Vehicle of the Week: Vedette

[Isanova]

To be fair...

I could easily see the CGB Scientists updating the local manufacturing processes to their standards, letting them produce Vedette's with a ClanTech AC/5 (I think it's 1 ton less, 1 crit less) and otherwise standard armor/chassis/engine etc. Maybe switching the MG to a pair of clan Light-MG. Adding CASE would be cheap.

It's not hard to argue for a Vedette IIC build with clan technology with cheap production / conserve resources being the main idea. Otherwise re-tooling it for a different vehicle is the only thing I can imagine, phasing out the old stuff... but I like the clan low-tech Vedette idea better.

I don't know if Clanners would consider building a new SFE or Fuel Cell engine preferable to a ICE that requires expenditures for fuel.

[Colt Ward]

Don't sugar coat it tell us how you really feel.   O:-)

Seriously though, I would have to agree.  While it may be possible that they could refit Vedettes with Clan tech but I just cannot see them wanting too.  Except for the Hell Horses vehicles are units no khan is going to waste time upgrading unless it is convenient.  I'm sure the Ghost Bears have plenty of other things to concentrate their resources on.

Axel IIC . . .

The Bears have whole units of armor, BA and infantry called Phalanx . . .

And oh yeah, one of their ristars managed to win himself a bloodname . . . as a tanker.

[Diablo48]

Can they ?  I'm serious.  Think about it.  The entirety of clan society is based on a don't waste anything philosophy.  Only the Warrior Caste sees any extravagance.  Warriors themselves are less than a fraction of 1% of all people in the Homeworlds.  They have training that kills or disqualifies some 95%+ of all trainees.  The other castes are left to die w/o food/medicine as soon as they can no longer keep up their quota at their job.  Warriors fight over the privelage of piloting an Omnimech.  Garrison units are stuck using SLDF tech because they can't outfit everyone with even Standard Clan Tech Mechs, let alone Omnimechs.  And yet, they can mass produce Clan Tech all willynilly better than the IS can produce L1 Tanks ?   Really ?  That makes sense to you ?  That the Bears have mastered producing clan tech compared to the NAIS I can buy.  That they can crank out just as many Clan Versions of something compared to IS-L1/L2 Versions?  Nope, I don't buy that for even a second.  Something is holding them back or they would be sitting around with warehouses full of Timberwolves instead of making SFE anythings.  Yet we constantly see how limited production in the clans really is in the way they have to trial against each other for any production output they can get.  Yes, the Bears moved a few Million of their own people to the OZ and its likely that a few thousand of them are trained in Clan Tech Weapons Maintenance.  But compare that to the BILLIONS of people that live in the FRR/GBD.  Like I said above, I think its a good idea to keep some things totally IS tech based that can be easily maintained by units w/o any access to advanced training techniques.   But hey, opinions vary.

Ok, I had a big response typed up but I am not going to post it because this discussion has drifted off the subject of the Vedette.  All I am going to say is that you seriously need to go do some more research before you try to make claims about the Clans because this post is shot through with serious factual errors.

[Jim1701]

So?  The Axel is a creditable main battle tank.  The Vedette is popcorn.

[Diablo48]

So?  The Axel is a creditable main battle tank.  The Vedette is popcorn.

The Axel IIC is also a whole lot more expensive than the proposed Vidette upgrade thanks to the use of a fusion engine and Ferro-Fibrous armor.  We are not looking to make the Vidette a critical unit with this upgrade, we are looking to boost its performance by as much as we can with as little investment as possible.  Thus the bulk of the vehicle is left exactly like it was in 3025 with nothing but a quick weapon swap to improve the utility without driving the price tag through the roof like the Axel IIC did.

[Jim1701]

And yet the Ghost Bears have never bothered to upgrade the Veddette.  Hmmmm...

[Hellraiser]

Seriously though, I would have to agree.  While it may be possible that they could refit Vedettes with Clan tech but I just cannot see them wanting too.  Except for the Hell Horses vehicles are units no khan is going to waste time upgrading unless it is convenient.  I'm sure the Ghost Bears have plenty of other things to concentrate their resources on.   

Exactly.  And funny you mentioned the Horses, the largest users of Vehicles of any clan and their clusters are overflowing w/ SLDF tech tanks still.  If anyone was mass producing clan tech Vees in large #s you'd think it would be them.

[Colt Ward]

Couple problems with that . . .

Until recently the Horses did not get camera time.

Second, outside of a pair of Mars we get very little canon look at Horse armor in action.

Third, as the Horses are supposed to be masters at armor & infantry supporting mechs . . . you would think they did a little math and realized most of the common Clan eggshells- er armor, were weaker than the old SL-era tanks.

Fourth, if you look at what the Horses did build- Epona, Enyo, and Hephastus, you see somewhat niche designs.  The Epona was the hover Omni MBT (before TW rule change), one of three tanks closest to making that claim.  The Hephastus is an Omni IFV, designed to bring that infantry to the battle and give it some support either with weapons or electronics.  The Enyo . . . well, its niche is that it IS the BEST MBT out there . . . but its a high end model.  The Clans, and even the IS, had nothing like it.

So yeah . . . the Bears making a Vedette with a Clan LB-5X makes a lot of sense, especially since the same production line making the guns can also supply the guns to go into new mechs, or fill pods for the Bears remaining Omnis.  They certainly will not be putting IS AC/5s into Omnis or other new build Clan designs- even a Clan AC/5 following the established new/3050 rules.

[Hellraiser]

The Bears have whole units of armor, BA and infantry called Phalanx . . . 

Neg.

Phalanx Clusters contain Mechs, Infantry, & "a contingent of vehicles".
Likely a Trinary, but we don't know.

There are also a total of 5 of them out of 58 clusters in the touman.
Less than 10% of the clusters & likely 20-40% of each of those, so 2-3% probably,  which is a little different than 20ish% of every cluster like in the Horses.

[Hellraiser]

All I am going to say is that you seriously need to go do some more research before you try to make claims about the Clans because this post is shot through with serious factual errors.

I've been reading & playing since before the clans appeared in 1989 and own roughly 50% of every BT product and more than that of Clan products.  I'd say I'm pretty well read.

What my post does have is opinion & guesswork based on the way the universe is set & the fact that there is almost no info on true #'s of what is produced out of a clan factory.

You can say that the clans crank out massive #s of combat units at clan tech quality and that is your opinion.

But, the fact that the Bears have not even replaced their losses from the Dominion War let alone Operation Revival proves that false.  Look at the total # of mechs they field.  58 Clusters, at 45 Mechs each (Average/Standard).  This is less than 25 Regiments in IS scale.  And they lost a small portion of that in the Dominion War, and with 3 years they still hadn't replaced those losses and were using IS Tech mechs in their clusters.

I believe that Clan Tech produced by the Clans still doesn't get cranked out an IS numbers.
The FWL cranked out 240 Vulcans a year from 3050 onward.
The FS was producing 130 Valkyries a year back in 3025 from a factory that they couldn't repair.
They Bears can't replace a few clusters of losses in 3+ years.

But you have a good point, we've gotten entirely off track.

The Vedette is a cheap budget tank, its not very combat effective, even clan tech won't change that much.  I'd rather not stop production for retooling into a unit that still won't be much better.

[Colt Ward]

Neg.

Phalanx Clusters contain Mechs, Infantry, & "a contingent of vehicles".
Likely a Trinary, but we don't know.

There are also a total of 5 of them out of 58 clusters in the touman.
Less than 10% of the clusters & likely 20-40% of each of those, so 2-3% probably,  which is a little different than 20ish% of every cluster like in the Horses.

Actually, no . . . according to FMWC, the Phalanxs are predominately Vehicle.  Which means more than a trinary unless you are giving every other branch a binary.  And IIRC, one of those was at 7 trinaries of strength.

[Colt Ward]

Equipment production has never been the problem for Clan strength.  Their bottleneck is the Sibko system's long lead time before you can replace active combat losses, otherwise they just replace training and Trial losses to maintain the status quo strength.  Besides, we are not talking about post Dominion War in the mid-60s.  I thought we were talking about during/after their integration with the FRR as the Jihad burns, the setting of which makes sense for them to produce multi-use Clan LB-5Xs instead of single purpose AC/5s.

Besides, the Dominion War period you cite the Bears are known to have supply disruptions because of their move.

[Hellraiser]

Actually, no . . . according to FMWC, the Phalanxs are predominately Vehicle.  Which means more than a trinary unless you are giving every other branch a binary.  And IIRC, one of those was at 7 trinaries of strength.

The quote I listed was directly from their description in FMWC under the GB touman in which it clearly lists them as Mechs, Infantry, and some tanks.  Nothing about them being mostly vehicles or no mechs but only infantry/BA as you said before.

That said, the specific cluster descriptions w/ symbols show tank in appearance which means at least 2 Trinaries & possibly more since it seems they in fact are a major portion of the cluster.  But at 2 tanks per point it still leaves room for plenty of mechs & still have the tanks outnumber them.

[Hellraiser]

Equipment production has never been the problem for Clan strength.  Their bottleneck is the Sibko system's long lead time before you can replace active combat losses, otherwise they just replace training and Trial losses to maintain the status quo strength.

I disagree.
The Sharks for example were able to bring massive #s of retired soldiers back on line during the Jihad.
I believe its the Cobras, IIRC, that have a large pool of reserve warriors just waiting for a slot to open up because they don't have enough equipment.
Vlad opened up massive slots for retired/testdowns in is reserve forces by promoting the reserves to front line after the Refusal War.
The Falcons had entire hidden sibkos of troops that were able to funnel into combat quickly.
Lets not even get into the Spirits, Exiles, or other limited resources clans that have very tiny toumans.
The # of applicants isn't the issue, its having the units to put them in which they don't so instead they have a very small, very elite, very technologically advanced military.

makes sense for them to produce multi-use Clan LB-5Xs instead of single purpose AC/5s.

As opposed to the MANY uses of variant AC ammo, and I don't mean FS special stuff.
There are plenty of ammo types for ACs that give them lots of variant uses above even LBX?

[Colt Ward]

Your citing the exceptions to the rule of sibko lead time?  Sharks and Cobras are outside the norm, Vlad opened up for second line troops from the testdowns because he did not have the bodies to put in the machines, and the Falcons pulling sibkos out the arse is a joke.

The Warden Wolves touman is small because they lacked large volumes of replacement warriors.  They put Omnis into storage.  The Spirits touman shrunk because they must have units that perfectly match the organizational strength.  The small toumans were not because they could not make or graduate more warriors, sibko production was generally engineered to replace internal and external Trial personnel losses.

As for the variant AC ammo . . . sure, you might need Flak (oh cluster handles this) ammo for sweeping the skies, but incendiary?  flechette?  Not for the Clan paradigm.

[Derv]

The bears could also just take a page from history and convert the Vedette chassis to a tank destroyer/munitions hauler ala the Hotchkiss H35.

After all, those munitions wont carry themselves, and a Vedette chassis is far superior to a J-27.

[Matti]

Is Vedette really worst tank out there? Worse than Scorpion, Galleon, or Striker? I can't agree. It's also faster than Goblin and Bulldog, and nearly just 2/3 of Bulldog's price. So line up tracked tanks, highlight those with cruise speed 5, compare their weapons, armour, and prices. Vedette might not be winner nor better than Myrmidon, but it sure competes with fusion powered Hunter.

Uses of Vedette: surely it can do something more thank kill peasants and drop helicopters. Let's consider little broader scope than beloved tactical level scenarios with 30 meters per hex. Could Vedette perform role of cruise tank? Cruise tank: british classification for fast tank that breaks through enemy frontline and attacks communications & logistical centers (doesn't attack frontline itself, that job belongs to PBI and slower & tougher infantry support tanks). Certainly some hovercrafts could be better at that, like Scimitar and Condor. Or...?

Or how about back up for 'Mechs of similar speed? Mercenary's Handbook has Wilson's Hussars recon lance with Locust, Stinger, Wasp, and Ostroc. What's the point of slow Ostroc in otherwise fast recon lance? How about this: light 'Mechs do the recon to find enemy. When enemy is found, Ostroc goes at it along with company's worth of employer's Vedettes, and game scenario starts from there. Maybe not as powerful as Rifleman and Goblin company, but certainly faster.

Mixing with other vehicles... Would make fair match with Hunter. Both have equal speeds and motive systems, Hunters fire at range, and Vedettes cover LRM minimum range. Myrmidon could be better, but it's not available in Succession Wars.

[Matti]

By the rules, Vedette has four crewmen. Driver, gunner, commander... what would 4th be?

[Weirdo]

Small child. Nothing gets a tank moving across a continent like the incessant whine of "Are we there yet?".

[ANS Kamas P81]

By the rules, Vedette has four crewmen. Driver, gunner, commander... what would 4th be?

Loader or second gunner, for the forward MG perhaps.

[Fallen_Raven]

By the rules, Vedette has four crewmen. Driver, gunner, commander... what would 4th be?

That's Steve. He makes the coffee.

[chanman]

Bow machine gunner. Most WW2 tanks had 5 crewmen for that reason.

[Matti]

Bow machine gunner.

How does Scorpion make do with just 2 crewmembers? ::)

[Moonsword]

Because for all the crap aspects of the design, it apparently has reasonable automation features to reduce the crew to a gunner and a driver.

[chanman]

How does Scorpion make do with just 2 crewmembers? ::)

They control some of the functions with their feet. Clearly.

[glitterboy2098]

They control some of the functions with their feet. Clearly.

Cabooose: "why are there 3 pedals if there are only 4 directions?"

[Baldur Mekorig]

 Strange that no one talked about the fuel cell version. I fell in love with the variant the moment i saw it.

[Colt Ward]

I think the problem with the FCE version, if I remember correctly, was all the crazy stuff that came with it.  If we just put a FCE in the old AC/5 or LB-5X one, I would be all in favor.  Maybe even mout a MML in the turret.

[Neufeld]

Strange that no one talked about the fuel cell version. I fell in love with the variant the moment i saw it.

Even if it mounts a Bombast Laser?!  :o

[Gryphon]

Pull the bombast at a depot and replace it with something more palatable then, like a PPC or even an ERLL if you can find a way to spend the additional ton you get back. Strangely, I bet you don't have a real problem with that idea...

Then mount the laser on a Indymech for something non-combat oriented, on a vehicle where it makes more sense (note that in my honest opinion the Bombast Laser NEVER makes any sense at all...), or on a wall to really surprise the crap out of someone when they get really, really close! Or maybe as a fixed fire starter, thought I can't make that tactic work in my head without scads of petroleum agents sitting around in tanks ready to see use like in the movies...

Honestly, when Battletech started, fusion was "right around the corner" as the next best thing. Now, fuel cells are that next big thing. I have no issues with a sudden swath of FCE conventional vehicles being introduced. After all, man needs water to survive, so anywhere you find man, you find water. petroleum on the other hand isn't guaranteed to be all that universal, so in many places, cracking water for fuel makes more sense than digging it out of the ground, refining it to a multitude of grades, and only then shipping it interstellar distances.