Author Topic: Interstellar Operations Open Beta Test: Creating A Force: Discussion  (Read 107862 times)

Acolyte

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Which was a response to my pleading for an alternate system, which he had shot down. He's agreed to add a sentence admitting that RATS exist, not to actually support their use in creation.

Take a closer look at the person he was responding to, please. It wasn't you. It seems quite possible that the option of RAT's will appear in the optional creation rules.

   - Shane
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion
It is by the coffee that my thoughts acquire speed
My teeth acquire stains
The stains become a warning
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.

Crunch

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Sorry for misidentifying the quote. The point stands. The only support Cray is willing to offer for any non Cbill system is "You have our permission to write it yourself."

That seems like a bad choice to me, but what the heck do I know. Its all right Catalyst will still get my money for Leviathans and Sprawl Gangers, I'm just frankly disappointed that after waiting this long for a unit creation system this is all they'll give us. I won't be buying IO if this is the only creation system included and that's disappointing to me as IO and the creation system were eagerly awaited around my house.
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It's really, it's a very, very beautiful poem to giant monsters. Giant monsters versus giant robots.
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Acolyte

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Sorry for misidentifying the quote. The point stands. The only support Cray is willing to offer for any non Cbill system is "You have our permission to write it yourself."

That seems like a bad choice to me, but what the heck do I know. Its all right Catalyst will still get my money for Leviathans and Sprawl Gangers, I'm just frankly disappointed that after waiting this long for a unit creation system this is all they'll give us. I won't be buying IO if this is the only creation system included and that's disappointing to me as IO and the creation system were eagerly awaited around my house.

That is too bad..... Maybe the problem is that we've only got the first iteration of the rules in beta format. We have no idea what changes or suggestions have been taken heart at all so we have to rely upon supposition based on things we've read in the thread. It may be that he's got a RAT based alternate rules system all ready to go but we don't know it.

Here would be my suggestion:
1. roll for budget.
2. pick a RAT and roll on it
3. Subtract either the cost of the unit (if known) or the generic cost.
4. Rinse, repeat until you're done.
5. Roll skill randomly for each unit.
6. Proceed as per IO standard rules for the rest of the unit.

Now, the GM or group would have to step in to determine which RAT's could be used. It could be only one faction or maybe a percentage could come from others, especially those factions you're fighting and presumably savaging from. Again, depends on era. In the Star League Mark 1 you'd probably salvage each unit to break down for parts only and rely on factories for replacements, for example.

Just my thoughts.
   - Shane
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion
It is by the coffee that my thoughts acquire speed
My teeth acquire stains
The stains become a warning
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.

wellspring

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That is too bad..... Maybe the problem is that we've only got the first iteration of the rules in beta format. We have no idea what changes or suggestions have been taken heart at all so we have to rely upon supposition based on things we've read in the thread. It may be that he's got a RAT based alternate rules system all ready to go but we don't know it.

Here would be my suggestion:
1. roll for budget.
2. pick a RAT and roll on it
3. Subtract either the cost of the unit (if known) or the generic cost.
4. Rinse, repeat until you're done.
5. Roll skill randomly for each unit.
6. Proceed as per IO standard rules for the rest of the unit.

Now, the GM or group would have to step in to determine which RAT's could be used. It could be only one faction or maybe a percentage could come from others, especially those factions you're fighting and presumably savaging from. Again, depends on era. In the Star League Mark 1 you'd probably salvage each unit to break down for parts only and rely on factories for replacements, for example.

Just my thoughts.
   - Shane

This is, essentially, the proposal I made back in reply 233 of this thread. Cray vetoed the idea, so I left it at that, but it's worth reviewing since it's come up again.

The idea is to have a few archetypal RATs from key eras and factions. You pick one as your primary and roll your force from that, plus (optionally) one secondary RAT for a small proportion of your force. This simulates things like a Lyran merc force with a lot of Draconis salvage, for example. You may substitute an era-appropriate variant of the same mech for a slight penalty. Custom mechs and those not on a RAT take an even larger penalty, but it lets you get exactly what you want.

I worked out that nine new RATs (plus the 13 already in TW) could give you quite a bit of variety. Those cover the vast majority of cases; pickier players can use any published RAT for greater fine-tuning. And any situation that that doesn't cover can be handled by the player bypassing the default rules and simply choosing the units he wants. (It's worth mentioning that one of the objections to using RATs is that they weren't universal enough to cover every possible faction and permutation; however, looking at the force operation rules, it seems like they're primarily focused on IS merc and great house units. Players trying to operate Clan or Deep Periphery units are already going to have to make some tweaks.)

The primary limiting factor I proposed wasn't C-bill purchase price, it was monthly maintenance cost, which they'd have to figure out in any case and which better fits with running and expanding your force later. Lottery winners often ask themselves "What can I buy?" and go bankrupt, whereas if you're smart you look at the support costs over time and ask yourself "What can I support/sustain?"

Like I said, it went over like a lead blimp.

Regarding the "purchase price vs generic costs" issue, I'm not so worried about that. The problems seem to come when you try to use both systems to set up an opportunity for arbitrage. Each option alone will create somewhat-odd/somewhat-canon forces (hence my proposed changes) but while there are oddities and differences, they aren't all that disruptive.

What about tech teams? There was a great conversation up-thread about it that kind of petered out. Has anything been decided on that score?
« Last Edit: 22 March 2013, 16:18:21 by wellspring »

Acolyte

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The major difference is that I don't propose to have any RAT's in IO. These would be from other books. My assumption is that if you're interested in a certain faction or time, then you'll have the sourcebooks for that, along with any RAT's you need. As for price, ya you're going to have to pick either actual price or generic and stick to that for all the rolls otherwise some 'Mechs will be cheap and others won't.

Other than that, there isn't much difference with the standard form of making your unit. All it really does is tell you which units you're buying.

As per maintenance, we've got a ruling! Once per week if nothing bad happens. This means that if you have a Union, fully loaded with Asault 'Mechs and Heavy AeroSpace Fighters, you've got 20.5 hours per week of maintenance to do. That's with one squad, with the two you can carry in a union, it's 10.25 hours per week per squad.

With this in mind, maybe the optimal number of support personnel needs to be addressed?

   - Shane
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion
It is by the coffee that my thoughts acquire speed
My teeth acquire stains
The stains become a warning
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.

SCC

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The reason that an outside source is acceptable for C-Bills and not for RAT's is that somebody can get the C-Bill cost very easily through the MUL, where as what RAT's exist are in books players may not have access to, IF a RAT exists for that faction/time period combination. Anyway RAT based force construction is already covered in StratOps, why should it be covered again?

You really shouldn't mix C-Bil and RAT based construction but, if a player goes over budget because of a random roll it rather unfair

Acolyte

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The reason that an outside source is acceptable for C-Bills and not for RAT's is that somebody can get the C-Bill cost very easily through the MUL, where as what RAT's exist are in books players may not have access to, IF a RAT exists for that faction/time period combination. Anyway RAT based force construction is already covered in StratOps, why should it be covered again?

You really shouldn't mix C-Bil and RAT based construction but, if a player goes over budget because of a random roll it rather unfair

That's all fine. The suggestion was for an alternate, optional system, not the major one. In terms of C-Bills vs RAT's, you are rolling on a certain weight level, on a RAT that you are familiar with, so you should have an idea as to a rough cost. If you go over, then welcome to debt! Better get a contract.

   - Shane
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion
It is by the coffee that my thoughts acquire speed
My teeth acquire stains
The stains become a warning
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.

SCC

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But the chances of getting a well rounded force are slim, there could and likely IS a lot of cost variation within a weight range and while such a force set up might work in pickup games it's likely not going to end well on a campgain

Acolyte

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I'm just presenting it as an option. I still like the standard way cray's written and that's the way I'll be making my forces.

   - Shane
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion
It is by the coffee that my thoughts acquire speed
My teeth acquire stains
The stains become a warning
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.

doulos05

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I'm confused, if you're using generic prices, why not use generic equipment also? Put a line in there like

"If using generic prices, you may select your unit or roll on the appropriate RAT."

But I don't think that's what Crunch is actually looking for.
I mean, it's not like once you having something in low Earth orbit you can stick a gassy astronaut on the outside after Chili Night and fart it anywhere in the solar system.

Crunch

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I'm confused, if you're using generic prices, why not use generic equipment also? Put a line in there like

"If using generic prices, you may select your unit or roll on the appropriate RAT."

But I don't think that's what Crunch is actually looking for.

I've pretty much given up.
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It's really, it's a very, very beautiful poem to giant monsters. Giant monsters versus giant robots.
G. Del Toro

Atlas3060

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As stated by people higher than I, this thread is locked.
Thank you for your input.  [copper]
It's not about winning or losing, no it's all about how many chapters have you added to the rule books after your crazy antics.