Author Topic: Demolition Attempts on the Fly - Simplified Building damage made Simpler  (Read 2220 times)

Daemion

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So, a few years back, shortly after the release of Total Warfare and my disappointment with where they were going with Tournament Rules and Simplification,

I came up with a means of demolishing buildings that didn't bother with point tracking. I always liked how the BMR handled clearing woods. Each hit got a 'clearing attempt' where you rolled equal to or less than the strength of the weapon that hit the woods. Success dropped the woods by a class.

Simple. Effective. Logical in a lot of ways. Yes, even an SRM or MG could mow down trees on a 12, eventually.

Buildings, too, had different classes. And it made sense to work a building down through the different classes as it took damage. It wouldn't be able to provide as much cover for infantry the more holes got punched into the walls and infrastructure.


Originally, I wanted CF, minus occupation weight of units on a level to have an effect on a weapon's strength. But, that required a prior knowledge of what you wanted each building to be.

Tonight, we had some defense turrets in a game that was emulating a level of MechWarrior 4: Vengeance. We didn't have forehand knowledge of what we wanted the turrets to be, CF-wise. And, no Mechs or other units would be entering these buildings. They were obstacles.

On the fly, instead of focusing on CF, I focused on class. 

New Simpler Demolition Attempt Rules
Each building class acts as a divisor to a weapon's strength when determining the target value to make a Demolition ('clearing') Attempt. When applying the divisor, round damage down to the nearest whole number.

Light = 1
Medium = 2
Heavy = 3
Hardened = 4

Roll 2d6, after a successful attack against a building. The target value is equal or less than the Weapon's strength, divided by the Building's current Class Level.

A success reduces the building by one class level: Hardened to Heavy, Heavy to Medium, Medium to Light, Light to Rubble.

Example: A PPC that normally does 10 damage would have an easy time of knocking a light building with a 10 or less. But, where most other weapons would not be able to really harm a hardened building, it still has a chance with rolling snake-eyes on the Demolition Attempt. (10/4 = 2.5, rounded down to 2.)




Units can still do Focused Demolition Attempts. A player declares such an attempt during the weapon or physical attack phase, rolls to-hit for each weapon, then adds the damage together before it's been modified by the Class divisor.

Example: A single Machine Gun won't really open up an appreciable hole in reinforced ferrocrete walls of a hardened bunker inside 10 seconds, let alone the 2-second burst it normally gets before reload cycling starts. However, 4 of them, say in an array, do stand a remote chance of blasting a significant hole in the wall with a final Attempt Target of 2 or less.



Now, remember, this is an on-the-fly building assignment idea I came up with. It has no reference to load-bearing capacity, because this is for buildings that are merely obstacles. Although a simplified way of handling it is to add the tonnage/10 of any occupying units on a target level to the weapon's strength before applying the divisor.

However, I've always been of the opinion that load capacity should have nothing to do with how quickly a building can come down. Just look at all those glass buildings in a city and tell me they really are 'heavy' or 'hardened' regarding people protection or how easy it is to knock them down. Simply targeting the right support beam will topple the building in a messy way pretty handily.

Load bearing really does require some forethought before the game.

Thoughts?
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Alsadius

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I like your idea, but the weight probably doesn't need to be included in the damage roll. How about you just set a weight limit for each building class(e.g., 20 tons for Light, 50 for Medium, 80 for Heavy, 150 for Hardened), and if the weight is exceeded, the mech suffers falling damage as normal, and the building loses one structure level.

Let's say I'm running a Highlander around, and I see a nice hardened building I want to perch on. I jump on top, and because I'm only 90 tons on a 150-ton limit, I'm okay. Unfortunately, I couldn't see the Demolisher hiding behind the building. So it gets a look of glee in its eyes, and unloads a pair of AC/20s at the building. 40 damage on a demolition attempt divided by 4 means it reduces it on a 10-, and it rolls a 7, so the building drops from Hardened to Heavy. Now it can only handle 80 tons, and the Highlander is too heavy for it. As such, the building suffers a further collapse, dropping again to Medium, and the Highlander gets some nasty falling damage.

To throw some of the other existing rules in, a non-infantry unit entering a building rolls demolition as if it was doing tonnage/5 damage (and perhaps suffers equal damage?). A unit inside a building gets the usual partial cover modifier, but if the roll fails due to the partial cover mod, then it's treated as a demolition attempt instead.

Seems to be much simpler than the existing rules, while preserving all the interesting parts of the gameplay.

(You may even want to add more levels of hardening beyond the four in standard BT - a true bunker wouldn't really exist in this model, but if a building can go to, say, class 10 then it can act as a useful fortress. Any roll that has a success number of 13+ does one reduction automatically, and has a chance at a second reduction by rolling the same number minus 12 - for example, if a Demolisher unloads on a Medium building, the roll needs 20-, which means reduction from medium to light is automatic and an 8- will reduce it a second time, all the way to rubble)
« Last Edit: 11 December 2017, 15:09:16 by Alsadius »

Daemion

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I like your idea, but the weight probably doesn't need to be included in the damage roll. How about you just set a weight limit for each building class(e.g., 20 tons for Light, 50 for Medium, 80 for Heavy, 150 for Hardened), and if the weight is exceeded, the mech suffers falling damage as normal, and the building loses one structure level.

As I said above, I don't actually see load-capacity having anything to do with how much punishment it can take. Again, I point you to any large city high-rise. All that glass. Those can be taken down pretty easy, but each floor can hold a lot of mass.

Always had issues with that.

But, don't let me stop you from using the stock CFs already listed for each building class in the rules. 15 for light 40 for medium, something like 90 for heavy and 150 for hardened. (I'm working from memory here.)

Your other ideas pretty much work as I see it. And, artillery and other splash ordinance will still get the damage increase for anything with multiple levels.

« Last Edit: 11 December 2017, 21:50:41 by Daemion »
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Every thought and device conceived by Satan and man must be explored and found wanting. - Donald Grey Barnhouse on the purpose of history and time.

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Hptm. Streiger

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I'm not so sure if I should answer.... but you asked... now live with it:
Intro
I think as usually we more references of weapon fire vs buildings. I have a memory about a 12.7x108mm fired at a brick wall. After some rounds some bricks were pulverized and some gaping holes in the wall. I would consider this as a light building. (Don't k
But a DShK or M2 is a semi-portable MachineGun in BT terms at best.... so lets multiple the same effect with some increased firing rate for a MechMachine Gun.
Ok running the math with 12.7x108mm - a BT Machine Gun with the same caliber would fire 35 rounds per shot - in a very compressed burst.
To demolish a building even a light one (or is a brick wall a medium one) - you will need several bursts. On the other hand the same bursts will kill everybody in that house for sure.
This is maybe also the issue with Light Buildings - those categories are for "protection" and should not reflect the thoughness vs a demolition attempt.
Take the glass and steel building... those windows will not stop light weapons that will turn a floor into a slaughterhouse. But the structure will survive this punishment.

Ok with some "videos" from Syria I might add that ACs or artillery sized shells are not that good in demolishing buildings either. They poke nice holes in the outer walls, but thats it. I know we all have some pictures in our heads - colapsing buildings in WW2. But most were already burned out shells, and others withstood every attempt to destroy them (a hardened building example - are those steel concrete bunkers you can find almost everywhere in Germany - in my home village the Russians put as much explosive they could find in the interior. Put Concrete at the outside and blew the thing up - or at least this was their plan. The outside did crack and some buildings in the surroundings were shattered by the "earthquake" but that was it. The bunker is still standing.  ;)

Math

So lets call it "mission kill" instead of demolition?
Your formula is sound, so lets say, a successful role will reduce the available protection for a floor and tile by 1 class.

Add - a standard protection instead of tracking exact values
  • light - 10
  • medium - 30
  • heavy - 70
  • hardened 120

Medium 3 story building on 2 tiles. Squad of BA fires from cover of second floor in one tile. A Valiant stops - turns and fire its 3 Medium Lasers at  the target. All shots hit the building in this floor. Medium is 2. cumulative damage is 15. 15/2 = 7. Rolls 5 Successful - this floor only offers the protection of a light building.
Each attack is reduced by 3 points = so you have a grouping of 5 and a grouping of 1 damage to apply.
If the BA does not move - the next volley will inflict 12 instead of 6 damage. The third will deal the full 15 damage.


you might use the option that each floor and tile need to be turned to rumble to destroy a building. (might be simpler to just shoot the gun on a turreted bunker)
maybe you should be able to "hop" over classes by multiple the "start" value"
instead of a Valiant its a Komodo. Goes full rainbow all 10 Laser. Cumulative Damage 50. 50/2 = 25 Auto; 50/4 =12 Auto; 50/8 = 6. When rolling 6 or less the story is turned to rumble.
The protection is based on the average of those CFs. So (if roll of 6 is successful) - (3+1+0)/3 ~ 1 if not successful (3+1)/2 ~2

I know you wanted a simplified system - and this would include even more math... but at least "it feels good"



Alsadius

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As I said above, I don't actually see load-capacity having anything to do with how much punishment it can take. Again, I point you to any large city high-rise. All that glass. Those can be taken down pretty easy, but each floor can hold a lot of mass.

I disagree with you. The glass isn't structural. You could take out the superficial parts of the structure pretty easily, but the ability to carry a load is embedded in the steel columns, and those are much sturdier. Look at 9/11 - a freaking jetliner hit a high-rise, with kinetic energy probably thousands of times as much as any BT weapon, and it still stood until it was gutted by fire.

That said, a glass-and-steel building probably couldn't be used as armour the way BT allows, so that part is fairly unrealistic.

Daemion

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I disagree with you. The glass isn't structural. You could take out the superficial parts of the structure pretty easily, but the ability to carry a load is embedded in the steel columns, and those are much sturdier. Look at 9/11 - a freaking jetliner hit a high-rise, with kinetic energy probably thousands of times as much as any BT weapon, and it still stood until it was gutted by fire.

That said, a glass-and-steel building probably couldn't be used as armour the way BT allows, so that part is fairly unrealistic.

You are very much correct. However, those steel beams can be picked out pretty easy with advanced 25th+ century sensors, and a few heat rays will cut right through them with ease. They don't have the same protection that you'd get with something that's got a thick concrete outer skin. My mind goes back to the Man of Steel, and I can imagine even a small laser sweeping through a portion of a Metropolis building very much like Cryptonian heat vision. Those buildings fell sideways, and not the clean demo-drops we see when explosives are properly placed.

But, I really agree more with your latter assessment - the idea of a certain amount of protection for units on the inside being the same across all buildings of a type is erroneous.

I can imagine a tiny, hardened bunker that doesn't take up a full hex, or have full proper elevations, including basement being able to support the same 100 ton Atlas as the heavy-duty high-rise that has steel supports holding up reinforced concrete floors. But, the glass that encloses those floors from the weather, let alone the drywall and mere wooden wall-frames that divide up the interior of that building provide next to no protection compared to the super-thick reinforced ferrocrete wall surrounding what amounts to a small room with some firing slits.


To do this proper, I guess there would have to be a distinction made between knocking out the walls or trying to take the building down. Some of the old stone buildings, the walls are the structure. Churches and buildings on downtown main street in po-dunk small town don't have any real internal support except for a couple pillars, maybe. A lot of wooden houses are the same way. But, some of the more modern buildings, especially high-rises, are built on a framework, an internal structure.

Like BT buildings in standard rules, I guess there will have to be a secondary value which determines Protection Rating.

It will be in the same values as used for the Building Class, but is not necessarily required to match.

So, you could have Hardened Class buildings with Light Protection, or even Light Class buildings with Hardened Protection.

The Building Class determines how many Demolition Attempts are required to knock it down, and is a quick indicator of what kind of weight it can support per level. A Demolition Attempt remains being an act of trying to knock out support structures to send the building crumbling to the ground.

Let's just use Building Class as an indicator of what weigh classes it can support, topping off at the highest tonnage. So:
Light = 35 tons
Medium = 55
Heavy = 75
Hardened = 100

Aside: This means, however, that we've redefined the classes, and that most urban buildings, like houses, don't even rate placement on the map, although they take up a fair amount of space. Because, I can't even imagine my cinderblock house holding up a 2 ton car on its roof, let alone a 14 ton semi or a 20 ton Wasp standing on both feet.

Something like that needs a new terrain type or treat it as rough/rubble for cover and MP purposes. They simply aren't an obstacle.

Protection Rating determines what kind of divisor is applied to weapons attacks against units inside the building. The PR can potentially be reduced with each attack against units inside being resolved like a Demolition Attempt in addition to the damage inflicted on the target unit. Hit or miss on the targeted unit, like accidental fires, the attempt is tracked and rolled if there's a chance for success.

Example: A Wasp is trying to fire at a squad of infantry in a bunker, firing its machine-guns through the slits. It fails both rolls, being at long range and having moved to be a difficult target for the grunts. The bunker is only a medium class building, but it's got hardened protection, so both machine guns don't even have a chance to put real holes in the cover, so the Wasp's controller ignores each attack for potentially knocking down the cover rating by one level.

Protection Rating damage only effects the level being attacked, and it won't knock the building down if the PR drops below light. In fact, it probably shouldn't go below light.

An attacker may also declare a concerted effort to simply reduce a level's protection rating with weapon attacks. Any non-armored units will still take damage in the reduced manner, simply to reflect the way weapons will be hosed across the wall and plenty of firepower spilling through. Armored units won't be effected, because it's not a concerted attack trying to defeat their armor.

Combined attacks against a level's PR can be declared, much like the standard Demolition Attempt.

Versus Protection Rating only, Phyiscal attacks do double damage.

PR is reduced by one level when the building class is reduced by one level from a successful demolition attempt.

Now with that last thought, you could have fun with rubble hexes still having some damage protection even though the building itself is 'hollowed out'. I'm leaving this as an advanced option.

I've never been keen on how Anti-Infantry damage is worked under the standard rules, so I'm thinking that AnPers weapons get to roll their Anti-Infantry damage before having it modified by Protection Rating.

But, this would still be far simpler than HP Tracking. You have 2 stats to keep track of, and both can be done on a hand with four fingers if you needed. Tokens could be dropped on buildings to track damage level.

If you wanted to be very realistic, you could have the Protection Rating apply to individual hex faces, if you wished.






 

It's your world. You can do anything you want in it. - Bob Ross

Every thought and device conceived by Satan and man must be explored and found wanting. - Donald Grey Barnhouse on the purpose of history and time.

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Alsadius

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I think it'd be easier to just have a building give a constant protection rating until it's destroyed, perhaps light = 25% of damage aimed at units inside goes to the building instead, medium = 50%, heavy = 75%, hardened = 90%(or, alternately, have classes 1-5, where if you roll that number or less on 1d6, the damage hits the building instead of the unit - works well with BT dice, and it's easy to both remember and resolve). Then let it support 20 tons per building class, and allow the class to go up as high as you like - a landing platform for small craft might be class 25(=500 tons), for example.

Also, a suburban roof can support more weight than you think. You can easily get 2-3 feet of snow on a roof without any risk of collapse, a house might have a footprint of 1000 square feet, and snow weighs about 15 pounds per cubic foot. That's north of 20 tons of weight it can support. (Now, the weight is much more widely distributed when you're discussing snow load, and it doesn't drop on top all at once, but I think 20 tons of load-bearing is close enough for gaming purposes, so a regular home would be a 2-story class 1 light building)

 

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