Author Topic: LRMs in an Anti Air raft role...what works.  (Read 3695 times)

tomaddamz

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LRMs in an Anti Air raft role...what works.
« on: 01 October 2017, 20:00:22 »
It's been awhile since I have looked at ground units interacting with aircraft.  With that said i am working with a 10 ton budget and a requirement for anti-aircraft capability.  So far i am either looking at a trio of LRM5s or a single LRM 15.  Out of these 2 choices which is the superior option?
Saying that because the equipment isn't up-to-the-minute, bleeding-edge tech therefore not a threat is like saying an M2 Browning isn't dangerous to modern infantry because it is 100 years old.

TigerShark

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Re: LRMs in an Anti Air raft role...what works.
« Reply #1 on: 01 October 2017, 20:40:06 »
It's been awhile since I have looked at ground units interacting with aircraft.  With that said i am working with a 10 ton budget and a requirement for anti-aircraft capability.  So far i am either looking at a trio of LRM5s or a single LRM 15.  Out of these 2 choices which is the superior option?
Single LRM-15 with heat-seeking missiles for one ton of ammo, standard for the other. The LRM-15 will at least hit in one or two, 5-point clusters. That's needed to threshold the Aero and cause a critical hit. The 3-point average of the LRM-5 won't do a whole lot, unless it's a tiny, under-armored fighter.
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Daryk

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Re: LRMs in an Anti Air raft role...what works.
« Reply #2 on: 02 October 2017, 03:09:13 »
On an airless world that would be true, but if your ground vehicle is going to be in an atmosphere, the most important thing is causing lawn dart checks, and thresholding isn't a requirement for that.  With a 10 ton budget, I'd go for 4 LRM-5s with two tons of ammo to maximize the chances of hitting.

TigerShark

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Re: LRMs in an Anti Air raft role...what works.
« Reply #3 on: 02 October 2017, 09:21:03 »
On an airless world that would be true, but if your ground vehicle is going to be in an atmosphere, the most important thing is causing lawn dart checks, and thresholding isn't a requirement for that.  With a 10 ton budget, I'd go for 4 LRM-5s with two tons of ammo to maximize the chances of hitting.
Ah. As I don't play with the TW rules, "lawn dart" wouldn't apply. Didn't think about that. So that's a caveat, then. :) This would depend upon the rule set being used.
« Last Edit: 02 October 2017, 09:23:00 by TigerShark »
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AlphaMirage

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Re: LRMs in an Anti Air raft role...what works.
« Reply #4 on: 02 October 2017, 11:45:23 »
Id use the larger LRM 15 for the chance to threshold.  I also don't use the every hit Lawn Dart check (just for any hit, over twenty, and critical rolls).  But I also try to standardize my racks and I like that ones balance the best.

RoundTop

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Re: LRMs in an Anti Air raft role...what works.
« Reply #5 on: 02 October 2017, 12:24:56 »
LB5X AC using cluster munitions, or a LAC/5 with AA rounds.  Both give nice bonuses to hit, which your missiles don't have.
No-Dachi has a counter-argument. Nothing further? Ok.
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TigerShark

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Re: LRMs in an Anti Air raft role...what works.
« Reply #6 on: 02 October 2017, 13:20:32 »
The lawn dart rule is very unfair to the Aero player. The StratOps rules are much more elegant, IMO.  I would agree with it if you (a) lost control for 1 round and (b) lost 1 Altitude, maximum. Not 6 lol.

No other unit has the 1-in-3 chance to instantly die from a PSR failure in BattleTech. That means that Aero's BV is incredibly inflated, if you're using this rule. A 2,000 BV Aero that can die in 1 hit isn't "2,000 BV"; it's a fraction thereof. Just like when you have an XLE or explosive locations, your BV is reduced. Why? Decreased survivability. It should be the same with Aero under the "lawn dart rule."
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Weirdo

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Re: LRMs in an Anti Air raft role...what works.
« Reply #7 on: 02 October 2017, 14:07:09 »
House rules have their own section of the forum, use it, please.

Regarding the actual topic of this thread. If you want better odds of generating threshold crits, I'd go for the 15-pack. If you're trying to score any hit at all and hope that lawn darts do the rest, go for the fives.
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TigerShark

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Re: LRMs in an Anti Air raft role...what works.
« Reply #8 on: 02 October 2017, 14:29:49 »
House rules have their own section of the forum, use it, please.

Regarding the actual topic of this thread. If you want better odds of generating threshold crits, I'd go for the 15-pack. If you're trying to score any hit at all and hope that lawn darts do the rest, go for the fives.
StrategicOps can't be discussed?
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Re: LRMs in an Anti Air raft role...what works.
« Reply #9 on: 02 October 2017, 14:44:50 »
If StratOps has an optional rule saying throw out lawn darts, then my mistake, carry on, and please keep in mind that it looks like the vast majority of players don't use it, or might not even know about it.
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mbear

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Re: LRMs in an Anti Air raft role...what works.
« Reply #10 on: 02 October 2017, 14:55:10 »
StrategicOps can't be discussed?

If StratOps has an optional rule saying throw out lawn darts, then my mistake, carry on, and please keep in mind that it looks like the vast majority of players don't use it, or might not even know about it.

What page is the optional rule on?
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bluedragon7

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Re: LRMs in an Anti Air raft role...what works.
« Reply #11 on: 02 October 2017, 16:40:48 »
Page 97 and it’s called advanced rule, not optional ;—)

TigerShark

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Re: LRMs in an Anti Air raft role...what works.
« Reply #12 on: 02 October 2017, 17:08:21 »
If StratOps has an optional rule saying throw out lawn darts, then my mistake, carry on, and please keep in mind that it looks like the vast majority of players don't use it, or might not even know about it.
While true, players weren't aware of the Anti-Aircraft rule from StratOps either. And that ended up being errata'd to become part of TW. :)

People can obviously use whatever they'd like. I do believe the current TW rule is a holdover from AeroTech2, when fighters appeared on the "radar map", flew over the battlefield, then back onto the radar. This worked pretty well within the tech of the day, but now that we have Hyper-Assault Gauss, and LB-X gets a -3 to-hit Aero, the "lawn dart" rule isn't very good in comparison to the more modern StratOps rule on requiring PSRs only if you threshold the fighter.

So to get back to the original post, yes. The LRM-5 spam is the best method to trigger the lawn dart. My only question is whether that rule is fun to use for the Aero player, who can lose a 3,500 BV Clan fighter to, say, a single LB-2X shell in one turn.
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Daryk

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Re: LRMs in an Anti Air raft role...what works.
« Reply #13 on: 02 October 2017, 17:58:18 »
Not that I use BV, but it looks like a not so subtle attempt to encourage players to spend their points on 'mechs instead...

Col Toda

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Re: LRMs in an Anti Air raft role...what works.
« Reply #14 on: 02 October 2017, 18:27:01 »
I recommend 4 or 5 improved One Shot LRM 10s

mbear

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Re: LRMs in an Anti Air raft role...what works.
« Reply #15 on: 03 October 2017, 06:29:32 »
So to sum up the thread to this point, there are two points of view regarding LRMs in the AAA role:

1. Force control rolls (lawn dart checks) by using a large number of smaller launchers. The objective here is to damage control surfaces and force the fighter to crash into the ground. Not useful in space combat as there's no ground to crash into.

2. Use a single large launcher to break through the fighter's threshold and inflict critical hits. This is useful in both atmosphere and space, but in atmosphere it may take longer.

Is that about right?
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Re: LRMs in an Anti Air raft role...what works.
« Reply #16 on: 03 October 2017, 08:24:53 »
Pretty much. Any LRM rack will make a fairly good AA weapon simply by fulfilling rules 1-99 of the 100 rules of AA, so really it's mostly a matter of taste.
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tomaddamz

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Re: LRMs in an Anti Air raft role...what works.
« Reply #17 on: 03 October 2017, 09:46:43 »
Ok, so depending on the rules in play will determine which is the optimal solution.  The one thing i am sold on and yet not sold on are the heat seeking missiles.  As far as an AAM solution it only gets bonuses 16% of the time( the rear aspect, so a vengeance shot after you are hit) and takes a penalty the other 83% of the time.  As a support solution i see the potential in conjunction with inferno SRMs as a low-end NARC system.

Now why i had limited myself to the 1x LRM15 or 3x LRM5s, i wanted to make sure i had sufficient ammo for my primary purpose(which i have usually determined to be ideally 15 rounds) anything else i can get useful support ammo, which is why i ruled out any ACs as they would uni task ( and don't give me the option on fire indirectly).
Saying that because the equipment isn't up-to-the-minute, bleeding-edge tech therefore not a threat is like saying an M2 Browning isn't dangerous to modern infantry because it is 100 years old.

Col Toda

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Re: LRMs in an Anti Air raft role...what works.
« Reply #18 on: 03 October 2017, 10:03:42 »
Sorry I thought AA was the primary purpose and since aerospace units tend to be over the battlefield one out of every three turns the improved One Shot battery of launchers seemed to be a better approach.

TigerShark

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Re: LRMs in an Anti Air raft role...what works.
« Reply #19 on: 03 October 2017, 10:18:06 »
Sorry I thought AA was the primary purpose and since aerospace units tend to be over the battlefield one out of every three turns the improved One Shot battery of launchers seemed to be a better approach.
Three turns? O.o
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tomaddamz

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Re: LRMs in an Anti Air raft role...what works.
« Reply #20 on: 03 October 2017, 10:32:27 »
Sorry I thought AA was the primary purpose and since aerospace units tend to be over the battlefield one out of every three turns the improved One Shot battery of launchers seemed to be a better approach.
The only thing is that that 10 tons becomes ballast very quickly with OS systems, then there is always the tempation to dump on a target of opportunity, compromising your primary purpose.
Saying that because the equipment isn't up-to-the-minute, bleeding-edge tech therefore not a threat is like saying an M2 Browning isn't dangerous to modern infantry because it is 100 years old.

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Re: LRMs in an Anti Air raft role...what works.
« Reply #21 on: 03 October 2017, 11:53:42 »
A big question is: what else do you want to use your LRMs for?  If the answer is, nothing, then just take an LB5 or 2 or something like that (though I do favor the lawn dart check, so if you're not using that the LB, despite it's incredible TN bonus, may be a worse choice).

But, the lovely thing about LRMs is you can also shoot mechs, and tanks (LBs are good for that too) and BA, and all that.  As you point out, you can use indirect fire.  So, a quick bit of math shows that three LRM5s offers you more ammo, meaning more special ammo options.  Lots of tiny mine fields?  A semi-guided option?  NARC?  Sky's the limit.  The LRM15 is better if you're thinking of using an Artemis system (some like them, some don't), and you get more 5 point hits which is good for many reasons.  And if you just need damage, you can do four LRM5s, which hurts your ammo (12 salvos) but more hits and more total chances to hit (vs all or nothing with the LRM15).

I tend to favor bigger racks just for ease of play, but it's pretty nearly a toss up I think.
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Re: LRMs in an Anti Air raft role...what works.
« Reply #22 on: 03 October 2017, 13:18:45 »
Sorry I thought AA was the primary purpose and since aerospace units tend to be over the battlefield one out of every three turns the improved One Shot battery of launchers seemed to be a better approach.

You mean three out of every three turns. Aside from the initial approach to the battlefield, a fighter is either hitting ground units every turn, has a very good reason to avoid the ground map area(likely enemy fighters), or is controlled by a player who hasn't read the aero movement rules.

Also, he very specifically asked only about LRM-5s and LRM-15s. If he wanted to hear about anything other than those two, I suspect he would have asked.
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