Get out of the 80's: Let's modernize BattleTech

[Fear Factory]

The whole idea of this thread is to attempt to streamline the game.  I want it to be a huge discussion of house rules/improvements so we can make it faster and more appealing.

Here are a few examples I have:

Movement - Something that works fast, a lot like Alpha Strike hexagon play, without compromising too much of strategic movement.  However, there are still movement ratings.  Each unit retains their Walk/Run/Jump movement with the addition of "Stand Still."  A unit chooses their movement mode and moves that amount of hexes (still spending MP for facing changes, etc) but gets their full TMM.  This way, you're still counting hexes, but not to the point where the game is getting bogged down from min/max movement to get that highest possible TMM.

Targeting - Considering movement change, Targeting modifiers will also change.  They're lowered slightly since units now get their full TMM.

Stand Still:  - 1
Walk: + 0
Run: + 1
Jump:  + 2

I have more ideas and I will contribute more later.

[Fear Factory]

Also, to be clear, this isn't a thread for custom weapons and design improvements.  However, you can post improvements/changes for weapons (range, modifiers, abilities, etc).  I actually want to find a way that will make even Introductory weapons feel less vanilla...

[Red Pins]

Modernize, and vanilla is what you're going to get.  Otherwise, I don't see a lot of choice - play Alpha Strike for a more streamlined game, I guess.  The absurd pile of rules and stuff IS battletech.

[Fear Factory]

Modernize, and vanilla is what you're going to get.  Otherwise, I don't see a lot of choice - play Alpha Strike for a more streamlined game, I guess.  The absurd pile of rules and stuff IS battletech.

But does it have to be?

I'm sure there are ways to have a complicated game where it needs it, and ways to make it go faster.

[nckestrel]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7azm6z652bk5poh/BattleTech%20Mercenaries.doc?dl=0

Probably reduced things more than you are intending. 

[Red Pins]

So - a board game?  Cards for Mechs, tanks, infantry?  Cards for missions?  It isn't a bad idea - have you spoken to the other beamers about it?  Because I'm looking at this and reminding myself what happened to the card game.

Oh, and is that your name?  BattleTech: Mercenaries by Joshua Franklin?  Can I keep it and list it in the fan projects thread?   

[Fear Factory]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7azm6z652bk5poh/BattleTech%20Mercenaries.doc?dl=0

Probably reduced things more than you are intending.

Glancing through, pretty cool idea but yes it is reduced a bit too much.

[Fear Factory]

One of the other things I would like to see, but may not work, would be a change in weapon ranges that mimics AeroTech ranges.  Also, abilities that apply to each type of weapon:

Code: [Select]

Lasers Range (S/M/L)*

Small Laser 3/-/-
Medium Laser 3/9/-
Large Laser 3/15/-

Laser Weapons:  All laser weapon attacks against can force a PSR but get a -1 modifier.

Code: [Select]

Particle Projector Cannons Range (S/M/L)*
PPC                 3/15/18 Min 3

PPC Weapons:  The weapon has a slight delay before it fires because it charges, +1 target modifier

Code: [Select]

Anti Infantry   Range (S/M/L)*
Flamer 3/-/-
Machine Gun 3/-/-

Flamer:  Causes both heat and damage (2) to a target, also causes 1d6 damage to infantry per point of damage
Machine Gun:  +1 modifier for causing critical hits, also causes 1d6 damage to infantry per point of damage

Code: [Select]

Autocannons     Range (S/M/L)*
Autocannon 2 3/15/24 Min 2, increase damage to 3
Autocannon 5 3/15/18 Min 1, increase damage to 7
Autocannon 10 3/15/-, increase damage to 11
Autocannon 20 3/9/-

Autocannons:  +1 modifier for causing critical hits, +1 PSR bonus against targets on attacks that cause 20+ damage

Code: [Select]

Missiles        Range (S/M/L)*
LRM (All) 3/15/21, Min 6
SRM (All) 3/9/-

SRM's:  +1 on missile hit chart at short range, -1 on missile hit chart at long range
LRM's:  -1 on missile hit chart at short range, +1 on missile hit chart at long range

Just some rough ideas...

[NeonKnight]

The whole idea of this thread is to attempt to streamline the game.  I want it to be a huge discussion of house rules/improvements so we can make it faster and more appealing.

Here are a few examples I have:

Movement - Something that works fast, a lot like Alpha Strike hexagon play, without compromising too much of strategic movement.  However, there are still movement ratings.  Each unit retains their Walk/Run/Jump movement with the addition of "Stand Still."  A unit chooses their movement mode and moves that amount of hexes (still spending MP for facing changes, etc) but gets their full TMM.  This way, you're still counting hexes, but not to the point where the game is getting bogged down from min/max movement to get that highest possible TMM.

Targeting - Considering movement change, Targeting modifiers will also change.  They're lowered slightly since units now get their full TMM.

Stand Still:  - 1
Walk: + 0
Run: + 1
Jump:  + 2

I have more ideas and I will contribute more later.

I've gone full ALPHA STRIKE movement mode for my home games. In other words, only pay for moving into hexes, and don't worry about facing with a few caveats:

Stand Still:  - 1
Move: + 0
Jump:  + 2

So, no Walk/Run, just either stand still, Move or Jump. and final hex determine facing.

We do allow for SPRINT movement (same as the AS movement of the same name, with same penalties) with the caveat that the final hex of movement ends with the unit facing the direction they entered the Hex (no free turn for last hex)

And just like AS, no spotting etc for Sprinting units except if they posses the Gun It from the Combat Manuals:

Gun it: The Units in this Force may sprint (see AS, p. 63) and attack, but do so with a +1 To-Hit penalty and increase their Heat Scale by 1*.

* If playing a non-AS game, the heat extra heat is 10 points of heat.

We've tweaked this as follows:

 - The Penalty above is for Mech's & Aero
 - Non Heat tracking units (infantry and vehicles) instead have a +2 penalty (similar to jump)to account for the 'bumpy travel' from going full out across a field etc.
 - allow spotting (with the penalties for both heat and/or To-Hit penalty)

By and large it works quite well, is very simple, less minutia and makes the movement phase much faster if you only need to count hexes moved.

[Fear Factory]

Alpha Strike movement just feels so good.  It's fast, and it really amps up the usefulness of light 'Mechs which is something that BattleTech honestly slacks off on.  Most of the games I played are slow because players are constantly trying to find their best TMM.  Not that it's a bad thing, it's just a product of BattleTech's design.

I like hitting different locations and tracking heat, but I can do without counting hexes.  I also feel that combat from Alpha Strike can be applied, but I just can't find that happy medium.

[I am Belch II]

So more like a Aerotech/Alpha strike range rules. Intresting, might be useful and easier.

[Dr. Banzai]

Before you go too far, a reminder that BattleTech is one of a rare few that has not had to release 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th Edition to their rules in the last 30 years. I'd say that means the rules are pretty worth keeping as-is.

[Fear Factory]

Before you go too far, a reminder that BattleTech is one of a rare few that has not had to release 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th Edition to their rules in the last 30 years. I'd say that means the rules are pretty worth keeping as-is.

I know, but recently I am seeing this as a problem.  The rules have not adapted to changing times and the game suffers from bloat.

I love my game but a lot of my friends hate it because of how slow it is.

[Daryk]

Speed of play is entirely a proficiency problem.

[Vition2]

And a barrier to play is the level of proficiency required for timely games.  I'm not saying you're wrong, but if someone is trying to get people into the game, them needing a certain level of proficiency before actually starting to play the game in order for it to finish in a timely manner will keep people from actually trying it out.

As for what I've seen in this thread so far, the biggest hit for me is wanting to keep the base rules to a hex-based system, I would prefer simply being able to use inches - or for not Americans, 2 cm per movement point.  Remove the movement point turning penalty to movement and make it easy.

[nckestrel]

So - a board game?  Cards for Mechs, tanks, infantry?  Cards for missions?  It isn't a bad idea - have you spoken to the other beamers about it?  Because I'm looking at this and reminding myself what happened to the card game.

Oh, and is that your name?  BattleTech: Mercenaries by Joshua Franklin?  Can I keep it and list it in the fan projects thread?   

Not yet. It’s still too rough of a draft. 

[Fear Factory]

Speed of play is entirely a proficiency problem.

And a barrier to play is the level of proficiency required for timely games.  I'm not saying you're wrong, but if someone is trying to get people into the game, them needing a certain level of proficiency before actually starting to play the game in order for it to finish in a timely manner will keep people from actually trying it out.

You beat me to it.  Back then, this wasn't a big deal, it was a different time.

I don't think the players that get into the game are too worried with things like tracking heat and marking damage off of locations...  I actually miss it when I play Alpha Strike.  Most of the complaints I see have to do with how complex movement is and how wonky weapon ranges are, which also contributes to how slow the movement phase can be.  A lot of the complexity seems complex for the sake of being complex, if that makes any sense.

[NeonKnight]

You beat me to it.  Back then, this wasn't a big deal, it was a different time.

I don't think the players that get into the game are too worried with things like tracking heat and marking damage off of locations...  I actually miss it when I play Alpha Strike.  Most of the complaints I see have to do with how complex movement is and how wonky weapon ranges are, which also contributes to how slow the movement phase can be.  A lot of the complexity seems complex for the sake of being complex, if that makes any sense.

Yeah I like the heat, and damage tracking, and most players I know have no issues.

But really try movement as straight up Alpha Strike style movement. Just pay for hexes moved and modifiers, and don't worry about turning/facing etc until the final hex. You will be amazed at how much faster a game is played. I cannot think of any other popular boardgame/table top (single unit) style game where I need to pay to turn to my left or right.

[cpip]

I don't think the players that get into the game are too worried with things like tracking heat and marking damage off of locations...  I actually miss it when I play Alpha Strike.  Most of the complaints I see have to do with how complex movement is and how wonky weapon ranges are, which also contributes to how slow the movement phase can be.  A lot of the complexity seems complex for the sake of being complex, if that makes any sense.

I'd have to agree, which is why Alpha Strike resonated with me so much. I literally haven't played a game of classic BattleTech in fifteen years, because it takes so much time. When I can play a game of Alpha Strike on a work evening, or spend an entire day on the weekend playing BattleTech -- I know which one I'm choosing.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Yeah I like the heat, and damage tracking, and most players I know have no issues.

But really try movement as straight up Alpha Strike style movement. Just pay for hexes moved and modifiers, and don't worry about turning/facing etc until the final hex. You will be amazed at how much faster a game is played. I cannot think of any other popular boardgame/table top (single unit) style game where I need to pay to turn to my left or right.

Dispensing with a discrete Attack Declaration phase will also dramatically speed up CBT/Boardgame Battletech.  Just roll to hit along with declaring this weapon or that one, and use knowledge of whether that attack hit or not before you declare the next weapon... stuff dies much much faster.

[NeonKnight]

Dispensing with a discrete Attack Declaration phase will also dramatically speed up CBT/Boardgame Battletech.  Just roll to hit along with declaring this weapon or that one, and use knowledge of whether that attack hit or not before you declare the next weapon... stuff dies much much faster.

yes we do this in our games too.

Sooooooo much faster.

And always funny for the Much that was killed that round but hadn't fired yet to get the little voiceover:

"Mechwarrior Joey Begood, sensing his time was up, decides, DAMN THE HEAT! fire ALL THE WEAPONS!

Unrealistic...sure, but then, this is a game of Giant Stompy Robots!

[Fear Factory]

Dispensing with a discrete Attack Declaration phase will also dramatically speed up CBT/Boardgame Battletech.  Just roll to hit along with declaring this weapon or that one, and use knowledge of whether that attack hit or not before you declare the next weapon... stuff dies much much faster.

yes we do this in our games too.

Sooooooo much faster.

And always funny for the Much that was killed that round but hadn't fired yet to get the little voiceover:

"Mechwarrior Joey Begood, sensing his time was up, decides, DAMN THE HEAT! fire ALL THE WEAPONS!

Unrealistic...sure, but then, this is a game of Giant Stompy Robots!

I don't know why, but I'm not following you here...  how exactly does this work?   :-[

[Dr. Banzai]

Are you using EVERY option in the game to play? If you go back to just the basics (Total Warfare), it runs PDQ.

[Fear Factory]

Moving outside of Introtech, here's how I would handle Star League/Clan Pulse Lasers:

Code: [Select]

Pulse Lasers Range

IS
Small Pulse Laser 3/-/-
Medium Pulse Laser 3/6/-
Large Pulse Laser 3/10/-

Clan
Small Pulse Laser 3/6/-
Medium Pulse Laser 3/12/-
Large Pulse Laser 3/15/20

Pulse Lasers:  They're slightly more accurate and get bonus' similar to autocannons.  -1 to hit modifier, and they get a +1 bonus on critical hits.  Like lasers, they don't get the +1 PSR bonus for causing over 20 damage.

So instead of just getting a -2 to hit (which IMO, is a bit much) they are still accurate but they have different bonus' that make them appealing.

[NeonKnight]

I don't know why, but I'm not following you here...  how exactly does this work?   :-[

With current 'official' rules, as per page 98 of TOTAL WARFARE:

As described in Playing the Game (see p. 36), all attacks are declared before any are resolved. Only weapon attacks declared during weapon attack declaration are resolved in the Weapon Attack Phase. Likewise, only physical attacks declared during physical attack declaration are resolved in the Physical Attack Phase (except Charging and Death From Above, which are declared during the Movement Phase).

All declared attacks must be resolved, even if the intended target is destroyed before all attacks against it have been made (though an attack may be aborted if the Modified To-Hit Number is greater than 12; see Modified To-Hit Number, p. 42). Likewise, attacks not declared cannot be made, even if the opportunity presents itself during play.

and for completeness, page 36 (Actually page 37 is where they talk about declaring attacks):

The team that lost Initiative chooses a unit (ground or aerospace) to declare fire first. If this team has more units than the team that won Initiative, the players may need to declare attacks for more than one unit as described in Unequal Numbers of Units, p. 39. The player controlling the firing unit declares whether it will twist its torso or flip its arms or turn its turret, and in which direction. He must declare any attacks he plans to make using his unit’s weapons—or the type of attack in the case of aerospace units—specifying which weapons he will fire and at what target(s). If a weapon uses special ammo loads, such as LB-X cluster munitions, or can make special types of attacks, such as double-firing an Ultra autocannon, or can produce any other unusual effects, the player must declare those effects at this time.

The team that won Initiative then chooses a unit (ground or aerospace) to declare fire. If this team has more units than the team that lost Initiative, the players may be required to declare attacks for more than one unit (see Unequal Numbers of Units). The player controlling the firing unit declares any torso or turret twists and attacks he plans to make using that unit’s weapons, as described above.

The act of declaring attacks alternates between players until all fire has been declared. Each time a player must declare an attack, he may do so for any unit that has not been destroyed, even if the declaration is to make no attack.

This takes an extreme amount of time to declare if using more than a couple of units per side.

Now compare with ALPHA STRIKE (page 34 under COMBAT PHASE):

To make an attack, the controlling player declares which unit is attacking, what the target of its attack will be, the nature of the attack (weapon, physical, or aerospace), and—if applicable—how much of his unit’s Overheat Value the attack will use (see Overheating, p. 44). The player then resolves combat for that unit, applies any damage to the target, and then moves on to another available unit to repeat the process until all of his units have made their attacks. If the player wishes a unit not to make an attack, or if a unit is unable to make an attack for any reason, the player may pass for that turn.

Once a player has resolved (or skipped) combat actions for all of his units, the opposing player may then do so for all of his units.

simply moving to a Declare target and fire action, then move on to next speeds the game immensely, and yes, can result in a unit being destroyed before it has declared it's attack, leading to the "Hmm...guess I won't care about heat for this attack" mentality, and to me...that's fine. If I can get in 1 or two more rounds of combat in an evening, I can accept this loss of minutiae.

[Fear Factory]

Ahhhh ok.  So it's instantaneous instead of declaring then rolling.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Not damage being applied immediately, but there being all declarations before any rolls to hit vs declare-then-roll-then-declare-next-weapon.

The attack declaration phase only serves to make weapons fire more inefficient, which in turn prolongs games.  Currently in CBT/Boardgame BattleTech, you don't know if the Gauss is going to headcap or if a crit-seeker is going to hit an ammo explosion until after all attacks have been declared.  Once such a result has been resolved, any other attacks declared on that same target are wasted firepower which could have instead gone towards getting some other target(s) closer to dead.  If a discrete Attack Declaration phase didn't exist, that is.

[NeonKnight]

Yes, in our home game (be they ALPHA STRIKE or TOTAL WARFARE) we go with the following for attack phase:

TODD declares Mech A fires at Mech 3, rolls his attacks, and applies all damage.

DUNCAN declares Mech C will attack Mech 3, rolls all attacks, applies all damage, gets a Head Shot, and destroys Mech 3.

DAN declares Mech B will then attack Mech 2 (Mech 3 was the better shot but now dead, so takes the crappier target), rolls and applies all damage.

For Myself, I then say, Hmmm...Well, Mech 2 is dead this turn, so he will attack Mech A with everything (which on a normal round would have put it to 23 heat, but...he's dying Jim!), roll attack, applies damage, get 2 engine crits, which puts mech a at now +10 heat.

Again, this method puts more Omniscient Knowledge into the pilots, but it also stops a lot of "Oh...I was attacking that guy, but now he's dead, guess I need a new target next round." thumb twiddling.

[Iceweb]

You know reading the thread it looks like a good house rule would be that when a mech (or any unit but mechs are special) is killed it's computers detect destruction and automatically fire any unfired weapons that were ready at the beginning of the phase.   

That way it evens out if mech A fires at mech B killing it and B says screw the heat fire everything and head caps A, then A gets the same chance to fire off all it's remaining weapons, even though it had already made a fire declaration earlier in the phase. 
It could even set of funny chains where mechs blow each other up setting off revenge strikes. 

[TerrasFallen]

I have a house rule that has saved a lot of time on the cluster rolls. Starts out the same as regular with a cluster table roll. At the hit location phase you check your range and if you are at long you roll it in the scattered damage per missile/LBX (ex. 1 dmg per LRM, 2 dmg per SRM) mode, but if you are short or medium it changes. At short range you roll 2D6 for the hit location then apply approximately 50% (ex. if you do 15 dmg then 7 would go to hit location so the remaining 8 could be evenly split) of the damage to the location rolled and 25% to each location outward from the hit. If you hit a limb 25% of the damage whiffs it and disappears. At medium range it is the same thing but you split the damage between two 2D6 location rolls. We also have different hit chart that changes the income damage to make more sense but im not sure if that is something you are looking for.