Author Topic: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!  (Read 249899 times)

Kidd

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #30 on: 14 August 2017, 01:06:49 »
First things first: HMS Queen Elizabeth and USS George W Bush, plus their respective escorts, recently on exercise off the UK coast. A portent of things to come, perhaps. Note that a Type 45 destroyer has joined the QE group, I can see 1 Burke and 1 Tico, not sure if there are other US escorts outside of the pic.





does carrier size matter for these assignments? i mean, would a Supercarrier like we have put more planes up as part of the CAP than a small carrier would?
Yes
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or would it be relative to the numbers of enemies you expect to encounter on a regular basis?
Also yes
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(in this scifi setting the carriers run between tiny stuff with a 18-20 fighters and massive ones with 500+. even in space it seems likely that a carrier would keep a CAP up and have ready fighters. but their enemies tend to be as much if not more so fighter heavy than they are. i'm just trying to figure out how a naval aviation tradition would adapt to the setting's space warfare.)
Carriers are designed with these thoughts in mind; what is the purpose of the carrier and its aircraft, what are the activity requirements that purpose would entail and how to meet them. Of course in war, things don't always go according to plan. During the Falklands war, the RN deployed two carriers which operated initially 20, later 28 Harrier fighters between them. (20 in HMS Hermes, 8 in HMS Invincible; the former is a WW2-era ship not designed for jets while the latter is primarily a heli-carrier.)

The carriers were located 100nm east of the Falklands. A maximum of 3 CAPs of 2 Sea Harriers each made up the first line of defence for the British task force. Each fighter pair would fly out for (SWAG) 20 minutes to take up station near the Falklands, cruise for 30 minutes, be relieved by the next pair, then fly 20 minutes back. (The trips in and out were longer than distance dictated due to the need to disguise the location of the task force.) Flight deck operations were continuous; at some points all 18 CAP aircraft were in the air simultaneously. Pilots had only a handful of hours to rest between sorties; at peak tempo each fighter flew a combat sortie at least 4 times a day.

This is/was about the maximum combat tempo that can be expected, and not regularly sustainable - fighters just don't go out that many times a day normally. But that was all the British worked with. The full CAP was not always maintained, probably reduced to just 2 fighters at times when some Harriers were sent on ground-attack missions which they did during the initial period from 1st May until 18th-19th May when 12 more Harriers (some of them land-attack variants) joined the fleet. Though the British were really depending on their destroyers to stop aerial attacks, the Sea Harrier CAP was essential not just to look for Argentine fighters but also for surface ships, as their radars were powerful enough to spot ships 100nm away.

For the 500+ fighter carrier battles, you may need to think more in terms of WW2. IF I recall correctly, at the Battle of Midway the US Navy had something like 12 fighters maintained on CAP and 24 at ready 10/15 (not sure) which launched only when IJN bombers were detected inbound. (The USN had the immeasurable advantage of radar.) IIRC the IJN tried to maintain at least 24 CAP throughout the day. As a result, the initial USN bomber squadrons were slaughtered while the subsequent squadrons were untouched by IJN fighters who had by then run out of bullets; meanwhile the US CAP was more effective at intercepting the IJN fighters.

There's a balance to be maintained between recon, strike and CAP; each WW2 carrier had as a minimum something like 12 recon, 24 bomber/torpedo and 24 fighters ready for operations. The flight deck however could only "spot" or prepare for launch up to 40 aircraft at a time, and it took a lot of extra time to bring up aircraft from below to prepare for take-off, change the order of take-offs, or rearrange the deck for landing... see how crowded USS Saratoga is below:


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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #31 on: 14 August 2017, 06:05:33 »
USS Salem (currently docked in Quincy, Massachusetts.  It's birth place.)  The was suppose to be moved to East Boston, but there been delays.  I've not visited the ship in years, but she not in so hot shape now.

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #32 on: 14 August 2017, 07:12:54 »
I hope there will be a better photo from the air of the two carriers. To show a difference between the two to show the differences.
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #33 on: 14 August 2017, 07:56:37 »
REMINDER

Please reduce picture sizes if it's a large image, guys. It's naval pictures thread, so I reserve the right to keel-haul you for giant images.
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #34 on: 14 August 2017, 08:15:41 »
First things first: HMS Queen Elizabeth and USS George W Bush, plus their respective escorts, recently on exercise off the UK coast. A portent of things to come, perhaps. Note that a Type 45 destroyer has joined the QE group, I can see 1 Burke and 1 Tico, not sure if there are other US escorts outside of the pic.


Is the 45 in the picture? All I see is the Tico, the Burke, two British frigates(I think only one is a 23, I'm not 100%), and a Fridtjof Nansen.
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Kidd

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #35 on: 14 August 2017, 08:32:15 »
Is the 45 in the picture? All I see is the Tico, the Burke, two British frigates(I think only one is a 23, I'm not 100%), and a Fridtjof Nansen.
Ah, you're right; my mistake, it's a Fridtjof Nansen, not a Type 45. This one's got a better angle of the Nansen-class:



From royalnavy.mod.uk: "As well as the USS George HW Bush, the group includes two Portsmouth-based Type 23 frigates, HMS Westminster and HMS Iron Duke, destroyer USS Donald Cook, missile cruiser USS Philippine Sea and the Norwegian frigate HNoMS Helge Ingstad."

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #36 on: 14 August 2017, 08:49:00 »
That is one impressive battle group...

Here's a question: If the unlikely event of an attack on that group as-is were to occur, would Queen Liz be able to contribute much even without planes, through the use of her command facilities, AA sensors/defenses, other?
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snewsom2997

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #37 on: 14 August 2017, 10:11:23 »
That is one impressive battle group...

Here's a question: If the unlikely event of an attack on that group as-is were to occur, would Queen Liz be able to contribute much even without planes, through the use of her command facilities, AA sensors/defenses, other?

Do they have enough CWIS, to shoot down a couple of hundred missiles from a Backfire Raid?

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #38 on: 14 August 2017, 10:28:16 »
Actually Russia has only about a hundred Backfires in service anymore, and most are hanger queens.

Don't confuse the current Russian military with the old Soviet Union.
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Kidd

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #39 on: 14 August 2017, 10:39:33 »
That is one impressive battle group...

Here's a question: If the unlikely event of an attack on that group as-is were to occur, would Queen Liz be able to contribute much even without planes, through the use of her command facilities, AA sensors/defenses, other?
Not at the moment, she apparently lacks everything and British carrier ops officers are playing the exercise from USS George HW Bush. She is even actually flagged currently as a civilian ship on govt service, and hence flies the Blue Ensign.

I was really looking forward to seeing Type 45 as well, I don't know why none are operating together with QE.

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #40 on: 14 August 2017, 10:49:13 »
Not at the moment, she apparently lacks everything and British carrier ops officers are playing the exercise from USS George HW Bush. She is even actually flagged currently as a civilian ship on govt service, and hence flies the Blue Ensign.

I was really looking forward to seeing Type 45 as well, I don't know why none are operating together with QE.


I think the Type 45s are mostly in the shop too
There are only 6 and apparently they don't like warm water  ???


I think the most QE could do in the event of an attack would be to draw fire away from the CVN  #P
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #41 on: 14 August 2017, 14:28:47 »
Wonder if the world would breathe easier if there wasn't ICBMs, ground based and water born.

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #42 on: 14 August 2017, 14:33:07 »


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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #43 on: 14 August 2017, 15:00:30 »
Wow, that's one wet weather deck.  No wonder Battleship sailors are drivin to swab the decks and keep the wood clean of salt!

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #44 on: 14 August 2017, 16:31:58 »
SMS Baden while it was being scuttled.
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #45 on: 14 August 2017, 20:37:43 »
Yep, I feel what you mean.

A sort of related story, went to a restaurant with my wife to celebrate our wedding anniversary last week. The restaurant had "Est. 1998" in their logo like it was a big deal that they had been around for 19 years. I have vivid memories of both 1992 and 1998. Growing up as a kid in the 80s, I am use to business with "Est. 196x" or earlier in their logo. The idea of a business marketing that they were established in the late-90s is something I am having difficulty getting my head around.
Well, um, happy anniversary?  Also, been there myself and more so everyday.

Here's an interesting article I just on HMS QUEEN ELIZABETH's islands:  http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/the-reasons-hms-queen-elizabeth-has-two-islands/

I'm aghast, for no reasonable reason aside from being on USN ships, at the size of the table on the Flag Bridge and corresponding waste of space.  My wife, the Meeting Planner, upon seeing the same picture, "seats eight and looks like a nice breakfast service."

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #46 on: 14 August 2017, 21:44:20 »
I'm aghast, for no reasonable reason aside from being on USN ships, at the size of the table on the Flag Bridge and corresponding waste of space.  My wife, the Meeting Planner, upon seeing the same picture, "seats eight and looks like a nice breakfast service."
well it is the British Navy. probably a tradition somewhere in their history explaining it.

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #47 on: 14 August 2017, 23:09:07 »
SMS Baden while it was being scuttled.

German Navy seems to have a lot of experience and expertise in scuttling warships . . .

Well, um, happy anniversary?  Also, been there myself and more so everyday.

Thanks, 9 years and still going strong (people get shorter sentences for murder nowadays . . . ^-^ )

I'm aghast, for no reasonable reason aside from being on USN ships, at the size of the table on the Flag Bridge and corresponding waste of space.  My wife, the Meeting Planner, upon seeing the same picture, "seats eight and looks like a nice breakfast service."

Being the Royal Navy Admiral's Flag Bridge it would have to be all the finest china and silver service in the best traditions of the Royal Navy. Us colonials are just simply not civilised enough to understand the need for this on the flag ship of Her Majesty's Navy  :D
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #48 on: 14 August 2017, 23:21:19 »
If you've got the room, no reason why not. At least there's plenty of room for maps and such.
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #49 on: 15 August 2017, 01:34:27 »
Looks like a folding table to me
I expect it can be "struck" when not needed or it would become the Admiral's main map table, quite possibly a smart table underneath if it isn't a folding table with a decorative protective cover
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #50 on: 15 August 2017, 03:06:45 »
Glitterboy, I hate to say it but, "it depends".  The "small carriers" that currently exist don't usually maintain a CAP at all because the kind of aircraft they carry aren't generally fighters.  The whole concept of CAP is based on the threat you're facing.  If you're not facing an air threat, you won't have a CAP at all.  If you are, you'll put up as strong of a Defensive Counter-Air (DCA) presence as needed to protect the carrier from it.  That kind of capability is sufficiently expensive to only exist if it's absolutely required.  If your universe has escorts with sufficiently strong anti-aircraft batteries, you may not need CAP at all.
i think i'm going to just put it as 2 fighters from each squadron on the ship.. so the small ships with only one squadron have two planes up (and maybe 2 more in the 'ready 5' situation), while the really big ships might have 50+ out there at a time. since the big ships are usually the centerpieces for fleets, this would not only give the smaller ships extra protection, but also give the fleet more eyes in the void. (honestly, the bigger issue is going to be explaining how they land.. whoever designed these ships loved to give them launch capacity.. but obvious landing capacity and locations not so much. gonna have to go with some of the less obvious options, not gonna be fun trying to explain how they work to readers/gamers who don't always understand things like 'conservation of momentum' or that ships in space do not have to always face the direction they are moving)
« Last Edit: 15 August 2017, 03:12:25 by glitterboy2098 »

Sharpnel

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #51 on: 15 August 2017, 04:20:09 »
Looks like a folding table to me
I expect it can be "struck" when not needed or it would become the Admiral's main map table, quite possibly a smart table underneath if it isn't a folding table with a decorative protective cover
Smart table? Is that possible/capable with the Windows 7 OS that the QE is reportedly equipped with?
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Kidd

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #52 on: 15 August 2017, 04:42:45 »
They strike the table away when preparing for combat probably....


....right before they run out the 32-pounders and have a bite of salt beef and hard tack ;D

Smart table? Is that possible/capable with the Windows 7 OS that the QE is reportedly equipped with?
That Windows business was just tabloid malarkey. The ships actually use a custom proprietary OS.

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #53 on: 15 August 2017, 05:34:22 »
I thought the main purpose was to split the aviation operations from the Navigational bridge to allow more room and less distractions.
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #54 on: 15 August 2017, 07:14:12 »
I thought the main purpose was to split the aviation operations from the Navigational bridge to allow more room and less distractions.
Apparently, it's not just that but for other practical reasons as well.
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #55 on: 15 August 2017, 07:27:35 »
I thought the main purpose was to split the aviation operations from the Navigational bridge to allow more room and less distractions.


It looks like it is more about having separated funnels for the engines and realising that having a gap between the islands rather than more above-the-flight-deck office space was better for... reasons... in the wind tunnel. You can tell I'm no good at things like engineering and physics!


They strike the table away when preparing for combat probably....


....right before they run out the 32-pounders and have a bite of salt beef and hard tack ;D


You forgot the rum. It's all about the rum.


That Windows business was just tabloid malarkey. The ships actually use a custom proprietary OS.


A friend has some responsibility for the medical care that will be arranged for these ships and I think she is currently looking at it being high tech, unhackable, EMP-hardened... paper
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #56 on: 15 August 2017, 07:31:38 »
I have no idea what you guys are even talking about. Two superstructures? Flight ops? I've been poring over the image here for an hour and can't find any of this.

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #57 on: 15 August 2017, 07:35:23 »
*snark* Is that canopy-covered sun deck I see above the bridge area?
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #58 on: 15 August 2017, 07:45:37 »
*snark* Is that canopy-covered sun deck I see above the bridge area?


Probably


Here's a copy of the photo of the mixed CVBG
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #59 on: 15 August 2017, 07:46:42 »
and here's a photo of KGV and the earlier HMS Queen Elizabeth
Admittedly, it is HM King George The Fifth rather than HMS but still...


Also check out the size of them guns!
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