Author Topic: Carrier Warships--what do you consider vital?  (Read 7237 times)

Korzon77

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Carrier Warships--what do you consider vital?
« on: 14 January 2018, 06:10:44 »
When designing a Carrier, what do you consider vital? What design aspects would you put in. Note, we're going to assume that while not strictly defined, we're not working with an unlimited budget so "put everything on the 2.4mton hull" isn't a likely desighn that's going to win.

For general challenge, let's assume three different levels.

1. Patrol/picket carrier. An "economy of force" ship that can show the flag, support troops or be the centerpiece of a small invasion, and is affordable enough that you can buy a lot of them.

2. STrike carrier.  Something designed to fly with cruisers, perhaps as a flagship of a flotilla or squadron, with enough fighter/small craft/dropshps to project power, and enough direct firepower and armor that it won't evaporate if it gets caught by  a destroyer.

3. Fleet carrier.  the big bruiser. Battleship sized, with heavy armor and weapons. You bring this along when you're expecting serious trouble,and it always travels as part of a fleet.

marauder648

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Re: Carrier Warships--what do you consider vital?
« Reply #1 on: 14 January 2018, 08:23:12 »
My big 'problem' is that carrier dropships, I see them as basically a stopgap, the equivalent of a CVE, even the big one like the vengance. 

Now lets assume that this is in the Star League era so resources and construction sites are not going to be an issue. 

Carrier-dropships are useful but are no filler for a true carrier.  A Warship that has a Carrier attached can't really add more than one unless its a seriously large vessel like a battleship.  This is because the Carrier would be a logistical drain on its mothership, a literal parasite.  You'd have to bunk the ships crew, its aerospace group up, as well as carry fuel for it, its fighters and the munitions, crated fighters etc.  The cargo space isn't a problem as most SL era ships had absurd amounts of cargo space, but if this is on a House warship from the 3060's onwards, where most have a serious lack of cargo, this then becomes a massive problem.

Other problems I see being the Carrier dropship itself being vulnerable to damage, if its destroyed, do you then abandon its fighter group if you have no room in your hangars? 
With the unbalanced and insane fleet structure of the SLDF there's other issues too, but we know they built and used carriers.  The fluff about the Sarmakand class says that the SLDF used that class and built them for their own use.

These would form what you would class as a Strike carrier, they are armed enough to defend themselves but their main armament is most definately the 72 fighters carried aboard.  With an escorting group's fighters, a swarm like that could probably cause serious issues or establish aerospace dominance.  The Sarmakand II would be a good starting point as a strike carrier.  Only changes i'd make is to beef up her tonnage (the Sarmakand is AMAZINGLY light at 350k tons), make her a 400k ship and put that into protection and additional firepower or engines to let her act with a cruiser squadron.  Or give her 48 fighters each

you could probably use a version of the Vincent to turn her into a carrier, give her 36 fighters and you've got a good picket/patrol ship that's built on the same hull as the SLDF's equivalent of a coastguard cutter.  A Vincent CVL could run along with other Vincent, acting as the flotilla command ship whilst providing some much needed offensive punch to a group of Vincents.  Then again the vincent needs work, she's outgunned by the ships she replaced, has a HUGE cargo space, is practically unarmed and unarmoured yet somehow weighs that bloody much.  Anyhow! I digress

Get a Vinny, rip out some of that absurd cargo space, give her 24 - 36 fighters.  Remove the pointless large lasers, add some AMS and a bit more armour and leave it at that. Cheap, cheerful and simple.

For a big fleet carrier I point to something like the Ark Royal class;

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=55443.msg1275069#msg1275069

 http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=55443.msg1285442#msg1285442 



As being ideal, yes she's a big lass at 1.4mt but she also brings 216 fighters to the party, far more than her nearest rival the New Syrtis class with its 120 and more than enough to estabilish total aerospace dominance over all but a Member States capital world.  She's also heavily protected and can defend herself against a Warship if needed, but she'd be at the centre of a fleet or hidden behind the Battleships, operating in a command and control role.

Of course these would be rare ships, probably no more than one per major fleet group.  But the Strike carriers would be far more common, Even better if you can base the carrier on the common Sovietskii Soyuz class as the hull.

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pheonixstorm

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Re: Carrier Warships--what do you consider vital?
« Reply #2 on: 14 January 2018, 09:06:11 »
Vital?

Heavy point defense
Decent speed
DRONES. Especially for SLDF. Drones dont need food or air so overall you *might* be able to use more for less. Add in an ARTS for the bays for even fewer crew needs.
Heavy anti-fighter weaponry.

Patrol and strike carriers could probably both benefit from having mostly energy weapons with the strike carrier benefiting heavily from a LF battery

As fro how much it should carry.

Patrol - 12 ASF 2 SC
Strike - 36 ASF 6 SC 2 DS
Fleet - 3-6 air regiments, 1 wing SC, and 2-4 DS

If the budget could afford it and it was SLDF an ATAC would be nice for the fleet carrier.

Ruger

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Re: Carrier Warships--what do you consider vital?
« Reply #3 on: 14 January 2018, 09:25:49 »
Fuel and munitions capacity...having a carrier is no good if you don't have enough fuel and munitions to supply your planes for enough sorties to last your mission...

Follow that with defensive firepower and armor to protect your ship for most enemies...

Also, speed to keep up with the rest of your fleet, or to outrun your opposition...

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Colt Ward

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Re: Carrier Warships--what do you consider vital?
« Reply #4 on: 14 January 2018, 14:22:11 »
Problem is . . . the reason you had pure carriers for naval warfare does not apply to BT- there is not a single surface that is either a landing strip or weapon mount/systems.  So IMO BT carriers would resemble something like the Kiev (not discussing its actual effectiveness)- support for air operations but no reason not to stick on some long ranged weapons.

Which leaves you with the last primary characteristic of carriers . . . they are not supposed to get in shooting range of anyone else's ships.  But again, this (depending on ruleset) is more difficult in BT than IRL since ships can go as fast as fighters.  Part of the reason they were not supposed to go in range of ships is they had lighter construction when initially proposed- armor was not as thick as on battleships nor positioned the same way.  By the ship avoiding damage it let them use disposable craft to harrier the enemy- a fighter is cheaper and faster to build than a couple of hundred thousand tons of shipping.  But since carriers might end up in a ship to ship engagement, should they really be built 'lighter' than main combatants of their tonnage?

I think the defining characteristics, no matter the size, will be longer ranged capital weapons that can pull AA duty- NLs & Barracudas?- with a lack of heavier mid & short range weapons, good AA suite (SPL, AMS, MG), and above average speed for the size.  A properly designed carrier as someone else expressed will be able to operate for extended periods off internal stores like most SL era ships- 3060 era ships would be tied to their extremely pop-able cargo DS.  I would also suggest a single DS collar, mostly for cargo transfer purposes and the assigned DS being a tug which helps for SAR.
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Re: Carrier Warships--what do you consider vital?
« Reply #5 on: 14 January 2018, 17:43:11 »
I like having warships as active units in the game.

I know DropShip carriers are arguably more flexible and in-sense modular where they can dock with jumpship and be swapped out for something else for a mission.

I prefer warships, because it's a) Cool factor of being take stronger ship into a combat zone. 2) carry more supplies, and have fire power supplement fighter coverage and mech drops. 3) They maybe capital investment, but they provide intimidation factor when they show up.  Even when their rare.
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Kidd

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Re: Carrier Warships--what do you consider vital?
« Reply #6 on: 14 January 2018, 22:21:09 »
assume that while not strictly defined, we're not working with an unlimited budget so "put everything on the 2.4mton hull" isn't a likely desighn that's going to win.
IMHO you need to define the limitations better to get more relevant answers.

Also you need to define the scale of your question; its unclear if you mean a dropship or warship or both, and you'll get very different answers for each. Even a corvette-sized warship will be a capital ship for the purpose of most BT battles.
Quote
1. Patrol/picket carrier. An "economy of force" ship that can show the flag, support troops or be the centerpiece of a small invasion, and is affordable enough that you can buy a lot of them.
Leopard-CV dropship - carries enough ASFs to be a threat, small enough to be expendable. Not gonna be a "centerpiece" though. Needs more cargo space for longer campaign ops.

IMHO a Warship patrol carrier ought to carry 20 ASF cubicles. That's big enough to do most jobs well and independently. At least 1,000 tons of stores each for extended cruises - leaves one enough room to even pack spare airframes and pilots. A squadron of small craft is de rigeur for all Warships really. Dropships optional - keep the cost down. At most, a single Dropship for bulk orbital shuttle service.

Quote
2. STrike carrier.  Something designed to fly with cruisers, perhaps as a flagship of a flotilla or squadron, with enough fighter/small craft/dropshps to project power, and enough direct firepower and armor that it won't evaporate if it gets caught by a destroyer.
Something like a York-class would be my pick. 40 ASFs and 4 DSs (at least 2 of them attack) should be enough of a flotilla to hunt and kill enemy pickets.

Firepower and armour is really subjective in space BT. I'd dump the former for more of the latter personally - your firepower is your fighters.
Quote
3. Fleet carrier.  the big bruiser. Battleship sized, with heavy armor and weapons. You bring this along when you're expecting serious trouble,and it always travels as part of a fleet.
Leviathan, ha ha.

I think it'd take at least about 100 ASFs to kill the average BT fleet. 4 DSs, mainly as cargo mules, because at this level you use frigates as escorts. Minimum 200-point armour facings.

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Re: Carrier Warships--what do you consider vital?
« Reply #7 on: 16 January 2018, 05:55:28 »
The only feature that matters is cargo capacity. If you can't keep your ASF flying there is no point to them.


Next lables like picket, strike, and fleet are essentially meaningless. Start with metrics that identify what tasks you want your ASF to achieve.

6. A Squadron the standard ASF force that will accompany a battalion of Mechs. So 6 is a magic number to be able to carry that squadron or defeat it.

36. A Wing. The air support for a regiment. If you want to take a world guarded by a regiment you need to haul a wing.

70. Roughly how many ASF you need to kill an Aegis cruiser. This is basically a "fleet " level of ASF.


Numbers above this are essentially meaningless. For example to defeat a cruiser you need 70 + X ASF where X is the number of ASF carried by the cruiser and it's DropShips. It doesn't matter if it's a Thera or a Vincent. X is just the cost of doing business.

This is where the so called super carriers like the Leviathan or Thera annoy me. All those ASF just exist to slow down the game.

marauder648

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Re: Carrier Warships--what do you consider vital?
« Reply #8 on: 16 January 2018, 08:29:11 »
But looking at it from a lore PoV then the differences between the classes does make sense.

Imagine how much more potent a group of Vincents would be if one of then was a CVE assigned to the squadron, carrying say 24 fighters.  As Vincents operated in small squadrons of 2 - 4 ships you've got another 18 fighters from the other Vinney's.

Imagine a squadron of Cruisers again 4 - 6 strong (and as this is SLDF, lets go with their crappy workhorse, the Sov Soy) and now have one of those acting as a carrier with 48 or more fighters on board.

And in a large fleet despite a Mckenna or three's worth of fighters and all their escorts, a big fleet carrier would make it even harder for fighters to attack an SLDF formation.  Seeing as the SLDF was utterly allergic to point defence weapons, or AMS, then fighters are the only real way to defend against a hostile fighter strike, and you want to bring as many as you can to any party.

As i've said before, I KNOW I put too much of a wet navy emphasis on the SLDF's fleet but even then its fleet balance makes zero sense. 

The SLDF seems to take a strange approach with its fleet.  Its destroyers and corvettes are basically disposable, which makes sense for a society that is, if not quite post scarcity, is very much on the cusp of it.  The Hegemony most certinally was a post scarcity society. 
Their DDs and corvettes are very much patrol craft, they generally have cavernous amounts of cargo space and are very much cheap and cheerful units, even the massive Lola III is undergunned and under armoured for a ship her size and has a huge cargo capacity for long patrols (despite her not having a grav deck which would make those patrols uncomfortable).

The Congress is a rancid design, designed well after the Reunification war and when the SLDF had developed the long range firing protocols, its got an old style gun layout and not much firepower either (the Riga I outguns her) and don't get me started on the Soyuz.  The gall to call that thing a cruiser, she's a fat frigate. At best.

But the fleet is also weirdly balanced.

There's NO logistic support, there's no development of a big troopship and the Potemkin just emerged whole cloth, as did the Newgrange, there's no AA escorts, very few missile boats, (only one and that was deemed in the fluff to be a failure even though the Quixote was the best anti-fighter ship the SLDF had), there's no light cruisers save the Dart, and no carriers.  As a fully rounded fleet you'd expect them to have this, but you can't just go and point at a jumpship and say Thats your logistics support.

Yes it is.  In peace, you take a jumpship into battle and they are sitting ducks and would have been prime targets during the reunifcation war or something like it.  Carrier dropships are too small and too vulnerable and impose a logistics cost on the ship carrying them for any period of time. For single battles or patrolling a system they make sense, but you couldn't fit say 6 Titan's to a Monsoon without it either being a single deplyoment thing or for a very specific role. 

The SLDF fleet, and its ships need to be completely re-worked. Not only in the art department, its why I did my fan made product, but their weapons loadouts, their equipment (why do battleships have NO marines onboard :s ) and so on. 
« Last Edit: 16 January 2018, 08:47:16 by marauder648 »
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Re: Carrier Warships--what do you consider vital?
« Reply #9 on: 16 January 2018, 10:43:49 »
Problem with what you just said is that its arbitrary labels assigned to the ships rather than true classification, and I do mean arbitrary labels set out by TPTB.  For instance, the Kimagure is a pursuit cruiser while the Cameron is a battlecrusier- yet their charcteristics do not match lose labels.
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marauder648

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Re: Carrier Warships--what do you consider vital?
« Reply #10 on: 16 January 2018, 11:05:20 »
Its something that would have to be codified, really you could call the Kimagure a Battlecruiser, but you could explain her 'persuit-cruiser' name perhaps with lore. Lets say that at the time of their construction, there was a freeze on building large capital ships, so the Admiralty said "They are cruisers." and got funding approved for them.  Kind of like what Fisher did with the Courageous class, the Government said "No big ships."  So he just said that his 22,000 ton ships were 'large light cruisers'. The Government went "Okay." without bothering to check, and then Fisher got his three freaks :D
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Minemech

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Re: Carrier Warships--what do you consider vital?
« Reply #11 on: 16 January 2018, 11:06:24 »
The only feature that matters is cargo capacity. If you can't keep your ASF flying there is no point to them.


Next lables like picket, strike, and fleet are essentially meaningless. Start with metrics that identify what tasks you want your ASF to achieve.

6. A Squadron the standard ASF force that will accompany a battalion of Mechs. So 6 is a magic number to be able to carry that squadron or defeat it.

36. A Wing. The air support for a regiment. If you want to take a world guarded by a regiment you need to haul a wing.

70. Roughly how many ASF you need to kill an Aegis cruiser. This is basically a "fleet " level of ASF.


Numbers above this are essentially meaningless. For example to defeat a cruiser you need 70 + X ASF where X is the number of ASF carried by the cruiser and it's DropShips. It doesn't matter if it's a Thera or a Vincent. X is just the cost of doing business.

This is where the so called super carriers like the Leviathan or Thera annoy me. All those ASF just exist to slow down the game.
They are not meaningless. A certain number of fighters will be under repair and refit at a given time. Likewise, fighters like the Lancer perform roles such as fleet recon, but are less effective at tying down other fighters. Ships like the Thera are typically deployed to places where after one success, they could quickly find themselves attacked by another power. They need to establish supremacy, both in ground and space efforts (Possibly at the same time). Lastly, there seems to be propaganda value to the Thera group in League space. You are right that they greatly expand game length.

That said, I am glad the Gorgon was designed. It fills a much needed niche. It is a shame they were not available in the heyday of warships, but you can play pickup games with what you want. It is a neat dropship.

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Re: Carrier Warships--what do you consider vital?
« Reply #12 on: 16 January 2018, 11:24:44 »
Its something that would have to be codified, really you could call the Kimagure a Battlecruiser, but you could explain her 'persuit-cruiser' name perhaps with lore. Lets say that at the time of their construction, there was a freeze on building large capital ships, so the Admiralty said "They are cruisers." and got funding approved for them.  Kind of like what Fisher did with the Courageous class, the Government said "No big ships."  So he just said that his 22,000 ton ships were 'large light cruisers'. The Government went "Okay." without bothering to check, and then Fisher got his three freaks :D

I get that and absolutely agree for IC . . . but that is just fluff backstory justifying what creators did OOC.  The design of the warships has no system or classification system, the Feng Huang is a cruiser 140k heavier than the SovSoy to be the biggest 'cruiser' while the Cameron & Black Lion are smaller.  The 3067 and later rediscovered ships trying to fill gaps make the classification issue more muddled b/c they try to explain IC the growth of naval tech/fleets but its a still a mash up.
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Re: Carrier Warships--what do you consider vital?
« Reply #13 on: 16 January 2018, 15:44:03 »
They are not meaningless. A certain number of fighters will be under repair and refit at a given time. Likewise, fighters like the Lancer perform roles such as fleet recon, but are less effective at tying down other fighters. Ships like the Thera are typically deployed to places where after one success, they could quickly find themselves attacked by another power. They need to establish supremacy, both in ground and space efforts (Possibly at the same time). Lastly, there seems to be propaganda value to the Thera group in League space. You are right that they greatly expand game length.

That said, I am glad the Gorgon was designed. It fills a much needed niche. It is a shame they were not available in the heyday of warships, but you can play pickup games with what you want. It is a neat dropship.
What the heck is going to hit a Thera after a success?
All a There means is that the opforce needs to bring 300 ASF to defeat it. It just pushes up the number of ASF needed in theatre to a level Battletech lore does not support.

When people say let's put 36 Mechs on the board people panic. When people say 216 ASF people scream moar. There is a disconnect there which breaks the game.

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Re: Carrier Warships--what do you consider vital?
« Reply #14 on: 16 January 2018, 16:11:36 »
What the heck is going to hit a Thera after a success?
All a There means is that the opforce needs to bring 300 ASF to defeat it. It just pushes up the number of ASF needed in theatre to a level Battletech lore does not support.

When people say let's put 36 Mechs on the board people panic. When people say 216 ASF people scream moar. There is a disconnect there which breaks the game.
Fair enough.

Korzon77

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Re: Carrier Warships--what do you consider vital?
« Reply #15 on: 16 January 2018, 19:24:16 »

Numbers above this are essentially meaningless. For example to defeat a cruiser you need 70 + X ASF where X is the number of ASF carried by the cruiser and it's DropShips. It doesn't matter if it's a Thera or a Vincent. X is just the cost of doing business.

This is where the so called super carriers like the Leviathan or Thera annoy me. All those ASF just exist to slow down the game.

I'd say the problem is tht those supercarriers are appearing at the wrong time--It's entirely probable that during the Star League era, a heavily defended world or large fleet might need that sort of dedicated carrier support--but  not during the later eras where the fluff tells us that even regiments often have to go short of fighter support IE, even the league shouljd be flying either Thera's with empty bays, or shorting *everyone* else to load them up.

That being said, now that I thihnk about it, really, there's not much reason to have dedicated carriers for general fleet actions, because a McKenna, say, could add another 60 fighters without payint much of a penalty at all (we can argue if this is a flaw or benefit of the design system).

The two best carriers, IMO, are teh Samarkand and New Syrtis. Why?

In the Samarkand's case, it's a well designed economy of force ship. I'd pull the NAC's, but even so, it's clearly a ship designed to hide behind its flight group, with enough dropship support to do a very good job of serving as the centerpiece of a squadron that most frigates and destroyers are going to have a very bad time with, and it's 4/6 speed gives it a better chance to avoid getting to medium range with some big bruiser tht will gut it.

The New Syrtis has a similar advantage--4/6 speed, a nice flight group and enough armor and weapons to handle an enemy cruiser, even while still being designed around its fighters.  But for 2/3 or 3/5 ships, there are more than enough hulls out there with abundant cargo space that could be converted to fairly powerful carriers.


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Re: Carrier Warships--what do you consider vital?
« Reply #16 on: 16 January 2018, 21:41:38 »
I'd say the problem is tht those supercarriers are appearing at the wrong time--It's entirely probable that during the Star League era, a heavily defended world or large fleet might need that sort of dedicated carrier support--but  not during the later eras where the fluff tells us that even regiments often have to go short of fighter support IE, even the league shouljd be flying either Thera's with empty bays, or shorting *everyone* else to load them up.
The Free Worlds League was famous for its aerospace industry. It is not unthinkable that the same Thomas Marik who had the most high tech mech force in the early 3050s had a much stronger aerospace arm than he let on. Particularly if the League refurbished and rebuilt frames thought useless.

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Re: Carrier Warships--what do you consider vital?
« Reply #17 on: 16 January 2018, 22:32:31 »
When people say let's put 36 Mechs on the board people panic. When people say 216 ASF people scream moar. There is a disconnect there which breaks the game.
;D

Guess it appeals too much to those of us who hanker for the Star Wars-esque space fighter swarm battles. Or armchair admirals who want to re-fight the Battle of Midway IN SPAAAACE  :D

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Re: Carrier Warships--what do you consider vital?
« Reply #18 on: 17 January 2018, 01:23:10 »
Exactly Kidd :D  Yes the huge number of fighters would make dolling out a carrier impractical to say the least, and I have no idea how you'd actually control that many craft, or how many trees would have ot be sacrificed for their sheets :p 

But from a visual point of view, and a lore/story point of view, i'd WANT to see hundreds of aerospace fighters going at it, with fleets of warships pounding away at one another. Sure i'd NEVER play it, but for story purposes, it works just fine.
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Re: Carrier Warships--what do you consider vital?
« Reply #19 on: 17 January 2018, 07:02:25 »
Doesn't Abstract Combat Rules, Stragetic Battleforce help little? It's meant to handle the scales that were practical in normal Battletech (dare i say Tactical level) game play isn't it?
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Re: Carrier Warships--what do you consider vital?
« Reply #20 on: 17 January 2018, 12:11:37 »
When people say let's put 36 Mechs on the board people panic. When people say 216 ASF people scream moar. There is a disconnect there which breaks the game.

At the scale of AT2r (Warships, Dropships, and ASF), ASF play the role of infantry on a BattleMech scale map.

So 216 ASF split into strength-4 fighter squadrons is roughly equal to 54 infantry squads on a tabletop game.  Yes it will be annoying to move them all around, but the scale of the weapons being tossed out means you need them in decent numbers in the right position.

ASF need to be done via squadron rules when playing with multiple Dropships, or a single Warship.  You'd have to make sure there are rules so fighters in a squadron are better for surviving and dealing damage than fighters by themselves.

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Re: Carrier Warships--what do you consider vital?
« Reply #21 on: 17 January 2018, 15:32:02 »
And then they wipe out the anemic Battlemech forces on the ground. 😋

snewsom2997

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Re: Carrier Warships--what do you consider vital?
« Reply #22 on: 26 January 2018, 13:19:07 »
I like the Sammarkand, 72 Fighters, 12 Small Craft. It moves good. I would toss a lot more Pulse lasers and LAMS on it for Anti ASF work. Use 4 PWS for the Dropships.

Absolutely Vital, Anti Air Defenses, Anti Missile Defenses, and enough space to keep your fighters fueled and equipped for a reasonable amount of time, LFB so you can jump out if you jump into a hornets nest. AS far as Armor, I personally like to cram as much as the structure will take. I would sacrifice Capital scale weapons, since I wouldn't want to be slugging it out wit Detsroyers and Cruisers, you just put your ASFs on them.

I would also think it would require a Jumpship for support to carry extra fuel tenders, and ammo carriers. Assuming you haven't specialized in Energy based ASFs.

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Re: Carrier Warships--what do you consider vital?
« Reply #23 on: 26 January 2018, 14:04:50 »
I always liked the Thera carrier. Its a carrier that brings a huge amount of fighters to the field. It also has enough firepower and the armor to defend its self if the battle comes to the ship. Looks the FWL put all their resources to making a ship like the Thera.
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Korzon77

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Re: Carrier Warships--what do you consider vital?
« Reply #24 on: 26 January 2018, 16:26:40 »
For me, I agree with the Samarkand. Especially since it really is a Carrier, not a heavy warship that carries some fighters. ILt's clearly designed to use its air wing as it's main striking and defensive arm, with its weapons secondary, and enough speed to in general, control the engagement range. Sure, it'll likely die if it ever comes in range of a heavy warship, but again, it's a carrier.

The New Syrtis is another example-- a fast carrier with a fair number of fighters, and in this case enough weapons to handle lighter ships and cruisers, sort of a pre-refit Lexington with the 8-inch cannon. 


Minemech

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Re: Carrier Warships--what do you consider vital?
« Reply #25 on: 26 January 2018, 19:45:40 »
 The Samarkand fits the profile of an escort carrier. In aerospace combat, it is less for supremacy, and more for tying down assets that could endanger your supremacy.

Korzon77

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Re: Carrier Warships--what do you consider vital?
« Reply #26 on: 27 January 2018, 01:20:03 »
It's also cheap enough that you can have enough to serve as escorts, or to team up-- a unit of say, three samarkands can punch far above their weight in tonnage terms.

Korzon77

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Re: Carrier Warships--what do you consider vital?
« Reply #27 on: 27 January 2018, 02:52:03 »
It's also cheap enough that you can have enough to serve as escorts, or to team up-- a unit of say, three samarkands can punch far above their weight in tonnage terms.

I'd like to add--the Smarkand is small enough that you could make it in shipyards sized for jumpships, and is a truly multi-purpose craft. It'd be a great frame to hang a series of 350K warship designs on, allowing you to have common jump/transit engine components.

Charistoph

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Re: Carrier Warships--what do you consider vital?
« Reply #28 on: 30 January 2018, 12:14:58 »
This is a very interesting discussion.

To put a little perspective on things, the WW2 Enterprise (CV-6) usually ran a complement of 90 aircraft, but that would have included the transport planes and scouts as well as dedicated fighters and attack planes.  The most current active ship to carry that name (CVN-65) carried anywhere from 60-90 aircraft, including helicopters and AWACS.  That one is to be replaced by CVN-80 (a Gerald R Ford class), which is supposed to carry up to 90 aircraft.

To be fair, ASFs are rather slow compared to our modern aircraft (very relatively speaking) when in comparison to their parent craft.  But in order to justify the same speed that fighters of even WW2 had over their parent craft, ASFs would be pulling HUGE amount of Gs that would regularly kill any pilot, with the slowest pulling about 4-5 times that of their parent ship.  This low speed limits the operational envelope in space operations away from their dropship or warship that they launch they from to near uselessness. 

It is only the lack of anti-ASF firepower on old Warships and Dropships that even give the ASFs a fighting chance in these engagements, and their economy of scale as well as flexibility in engagement envelope which allowed them to continue long past the last Warship was lost in the Succession Wars.
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