same, as does its heat dissipation.

DarthRads

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #68 on: 08 May 2017, 07:09:56 »
Only went with decade as that was in the earlier conversation.

Maelwys

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #69 on: 08 May 2017, 12:20:10 »
Also as a small aside, I swear that I read somewhere that the Feng Huang (Upgrade) wasn't what was intended, but an amalgamation of plans. Basically there were going to be two different upgrades, a Carrier upgrade and a Gunboat upgrade (for lack of a better term). Due to events, instead of getting the two upgrades, we get a variant that takes a little bit of both.

Of course, I can't remember where I read this, but it seem familiar.

sillybrit

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #70 on: 08 May 2017, 21:28:09 »
Also as a small aside, I swear that I read somewhere that the Feng Huang (Upgrade) wasn't what was intended, but an amalgamation of plans. Basically there were going to be two different upgrades, a Carrier upgrade and a Gunboat upgrade (for lack of a better term). Due to events, instead of getting the two upgrades, we get a variant that takes a little bit of both.

Of course, I can't remember where I read this, but it seem familiar.

I recall the same. I think that it might have been in a post by one of TPTB, one or two board iterations ago, in response to a post/thread that bemoaned the relatively weak armament of the unmodified Feng Huang design. As I recall, the original Feng Huang was deliberately undergunned, because it was always intended to be the "base chassis", with the planned options of adding either two carrier or two gun "modules". The Feng Huang class wasn't quite meant to be an OmniWarShip, but more a standardized common set of plans for new or modified construction. With WarShip construction curtailed, both in-universe and in the game, as a compromise to get something in print, we got the Feng Huang Upgrade as it appears in JTP:Sian, mounting one of each module type.

DarthRads

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #71 on: 08 May 2017, 22:20:50 »
Okay...here are some tables.

Remember this is purely a ton-for-ton what do you get. It does not include LF batteries and the like, nor does it try to say the ability to carry DropShips is better than Fighter capacity. IT is purely what does the design give you per ton in each basic area.

For those that don't want to wade through all the other tables, here is the final one of most efficient to least...

1.   Samarkand II
2.   Samrakand I 
3.   Inzumi
4.   Fox
5.   Robinson II
6.   Robinson I
7.   Tracker
8.   Nightwing
9.   Kyushu
10.   Tatsumaki
11.   Pinto
12.   Fredasa
13.   Avalon
14.   Davion II
15.   York
16.   Riga II
17.   Tharkad
18.   Black Lion II
19.   Zech I
20.   Zech II
21.   Agamemnon
22.   Vigilant
23.   Feng Huang
24.   Aegis
25.   Winchester
26.   Thera
27.   Bonaventure
28.   Wagon Wheel
29.   Quixote
30.   New Syrtis
31.   SovSOy
32.   Stefan Amaris
33.   Luxor
34.   Sylvester
35.   Riga
36.   Kirishima
37.   Texas
38.   Mako
39.   Carrack - military
40.   Congress
41.   Carrack
42.   Monsoon
43.   Mckenna
44.   Concordat
45.   Leviathan III
46.   Cameron 
47.   Impervado
48.   Baron
49.   Carson
50.   Suffren
51.   League II
52.   Farragut
53.   Naga
54.   Eagle
55.   Dante
56.   Essex II
57.   Narakumi I
58.   Narakumi II
59.   Commonwealth II
60.   Lola III
61.   Vincent
62.   League
63.   Dart
64.   Agamemnon
65.   Liberator
66.   Avatar
67.   Kimiguri
68.   Volga
69.   Conqueror
70.   Athena
71.   Defender
72.   Davion I
73.   Essex I
74.   Du Shi Wang
75.   Mjolnir
76.   Nightlord
77.   Atreus
78.   Cruiser
79.   Whirlwind
80.   Potempkin
81.   Soyal
82.   Dreadnought
83.   M5 Drone
84.   Black Lion I

Giovanni Blasini

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #72 on: 08 May 2017, 23:01:23 »
Found a bug:  the Black Lion I is on your list as having zero small craft, when it actually carries 24.
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DarthRads

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #73 on: 08 May 2017, 23:37:23 »
Found a bug:  the Black Lion I is on your list as having zero small craft, when it actually carries 24.

Dangnamit...still...one bug out of nearly 700 data-points isn't to bad...

DarthRads

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #74 on: 08 May 2017, 23:38:22 »
Found a bug:  the Black Lion I is on your list as having zero small craft, when it actually carries 24.

That bumps it up to 39 on the list! (ships incurred penalties if they didn't carry any craft)
« Last Edit: 09 May 2017, 00:21:00 by DarthRads »

Giovanni Blasini

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #75 on: 09 May 2017, 00:09:30 »
Dangnamit...still...one bug out of nearly 700 data-points isn't to bad...

Yep. It's possible there are others, but I've been too busy matching up automotive paint codes to the official BBC pantone color code for Tardis Blue (Chrysler and GM Blue is nearly identical) for my VW Fastback I'm restoring.
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Giovanni Blasini

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #76 on: 09 May 2017, 00:10:34 »
That bumps it up to 39 on the list!

Sweet!
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DarthRads

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #77 on: 09 May 2017, 00:25:24 »
Where does the Feng Huang Upgrade rate? Just curious

I don't have the appropriate Turning Points/Hot Spots but based on the details on saran I gave it a 20% increase in gun power and the extra fighters, reduced the cargo by about 30000t to compensate and she jumps thee rungs higher on the list.

Looter

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #78 on: 11 May 2017, 04:59:45 »
Interesting.  It is one of the better rated big ships then.  I found this thread to seemingly be exactly what house liao did when it made the Feng Huang and Upgrade model.  Everyone else made more types in house so I have wondered how that would have worked if there was a level playing field so to speak between the major factions.

Looter

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #79 on: 11 May 2017, 05:10:32 »
I don't have the appropriate Turning Points/Hot Spots but based on the details on saran I gave it a 20% increase in gun power and the extra fighters, reduced the cargo by about 30000t to compensate and she jumps thee rungs higher on the list.

The cargo capacity does go down to just under 40000 but the firepower itself is nearly double as the weapons are exactly doubled exempting only the paired Nose and Aft NL/35's which allows it to fire everything on a side without issue from heat. But it is still an endurance race for the ship as it retains the all energy armament.

Maelwys

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #80 on: 11 May 2017, 05:44:42 »
I recall the same. I think that it might have been in a post by one of TPTB, one or two board iterations ago, in response to a post/thread that bemoaned the relatively weak armament of the unmodified Feng Huang design. As I recall, the original Feng Huang was deliberately undergunned, because it was always intended to be the "base chassis", with the planned options of adding either two carrier or two gun "modules". The Feng Huang class wasn't quite meant to be an OmniWarShip, but more a standardized common set of plans for new or modified construction. With WarShip construction curtailed, both in-universe and in the game, as a compromise to get something in print, we got the Feng Huang Upgrade as it appears in JTP:Sian, mounting one of each module type.

Well, glad I wasn't totally imagining it. Didn't figure that I was, just couldn't remember if it was something on the forums or if I was missing some fluff somewhere, like in one of the Jihad books.

Hellraiser

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #81 on: 12 May 2017, 21:13:44 »
Okay...here are some tables.

Remember this is purely a ton-for-ton what do you get. It does not include LF batteries and the like, nor does it try to say the ability to carry DropShips is better than Fighter capacity. IT is purely what does the design give you per ton in each basic area.

For those that don't want to wade through all the other tables, here is the final one of most efficient to least...

1.   Samarkand II
2.   Samrakand I 
3.   Inzumi
4.   Fox
5.   Robinson II
6.   Robinson I
7.   Tracker
8.   Nightwing
9.   Kyushu
10.   Tatsumaki
11.   Pinto
12.   Fredasa
13.   Avalon
14.   Davion II
15.   York
16.   Riga II
17.   Tharkad
18.   Black Lion II
19.   Zech I
20.   Zech II
21.   Agamemnon
22.   Vigilant
23.   Feng Huang
24.   Aegis
25.   Winchester
26.   Thera
27.   Bonaventure
28.   Wagon Wheel
29.   Quixote
30.   New Syrtis
31.   SovSOy
32.   Stefan Amaris
33.   Luxor
34.   Sylvester
35.   Riga
36.   Kirishima
37.   Texas
38.   Mako
39.   Carrack - military
40.   Congress
41.   Carrack
42.   Monsoon
43.   Mckenna
44.   Concordat
45.   Leviathan III
46.   Cameron 
47.   Impervado
48.   Baron
49.   Carson
50.   Suffren
51.   League II
52.   Farragut
53.   Naga
54.   Eagle
55.   Dante
56.   Essex II
57.   Narakumi I
58.   Narakumi II
59.   Commonwealth II
60.   Lola III
61.   Vincent
62.   League
63.   Dart
64.   Agamemnon
65.   Liberator
66.   Avatar
67.   Kimiguri
68.   Volga
69.   Conqueror
70.   Athena
71.   Defender
72.   Davion I
73.   Essex I
74.   Du Shi Wang
75.   Mjolnir
76.   Nightlord
77.   Atreus
78.   Cruiser
79.   Whirlwind
80.   Potempkin
81.   Soyal
82.   Dreadnought
83.   M5 Drone
84.   Black Lion I




Ton for ton, the most efficient design comes out as the ROBINSON II which beats out the SAMARKAND II by 1.25 points and the third-place FOX by 2.25.
Interestingly, the Mighty McKenna comes out as one of the most inefficient designs for its mass. 

What did you change about calculations that shifted things around from your original ranking?
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DarthRads

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #82 on: 13 May 2017, 04:18:58 »



What did you change about calculations that shifted things around from your original ranking?

Figuring out a #Div0 error