Author Topic: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!  (Read 11174 times)

Daryk

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #480 on: 12 October 2017, 20:17:02 »
IMHO, the French are generally highly pragmatic and conservative in defence spending, and their defence programs have much to be admired. The downside of that attitude is seeming unwillingness to take very expensive risks such as committing to 2 carriers, which is really what is needed to keep at least 1 flattop deployed at all times.
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Nightlord01

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #481 on: 13 October 2017, 03:48:34 »
It's actually three to make one. Two only works if nothing ever breaks out of schedule.

Sort of. We use the rule of three to one because you will traditionally have one in refit, one in work up, one in operational service, but the operational service window is longer than the refit/workup requirement, three will actually get you roughly 60-75% service time, as opposed to 45-55%.

Should you really, really need those ships, say in combat against a parity opponent, the refits aren't going to happen for anything other than a catastrophic failure, similar to aircraft, your service availability is around 90%, as you will still require some scheduled maintenance and fueling/replenishment.

Kidd

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #482 on: 13 October 2017, 05:19:32 »
For the USN, long transit times from homeports to most operational areas make the 1 in 3 rule a must.

For the RN, and probably France, 1 in 2 is doable. Big Liz and POW (no idea what nickname the Brits have appended) expect to take turns with 2-3 months' overlap actually.

On the subject of overseas territories, the British territories are more scattered and smaller than the French, hence a different approach to overseas garrisons of which a carrier capability is essential. Gibraltar, Falklands and Crete are the only ones I can think off the top of my head with a sizable garrison, additionally Brunei is host to the Gurkhas (ever since they were instrumental in defeating a coup, the Sultan of Brunei has funded at least 1 battalion of them based there) plus whichever infantry battalion and SAS troops are doing jungle training at the time.
« Last Edit: 13 October 2017, 05:22:13 by Kidd »

kato

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #483 on: 13 October 2017, 06:27:59 »
The rotation factor mostly depends on how a ship is used. In Germany the calculation is 3.0 for regular units for full forward deployments, i.e. continuous missions (i.e. to keep deploying a frigate to somewhere around the Horn of Africa you need three frigates in total). For "readiness", i.e. keeping a unit available near home for deployment to contingency missions of up to 6 months within any given year a rotation factor of 1.5 is used. For submarines due to higher maintenance requirements rotation factors of 4.0 and 2.0 are used respectively.

To my knowledge the French calculation is virtually identical, and Charles de Gaulle and her escorts are on a 1.5 RF.

The idea about 2 Lizzies and 1 CdG numbers-wise was to have two carriers (on a 1.5 RF) jointly available under the Lancaster Agreement.

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #484 on: 13 October 2017, 07:13:40 »
Interesting that the French are having so much trouble with the engines, considering something like 70% of France's electricity is provided by nuclear power plants. They know how to build them and get power, I wonder what's plaguing them on the CDG.
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #485 on: 13 October 2017, 07:40:04 »
I believe the 3 for 1 for RAN as Nightlord said is the reason why HMAS Choules is being kept after it was initially bought as a stop-gap between the early retirement of HMAS Manoora (formerly USS Fairfax County) and HMAS Kanimbla (formerly USS Saginaw) and arrival of HMAS Canberra and HMAS Adelaide.
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Wrangler

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #486 on: 13 October 2017, 07:51:10 »
I believe the 3 for 1 for RAN as Nightlord said is the reason why HMAS Choules is being kept after it was initially bought as a stop-gap between the early retirement of HMAS Manoora (formerly USS Fairfax County) and HMAS Kanimbla (formerly USS Saginaw) and arrival of HMAS Canberra and HMAS Adelaide.
The HMAS Manoora (formerly USS Fairfax County) and HMAS Kanimbla (formerly USS Saginaw) were in poor shape from what I've heard, right?
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #487 on: 13 October 2017, 08:31:48 »
Yep, we had to spend an extra $400 million during the refit to get rid of all the rust before we commissioned them, then we had to retire them early because their machinery started to fail in spectacular fashion (http://www.smh.com.au/national/ship-metres-from-harbour-crash-20110223-1b5o2.html) and give the squid brown underpants moments (I understand this is never good when you are wearing whites). The cost of the machinery repairs/refits were going to be excessive for two old rustbuckets that were only a few years away from retirement.


HMAS Kanimbla

Incoming fire has the right of way.

The only thing more accurate than incoming enemy fire is incoming friendly fire.

Always remember that your weapon was built by the lowest bidder.


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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #488 on: 13 October 2017, 08:34:50 »
Interesting that the French are having so much trouble with the engines, considering something like 70% of France's electricity is provided by nuclear power plants. They know how to build them and get power, I wonder what's plaguing them on the CDG.

Well, like I'd said with the USS Oregon City, sometimes a ship just has trouble that can't be explained. That ship was the first of her class, but her sisters worked fine (and were in fact converted to missile cruisers, while OC was retired within two years of completion and scrapped), and the class was little more than a sub-class of the Baltimores, of which the Americans completed quite a few. In this one odd case though, what should have been 'same ol' tunes' for the shipyard ended up just never really working right. Whether that's the case for de Gaulle or not is hard to say, being a one-ship class, but it's worth noting that none of their nuclear-powered subs have had any major problems that I'm aware of, anyway. They clearly know what they're doing in a broad sense at least- just in this particular case, it's not panning out.

Note that even a refit at Norfolk several years ago didn't resolve the problems, which means even American engineers (who certainly know nuclear carriers by now!) were left scratching their heads. Maybe the current refit will finally resolve things, who knows?

And another photo because I hate posting in here without leaving one, here she is in company with USS Dwight D. Eisenhower.

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kato

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #489 on: 13 October 2017, 09:11:53 »
Interesting that the French are having so much trouble with the engines, considering something like 70% of France's electricity is provided by nuclear power plants. They know how to build them and get power, I wonder what's plaguing them on the CDG.
The problem with propulsion at initial trials wasn't the reactors but the propellers (the special design had material problems leading to cracks, so they installed old propellers for the cruise back that they got from whereever - which then had problems with vibration in this setup).

The problem in 2010 wasn't even propulsion - there were microleaks in the insulation (!) of an electrical cabinet controlling a safety valve for the reactors. With triple redudancy on that valve. Since this was on the nuclear circuit and France wasn't in a state of emergency the Navy had the same safety regulations to follow as a civilian nuclear plant operator - full cold stop, replacement, testing of the new valve.

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #490 on: 13 October 2017, 16:18:07 »
The problem with propulsion at initial trials wasn't the reactors but the propellers (the special design had material problems leading to cracks, so they installed old propellers for the cruise back that they got from whereever - which then had problems with vibration in this setup).

The problem in 2010 wasn't even propulsion - there were microleaks in the insulation (!) of an electrical cabinet controlling a safety valve for the reactors. With triple redudancy on that valve. Since this was on the nuclear circuit and France wasn't in a state of emergency the Navy had the same safety regulations to follow as a civilian nuclear plant operator - full cold stop, replacement, testing of the new valve.


I guess an aircraft carrier's machinery needs to do different things to a submarine; it isn't necessarily the nuclear reactor that has different requirements (it just sits there and glows in the corner) but while a submarine might try to sneak around slowly and very very quietly most of the time, a carrier needs to turn into the wind and sail (steam?) quickly to create the wind over the bow to help lift the aircraft


And now here are some photos...
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #491 on: 13 October 2017, 16:19:24 »
oh, and I really hope HMS Prince of Wales grows a bit, she's still only a baby carrier
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Weirdo

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #492 on: 13 October 2017, 16:27:48 »
Anyone knew if this is a reliable info source?

http://navalanalyses.blogspot.com/2017/09/turkish-navy-modernization-and.html?m=1

According to that article Turkey may be joining the light carrier club in the near future.
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kato

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #493 on: 13 October 2017, 16:45:12 »
Anyone knew if this is a reliable info source?
Didn't read anywhere there beyond the Rule 4 venturing first paragraph.

According to that article Turkey may be joining the light carrier club in the near future.
They've been planning that for a while. TCG Anadolu has been in construction since May 2016, planned to be delivered in 2021 and operational by 2023, by buying the Juan Carlos design and building it locally; the Navantia-Sedef cooperation won over a competing domestic design and a Chinese offer. Originally it was planned in the Australian layout without a ski ramp; this was later re-added to the design (the shipyard manages to misspell it as "sky ramp" though).

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #494 on: 13 October 2017, 17:03:24 »
Didn't read anywhere there beyond the Rule 4 venturing first paragraph.

I don't see it. But if you report it and the rest of the mods agree with you, I'll certainly take the Warning.
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I am Belch II

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #495 on: 13 October 2017, 17:26:54 »
Seems like a lot of nations are getting in the Helicopter carrier business. I wonder if Canada will get into it. I like how some of them say they are not built for F35s but most of the nations that are building the ships will have F35
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #496 on: 13 October 2017, 17:57:01 »
The question that may not be answerable on this forum is: What are the Canadians up to/want to be up to that requires a carrier?
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #497 on: 13 October 2017, 18:11:30 »
Protecting Tim Hortons?

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Kidd

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #498 on: 16 October 2017, 01:46:16 »
@kato - ah, so the technical term is the rotation factor, thanks.

oh, and I really hope HMS Prince of Wales grows a bit, she's still only a baby carrier
They grow up so fast don't they?



Seems like a lot of nations are getting in the Helicopter carrier business. I wonder if Canada will get into it. I like how some of them say they are not built for F35s but most of the nations that are building the ships will have F35
Only the USMC, UK and Italy are buying F-35Bs, the latter 2 for the QE-class and Cavour respectively, everyone else is buying the land-based A variant or in the case of the USN, the C variant for the Nimitzes/Fords

Cavour and Garibaldi, 2 years ago


HUGE version here: http://i.imgur.com/jS2vdUH.jpg

A lot of navies discovered that helicopter carriers or LPDs are very handy in peacetime as well as in war. But I think, given the Canucks' budget, they are better off focusing on recapitalising their frigate fleet.

glitterboy2098

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #499 on: 16 October 2017, 04:24:28 »
the C variant probably won't see much spread.. the USN is about the only user of catapults for the near future aside from the French, and the French haven't show any interest in the F-35 (probably because the Rafale suffices for most of their needs)

Nightlord01

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #500 on: 16 October 2017, 05:15:21 »
I believe the 3 for 1 for RAN as Nightlord said is the reason why HMAS Choules is being kept after it was initially bought as a stop-gap between the early retirement of HMAS Manoora (formerly USS Fairfax County) and HMAS Kanimbla (formerly USS Saginaw) and arrival of HMAS Canberra and HMAS Adelaide.

That's 90% of the reason, the other 10% is that Adelaide and Canberra can't fit into every harbour... When those ladies hit FoC, Choules might get a rest although we'll probably keep her going because she's a nice asset to have, if a little fragile.

Yep, we had to spend an extra $400 million during the refit to get rid of all the rust before we commissioned them, then we had to retire them early because their machinery started to fail in spectacular fashion (http://www.smh.com.au/national/ship-metres-from-harbour-crash-20110223-1b5o2.html) and give the squid brown underpants moments (I understand this is never good when you are wearing whites). The cost of the machinery repairs/refits were going to be excessive for two old rustbuckets that were only a few years away from retirement.


HMAS Kanimbla


Eh, every ship rusts, it's part of being made from steel. :-P

Mind you, for the purpose they were bought for, Kanimbla and Manoora were some of the greatest value for money the RAN ever justified. (Hint: They weren't bought for the purpose you likely think).

Feenix74

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #501 on: 16 October 2017, 06:24:53 »
Well, me thinks that Kanimbla and Manoora were bought as the first tentative steps for the RAN getting a proper Fleet Air Arm again . . .

As a blue-suiter who served with a number of ex-Fleet Air Arm types, I look forward to the day O0
Incoming fire has the right of way.

The only thing more accurate than incoming enemy fire is incoming friendly fire.

Always remember that your weapon was built by the lowest bidder.


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I am Belch II

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #502 on: 16 October 2017, 07:08:34 »
The C Lighting model looks like will only go to the US. Some countries like Canada and Austrilia might be interested in the C more because of the more fuel and more range for the large area that needs to be covered. But I doubt it.
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #503 on: 16 October 2017, 07:29:13 »
oh, and I really hope HMS Prince of Wales grows a bit, she's still only a baby carrier
In that pic it looks almost like its a modern version of the HMS M2.

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #504 on: 16 October 2017, 07:43:03 »
The C Lighting model looks like will only go to the US. Some countries like Canada and Austrilia might be interested in the C more because of the more fuel and more range for the large area that needs to be covered. But I doubt it.
Weren't Norway looking at the C? They've got a lot of short airstrips and pretty long distances, so IIRC they thought the carrier variant would work better.

Or did it turn out that the runway requirement for the A and the C are similar if you don't have catapults and arrestor wires?

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #505 on: 16 October 2017, 08:10:49 »
Norway currently operates 6 F-35A s trainers in the USA with 46 more on the way
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I am Belch II

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #506 on: 16 October 2017, 09:57:25 »
The C model would work best for many nations that are quite large. The C has a huge fuel load internally, hose and drouge refueling that many nations use. Getting rid of the arrester gear should be a easy fix. The only major factor of the C that the A is the G limit. The C is only good for 7.5 G while the A is rated for 9G, so that might be a factor in the "dogfight"
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #507 on: 16 October 2017, 10:55:06 »
I dunno, what about the Israeli solution? F-35As with CFTs?

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #508 on: 16 October 2017, 10:59:09 »
Goin' old-school for a bit with an F-4K launch from HMS Ark Royal.

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #509 on: 16 October 2017, 14:00:51 »
The French flew the Last Gunfighter off of flat tops  also.
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